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JBinMN
12-30-2017, 08:17 PM
I have been testing new loads with different powders & boolits all this year, up until about a couple weeks ago. The last testing was done back when it was hovering around the 32F freezing point. I am hesitant on doing any more testing below that temp range due to a couple of reasons.

One is that I do not shoot outdoors as much during weather below 32F unless I am hunting. I have been hunting for about 45 years or so & have done so in mostly cold places, but shooting for fun I have usually limited myself to 32F plus temps. So, I have not had much need to do more than test for the firearms I use for hunting & not so much for "fun" firearms to shoot. I have experience in testing factory loads mostly for hunting, & not experienced as well in the effects cold can have on powders of different types & makers for other types of loads & ammo.

Another reason I have not been shooting for fun is that I do not have an inside range to shoot near me. ( Closest I know of is 50+ miles away, one way) This year we have relatively colder temps for this time of year and little snow cover where I live. The temps right now are highs of -5F & lows down to about -16 to -20F.. Shooting for "fun" means that any loads I have tested in higher temps "may" not be as good as when they were tested. I am tempted to do some ladder testing in these colder temps, but am curious as to what others think about it, and wonder what others may have to say to help out.

I know that some powders are "temperature sensitive", and as well & another concern I have is some of the firearms ( mostly handguns) I shoot for "fun", have what I call "plastic parts" ( "synthetic", I believe is the correct term) & I am concerned if they are up to the task in cold weather. Hate to break something in a firearm that is not up to the task when it is colder out. Another concern is dissimilar metal expansion & contraction & whether or not that was taken into consideration by the manufacturers when designing the firearms I shoot.

I have some loads I want to ladder test, but am somewhat hesitant, since I do not want to create any issues that I could prevent, or reduce the effect of them happening, were I to wait until it gets warmer. ( think dangerous conditions or costly breakage issues.) That is where the input from you folks will help out , IMO.

I am very curious to see if the same loads in cold weather compare well with those tested at warmer temps, just for the experience & load data for my own records.

Does anyone here feel like sharing some of their experiences in Cold Weather load testing & such?

I would appreciate anyones input on what might be things to be concerned about & to look for, as well as any techniques I may have not considered that are applicable to cold weather, where in warmer temps they would not be of much concern...

Thanks if you can help out!
:)

[ Note- I am not sure that I put this topic in the right forum. I hope so anyway.]

CIC
12-30-2017, 08:52 PM
I have nothing to add except burrrrrrrr! -5 for the high! That makes Southern Indiana seem like the tropics. Stay warm.

runfiverun
12-30-2017, 10:31 PM
if a gun won't shoot in the cold it ain't very useful.

pay attention to a few things while your out there, this would be a very good learning moment.
how good is the lube you use on your pistols?
how good is your boolit lube?
is your powder temp sensitive?
they make 0w-30 motor oil for a reason.

tazman
12-31-2017, 12:32 AM
I have tested my rifles in cold weather and found the loads they like cold were different than the ones they liked hot. Sometimes the differences were significant. It all depends on your individual rifle.
Test it and find out.
Don't expect loads you develop in cold weather to work in hot weather. In hot weather, they may be over pressure. I tried that once and blew the primers out of a couple of cases because the powder proved to be temperature sensitive. Didn't hurt the rifle but ruined the cases.

MUSTANG
12-31-2017, 01:07 AM
From a "Major Problem" area, it would be potential higher pressures taking a near max load tested for a "Cold Weather Load", and using it in the higher temps of Summer.

Another potential "Oddity" that hit me in this discussion is: What happens to Powder Coated/HiTek coated boolits in extreme Cold Weather? Years ago I discovered at the Marine Corps Mountain Warfare Center and Deployments in Norway that for temps at the Sub Zero (Farenheit) levels it would cause STU-III keys to shatter if they were exposed to shock such as being dropped on a hard surface. (A STU-III is a a Telephone with built in High Level encryption, there is a Black "Plastic" key with embedded microcircuits to enable the Secure Telephone to use the encryption). Just wonder what happens to the Polymers in a PC'd Boolit at -10, -20, or even -72 (Coldest Temp I have ever been in for a "Field Environment".?

azrednek
12-31-2017, 01:24 AM
Friend of mine learned about hot temperatures the hard way. We wound up cracking the slide on his Nazi marked WW2 P-38. Him and I split a deal on surplus 9MM. The ammo was either Swedish or Swiss surplus, can't remember which. We shot up plenty of it in cooler temps with no problems. On a hot, near 110 degree day my shootng bud just had to shoot his new toy. About the 4th or 5th shot the slide cracked. We shot up the remainder in a Blackhawk's 9 MM cylinder.

Can't say for certain and just speculation on my part. The ammo was made for colder climates and likely loaded hot for use in sub machine guns.

JBinMN
12-31-2017, 08:50 AM
Thanks for the help out so far!
:)

BTW, It was -41F with wind chill here yesterday morning at around 0800/ 8 AM. Balmy, eh?
;)

Anyway, Most of my handguns are steel, but the one I was most concerned about with the "polymer", "synthetic"....Well, "Plastic parts" is the missus Ruger LCR 357. It has that body that I would be concerned about cracking, or something similar, like what MUSTANG mentioned about the encrypted phone. The only other firearm I have that is mostly "plastic" is a HiPoint .380. Cheap enough though & with its warranty to have no issue with getting it fixed if it did break. Since the other handguns are all steel except for grips, IIRC, they should not be an issue for cold weather for the most part.

As far as boolit lube, I use 45/45/10 on some & pan lube with a homemade lube mix of Johnsons pastewax, paraffin from candles, vaseline & some other stuff.
I will keep an eye on how they work out.

For firearm lube, I have a few different oils/lubes I use. Hoppes gun oil sometimes, Rem. spray lube sometimes, among other lubes. All have been tested in colder weather than what we are now experiencing (down to -25 or more), so I am not too worried about them. Light coat is fine. BTW, I have also used powdered graphite a couple of times, in certain "wear" places, but not often.

As far as powders... I think I am going to email or call the makers of the powders I use & ask them directly about the temperature sensitivity of the ones I currently have & use. I would appreciate "personal experiences" though, and am hoping that some folks may post what they themselves have used as well. That was a big part of why I posted the topic. For the input of the vast experience of the members here. As some folks say, "the more the merrier.".
:)

I have been thinking about some other things in regard to temps & its' effects on powders...

The way I understand it, as Tazman mentioned, that loads worked up in colder temps may have issues with overpressure in higher temps. Now, when I think on that , I can understand expansion & contraction of materials due to cold thru warm/hot temps, but that brings me to ponder on a couple things...

If ya have 3.0 gr. of "Powder X" ( "X" being any powder) in a case & it is within the "specs" for a safe load in a cartridge per a load manual. how is it that there is a difference in that round regardless of when/where it was "loaded" & the temp where it is eventually fired? 3.0gr. is 3.0 grains. If it was loaded , either by a reloader or a factory & the temp was 68F inside the home, shop, or factory, why should it make a difference when it is 10F or 100F? What changed in the chemical makeup of that powder over the range of temps? If it were a "volume" expansion or contraction due to temps, would that not have been noticed & mentioned before by someone?

Additionally, why would it matter if the powder was loaded in 10F and fired in 100F or vice versa, if the powder amount of 3.0gr. remains the same? I do not recall seeing in a manual that one needs to adjust the powder amount due to temp ranges & sensitivity... Has anyone else read about it in one of their manuals? Why is there no "notice","caution" or"warning" on boxes of ammo stating that there is could be a difference in the pressures of the rounds inside the box if they are fired at any temp extreme? Maybe it really just doesn't matter all that much???

I am wondering if it just isn't that big of an overpressure issue anymore. Perhaps modern powders have been chemically altered to not cause enough difference in pressure/velocity/etc. for it to make a difference like it did in the past when cordite was used more & amm loaded in colder climes then sent to warmer climes had issues with case expansion after firing & the difficulty with case extraction that followed...

Another thing I have pondered is just how much effect does ambient temp have on the temp of the encapsulated powder. If one takes some rounds from their house loaded at 68F & then goes outside where it is 10F, gets in the vehicle (warmed & kept at 50F or so ( whatever temp you can get) & drives to a range 45 minutes away in the heated vehicle & then sets the ammo on the bench, the ammo is likely at a temp relatively close to what it was when loaded before it gets fired if the ammo is not exposed to the cold for an extended period of time. ( You could say the same thing towards the opposite and using AC when going to a hot place to shoot when it is 100F)
What effect would that be on the ammo loaded at 68F?
What about ammo loaded at 68F & then left in the vehicle to freeze or get cooked and not shot until later?
What about ammo loaded at 40F & left in a shed until it is 85F or vice versa before it is shot?

Really... Is this whole subject just a moot point because the temps really don't have that much effect on the loads listed in the manuals?

Long post, but I am trying to figure this stuff out. Maybe most folks have not thought about it because they go to an indoor range, maybe live in a climate where this is not any issue, maybe never even pondered on it, or maybe just did not care...

If it is an issue, then shouldn't everyone be aware of it? & if it is not an issue, then as "common knowledge" why have I not seen more info about it before now. ( When searching the internet, I still am getting a good bit of "noise" when I go look for answers in a search engine. "Noise", meaning I am not finding a lot of info from "reliable sources" like manufacturers & firearms makers as well as reloaders so far. Seems like not too many folks even care about it, IDK, but I sure would like to know.)

Well anyway, I am trying to learn more & so I am gonna keep asking questions. LOL Hopefully I will find the answers.
:)

Thanks again for the replies! & I hope there may be some more folks interested enough to share or ask even more questions so this might get figured out.
:)

44MAG#1
12-31-2017, 09:03 AM
I wonder if Elmer Keith ever worried about this?

