Shot my first batch of FWFL this week

[Blackwater]

Used it on some Lee 45-230-TC's and gave them to a buddy to try in his new Springfield .45 auto. Lube worked well, and that was at 1010 fps. with 7.0 gr. Unique - mighty fast for a .45 auto. The book (Lyman #47) said 7.3 with the 225 cast RN's, but he's backing off a mite. Had initially tried 6.8 gr. Unique, with that bullet, but it seemed pretty mild. Also shot some 7.2 gr. with some store bought 200 LRNFP's. He'll probably stick with the 7.2 gr. on the 200's, which went 1065 fps., but 1010 fps indicates he's in at least +P territory, I think, with the 230's.

The FWFL worked very well with the WW alloy 230's. .45's don't have the deepest rifling, but the alloy worked well and there was no leading whatsoever - easy to check in a .45 barrel. I was impressed with it.

Tell me this, though, is it "slick" enough to account for at least SOME of that 1010 fps. with the 230 gr. LTC's? I've seen many max. loads for the ACP showing 920 to as much as 980 fps., but never anything at 1010 fps. No pressure signs, but of course you wouldn't expect any at only 18-22,000 psi., normal to +P pressures in the ACP.

Also, has anyone noted Unique to produce big jumps in vel. and pressure with a small increase (from 6.8 to 7.0) in powder charge? I never have, and have always found Unique to be wonderfully predictable.

I shot tons of the old and now no longer recommended ACP load of 8.0 gr. Unique with a 190-200 gr. LSWC some 30 years ago, and I know the "new" Unique and 2400 are supposed to be just a mite faster burning, but .... DANG! That's a lot of velocity for a 230 in the ACP. Any thoughts?

And Felix, thanks for makin' us up a darn good lube recipe. Will likely try it in rifles next, ASAP.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Ok, so I'm a bit slow tonight, FWFL?

[David R]

Mick,

Felix Wonder Lube. See the "sticky" in the top of the Cast Boolits forum.

Blackwater,
I have shot 7.5 grains of Unique under a 200 grain, but won't do it again. Had marks on the primer I could see the gun was unlocking while the firing pin was still in the primer. Not good.

David

[Bass Ackward]

Tell me this, though, is it "slick" enough to account for at least SOME of that 1010 fps. with the 230 gr. LTC's?

Also, has anyone noted Unique to produce big jumps in vel. and pressure with a small increase (from 6.8 to 7.0) in powder charge? I never have, and have always found Unique to be wonderfully predictable.




I have never had that problem with Unique. But I have never used it in that case. The secret to powder performance / consistency depends so much on the pressure range for which it is used. Change the conditions and different results can be obtained. But that platform is not a good one for testing top end and pushing the envelope. IMO.

Lube can account for the velocity increase. But you need to be careful because barrel heat can deterorate lube performance rapidly. That's why the old addage to work your loads up in hot weather came about. I don't play with automatics anymore, but when I did, I fired several rounds of conservative stuff to heat up the barrel and then chrono'd it. Sometimes this can be well above what you would expect.

It's not just the quality of the lube, but the mix / barrel combination that is the wild card. And if you start to lead during a shooting span, then pressures can go up too. If your cleaning regimine is NOT to clean you can also run into problems. Just so you understand.

I am afraid I would not recommend +P loads in an automatic unless they jacketed. And not even then probably based on my idea of the purpose of the gun.

[StarMetal]

I've shot Unique for almost 40 yrs, no problems with it, especially what you described.

I think whose ever chrono you use is probably on the high side. Don't take chrono reading for the gospel unless you have a have the expensive and accurate one from the big "O" manufacture.

Joe

[carpetman]

4 fingermick---FWFBL?----That is Felix World Famous Bullet Lube. You can go to www.castpics.net and get the recipe. In fact that recipe was a big part of the reason the castpics site was started---to prevent having to post the recipe so often. FWF(EA)BL???????????Felix World Famous( Except Australia) Bullet Lube.

[Ron]

Carpetman, ( EA) dosn't work for me, I made my first batch of Felix lube some months back and used it for the first time last weekend in competition. This was the first comp I had shot my Glock 34 in and the FWFL performed up to expectations in the 9mm. Good accurate rounds and no leading of the barrel.

Regards,

Ron.
Skye,
Melbourne,
AUSTRALIA!!!!!!!!!

