another "help me pick a gun" thread

[compass will]

Here is my requirements: Bolt action. I want to use it for cast boolet bench rest matches as well as maybe getting started in high power silhouette.

I first started thinking about a mil surplus gun, but by the time I get something decent, then add a scope mount, trigger, etc I will be looking at more of an investment then I want to make at this point.

so I need to ask this group of combined wisdom what you think of the Weatherby Vanguard synthetic?

The Weatherby is advertised at $399 (which fits the budget) would you recommend something different? I think only Stevens comes comes close to that price.

Now the harder part, what caliber? It has to be 6mm or larger for the silhouette matches. I have heard a lot of guys recommend the 7mm 08 for silhouette.

7mm-08
308
30-06
257 wby
279 wsm
7mm rem
300 win
300 wsm
300 wby

Thanks!
Compass Will

[Bob Krack]

Now the harder part, what caliber? It has to be 6mm or larger for the silhouette matches. I have heard a lot of guys recommend the 7mm 08 for silhouette.
7mm-08
308
30-06
257 wby
279 wsm
7mm rem
300 win
300 wsm
300 wby
Thanks!
Compass Will
Will,
You will be hard pressed to beat the first 3 on your list. Personally, I think very highly of the .308. There WILL be many many more opinions to follow.

Vic

[9.3X62AL]

Ditto on the "first 3 calibers" mentioned by V/I. I might narrow it down to two, since there are MANY more cast boolit designs available in 30 caliber than in 7mm.

308 vs. 30-06........whoo, boy. Both are accurate as can be, the 30-06 has a bit longer neck and can do better work with jacketed bullets over 180 grains as a hunting round--but for target shooting I don't think there's a lot of difference.

The Weatherby Vanguard/Howa 1500 is a good rifle--I've had 2 of them, and both shot well. Look also at the Savage bolt rifles--they have a well-deserved reputation for fine accuracy at reasonable cost.

[Jack Stanley]

I agree with the first three calibers as well , pick the one you like . I started compition with a 788 chambered in .308 and when Remington made the 700 in lefty AND .308 I went to that . It has never disappointed me and from the looks of benchresters of old , they were happy with it too .

Jack

[compass will]

I called my dealer to see if this $399.00 Weatherby really does exist. He said "yes they do, but I want to show you a Weatherby varmit model, heavy barrel in .308 with a Kevlar stock, I think it will do you much better then the $399 version, and its less then a $100.00 upgrade".

Now I need to read the HP silhouette rules to see if the heavy barrel forces me into a different class where I end up shooting against high dollar guns made from unobtanium.

[compass will]

The Weatherby Vanguard/Howa 1500 is a good rifle--I've had 2 of them, and both shot well.

Does this mean that the Weatherby Vanguard is really a Howa like those imported by Legacy International? My dealer sells a ton of Legacy stuff. In fact my Brass receiver Puma 1892 is a Legacy model. I was looking at them, but an older guy that I shot lever action matches with (who does a little gun smithing for his friends) said the barrel is metric which might limit my choices when it comes time to change it.
Is this really true, or even a problem?

[Scrounger]

Does this mean that the Weatherby Vanguard is really a Howa like those imported by Legacy International? My dealer sells a ton of Legacy stuff. In fact my Brass receiver Puma 1892 is a Legacy model. I was looking at them, but an older guy that I shot lever action matches with (who does a little gun smithing for his friends) said the barrel is metric which might limit my choices when it comes time to change it.
Is this really true, or even a problem?

Howa makes Vanguards for Weatherby, same gun, higher price. I don't know if Howa uses metric threads or not, but any gunsmith worthy of the name won't have a problem with metric threads. My guess is that Howa simply copied the threads from the 1892 Winchester.

Unless they changed the rules recently, they don't care how big around or how long your barrel is, but the gun AND the scope and mounts must weigh no more than ten pounds and two ounces. And you might as well get used to it now, you WILL be shooting against guns that cost ten times as much as yours. Some of the people in the game have scads of money, and if they happen to win, then everyone else tries to copy their equipment. One of them, David Tubbs is a great shooter. I am convinced he would win as often with an over the counter rifle like you are contemplating, but he is an oilman, has lots of money and lots of time to practice and try new gadgets, which are then put on the market for others to buy. I personally don't think they help him or anyone else very much, but I think he get's a psychological advantage with what he does. In the final analysis, it is 95% shooter's ability, and the better equipment may make up that last tiny difference. Until you are hitting 80% of your targets, I wouldn't worry about upgrading equipment.
Did you know there are two disciplines of big bore silhouette? Because of the equipment race and people dropping out because of the high cost, they started a new class called Hunting Rifle. The weight limit is lower, nine pounds I think, and the power of the scope is also limited. And if I remember correctly, the weight of pull of the trigger is limited, two or two and a half pounds. It is supposed to be straight out of the box, all factory equipment except a recoil pad can be added and the trigger adjusted within their legal limits. And once again big money reared it's ugly head and one or two manufacturers just happened to bring out some factory models that just happened to be what someone wanted and still meet the specs for the game. All shooting disciplines are like that because of the competitive nature of shooters. You will decide to live with it or quit. Have fun.