JBinMN
12-31-2017, 09:07 AM
I wonder if Elmer Keith ever worried about this?

I am no Elmer Keith, & Neither are you, I reckon... Good question though, if sincere. He would be a good one to ask...
;)

44MAG#1
12-31-2017, 09:15 AM
Well give it a thought. He lived in a part of the country that gets as much as thirty below. What about the people that live in Alaska? Are there periods of the coldest part of the year they cannot fire their guns and loads because of the temp?
It would be nice if someone from maybe around Anchorage would post as let us know if there are times of the year guns and ammo can't be fired because of the low temperature. I have seen photos of hunters in Alaskan with ice in their beards while hunting with guns.
Could this be overthinking things. If plastic guns somehow automatically disassembled in some low temperature that would be a good time for the crooks and thugs to run rampant.
I don't know. Maybe some common sense would be in order here.

JBinMN
12-31-2017, 09:49 AM
Maybe it is not worth any concern. Without asking how would I know? You don't seem to know either it seems...

As far as temp extremes & being out in it...Living in Minnesota for a lot of years lends itself to being out in that sort of weather. I myself have hunted in temps below -25F, not counting wind chills, frosted beard & all. Muzzleloader, as well as shotgun & rifle. But... I have not tested loads with small "plastic" parts on firearms like handguns, nor have I ever noticed any issues with ammo used or powders in ammo in factory rounds. As far as the muzzleloader, the muzzle loader I used was an inline TC Omega using pryrodex pellets & a 209 primer & not a "traditional", but the experience of doing it is the same. That Omega has a synthetic( plastic) stock & forearm, but it is not a small part of the firearm, like would be on a handgun. So , I do not count it in regard to the topic here.

So, like I said, I have experience IN the cold & shooting, just not with experimenting with cartridge loads & powders that are reloaded other than factory ones.. Exception being that I have loaded & shot shotgun shells in cold weather as well for deer , waterfowl, upland birds and small game as well, but I am not trying to discuss shotgun shells, just cartridges & particularly handguns although rifles could be a good part as well.

As far as "common sense"... IMO, when one has the chance to ask others about something like I am doing here, I call that using good common sense. Just like calling up the powder makers about their products as well. Gathering as much info as one can get when dealing with things that go Bang seems to be good common sense, but maybe your definition of common sense is different from mine & I think it may be.

If you have a reference book that tells ya how to make up loads & you decide not to look up what you want to know but just go out & do it before some research is done, good for you. I would bet that folks like Elmer Keith ya mentioned, among others like the Col. who wrote up about loads( can't eremember his name) who did not have the internet lke we do, likely talkied to others about what they were doing & gonna do before they just went willy nilly testing things. Seems to me that they would not be around to tell about what they found & would have lost some body partsa if they havd not done some safe practices as well.

So, as far as I am concerned, I am using "common sense" in asking here about what I am wondering about. Just for the sake of using a "reference" no different than asking others with more experience about anything one wants to do, from cooking up a nice roast, how to hunt trukey, what to do when a car won't start in the cold, or anything else that a person might want to know about.

I'd be obliged if ya have some thing to add, other than to question my "common sense", Thanks. Seems to me that is what this forum is all about. Sharing ideas, asking questions & such about reloading & casting.

What do you have to share about the subject, if I might ask? I am curious to know what ya might have to offer. Other than seeming to be dismissing the subject as not worth discussing...

44MAG#1
12-31-2017, 10:00 AM
I am adding something. You don't see it for some reason. If there were any real danger to shooting in extremely cold temps we would se a glut of instances in writing or elsewhere about it. Not saying there isn't ANY dangers but enough to really be concerned about. If someone does have a blow up or something else relat d how do we know it was caused by the cold? How about an overload? How about a barrel accidentally plugged by maybe getting accidentally stuck in the snow. How would we even know what actually caused it.
How about the dangers traveling to and from the shooting range, hunting area, etc. etc. and more etc.?
Just like the Glock and cast bullets. How do we know the scare wasn't actually caused by some mistake by the shooter loading his ammo with cast? We don't. People still use cast in Glocks and do an admirable job of it.
Even if someone came in here and said they had a friend that had an uncle that had a friend that has a dad that the cold weather caused his firearm to get damaged by cold weather could we bet the farm on the info?
Certainly not.
There comes a time when one needs to look at the whole picture. Not just a near sighted view.

JBinMN
12-31-2017, 10:47 AM
Before I even posted the topic/question(s) I thought about what you have mentioned. Maybe ya did not know, but there were issues with firearms long ago with loads made in the European area that were brought to the tropics & there were issues with the loads & cartridges due to their being loaded & tested in colder climes, but shot in hot ones. I have also read & as mentioned before, by Tazman, as well as my mentioning his post, that loads can cause issue when they go from cooler to hotter temps. My question is the reverse, going from warm to cold instead of cold to warm.

As well, since I do not have a lot of experience with plastic parts on firearms( other than the M16A1 in the military & the muzzleloader I mentioned), I was curious about that part of testing loads in those particular firearms in the cold. So, I thought I would ask here to see if anyone actually had such experience & what they found.
I would not like to ruin a firearm, nor have one break in my hand unexpectedly, due to the shock of recoil breaking the "plastic" parts of any firearm I was shooting. Or, if one were to slip out of my hand & hit the ground as well. ( If you are familiar with the cold temps I live in, you would be aware that lots of plastic parts easily crack or break in cold temps. Tools( handles for example), cheap pot metal/plastic vehicle door handles, wiper arm ends when changing wiper blades, shovel handles, etc.. There are a lot of them I could mention from years of experience...)

I know the military tests firearms for their use in all sorts of temps & I have participated in such testing & training of military items when I was in the Corps.. They do it to see if materials & such can handle extremes. MUSTANG brought a good example of how they discovered one item that could not handle the cold in his post above. I see what I am asking as no different that asking what others may have discovered Before I go out & do it.

So , perhaps you may consider that your view of dismissing this sort of thing as not worth the time, since no one else has ever talked about it, is the "narrow view" & my quest to learn more is looking for the "whole picture" & not the narrow one.


Regardless... Of course it could be just a waste of time, but I sure would feel & look foolish if I did not ask about it before I did it & something bad happened...

Thanks for your concern about it perhaps a waste of time, but I do not feel that way & will continue to learn more if I can. Using past folks who have experimented in doing things others have not done before, perhaps I will be the one to do the tests anyway. .. Be a doggone shame if I discovered something & did not share it... As well as if I did not discover anything & did not share that knowledge either.

Just because something is not widely known, nor is known to happen often, does not mean that it should not be discussed or shared. "Detonation" in a cartridge in a firearm happens sometimes with certain powders in reduced loads , but so far no one has come up with the reason for it that I know of... Sure would be a doggone shame if it was discovered to be from the temperature of the powder in a cold environment. I do not want to be the one to discover that "link".

I am gonna keep asking the questions. If folks don't think it worth discussing so be it. They don't need to post.

I thank ya for trying to keep me from being overly concerned, and perhaps it is a "non issue", but I am a stubborn SOB & one way or the other I will eventually find out. I am just gonna keep asking about "temperature sensitivity" in powders to see if others can help before hand. I might just learn more than I already know. LOL
;)

------------------
ETA >> P.S. - Some of the powders I have been testing like Redt Dot, 700X & Clays are not very large in volume as compared to other powders. I also test for "reduced loads", so that "Detonation" I mentioned "IS" a concern for me. Just thought I would add that info for consideration, if folks did not think about that...

jsizemore
12-31-2017, 10:54 AM
Up to 2008 the best powder I found was single base Vhitavouri Oy. I've tried some of the newer powders from other manufacturers. I haven't found any better. Of course I haven't tried them all.

trapper9260
12-31-2017, 11:00 AM
I had think about this same thing that the OP is asking and just did not ask because of getting side track on other things to ask or was not thinking about at the time.It will be of intrest what will be said about it.For how cold it getting in northeast Iowa,all I was told is let the fire arms be in the cold for some time to stop the moisture in it like a muzzle loader from getting the powder damp.

chutesnreloads
12-31-2017, 11:26 AM
I was stationed at Ft.Wainwright next to Fairbanks Alaska.....we spent a LOT of time out in the sub-zero weather.Mind you I have only experience with either factory ammo or issued ammo.The only shooting issue we ran into was the weapons lubrication freezing up....even the issued "cold weather" stuff...would turn M-16's and M-60's into single shots....we would keep our weapons unlubed on the inside working parts while out in the elements...then clean and oil when we got back to base.As to the plastic parts.....I never saw the plastic parts of same weapons(stocks,grips) break and they sure weren't being handled gently.Would sure like hearing from any the old Charlie Airborne guys

GEOMETRIC
12-31-2017, 11:58 AM
The newest powders are being designed to be stable in extreme temperature variations. Extreme high temperature can cause high pressure with some powder. Extreme cold can cause ignition problems but that I believe is more of a problem with shotgun ammo. I would test my ammo if I were going on a hunt in extremely cold or hot conditions. I was trying to figure out why a certain rifle wasn't grouping well. I finally gave up & sold it. My gunsmith couldn't figure it out either. I put the ammo. in the freezer over night & that had no effect on the ammo that I was able to detect.

GEOMETRIC
12-31-2017, 12:14 PM
JB, Asking questions is an excellent way to find things out. You learn a lot more listening than flapping your gums. This site is a wealth of information. I would suggest doing some reading but be careful what you believe. There is a lot of BS going around & I have noticed a steady deterioration of the quality of info. on the web. "One good test is worth a thousand expert opinions" : H.P. White Laboratories.