FESTINA LENTE

[Blackwater]

Thanks for the comments and observations, guys. He chrono'd them again today, and got nearly identical results, about 1005 fps. avg. for 4 shots and consistent in velocity (ES @ 15). I'll take my Pact and check his readings this week.

The cases didn't show any evidence of the firing pin drag, or any other evidence of early opening. I was just surprised at the velocity with that load, and not just a little concerned. I'm familiar with what can happen with an overloaded .45.

Some 25-30 years ago, I shot a pretty good bit of the old 8.0 gr. Unique with 190's and 200 LSWC's, and my gun never hickuped. Even got a 22 lb. spring and a Bar-Sto I think it was, recoil buffer that had the spring and plunger in the short recoil spring guide. It'd fire some darn heavy loads, but I didn't want to batter the frame and quit that silliness. I had a .44 for heavier loads.

That old 8.0 gr. Unique load was questioned from the beginning by some, but few listened to the nay sayers. I never heard of a gun damaged by it, but as time went on, I got wiser (if only slowly and by degrees) and got a softball spring and shot a lot of 700-X with those same 190-200 SWC's.

Now his gun's giving 1065 with a 200 cast with only 7.2 gr. Unique. That's a lot of change, and maybe this "new" version of Unique really IS a lot "hotter" than the "old" Unique I'm so used to. That's all I can think of.

The cases don't eject with noticably more gusto than 230 gr. factories, so I'm just kinna' stymied, and don't really know what to advise my buddy. That's not a good place to be!

We never chronied the 6.8 gr. Unique load (only .2 gr. less) that seemed mild, and didn't kick the cases out with as much authority as the 230 Golden Saber factories, so maybe I need to chrono that 6.8 gr. load again? I dunno. Won't hurt, for sure.

He was looking to get maybe 900 with those 230's, and was as surprised as I was when that 1010 fps. avg. showed up.

Ain't this pursuit interesting? I don't think there's any danger here, from the preponderance of the evidence. It's POSSIBLE that it's a good load that somehow just happens to run a little fast, BUT .... I've learned that I SHOULD look gift horses in the mouth when they come my way. Ain't much "free" in this world, and any velocities over what's shown as max in the books causes me much concern. The load is shooting really well. He's having to reacquaint himself with that double shuffle recoil, which throws him off sometimes, but he's getting back in the groove quickly now.

Will just have to do all the requisite homework on the matter, and investigate thoroughly. Will chrono both the 6.8 and 7.0 loads, and fire some factories again and see if the cases eject any differently. That can be a good indication of potential battering of the frame. His recoil spring is straight stock, as is the rest of his Spfld. gun.

This one's going to require MUCH more evaluation than most loads. Wonder how they got to use 7.3 gr. with the 225 gr. LRN? The bearing surface should be very close to the same, and my ACWW alloy surely can't be adding pressure. Those 225's in Lyman #47 were of #2 alloy, which is harder. Curious indeed!

[Bass Ackward]

This one's going to require MUCH more evaluation than most loads. Wonder how they got to use 7.3 gr. with the 225 gr. LRN? The bearing surface should be very close to the same, and my ACWW alloy surely can't be adding pressure. Those 225's in Lyman #47 were of #2 alloy, which is harder. Curious indeed!



This was my real concern. When running top pressures, softer lead will throw more pressure than hard lead. And it only goes up from there if the barrel starts to lead.

If loads are developed under ideal conditions and then leading starts, you can be in trouble. Or the next batch of WW has more of the pure lead weights in them and your bullets come out a little softer yet. Or you decide to try 1000 rounds before cleaning. In this case, you would be safer with water dropped WW to tell you the truth.

[David R]

I did load 7.2 in the BD45CM. Here are my notes.


Same boolit ahed of 7.2 grains of Unique. Shot well with just a little verticle stringing. Shot great out of the officers model, but still hard to hang on to.


If you would like, I will load a few with 7 grains of NEW unique and see what I get for V.

David

[carpetman]

Ron---I knew that FWFBL was also well known and famous in Australia---even the aborigines in the remote outback use it. Just didn't want to hurt Ol Micks feelings.

[BruceB]

Just one of the great things about the .45 ACP is its wonderful flexibility as far as boolits and powders are concerned.