[runfiverun]

don't forget the 7x57 for that list.
but i think for a first time cast rifle the 308 is the ticket.

[compass will]

Thanks for the help everyone. Sounds like I am on track here. First I need to find out about the rules. It looks like the gun has to weigh under 10 lbs 2 oz so I need to weigh my scope and mount, then the gun I am looking at and see if the heavy barrel even will fit under the 10 lbs 2 oz rule.

[Scrounger]

Sometimes you have to take some wood out of the stock, leave out the magazine box if you can, get the lightest scope and mounts you can to make weight. Generally synthetic stocks are lighter.

Here is a link to the official NRA rules: http://www.vc4hss.com/Air_Rifle/info_docs/NRA_Rifle_Silhouette_Rules.pdf

[GrizzLeeBear]

Here is another good source and a forum for smallbore and HP silhouette.
Do some reading through the forums for some good info.

www.steelchickens.com

Yes there are 2 classes.

HUNTER RIFLE
9# max. weight including scope
tapered barrels only - NO bull or varmint barrels allowed

SILHOUETTE RIFLE
10# 2 oz. weight limit including scope

I think both classes have a barrel length limit of 26" and no limit on scope power.
The most popular calibers are .260, 6.5x55 and 7mm-08. Silhouettes is a game of balancing enough power to reliably knock down the rams at 500m but low enough recoil to not beat up the shooter up for 40 - 80 rounds. Short actions are the norm to try and keep the weight of the gun down to allow more weight for the scope, especially in Hunter class. The .308 is seen by most as the top end (and a bit too much by some). I haven't shot rifle sillywets for a few years, but I shot a .308 for a couple years and did pretty well with it, so don't be afraid to use one, especially if you want to shoot cast boolits with it. Lots of good molds in .30 cal.
Cast boolits can be done, but your scope is gonna have to be a good one that will track well and have lots of adjustment available as you move the elevation between target. Even with jacketed bullets you will have to move the elevation between targets if you want to do well.
I don't know anything about the Vanguard, but I would seriously look at the Savage Stevens (in either 7mm-08 or .308). They go for around $300 and I have seen a lot of really good reviews on them. Put a good scope on it and a little polishing on the trigger (you can always replace it later wit a SSS or Rifle Basix) and your ready to shoot some steel.
If your rifle will shoot MOA the rest is up to you.

[Bullshop Junior]

steevens 200 7/08

[S.R.Custom]

Howa makes Vanguards for Weatherby, same gun, higher price. I don't know if Howa uses metric threads or not...

They do... I rechambered a Vanguard .223 to .223 AI, and my gunsmith & I discovered the threads are indeed metric.

The Howa/Weatherby Vanguard is a fine rifle; mine shot in the threes out of the box with my best handloads... :-D

But I digress... If I were to build a cast bullet rifle for accuracy & economy, I'd buy one of those cheap Turkish Mauser actions and have my gunsmith buddy barrel it in .358 Winchester. (You do have a gunsmith buddy, right? ;) )

[Scrounger]

If memory serves me correctly, the first Howa made rifles thirty or so years ago, looked a lot like Sakos. If the Finns used metric threads, it is likely Howa copied them and is still using them. I thought the rebarreling reference was in regard to a Legacy Puma, made by Rossi, and I thought (think) its barrel threads are likely copied, as is the rest of the gun, from the 1892 Winchester. Pure speculation on my part.

[Heavy lead]

308, choice of rifles is up to you, there's a lot of pretty good ones out there. Too bad you couldn't find the Rem 700 Classic they made a few years ago in 8x57, now I'll be none of the competition would have that on the line.

[looseprojectile]

bought an Icon. Was around eight hundred. Shoots very small groups with just about any load. .308 .
Life is good

[joeb33050]

I've had 3 300WM rifles that shot cast very nicely. To my mind, headspacing on the belt keeps headspace from decreasing with light loads, and that is imporant with my 1500 fps loads.
joe b.