44MAG#1
12-31-2017, 12:41 PM
Let me ask a question. What are you going to establish your data base on. The one person that said they had a problem? Two people? Three people? A dozen people? How are you going to establish a data base that is solid enough that you can even say that it is worthwhile? How do you know that one, two, three or more of the people that said they had problems are even legitimate in their findings? How can you know it wasn't something they did in error that caused the problem?
We have incidents of years ago people having trouble???? Who are these people? What was determined that caused the anomaly? Do we even know? If we do what was the cause?
How many on here can we trust to be completely accurate on what they say? Do you Know everyone on here personally?
Things like this may be good for conversation but where is a data base on anything even resembling anything that is factual? From people that one can say, they are a fact machine and what they say is beyond reproach in cold weather situations with firearms?

GEOMETRIC
12-31-2017, 01:04 PM
.44 mag.,
Your logic is flawed. Mass is not a unit of weight. Weight is a measure of gravitational attraction. A 10 lb. sledge weights 10 lbs. on earth. In outer space it's weight is ZERO but it still has 10 lbs. of mass. A kilogram was originally defined as one cubic centimeter of water. 1000 kilograms of water is a liter.

JBinMN
12-31-2017, 03:14 PM
To me it is not much different than "caveat emptor" in regard to what one reads on the internet.
"Let the "reader" beware".

So, I reckon it is up to those who read this later to decide what info is worth saving & what info is not.

Up until now there has not been one instance of someone saying that they did perform load testing/ladder testing in cold weather to compare to warmer weather testing of the same sort. That does not mean I, or anyone else, should make the illogical assumption that just because no one has posted anything here, that it has not been done & so no one can say with any sort of reliability or authority what sort of results might be expected.

[Note- But there has been some anecdotal evidence offered about taking cooler loads to hot temps & resultant pressure signs. Not specific testing, but personal experiences to that effect if one wants to consider it.]

In regard to reading & accepting what is on the internet... I am not sure why anyone would question "my" ability to research any subject & weed out the "chaff from the wheat" as far as what is reliable info & what is not. When they don't even know me, or my background enough to come to such a conclusion. Seems a pretty far reach without more information. How does anyone know that I haven't done the testing, did not tell anyone yet, & am trying to see if my data matches up in any way with theirs? And this whole topic was generated to see if anyone else is competition before I publish my findings?

They don't know. They have to trust, if they choose to do so, that I am a sincere man & truly would like to know what experience anyone else has in this area. Otherwise, why even post or read the posts..??..

If there comes a point in time that I decide to do this sort of testing on my own, I will do it. Whether I share those results here will likely be determined by the type of positive answers & posts I get in this topic. If there seems to be no interest or little interest, then I see no reason to share it. Likewise, if someone else had asked for folks to share what they could about such a topic/subject & I had the experience, I would tend to share what I knew to help out.

If no one takes the time to share here, then what is the use of such a forum? Just coffee shop or barroom BS talk? It has been said by more than one , including me, that this forum has a lot of experience & is a great source of reference for firearms, reloading & cast & other not so common techniques. I could not have found a better place to ask what I have asked, IMO. If there is such a "database" about temperature sensitivities & powders & load testing in cold weather, I figured this would be a great place to ask about it. I did not expect to have any questions about the WHY i am questioning something & also be told that I should just accept that there is not reason to even think about it since no one talks about it... Nice job of trying to stifle more learning about things. If no one can come in and say, "That's been tested & found to not be worth the time" and can do so with some reliability & authority to back their opinion up, then it might be time to reconsider. Or, it might be time to take the testing a bit further...

Like I said, I am gonna keep asking the questions & see if I get any answer that apply to the questions. I am not likely to continue to answer questions about my questions & whether they are worth asking.

Either folks want to share some ideas & thoughts, some experiences, some sources of more information about this subject & all that, or they do not. Not much I can do about either, but I know that this topic has been sucking up words with not much coming out of it in regard to the subject & that in itself is a bummer.

Making something contentious when it need not be is kind of silly to me. Why anyone would care that I am interested in finding out more & they think it is a waste of time even take the time to post anyway. That has already proven to be a waste of time, hasn't it?
;)

So, back to the OP question(s), if there is anyone who has read this far & sorted out the "wheat from the chaff" in the topic...

JBinMN
12-31-2017, 03:27 PM
If anyone would like to do it, if one posts the search terms(keywords), "cordite + temperature + sensitivity" in a search engine, they might learn a bit more about what I was referencing about folks long ago having issues with smokeless powders & temperature sensitivities.

If one would like, they can go to a search engine & type in search terms(keywords), "Detonation + powder + cartridge + reduced" a search engine, they might learn a bit more about what I was referencing about having a catastrophic explosion(detonation) in your firearm.

Then folks might understand a bit more about why I started the topic & asked the questions I have in the first place.

Even as I wait to see if there is more informative responses here, I continue to research elsewhere for as much as I can find out before I "get my feet wet". In asking here about it, I was "testing the waters" to see if "anyone else had already taken a swim in these waters", in a manner of speaking...

I hope others can keep shedding more light on this subject. I think it is interesting, but most that have read this far already know that. LOL
:)

Mr_Sheesh
12-31-2017, 03:53 PM
JB,

If the temperature is raised by 10 degrees C from 25C the reaction rate doubles, that's one of the basic things we learn about room-temperature chemistry. And that's "just for regular reactions"...

That doesn't mean that smokeless powder will explode necessarily if you touch it off in a hot rifle, but I imagine what could make an issue happen is this;

Say someone doesn't know this, so this year they load their year's worth of hunting ammo in June. It's nice and warm, they either start a minimum & load 5 rounds of each powder weight (increasing by .1 Gr for the next group), or set up for ladder testing if they have a Chrono.

They go test & find just "the right" charge for that bullet. They hunt the year through, but in November they have a friend call for help with a coyote group that's picking on his livestock.

So at the end of November they're out of ammo; They decide to load a years' worth again, only they want to try a different powder.

So they load up those - And next June the loads are very very hot...

Could also happen with the same powder (If they're thinking maybe the bore is getting old or the powder getting old) or with a bullet change or the like.

3.0 Gr IS 3.0 Gr but if you loaded last year with 3 Gr and got say 2100 FPS out of your handgun, but reload now during a cold snap & find that it takes 3.6 Gr to get that bullet up to 2100 FPS, come summer you might well have an issue. The powders additives (retardants and so on) probably help a lot here - But, the laws of chemistry are still there. That's why people suggest some caution & to avoid "Here, hold my beer!" moments :)

44MAG#1
12-31-2017, 04:15 PM
Again where would you start building a data base to start determining what you want to know? One persons experience, two people, three people a dozen people? Again how would you know how many people word could you take on the subject?
If you haven't tried it why don't you and if you have you already know to your satisfaction. But if you tei s it and had a negative experience can you tell us that it would be the wrong thing to do and if you had a good experience does that mean everyone else will. Now just saying in your one experience? Are you going to test everyone of the powders and primers out there to determine that the good or bad experience is only related to one or more powders? What about all the bullet weights out there for a given cartridge? What about all the cartridges out there? What about all the combinations of brands etc. in a given cartridge?
I know I would be all ears. How much do you expect this to cost?

JBinMN
12-31-2017, 04:33 PM
Thanks Mr. Sheesh , and others as well I might add, in case I forgot to thank them as well!

Your analogy Mr. Sheesh is a good one & well taken.

I can see how loads developed in order to reach certain velocity could cause issue if they were created in colder weather then used in warmer weather. Particularly if the ones reloading were flirting with "hot" loads to begin with.

Part of my intended goal was to find out about staying within recent reliable manuals load limits while doing ladder testing & being safe about it, but not pushing "hot" loads. More on the other end of the spectrum by going into "reduced" loads as well as staying within the parameters of verified load data from manuals.

I will try to use some of my own testing but using the "3.0gr. /Powder X example when/if I can to try to be more specific on the ladder testing I would like to do.

[Note- I ladder test in increments of 0.1gr as each step of the ladder, although others may not, but that is how "I" do it. Particularly with small amounts of fine powder in some handgun loads/cases. As they say, for others , YMMV, especially if you are using larger cases & bulkier powders]

If the loads I want to ladder test are verified by , lets say a recent Lyman Manual, and replacing the 3.0gr./Powder X with a real set of load parameters like for a .45 ACP and using a 230gr. boolit with 700X. If the Lyman manual says it is 4.2 starting load and 4.7 gr. of 700X as the Maximum load , should folks think that "that" particular load is good from -25F all the way to +110F, since it is in the range of a reputable Manufacturer? Or, is there going to be an issue with their load data at some point in the temperature scale in regard to "temperature sensitivity" that would create situations that could case issues?
If there is some issue, has anyone seen anything in one of the manuals that tells of using caution dependent of temperatures when using the listed data in their manuals?

Expanding beyond that example, what are the thoughts on/about "reduced loads" using that same sort of example. What about ladder testing from 3.8gr to the start load of 4.2gr. to find a reduced load? Should their be concern for those loads in colder temps or hotter temps since the are "reduced"? As well as the same questions about caution(s)....

Does one get into the realm of possibilities of "detonation" at those reduced loads in colder weather, vs where it is "overpressure" issue that could come into play when the temps get warmer?

Those are the sorts of info I am trying to find out. And find out without issues to myself, others & the firearms used.