After loading the cartridge intensively for 39 years (I have over 3000 cast-boolit rounds loaded-up right now....better start doing more shooting!), I have come back to "Square One", standardizing on the Lyman 452374 roundnose at the factory-duplication speed of 830 fps, and there are MANY powders which will give me this performance without any fuss whatever. 231 happens to be what I'm using right now. but I have used a lot of Unique, Bullseye, 230P, etc etc in the past. I carry Hydrashok 230s for CCW, and the cast load above is a perfect understudy for practice and plinking. It works flawlessly in four different pistols.

Unique demonstrated a clear tendency to leading with cast bullets in my earlier research, particularly in a couple of 9x19s. I had read about this in an article of the day (circa 1970), and switched to Herco, which was DRAMATICALLY better. Where the linotype 9mms leaded heavily with Unique, they shot absolutely clean with Herco at the same speeds with no other changes. Back in the '70s, in the early days of expanding-bullet technology for handguns, Speer's handbook had a 9mm Parabellum load of 7.0 Herco under their 125-grain jacketed-softpoint, which gave 1330 fps from a 4" Model 39 S&W! This recipe worked very well in our Brownings, and the velocity figure agreed with my findings on my break-the-paper-screens Custom Chronograph. This performance is amazingly close to the 125-grain .357 Magnum from a revolver, and it was over 30 years ago!! Carrying fourteen of those in a Hi-Power is like having TWO 7-round .357 revolvers on yer hip(s). Hmmm...maybe I should re-visit that load with some MODERN JHPs.

I've been using some Unique in rifle loads in the more recent past, even including some loads in the .416 Rigby, and although it hasn't been really extensive work so far, I expect there's some more enjoyable experimenting to be done. I have NOT noticed any tendencies toward leading in the rifles. Great stuff, very predictable and easy to work with.

[StarMetal]

BruceB,

Gosh, I've been shooting Unique for about that number of years and in 45 acps and long colts. In fact my favorite load for the long colt is the RCBS 255 SWC over 9.0 grs of Unique. I've shot target and heavy loads using Unique in the 45 acp. In addition to those two calibers I've used it alot in the 38 spcl, 357 mag, and 9mm. Currently I'm using it in my 30 Luger..oh and my 32 acp. Never have I had any leading because of it. I find that amazing you say that. I tried Herco in my 45's and didn't like it, it's ok. I know alot of 45 shooters, especially long colt love Red Dot. In fact I think 7.0 grs of Red Dot with 250/255 grs 45 long colt bullets is Mike Venturino's favorite long colt load. Me, I like a powder that fills that big case up a tad more, like Unique. I don't think they could have given Unique a better name.

Joe

[felix]

Bruce and Joe, I find that (old) Unique is/was especially load sensitive, as opposed to Herco. However, Herco required Plus P pressures to burn correctly enough for the job. The next time Unique is considered, try Universal Clays. The next time Herco is considered, try 4756. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Felix

I've shot alot of Universal Clays in both my 45 acps and Long Colts. Here's what I found with it in the Long Colt. First that powder is pretty dang close to Unique in burning rate. Second it burns pretty clean too, but so does the new Unique, maybe not quite as clean as Universal. I have a Smith Model 25 in Long Colt with 8 3/8 barrel. With that RCBS 255 SWC I speak often about, it's an extremely accurate gun. Substituting Universal for my Unique load, and firing over a chrono to get the same velocity with the two powders (and by the way the loads are almost identical in weight) my accuracy goes south with the Universal. I can't figure out why.

Joe

[felix]

Joe, perhaps a primer swap. Ignition is everything! ... felix

[BruceB]

I agree with both of you fellers.

The only .45 ACP Herco loads that worked for me were well up into the +P+ neighborhood, and it does take some pressure to get it burning well. Beyond a few early tests with Herco in .45 ACP, I haven't used it at all in the short fat cartridge. In the 9mm, of course, pressures often run almost double those of the .45 ACP and Herco does excellent work for me in the 9mm.

Red Dot is a real gem for handgun loading, and I've just finished my latest 8-pound keg of the stuff. I've been dithering about ordering another keg, or just buying by-the-pound in the local stores....the price difference really isn't much, once the shipping for a keg is added-in.