Thanks again for your post! It is just more to put on the scales one way or the other in regard to ladder testing & load development in/for cold weather.
:)

BTW, for those who might be curious, part of why I am asking about this type of thing is because I have about 400-500 rounds of already made ammo of varying calibers that I want to test and it is pretty doggone cold out right now. I am kind of stuck in my reloading as I would have no trouble going out & using standard loads in my firearms if the data would not be of concern from the reputable manuals. Or for shame, LOL using factory loads to shoot... ;) I want to shoot some of those test loads, including the ladder testing of some reduced loads, but do not want the possibility of wasting my time if the data would not be worth gathering. Let alone taking the risk of some issues with myself or the firearms involved for some reason. Along with that, is that I have about 20+ different types of powders to ladder test in a lot of firearms & I do not want to create loads that I cannot test right after I load them. I would like to be able to shoot them outside since I do not have a local indoor range to go to and shoot them.
I am not impatient usually, but there is a thing called "cabin fever" & with the type of Winter that has been happening & due to my health issues, & not being able to do what I would like outside, it is irritating to say the least. So, before loading up a bunch more rounds to be load tested in this cold, or to wait for warmer temps, I am checking to see if there is good reason to wait or not. As well as to see if doing the testing now, vs waiting until warmer weather returns is worth the time & efforts.

JBinMN
12-31-2017, 04:48 PM
Again where would you start building a data base to start determining what you want to know? One persons experience, two people, three people a dozen people? Again how would you know how many people word could you take on the subject?
If you haven't tried it why don't you and if you have you already know to your satisfaction. But if you tei s it and had a negative experience can you tell us that it would be the wrong thing to do and if you had a good experience does that mean everyone else will. Now just saying in your one experience? Are you going to test everyone of the powders and primers out there to determine that the good or bad experience is only related to one or more powders? What about all the bullet weights out there for a given cartridge? What about all the cartridges out there? What about all the combinations of brands etc. in a given cartridge?
I know I would be all ears. How much do you expect this to cost?

I do not intend on continuing with even attempting to answer your questions as to my motivations, or how much effort or cost may be involved.

It is my impression that you are belittling my attempt ( and anyone else who might be interested) to learn more, and are trying to make it sound as though I am "off chasing windmills" in your opinion.

I am not interested, thank you. When I think I have some data regarding this ladder testing in the colder weather I will try to consider your questions & such. If I decide on what might be a "data base" to use, ( which no one has provided, nor a link/book/etc. to the same), or if I decide to make my own set of parameters, it will be after I have tried to exhaust what research I can gather & likely not before. This topic in this forum, is one of those research sources. Until it has run its course & there seems to be no more additional information to be gained... Then I will likely start actually firing the loads I want to test, in the cold, to gather the data I seek...

Thanks you for helping me keep the topic up where folks will see it, I should add! I appreciate it very much.

BTW... I see posts here all the time about people asking what load is best for some firearm. Sometimes they do not even say which firearm, but list just a platform like 45ACP & then wait to see who offers suggestions or favorite loads. Many times it seems they have not done ANY ladder testing using THEIR firearm, but expect to get spoonfed info, which really is not gonna be much more than a starting point IF they actually try to use those suggestions, since they are not always specific to their firearm(s) if they mentioned them at all, & what projectile/powder/etc. they are wanting to use.

Why don't ya do everyone a favor & go police those topics & tell them that they should not waste their time looking for information here, but go shoot the firearm themselves to establish the loads for their firearms...Perhaps that will be more useful than what I have seen here from ya in this topic. Perhaps as well, you might have a great effect on cutting down on such topics... G'Luck! should you choose such an endeavor. You don't even need a "data base" to start with.

Check back though. There might be some good information to read after waiting a time. It appears others are interested in this subject as well as just me...

Mr_Sheesh
12-31-2017, 07:30 PM
JB - Glad I helped. 0.1 Grain, huh? I have a new Chrono coming, I'll try a mixture of the old way and the ladder method to do load workup soon, that's going to be interesting :)

I don't know how Speer, Hornady, etc. do their load testing; were I them I'd do something like testing at a fixed temperature, probably underground, with the test barrel shooting through a suppressing tunnel to reduce noise, and a video camera looking at the target. Load and fire it at say 70F and it'll be a lot safer at 110F than a load that was developed to the same pressure, at -20F! I'm sure they have their ways and that they've had some SMART people thinking on it - Seems pretty likely.

I've never seen any signs in my reduced loads, of increased pressure; But then they were LOW powered loads, instead of Cast Boolits I may move to PC or PP (in an ideal world all your bullets would have the same outside treatment - Jackets or Lubed Lead or ??? I suspect that these reduced loads maybe run 18k PSI or something tops? I need to get that software for bullet simulation, AND find my old loads book, tho I suspect the one family member stole that. Let's do an example tho -

.243 Winchester 87 Gr. BTHP CCI Sm R. Benchmark 23.0 Gr. Starline Brass Hotter varminting load
vs
.243 Winchester 80 Gr. Hor. SSP CCI Sm R. IMR-4895 32.0 Gr. Starline Brass Small Game Load ~1873 FPS ~35,000 CUP

On the 2nd load, with changing the load some, you should be able to get it to hit the crosshairs at 25 yards, that's basically what I do. Then any close-in shot it's rather predictable where the bullet IS, so you can do head shots, saving the most meat.

For reduced loads I just used Dacron Batting in the past; I'll try Kapok now. Hold the powder against the primer and then there's not much that CAN go wrong; I've done a lot of safety systems in different contexts and, you know, handloading is a place where safety can really matter! So I maybe go overboard a tiny bit, but - trust me - the peace of mind seems worth it. Still have all 3 fingers and toes remaining, too. (Actually all the original ones, but I like teasing!)

The other thing is - Some people don't like Chronographs, they hate the thought of some idiot shooting their skyscreen's structural parts, and statistics math makes their brain hurt. There are better, newer Chronos that do the Stats for you, that might help them out. The "5 rounds at each load and see how they shoot" method does work, if you don't have a chronograph, which I didn't in the stone ages. Will have one soon tho, going to be better being more scientific :)

JBinMN
12-31-2017, 09:05 PM
Mr Sheesh,

Thanks for your reply!
:)

I have been using a chrony only a short time, about 6-7 months & I find it quite useful. I wish I had purchased one long before. It has helped a lot in figuring some factors that are important to us in working loads. The one I use is a Caldwell Ballistics one & it "does the math" which is quite helpful & saves time. I have brought some of the data I have gathered here to castboolits forum on occasion & helped out others with the testing results, so , to me, that is just icing on the cake of having such a tool. I would recommend having & using one to anyone who likes to work up loads for themselves on some occasions.
:)

I have not been using filler in my reduced loads, although I have been considering it. I have just been trying to make sure I am consistent with how I bring the firearm to the sandbag on a rest to shoot, so I know where the powder starts in the case before firing & then let recoil do the rest. Sometime in the future I will start testing for forward & aft positioning and also with fillers, but right now I am keeping things simpler. Climbing the info ladder one step at a time.
;)

When I do these tests along with only going .1gr. at a time with the powders, most of the time I am also firing at minimum 5-10 rounds each for accuracy & then taking the best of the bunch for accuracy and testing again with the chrony. I was doing that to try to keep things simple & get used to using the chrony. As I get more used to using the chrony I will likely start using it when I am testing for each steps accuracy & the chrony data at the same time. Several times I have forgotten to turn it on when testing & have to start over. Also, on occasion, I get an error & so I have to repeat that also sometime later. So, until I figure out a good system to use it, I will continue at my slow plodding test routine. I reckon eventually I will get better at going thru the motions.
[ In other words, I reckon I may have to fall down a few times before I climb to the top of the ladder to learn how to climb it right & if one is going to fall, it is better to fall a short distance than from the top.. One step at a time will get me there eventually.]
;)
-----------------------

Here is some info I have found when "researching" about this subject & I am going to post it here for anyone else to look at. I cannot verify this info at this time, so it is up to those who read it to decide whether or not it is worth anything to them or not. It is pertinent to what I have been asking for here & although I only use the powder #19 of the list in my powder supply, the list itself gives one an idea of what sort of info I have been trying to find. Here is some snips from it & I have removed some of it for privacy reasons of the ones I got it from. It is out on the internet & available to anyone who searches for this sort of thing.

===================start=======

Several years back Hodgdons did a velocity spread test from 0-125 F on 7.62x51mm using a 168gr OTM bullet. Their data showed the most temperature sensitive powder in their test to be IMR 4895, not a ball powder. Hodgdons data was on their website but has since been removed. I have had no luck in getting Hodgdons to send me their full list of data from their tests. A partial list of the Hodgdons data is below:

Velocity spread in FPS between 0-125 degrees F:

1. H4350: 4 (FPS)
2. Varget: 8
3. H4831C: 10
4. RL 12: 26
5. AA4350: 29
6. AA2460: 36
7. IMR 4064: 46
8. VIT 550: 49
9. RL 15: 50
10. VIT N140: 50
11. AA2520: 63
12. IMR 4350: 67
13. RL22: 75
14. RL 19: 94
15. AA3100: 113
16. W 748: 114
17. VIT N560: 121
18. IMR 4831: 127
19. IMR 4895: 166

*redacted* email on temperature stability of Ramshot TAC powder cut & pasted here with his written permission:



powder temperature stability Friday, June 13, 2008 12:36 PMFrom: *redacted*

*redacted*,

First I would like to thank you for your interest in Ramshot powders.

All of the powders sold under the Ramshot or Accurate brands meet or exceed the military specification for hot and cold stability. As with anything some powders are better than others. Single base powders such as Varget can be made more temperature stable than double based powders such as Accurate 2520 although there are trade offs to anything. While the nitroglycerin in a double based powder makes it less temperature stable it is the component that makes double based powders cleaner burning and allows them to attain higher velocities than their single based cousins.

In both the single base and double base lines of powders some powders have better temperature stability than others. Ramshot "TAC" is one of the most temperature stable double based powders available. It is this very reason that so much of it is being used for military applications in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Even under extreme temperatures Ramshot "TAC" will vary less than half of what the military will allow.

I hope this helps you out.