Strangely enough, I hadn't used Unique in decades for anything at all, until just last year, when 'Vince in MO' asked me about using it in the .416 Rigby for REALLY reduced loads. How can a feller turn down such an INTERESTING question??? So...off to the store, and back with some Unique. No doubt, it'll sneak into a few handgun cases since I have it in stock again.

I really wish Hodgdon hadn't used such a stupidly-similar list of names for such a range of different powders, as they did in the "Clays" series. Just that simple factor, the possibility of confusion among the names, has absolutely prevented me from using any of the group. There are enough other powders around, whose identities are not subject to confusion, that I'm happy without using any of the Clays series.

[StarMetal]

Bruce

Boy you're right about the Clays name. The bad think is that one Clays is damn near fast as Bullseye and another like Unique and to boot they look the same.

Joe

[slughammer]

Thanks for the comments and observations, guys. He chrono'd them again today, and got nearly identical results, about 1005 fps. avg. for 4 shots and consistent in velocity (ES @ 15). I'll take my Pact and check his readings this week.


I've seen 5" 1911's exibit an easy 50fps spread on average velocity while using the same ammo and chrono. Perhaps your friend has a barrel that is on the fast side.

Universal Clays gave me 100fps extreme spread in 45acp (1911). Using Win LP primers. Noise level was also much higher than same speed ammo with faster powders. I just don't think the pressure range of 45acp is right for the best results with Universal Clays.

[Blackwater]

Well, fellas, the problem for my buddy may be solved as of this morning. He couldn't sleep and got up and went to a stand, and just sat down by a pine. Before he got settled in good, a spindly 8-pointer of @ 170 lb. came out and looked around. He still had his rifle against the tree he was leaning against, and the deer was so close that any attempt to get to his rifle would have spooked the deer, and he'd be gone before he'd have gotten his hand on his rifle. Therefore, and this is EXACTLY the scenario he bought the pistol for, he just eased the pistol very slowly and silently out of his shoulder holster, cocked it (he carries in condition 2 because the safety's too loud for a close in shot at a deer), and the deer must have heard the sear hit the full cock notch. It was a very short shot. The deer was facing him and he fired, aiming for a high heart shot, but the deer tried to spin around and vacate the premises just as the trigger was breaking, and the bullet took him in the left shoulder, breaking it, and then angled slightly upward (the deer was obviously leaning heavily as it spun around, or tried to) and broke the spine. Needlessly to say, the deer went down and only twitched a few times.

That was with one of the 6.8 gr. rounds, too, so I don't think he's going to be loading any more at 7.0 gr. with THAT kind of performance! Who'd a'thunk it? A big heavy bullet at decent velocity killin' a deer like that? :wink:

I'm still a bit stymied by this. The 7.0 gr. loads don't eject any differently than the 230 gr. Golden Sabres, which are not +P loads. The 6.8 gr. loads were noted to eject significantly less enthusiastically (though still sufficiently) than the Golden Sabres.

I've put some more thought into this, and though I didn't THINK the 230 TC's were seated any deeper than the 230 RN's, I am now thinking I may be wrong about that. It wouldn't be by a lot, but maybe that was enough, along with the softer alloy acting to up pressure as well. Just a guess, but that's where I'm leaning now, anyway. I don't like pressing the 1911 frame, and with the 6.8 gr. load doing what it did, there's just no need to load a load that makes one queasy, any time. There wasn't that much difference in accuracy, and with a long layoff since he last owned an ACP, he's still getting back in the groove with that double shuffle recoil.

BTW, if it helps anyone here, that 230 Lee TC needs to be seated in his gun with case mouth right up next to the beginning of the taper of the coned nose. Feeds and functions great, but seat it the least bit too long and the nose hits the barrel extension that fits into the top of the frame.

I shoot an aluminum framed Kimber 4 incher, so I'll be conservative in working loads up for that less sturdy frame.

I really do like this 230 TC. If it'll do that to a deer, it should serve for CCW or whatever comes down the pike, maybe short of sasquatches and bison herds. Sure makes the 1911 into a really viable short range deer getter, THAT much is now assured! My buddy tried an ACP on deer years ago, but the bullets available either expanded too quickly or not at all. This 230 TC, and probably any FP 200 too, makes the ol' slabside into a credible and capable deer getter. My buddy's sure sold on it. RAscal will be pestering me to cast some more for him any day now!

[David R]

Verry glad to hear that!

David