Good shooting!

*redacted*
Western Powders Ballistic Lab
====================end======

In looking at that list one can see that Varget is likely a good choice for avoiding temperature sensitivity & I have found quite a few sources that substantiate that powder from personal experiences. I do not use Varget at this time, nor any others but #19 so I will continue to search. I have decided to call/email the 3 companies that I do have powders from & see if they will be a bit more accomodating about giving out this type of info that what it sounds like this person seems to have had for a response back in 2008-9.
Only way to know is to ask... Just like here...
;)

I will continue to post these sorts of details as I run across them as I search, but I still welcome anyone who has useful information to share on the subject, if they will take the time to do so.

Thanks again to all that have helped out!
:)

JBinMN
12-31-2017, 09:21 PM
A few articles on the subject:
https://gundigest.com/how-to/reloading-ammo-smokeless-powder-and-temperature-sensitivity

https://gundigest.com/gear-ammo/reloading/reloading-temperature-sensitive-powder

https://gundigest.com/how-to/training/ballistics-air-temperature-bullet-flight

tazman
12-31-2017, 10:01 PM
As long as you are using book loads, you should be fine no matter the temperature you use them in. That is part of how the book loads are designed.
Just be prepared for different impact points due to significant temperature changes since in higher temperature, your velocities will likely increase, sometimes substantially.
Someone mentioned that newer powders are designed to be less temperature sensitive and this is true. I haven't tested many of the new ones to see how much since I still have quantities of the powders I have used for years. I did try the new CFE223 powder using my chrony and an ice box on a hot day recently(although at the moment it seems a long time ago -7 here currently).
I found it to be slightly temp sensitive but not badly so. The load I had developed with it during cold weather was a max load. When I shot it on a hot summer day, it had issues. I backed off on the charge and re-developed it during the hot weather. It works fine now, hot or cold.

JBinMN
01-01-2018, 10:22 AM
Tazman,
Thanks for your helpful reply.
:)

I have kind of figured that "book loads" would be OK to use in cold temps as well as warmer ones , since I do not think that the folks who do the tests would send out info to folks reloading without considering temperatures in their testing & such. Since I have not found any references in manuals in regard to temperatures the testing was performed in, but have now seen that powder manufacturers "do" have lists, whether publicly available or not, where they apparently have tested some ( if not all, as it is only a partial list) powders for temp. sens. from 0- 125F as per the list from Hodgdons posted in post#28. I don't think they would "not" consider temp. sens., since it is in their best interest to know such info before printing the manuals & releasing them to the public..

I do understand how loads may perform differently based on temps & that loads that are pushed "hot" or at/above the recommended "Max" for any particular powder when those loads ae fired at hot temps vs. cold ones, but I also have found where some folks have "said" ( but not yet verified by me, or from the powder mnfrs.) that some powders, contrary to what one would think, do change their characteristics when in cold temps to perform with higher pressures than one would expect. That is part of what I am trying to find out.

As well as that part, I am also & have been working with "reduced loads" , mainly for my missus (but also in general as well), for helping her deal with handgun handling/recoil issues since she has her carpal tunnel problems in both hands/wrists. Since once one gets into the "reduced loads" area, that "detonation" factor appears to come into play as well as it seems to be more prevalent in reduced loads than ones within the regular "Start to Max" load ranges listed in manuals. My concerns about a possible pressure "spike, drop, spike" (<I am not sure of the correct term for this) upon powder ignition due to temp. sens. & the possibility of a "detonation" occurring as a result are certainly not un-founded as the "cause" of a "detonation" has not yet been established as far as I know.

Since, as most of us know, a big part of our reloading involves "Safe Practices". Regardless of temperatures when handling firearms & ammo. And that is just one more part of why I am trying to research into temp. sensitivity. I want to create & work up Safe loads in the reduced loads as well as see what type of performance will be found. Just like in being safe when taking loads into warmer to hot weather, I want to be able to know that I am doing the same safe practices in reduced loads as well, and particularly in cold temps, as well as warmer ones.

I have been "general" in asking the questions I have, and some would consider my being "vague" in as far as I have not mentioned which firearms, projectiles ( size & weight), types of powders, etc. so far. I was doing that since I was hoping to keep things simple before getting into more detail about such things. I was looking for info that would cover as wide a swath as possible before I tried to narrow things down into smaller areas. That perhaps may not be the way to go about it here, and I may have narrowed the response from folks since I was not more specific.

One of the folks that have posted in this topic have asked me for specifics as in where I was going to set a data base "benchmark", what I was going to use & such. I took that as a discouragement to what I was trying to accomplish, since I do not feel that I need to define specifics before getting a general idea of what might work or not. I did not see it as someone asking for defined parameters so they could help. That perhaps is a mistake, but I figured that if I cannot get "general" info, then going into specifics would narrow anyone from sharing any info if they did not happen to use the "specific" load makeups I am currently testing.

I believe I mentioned before that I have around 20+ powders to work with here & I am only currently working with 3 fast burning powders. ( mostly what a lot of folks consider, "shotgun" powders) Alliant Red Dot, Hodgdon Clays, and 700X are those 3. But, the principles/info I am looking for are not just for those 3, but for the other 17+ a well. Or , at least I hoped I could get info on a broad range of powders before I got into the specifics.

Another detail I have not been more specific about, other than the mention of handguns and possibly rifles, is the types of firearms I am testing these loads in. I did not see why it would matter if all of the info I am trying to gather is in regard to metallic cartridges made for handgun & rifle platforms in general. Currently, other than shotguns, I am reloading for 7 different handguns & 2 rifles. The info I am seeking I would hope would apply to all of those platforms & not be specific to any one caliber. I do not know why it would be necessary to list them out. So, I have not offered them for consideration. It is the powder usage in cold temps while doing load development that is what I am looking for. BTW, I am not going to go into the "primer/powder" combination in cold temps as of yet, as I wished to stay focused on powders for the time being, once again to try to keep things general & simple for everyone.

I realize that these posts of mine are long winded, but I do not know how to make them more brief and still try to get all that I am trying to convey to folks out there for everyones consideration. Folks will either forgive me for it, or not & move on...There is nothing I know how to do to make things better, or more brief. I usually can "say" what I am trying to say without being so long winded, but typing & me putting out my thoughts is hard for some reason, I guess. Regardless, I am trying anyway. Thanks for the patience if anyone reads this far...

Thanks again for those who have helped out! I really do appreciate the efforts.
:)

Now, back to researching for me.
;)

jsizemore
01-01-2018, 11:17 AM
I realize that these posts of mine are long winded, but I do not know how to make them more brief and still try to get all that I am trying to convey to folks out there for everyones consideration. Folks will either forgive me for it, or not & move on...There is nothing I know how to do to make things better, or more brief. I usually can "say" what I am trying to say without being so long winded, but typing & me putting out my thoughts is hard for some reason, I guess. Regardless, I am trying anyway. Thanks for the patience if anyone reads this far...

You got that right. Reminds me of Faulkner.

We actually found 150fps variation in 2460 which made it unsuitable for use in a 223. Maybe it's better in a 308.

JBinMN
01-01-2018, 11:30 AM
I realize that these posts of mine are long winded, but I do not know how to make them more brief and still try to get all that I am trying to convey to folks out there for everyones consideration. Folks will either forgive me for it, or not & move on...There is nothing I know how to do to make things better, or more brief. I usually can "say" what I am trying to say without being so long winded, but typing & me putting out my thoughts is hard for some reason, I guess. Regardless, I am trying anyway. Thanks for the patience if anyone reads this far...

You got that right. Reminds me of Faulkner.

We actually found 150fps variation in 2460 which made it unsuitable for use in a 223. Maybe it's better in a 308.

LOL
:D
Well, at least I admit to it & don't get to make a dime for it as well as Faulkner did. Maybe he was paid "by the word"? LOL :D

And, apparently ya read far enough to see my foible &/or peccadillo, then comment on it... Thanks!
;)

Thanks for the info on the 2460 powder.
:)

It is not in my powders on hand, but worth the sharing for those who have & do use it & get this far into the topic.
;)

And Happy New Year! to you & yours!
:)

44MAG#1
01-01-2018, 11:33 AM
"We actually found 150fps variation in 2460 which made it unsuitable for use in a 223. Maybe it's better in a 308."

What did you determine, beyond a reasonable doubt, was the cause?

jsizemore
01-01-2018, 12:52 PM
What did you determine, beyond a reasonable doubt, was the cause?

The only variable in 3 different 223 rifles was temp.

upnorthwis
01-01-2018, 12:56 PM
Here's my actual data with actual chrono and actual temp. This may be the third, forth, or even fifth time I've told about this event. A certain Cowboy match required a minimum of 600 fps. Am loading for Ruger BH in .38 Spl., 125 gr. boolit, & WW231 powder. Set up Oehler 35P in yard on 90 degree day. Take a couple of shots over chrono and then adjust powder adjustment on Dillon 550B. Finally get to 600 fps with a little for safety factor and proceed to load a thousand or so. They shoot fine in the summer. Then I went to a match in October and it was 20 degrees. Fellow competitors said they could see the boolits coming out of the barrel they were so slow. Get home and set up chrono again. In 20 degrees they were going 350 fps. I think the load was something around 3.2 gr. I now load to 3.5 gr. and thankfully have not had to shoot in 20 degrees again.

OS OK
01-01-2018, 01:07 PM
Air temp. trajectory, velocity...temperature changes?
The Army Field Manual for Sniper Training, 23-10, suggests a 1 MOA change for every 20*F. increase or decrease across all the yardages (but....with the .308W it's only 'near accurate' at 600 yards) it's more of a rule of thumb. That manual is more of an 'Applied Battlefield Ballistics for selected weapons'

The biggest difference is cartridge temperature when it's sent. Many suggest carrying your ammo inside your clothing next to the body for temp. stability, that doesn't help much when you've been sitting in a blind for hours...what about the one in the chamber or those in the mag.?
What about the temp. at the range when you tuned that round to the harmonics of the rifle, what was the temp. that day and what is the temp. next to your body on a cold winter day? There is still a difference.

The best way is to get yourself schooled on 'Interior Ballistics'...here's where to get it first hand and accurate...
SNIPER 101 Part 28 - Temperature Corrections - Rex Reviews
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFrOwyRbDGA&index=28&list=PLJUaiRIEduNXoal2_PkBZi0vDCIcEPxUn

For the interior/exterior ballistics...also all the other peripheral factors of 'Applied Physics' go here...Prolly start @ video numbers 25~28...but, it goes deeper than that as you will see...
Sniper 101
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJUaiRIEduNXoal2_PkBZi0vDCIcEPxUn


As far as technical information on the various powders, you need another handloaders book that list's them and discusses their applications, this is where you will find out first hand whether or not that particular powder is subject to extreme temp. variations. Also, there will be warnings about light loads etc..

This is an old copy and doesn't cover all the newer powders I hear you fellas talking about...I would imagine that this type book is still in print and updated but not sure about that, I haven't had the need to go hunting for it yet.


210831

If it were me JB... I would use the rifle rounds that I've spent time tuning in the warm temperature of summer and then go out in the cold at whatever temp. I expected to encounter and develop new range cards to compensate. Unless I lived somewhere cold year round I would not develop a cold weather round and take the chance of it getting into a rifle chamber on a hot day.

***Sorry if I covered something already said, I did read the first page and comments but it all got too long winded and drifted some...
If you choose to pursue this I do think it would make for an interesting thread to follow.

c h a r l i e

JBinMN
01-01-2018, 01:44 PM
Here's my actual data with actual chrono and actual temp. This may be the third, forth, or even fifth time I've told about this event. A certain Cowboy match required a minimum of 600 fps. Am loading for Ruger BH in .38 Spl., 125 gr. boolit, & WW231 powder. Set up Oehler 35P in yard on 90 degree day. Take a couple of shots over chrono and then adjust powder adjustment on Dillon 550B. Finally get to 600 fps with a little for safety factor and proceed to load a thousand or so. They shoot fine in the summer. Then I went to a match in October and it was 20 degrees. Fellow competitors said they could see the boolits coming out of the barrel they were so slow. Get home and set up chrono again. In 20 degrees they were going 350 fps. I think the load was something around 3.2 gr. I now load to 3.5 gr. and thankfully have not had to shoot in 20 degrees again.

Thanks!, for taking the time to tell of your doins again here. I had not come across your story before now.
:)

That is one heck of a change in velocity with that temp range from 90F to 20F!
This is part of why I am asking about this sort of info. Your loads for that cartridge were definitely reduced loads based on the load data from Hodgdons load data for a 125gr. LRNFP:

Winchester 231 |.358"|1.445" COL| 3.8gr. Start 876fps|10,300 CUP| 4.8gr. Max.| 1,071fps|16,900 CUP

That would be about a 3.57fps drop for every degree F., or a total of 250 in a 70 degree range. as compared to that chart of Hodgdons posted before where Varget has only a 4fps change in -0-F. to 125F..
That W231 shows some serious temperature sensitivity, IMO. And like I said, a part of why I am trying to learn more & why I think this sort of subject/topic is worth discussing & learning from...

It makes me want to ask if you remember if the ammo you tested/used was at the same temp as the ambient air in the 90F? Was the ammo used in the 20F at ambient air temp as well? Do you think that barrel heat from shooting may have had any impact on performance in either case?

Those are just a few that come to mind as I type this post...

Anyway, so far, I am coming up to a couple conclusions. One is that I am likely going to need to verify with a chrony no matter what powder I use to test for reduced loads & not just go with accuracy alone.
And, as has been covered so far in this topic, the reduced loads will most likely change POA/POI based on powder selection ( as well as other components/factors) dependent on the ambient temp. based on each powders temp. sensitivity.

Meaning I either have to obtain a list of each powder I am testing to see what the manufacturer has for data on their powders temp sensitivity, or do my own testing to try to make a list myself.

It is pretty apparent to me now that ladder testing in the cold is worth the time even when using load data from manuals in the range of their Start to Max. loads, since I would bet that even , for example, that W231 powder must have some sort of velocity /POA/POI change due to temps in that range, since it appears to have had those sort of changes in reduced loads. Perhaps not as much of a change, but likely a change of some sort.

{As an example, if they were getting 876FPS when using 3.8gr W231 and the testing temp was at 70F, then if that same batch of loads was then tested at 40F, would it have the change in FPS(velocity) of 30 deg.F. X 3.57 per degreeF. loss (<Being the loss as was the case in your example), thus... 30 X 3.57 = 107.1FPS loss from 876FPS = 768.9 FPS as a result of the temp. sensitivity & change in ambient air?}

Something to think about...IMO...

With all of that being pondered by me, I am still concerned about the possibility of "detonation" with reduced loads in cold temps as well, so that is something that still needs to be addressed as best I can if nothing else for "peace of mind". I will continue to try to gather as much info as I can before I go out & start running these reduced loads & take a chance on having some issue(s).

I am also still concerned about how the "plastic" parts might be affected by the cold, but no one is offering any decent info regarding that, so I am gonna likely have to just take a chance there as well if I go out in this cold & test.

Slowly but surely I am gathering more info, although some of which I have not yet shared here. I would & may, but I am waiting to see just how much interest there actually is in this sort of thing by others. I can always do this stuff on my own, but sharing what is found may help others who decide to do this sort of thing also.

Well, Thanks!, for all of the input so far that is helping get this type of info shared! It is appreciated!
:)

JBinMN
01-01-2018, 01:57 PM
Air temp. trajectory, velocity...temperature changes?

.....snip... { just for brevity}

If it were me JB... I would use the rifle rounds that I've spent time tuning in the warm temperature of summer and then go out in the cold at whatever temp. I expected to encounter and develop new range cards to compensate. Unless I lived somewhere cold year round I would not develop a cold weather round and take the chance of it getting into a rifle chamber on a hot day.

***Sorry if I covered something already said, I did read the first page and comments but it all got too long winded and drifted some...
If you choose to pursue this I do think it would make for an interesting thread to follow.

c h a r l i e

Thanks! Charlie, for taking the time to post & with very applicable & helpful info & insight! I have read your post & will go over it again. You were posting as I was typing so I am just going to respond briefly.. ( for a change. LOL ;) )

A lot of what you mention I am aware of, so I did not mention it myself regarding what I know of ballistics/etc.. I already type too much. I did not think that sort of background was needed. I already have tested long ago & still do for hunting purposes, those firearms I use for hunting in the temps I hunt in. None are reduced loads & I primarily shoot those firearms in the temps they have been testing in & not year round. Not so much for handguns though & that is what prompted me to offer this topic up. Most of the time I have shot loads strictly "by the book" in the ranges offered & the temps were not all that cold nor hot. Nor do I shoot competitively on a regular basis, but only for fun on occasion with buddies. So, I did not have much concern in regard to temp sensitivity with those sort of loads.

It has only been since I have been working on reduced loads that I have been more interested ( & some concern) about the temp sensitivities of powders in particular( & components + firearms also) & the effects of the cold on the firearms & ammo I was testing. Before I just went with "book" loads & left it at that trusting to the safety of those listed ranges/parameters.

I am going to try to keep this brief as I said , so I will stop there & go over your post once again in a short while.
:)

I appreciate your help as I said & I apologise for the "sidetracking" & "stray" posts I have made in this topic in response to others. I should just have not replied at all in hindsight, but that water is over the dam now & that is that.

Hopefully I will have the discipline to ignore such doins & stay focused on the subject here.

Thanks again!
:)

tazman
01-01-2018, 02:50 PM
It is true that some powders are susceptible to detonation due to reduced loads. I don't have experience with that. I think a search for that might turn up some info.
There are plenty of powders out there that are known to work fine with reduced loads. Those would be a good place to start.
That is why people were asking for details about what you had to work with, so they could make recommendations about what might be best out of what you already had.

There will be issues that relate to some powders but not all.
As in lots of things reloading, the particular combination may work differently than a general application. You can't make many general statements about reloading combinations that apply in all circumstances. So much depends on how your specific weapon reacts to the components used.

chutesnreloads
01-01-2018, 02:57 PM
Based on my arctic experience I really don't expect to see you testing in temps cold enough to break any of your "polymer" gun parts.All this testing will take some time.Can just see recording the data as well as fumbling loading cartridges in extreme cold with or without your mittens on.Will there be any attempt at recording group sizes also or just testing for pressure/velocity?If you pursue this you,sir,are a lot more stubborn and hard headed than I am not to mention a LOT tougher.Good luck

upnorthwis
01-01-2018, 03:03 PM
It makes me want to ask if you remember if the ammo you tested/used was at the same temp as the ambient air in the 90F? Was the ammo used in the 20F at ambient air temp as well? Do you think that barrel heat from shooting may have had any impact on performance in either case?


They were tested and loaded when the ambient was 90. I don't think barrel heat was a factor because it took time to readjust the powder measure and load the next rounds for testing. In the 20 degree match there is considerable time between shooting. I load the competition rounds to be as light as possible, being the "gamer" that I am.

JBinMN
01-01-2018, 03:08 PM
It is true that some powders are susceptible to detonation due to reduced loads. I don't have experience with that. I think a search for that might turn up some info.
There are plenty of powders out there that are known to work fine with reduced loads. Those would be a good place to start.
That is why people were asking for details about what you had to work with, so they could make recommendations about what might be best out of what you already had.

There will be issues that relate to some powders but not all.
As in lots of things reloading, the particular combination may work differently than a general application. You can't make many general statements about reloading combinations that apply in all circumstances. So much depends on how your specific weapon reacts to the components used.

I understand. As I said, I was trying to avoid adding too much info & then complicate things by doing it.

Simply put as best & briefly as I can.
If folks want specifics, I would prefer to answer what specifics folks might need to know , rather than just post up a list of handguns & rifles, a list of powders, a list of primers and other component such as boolits/bullets, etc.. & then sort thru all sorts of combinations all at once. I was trying to keep it general and as simple as possible.

I have mentioned how many handguns & rifles that I use metallic cartridges in, & approx. how many different powders I have currently to work with, as well as that I am currently working on Red Dot, 700X & Clays as the three powders in particular at this time for "reduced loads" in the handguns.

I did not want folks to limit themselves to just those 3 powders if they had insight on other powders & similar information in regard to the subject. All info is welcome as far as I am concerned as it lends perspective to the "whole picture" as it has been put before.

I think any techniques, data and/or resources that could be applied to any powder( or combinations of components) would help provide insight on cold weather testing of those powders( & components).

As well as info on how "plastic" parts perform, and such..

I appreciate your help in trying to get more info & I am open to trying what might work to get folks to help out.
:)

JBinMN
01-01-2018, 03:22 PM
Based on my arctic experience I really don't expect to see you testing in temps cold enough to break any of your "polymer" gun parts.All this testing will take some time.Can just see recording the data as well as fumbling loading cartridges in extreme cold with or without your mittens on.Will there be any attempt at recording group sizes also or just testing for pressure/velocity?If you pursue this you,sir,are a lot more stubborn and hard headed than I am not to mention a LOT tougher.Good luck

As far as temp extremes, I can attest that MN has its' extremes for both lows & highs. But I agree, when it gets to a certain point of cold or hot, I prefer to find something else to do than shiver or sweat a lot outdoors now a days.
;)

As far as doing the testing & time. Yes, I know it can & that is why I plan to do just a few powders & then combinations at a time to try to keep things simple & not overwhelming.
:)

Recording the data is fairly simple since the Caldwell Ballistic Chrony I have lets me hook to my cellphone & record the data as well as being able to "do the math" & then send it to my computer or others folks I choose to share it. It records velocity, Sd, MV, etc.. Group sizes would have to be with photo/video if I were to share them. To my thinking...The hard part is going to be keeping things warm enough to work with the electronics & not changing the temps from cold to warm to cold to try to prevent much condensation, as well as if the equipt will perform out in the cold. I know the phone does, but not yet about the chrony. Dealing with loading & such with the firearms, I have practice/experience there & do not expect many issues.

Ammo temp will be another part of the experiment(s) if I am going to go "whole hog" about it. testing ladders in which the ammo is acclimatized to the ambient air as well as at a set temp of my choosing such as 50F, kept in a warm vehicle or the like. Barrel temp can be somewhat controlled by using time & ambient( cold) air to keep that from being a factor.

I do not have the means to test for pressure, ( and that is a concern as well) but I do know how to recognise what "visible" overpressure signs that might happen. It would take someone who has that sort of equipt. to be able to test in that regard. I am just testing these , mainly reduced loads, and having that info about "temp. sensitivity" is what I thought I would ask about to prevent anything getting an over pressure due to the powder used.

Lastly, yes I am a stubborn/hard headed feller & some have called me "tough" on more than one occasion. LOL I guess it is just on how we look at things though, isn't it.
LOL
;)

Thanks for posting!
:)

JBinMN
01-01-2018, 03:28 PM
They were tested and loaded when the ambient was 90. I don't think barrel heat was a factor because it took time to readjust the powder measure and load the next rounds for testing. In the 20 degree match there is considerable time between shooting. I load the competition rounds to be as light as possible, being the "gamer" that I am.

Thanks for filling in the details & answering questions!
:)

I am aware that barrel temps, as well as ambient air, altitude, etc., can have an effect on quite a few factors in our "sport" or "craft" to include reloading & casting & even particularly so for BR shooter & other certain competitive doins. That is why I asked about it. Even though I am not what folks call a "competitive" shooter, I imagined there would be some time delay with the colder temps as a factor & maybe even the other way around in the hotter temps. All supposition though, until ya cleared it up for your particular situations.
:)

Thanks again!
:)

OS OK
01-01-2018, 04:08 PM
This post could be helpful in a couple of ways...for one, getting a list going of powders that we are warned not to go light with...powders we shouldn't load below minimum's in the books...

* 296
* H110

I haven't seen the printed warnings on either of these but they have come up many times in posts...

Shiloh
01-01-2018, 09:58 PM
-30˚ wind chill here.

Shiloh



Thanks for the help out so far!
:)

BTW, It was -41F with wind chill here yesterday morning at around 0800/ 8 AM. Balmy, eh?
;)

Anyway, Most of my handguns are steel, but the one I was most concerned about with the "polymer", "synthetic"....Well, "Plastic parts" is the missus Ruger LCR 357. It has that body that I would be concerned about cracking, or something similar, like what MUSTANG mentioned about the encrypted phone. The only other firearm I have that is mostly "plastic" is a HiPoint .380. Cheap enough though & with its warranty to have no issue with getting it fixed if it did break. Since the other handguns are all steel except for grips, IIRC, they should not be an issue for cold weather for the most part.

As far as boolit lube, I use 45/45/10 on some & pan lube with a homemade lube mix of Johnsons pastewax, paraffin from candles, vaseline & some other stuff.
I will keep an eye on how they work out.

For firearm lube, I have a few different oils/lubes I use. Hoppes gun oil sometimes, Rem. spray lube sometimes, among other lubes. All have been tested in colder weather than what we are now experiencing (down to -25 or more), so I am not too worried about them. Light coat is fine. BTW, I have also used powdered graphite a couple of times, in certain "wear" places, but not often.

As far as powders... I think I am going to email or call the makers of the powders I use & ask them directly about the temperature sensitivity of the ones I currently have & use. I would appreciate "personal experiences" though, and am hoping that some folks may post what they themselves have used as well. That was a big part of why I posted the topic. For the input of the vast experience of the members here. As some folks say, "the more the merrier.".
:)

I have been thinking about some other things in regard to temps & its' effects on powders...

The way I understand it, as Tazman mentioned, that loads worked up in colder temps may have issues with overpressure in higher temps. Now, when I think on that , I can understand expansion & contraction of materials due to cold thru warm/hot temps, but that brings me to ponder on a couple things...

If ya have 3.0 gr. of "Powder X" ( "X" being any powder) in a case & it is within the "specs" for a safe load in a cartridge per a load manual. how is it that there is a difference in that round regardless of when/where it was "loaded" & the temp where it is eventually fired? 3.0gr. is 3.0 grains. If it was loaded , either by a reloader or a factory & the temp was 68F inside the home, shop, or factory, why should it make a difference when it is 10F or 100F? What changed in the chemical makeup of that powder over the range of temps? If it were a "volume" expansion or contraction due to temps, would that not have been noticed & mentioned before by someone?

Additionally, why would it matter if the powder was loaded in 10F and fired in 100F or vice versa, if the powder amount of 3.0gr. remains the same? I do not recall seeing in a manual that one needs to adjust the powder amount due to temp ranges & sensitivity... Has anyone else read about it in one of their manuals? Why is there no "notice","caution" or"warning" on boxes of ammo stating that there is could be a difference in the pressures of the rounds inside the box if they are fired at any temp extreme? Maybe it really just doesn't matter all that much???

I am wondering if it just isn't that big of an overpressure issue anymore. Perhaps modern powders have been chemically altered to not cause enough difference in pressure/velocity/etc. for it to make a difference like it did in the past when cordite was used more & amm loaded in colder climes then sent to warmer climes had issues with case expansion after firing & the difficulty with case extraction that followed...

Another thing I have pondered is just how much effect does ambient temp have on the temp of the encapsulated powder. If one takes some rounds from their house loaded at 68F & then goes outside where it is 10F, gets in the vehicle (warmed & kept at 50F or so ( whatever temp you can get) & drives to a range 45 minutes away in the heated vehicle & then sets the ammo on the bench, the ammo is likely at a temp relatively close to what it was when loaded before it gets fired if the ammo is not exposed to the cold for an extended period of time. ( You could say the same thing towards the opposite and using AC when going to a hot place to shoot when it is 100F)
What effect would that be on the ammo loaded at 68F?
What about ammo loaded at 68F & then left in the vehicle to freeze or get cooked and not shot until later?
What about ammo loaded at 40F & left in a shed until it is 85F or vice versa before it is shot?

Really... Is this whole subject just a moot point because the temps really don't have that much effect on the loads listed in the manuals?

Long post, but I am trying to figure this stuff out. Maybe most folks have not thought about it because they go to an indoor range, maybe live in a climate where this is not any issue, maybe never even pondered on it, or maybe just did not care...

If it is an issue, then shouldn't everyone be aware of it? & if it is not an issue, then as "common knowledge" why have I not seen more info about it before now. ( When searching the internet, I still am getting a good bit of "noise" when I go look for answers in a search engine. "Noise", meaning I am not finding a lot of info from "reliable sources" like manufacturers & firearms makers as well as reloaders so far. Seems like not too many folks even care about it, IDK, but I sure would like to know.)

Well anyway, I am trying to learn more & so I am gonna keep asking questions. LOL Hopefully I will find the answers.
:)

Thanks again for the replies! & I hope there may be some more folks interested enough to share or ask even more questions so this might get figured out.
:)

upnorthwis
01-01-2018, 10:40 PM
Wind chill only effects animal tissue. So if you leave a bullet out in -20 degrees in a 50 mph wind, it's still only going to be -20. Although your trigger finger will get really cold.

HangFireW8
01-01-2018, 11:06 PM
.44 mag.,
Your logic is flawed. Mass is not a unit of weight. Weight is a measure of gravitational attraction. A 10 lb. sledge weights 10 lbs. on earth. In outer space it's weight is ZERO but it still has 10 lbs. of mass. A kilogram was originally defined as one cubic centimeter of water. 1000 kilograms of water is a liter.

So... a Liter, which is a little larger than a quart, weighs 1000 kilograms, or 2204.62 pounds?

That's some HEAVY water! :shock:

44MAG#1
01-02-2018, 09:56 AM
So... a Liter, which is a little larger than a quart, weighs 1000 kilograms, or 2204.62 pounds?

That's some HEAVY water! :shock:

This is where someone can know something and understanding what they know is two different things.

GEOMETRIC
01-02-2018, 04:46 PM
Sorry, I make no attempt to be politically correct or for that matter, 100% technically correct. If you don't get it, go get yourself a good physics book or research it on the web. A gram was originally defined as the weight of 1 cubic centimeter of water at standard state. It has since been more precisely defined. Most any grammar school kid knows 1000 milliliters is a liter & a milliliter weighs a gram so a liter weighs a kilogram. If I miss stated that, please accept my apology for the typo. If a milliliter(of water) weighs a gram, a liter weighs 1000 grams or a kilogram. Looking back, I see I am in error as I said a liter weighs1000 kilograms & I should have said a kilogram. I also said a gram is 1 cubic centimeter of water. You do the math. I do sometimes miss state things & I do sometimes make mistakes but if anybody here does not know about that which he speaks, it is not me.
I also see that someone here needs to take a class in English grammar.

44MAG#1
01-02-2018, 04:54 PM
Well you are chomping at the bit to tell who it is so go ahead

GEOMETRIC
01-02-2018, 04:58 PM
Duh, that's obvious & apparent. End of discussion.

OS OK
01-02-2018, 08:13 PM
I just have one question, if you young Bucks don't mind..."Why are you two having a 'peeing contest' right here in the middle of JB's thread? You both are making yourselves look like a couple of goofs...why not take this to PM and have at it there?"
I'll tell ya fellas...the reasons that members have stopped posting interesting threads with lots of pictures and hard evidence for you all to peruse is because you fellas deliberately sidetrack the threads with your 'peeing contest'...your not sticking to the subject is going to cost only you in the long run.

c h a r l i e

HangFireW8
01-02-2018, 09:40 PM
Charlie,

Not sure if I'm one of your Young bucks. But I have found that data and reasoned arguments are useless around here. If the heavies are presenting their cases I just get ignored. If the usual pissants are pissing, someone assumes I am taking sides and I get attacked. Or just ignored.

So now I do two things. Explain reloading truths only to newbies ( which the Heavies will come along shortly, ignore what I say, and restate what I say). Or, poke fun at the pissants by pointing out their mistakes. Either way it's like I barely exist. But hey I'm just a nobody here.

azrednek
01-02-2018, 09:47 PM
I wonder if Elmer Keith ever worried about this?

Why would he?? If Elmer blew up his gun the manufactures would be knocking on his door, giving him new in hopes he'd write about it.

JBinMN
01-02-2018, 09:57 PM
I just have one question, if you young Bucks don't mind..."Why are you two having a 'peeing contest' right here in the middle of JB's thread? You both are making yourselves look like a couple of goofs...why not take this to PM and have at it there?"
I'll tell ya fellas...the reasons that members have stopped posting interesting threads with lots of pictures and hard evidence for you all to peruse is because you fellas deliberately sidetrack the threads with your 'peeing contest'...your not sticking to the subject is going to cost only you in the long run.

c h a r l i e


Charlie,

Not sure if I'm one of your Young bucks. But I have found that data and reasoned arguments are useless around here. If the heavies are presenting their cases I just get ignored. If the usual pissants are pissing, someone assumes I am taking sides and I get attacked. Or just ignored.

So now I do two things. Explain reloading truths only to newbies ( which the Heavies will come along shortly, ignore what I say, and restate what I say). Or, poke fun at the pissants by pointing out their mistakes. Either way it's like I barely exist. But hey I'm just a nobody here.


Fellas...

The topic has already been "compromised" with "extraneous BS".

I am gonna do what I planned to do & just because some folks don't see things the same way as I do, then so be it. I am gonna get as much info as I can get, then weed the "chaff out of the wheat" as is the saying, or something like that..

The only bad thing is... The ones who have the best info will not not post & add their experience or data, because some folks had to "muddy the water" , as they say... They don't want to even get in here to keep out of the BS...

Charlie,
Thanks for stepping up to the plate to try to keep the topic on track.
:)

HangfireW8,

I understand Exactly what you are talking about & feel the same way...

Gonna be a bit more, "prudent" on what I offer... Don't need the hassle either...

Life is too short...


-----------------------------------

Just because I have not been a member here for a long time , does not mean I am some ignorant fool.

I plan to "do what I plan to do", regardless of those who "detract" from the doins..

I see it that a person can either "Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way!", & if folks don't want to be a part... then the Hell with them.

Ya'll take it easy now. Don't get uptight. I am not. Life is too short for me. I will do what I am gonna do.

If ya want to help, fine. IF not, see ya around the block..

Better to be known as helping out than to be known as a Block to more knowledge..

Think on that.
please...
;)


P.S. - As far as I am concerned, this topic is gonna just sit here. Don't see alot of folks wanting to be involved for the knowledge that could be worth knowing...
I do not plan to post again unless I have pertinent info to share about the subject, or someone asks me something in particular...

I will just do my own testing.

G'Luck to ya'll!

tazman
01-03-2018, 12:18 AM
I, for one, would be interested in your results. More data is always a good thing.

toallmy
01-03-2018, 07:14 AM
I am interested as well , possibly a difference in ball powder , flake , or stick powder in big temperature swings . I have been climbing a ladder load for one particular rifle that has reached the top of the book load with a new to me powder , but I'm not going to bulk load this round until I get to try it out in the summer heat .

GEOMETRIC
01-03-2018, 10:57 AM
One of my favorite quotes, "difference of opinion is healthy as long as it is based on knowledge, fact & sound judgement & not hard headed stupidity". Sorry, I didn't mean to start a riff. All I was trying to do is explain the difference between weight & mass & apparently that was perceived as an attack. What I said was not my opinion, it's simply fact but don't take my word for it, do your own research if you are interested. One thing is for sure, I shouldn't have said anything. I didn't mean for this to detract from the thread. I was just trying to educate the peanut gallery. Since nobody is listening to my statements & nobody cares, this conversation, if you can call it that, is not & never was constructive. I thought we could discuss things objectively but I was wrong. I will say no more.

JBinMN
01-03-2018, 02:49 PM
Inquiries have been made to Alliant & Hodgdon regarding if there is a list of "Temp. Sensitive" powders for their products that is available to the public, thru their "contact" system. I am awaiting a response from both.

I am also trying to continue to research thru search engines for sources to gather as much info as I can. I have made some progress. Not enough for me to proceed yet, but some progress anyway.

OS OK
01-03-2018, 06:16 PM
JB...what exactly is the test plan? Objectives? Etc...?

Sorry, I'm kinda lost after all this?

JBinMN
01-03-2018, 08:08 PM
JB...what exactly is the test plan? Objectives? Etc...?

Sorry, I'm kinda lost after all this?

Charlie, my goal was to gather info in general, in regard to "temp stability" of powders, from the folks here who may know, or could lead me in the right direction to know more, & then work with "reduced loads" if it was viable, once info was obtained that might help.

That did not happen.

----------------------------------------
As far as an update about my inquiries to the powder makers. I have rec'd one.

I am not allowed to break confidentiality of the contents of that email, as per the reply "I" rec'd.. ( You will have to ask on your own, if you want more than what I am about to share.).

The person who replied to me did not offer anything more than I already know. Although, I think I could share that using a fast powder, like Clays for example, might be a worthy choice of powder, it being a faster one in the burn rate tables, since all powders are temp. sensitive in some manner or the other...

That is the "gist" of the short reply I rec'd. I have learned more from "researching" the internet than I rec'd in the email. YMMV on that. Maybe someone here "knows" someone and could get a more informative reply than I did... I am not impressed, BTW. But then again, they did not have to reply at all.


I have nothing else to share...

JBinMN
01-05-2018, 03:07 PM
I have now rec'd return emails from the 2 powder mnfrs about temperature sensitivity in their respective powders. The powders I have mentioned before in this topic, are "Temp. Sensitive".

The Alliant Rep. was specific about the "Temp Sens." with 3 rifle powders they make, as NOT being "temp sensitive". Their "rep" was more informative with some specific powders, than the other rep..

472x1B/A
01-07-2018, 03:08 PM
I find this threat very interesting an will follow to the end of testing. Please keep us informed. Good luck JBinMN.

JBinMN
01-07-2018, 03:16 PM
I find this threat very interesting an will follow to the end of testing. Please keep us informed. Good luck JBinMN.

Thanks for your interest & well wishes. I will reply with more info as it is available to me & what I may find in any testing I do. I am still considering whether I will do this sort of Cold Weather/Reduced load, since I am also going to start testing the effects of temperatures on some powders in "book"/manuals suggested loads from Start(min.) to Max., in a year long project.( as per another topic)
I may "piggy back " the 2 projects, but not sure yet. My release of info depends on how much interest there is in what might I find.
:)

I also still welcome any helpful suggestions in regard to doing this sort of thing.

Thanks again!
:)
JB