High velocity rifles and cast boolits

[njc110381]

Hi chaps. I'm getting more keen on casting my own boolits for my .45-70 and have recently moved into the realms of gas checking. This has made me think about maybe casting for other calibres too. Could you offer your thoughts please?

The situation I'm in is that in the UK, we need 1700ft-lbs of muzzle energy to legally shoot deer. Looking into it this means that if I were to cast for my 6.5x55 I would need 2265fps with a 150gr projectile or 2350fps with a 140gr. In my .338 Win mag and the Lee C338-220 I would need 1870fps. That sounds like a lot to ask from a cast boolit? In the 6.5x55 especially?

There must be loads of you on here doing it, but it's very new to me. I've been casting for a while now but only plinking loads for my .45-70. I'd be very grateful for the thoughts of you more experienced guys. I don't want to waste a load of money on equipment if what I can produce won't be up to the job! I just think it would be a great feeling to take deer with boolits that I've produced myself. I can easily make the 1700ft-lbs with a checked 500gr out of my .45-70 and I'm working on that currently, but it's not the rifle that I generally reach for when I go out hunting.

[GhostHawk]

Go bigger and slower.

Laws you poor guys live under suck.

[dverna]

It can and has been done. Bullet fit, bullet quality and alloy become more important. You will not achieve jacketed accuracy. Another option is paper patching.

BTW, do your conservation officers have chronographs and scales to verify the load you are using?

[brass410]

I'm with Ghosthawk big fat boolits stops fast animals pretty nicely. Don't give up if you do the antis win that's "JUST NOT AN OPTION" forge on under your oppression.

[Larry Gibson]

It is best feasible with the 338 and that Lee bullet. Would be quite effective on deer.

[brewer12345]

While we are at it, is a bigger bullet with no meplat (round nose) a feasible option on deer-sized game?

[jcren]

+1. The velocities you are after aren't that high, but to get there requires harder alloys or a lot of creative work with the smaller calibers. The lower velocity and bigger bullet is much easier to find an effective medium.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

yes, I agree that 2000fps isn't that much to ask of a cast boolit, you will need a gas check and a hardness of at least 12-14bhn,( if fit and lube is good) and I think that jacketed accuracy is possible at those speeds, with some experimenting. when you get much faster than 2000fps, maybe then you would start to have more accuracy problems, and would also need a harder (15bhn+) alloy. good luck, you will figure it out fine, with the help of some of the more senior, knowledgable members, such as runfiverun,ghosthawk, and others.-Travis

[Bjornb]

Listen to what Larry Gibson is saying. The 338WM with a 1:10 twist will give you the required amount of muzzle energy while staying below the RPM threshold, giving you sufficient accuracy. The Swede with a 1:9 twist will be moving way too fast for consistent accuracy.

[vzerone]

I wouldn't listen to the rpm stuff. The velocity has already been beaten in the Swede, with the 7.8 twist by the way, countless times over by we know who and others. For his achievements he's been called a liar as has Runfiveruns's daughter for her achievement with a fast twist AR15. The rpm has also been beaten with a 6.5x34MS with an 8 twist. There are loading requirements you must strictly adhere to or you won't be able to do it.

[runfiverun]

Brewer round nose bullets can be very effective on game animals.
I personally prefer a flat meplat of about 60-65% over any other nose type.
just filing a small flat point of the nose of the LEE would certainly help.

in the OP's case I would definitely start with the 338.
it will be a whole lot easier to convince to game warden your following the rules.
35-40grs of 3031-4895-4064 and a 200-250gr bullet should give you what you want.

[vzerone]

Brewer round nose bullets can be very effective on game animals.
I personally prefer a flat meplat of about 60-65% over any other nose type.
just filing a small flat point of the nose of the LEE would certainly help.

in the OP's case I would definitely start with the 338.
it will be a whole lot easier to convince to game warden your following the rules.
35-40grs of 3031-4895-4064 and a 200-250gr bullet should give you what you want.

I couldn't agree with you more. If I had the two calibers the OP mentioned I definitely would go with the 338 as it's much easier to get the muzzle energy he has to have along with the accuracy.

[Yodogsandman]

Those powder coat boys are blowing it out of the water while aiming at the barn!

[Preacher Jim]

fellows it is ok to disagree but keep it friendly and leave name calling out and recognize that each has his own theory. I don't want to come back here

[brstevns]

Every rifle is a law onto itself. You just have to try different things and see if it works. Some of my loads in a 308 win go over 2000 fps with a 180 gr bullet and do 3/4 at 100 yards. In my cousin's rifle the same load might hit a 6 foot circle, go figure !!

[9.3X62AL]

As far as developing HUNTING bullets goes, give the late Bruce Bannister's writings on his "Bruce B Soft Point" casting process for making expanding-point bullets that WORK on critters. I have loads made up in 5 calibers, and the small amount of hunting I did this past Fall got done with these assemblies.

[Larry Gibson]

.....
The situation I'm in is that in the UK, we need 1700ft-lbs of muzzle energy to legally shoot deer. Looking into it this means that if I were to cast for my 6.5x55 I would need 2265fps with a 150gr projectile or 2350fps with a 140gr. In my .338 Win mag and the Lee C338-220 I would need 1870fps. That sounds like a lot to ask from a cast boolit? In the 6.5x55 especially?

......... I don't want to waste a load of money on equipment if what I can produce won't be up to the job! I just think it would be a great feeling to take deer with boolits that I've produced myself. ........

Yes, that is a lot to ask of the 6.5x55.

As mentioned by myself, Bjorn and runfiverun using the Lee C338-220 cast bullet in your 338 Win Mag is the easiest, quickest, surest way to get a very useable legal hunting load of 1870 - 1950 fps that you can consistently load and that will consistently give excellent performance. You won't need exotic equipment you probably don't already have. Regular ternary alloys easily made will do fine.

There is no "theory" to that, it is fact, as multitudes of cast bullet shooters do the same most often w/o any problems. I suggest the use of a medium to slower burning powder in the 4895 to 4350 burning range. If you have those powders available a start load of 38 gr is suggested and then work up to 1870 + fps. In the probable 10" twist of your rifles barrel accuracy should be more than ample for hunting if not excellent up through 1950 fps or so. If you don't have those powders available then you probably have similar burning European powders available there(?). With that larger magnum case if load density is less than 80 to 85% I also suggest a Dacron filler be used.

We'll be glad to assist with any further load development questions. A 220 gr .338 cast bullet at that velocity will be a deer thumper for sure out to 200 yards. Higher velocity is not needed with that combo.

[swheeler]

I concur ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^:drinks:

[njc110381]

Thanks all for taking the time to point me in the right direction. I'll go with the .338 mold next time I'm at the gun shop. I figure I'll need a mold, sizing die and gas checks. I can pick all of those up for about the same cost as 100 .338 bullets so it's not a big investment.

Powder wise I probably have something here. If not the European makers offer plenty of choice so I should be able to find something close to that burn rate. I usually load my .338 with Alliant Reloder 22.

[Larry Gibson]

RL 22 might work though of the RL powders RL19 may burn cleaner. Worth a try though since you already have and use it.

[country gent]

Another route to look into is a Paper Patched bullet. The patch rides the barrel and lead dosnt touch. a softer alloy can be used at better velocities. I believe Col Harrison did some work with 300 win mag and PP bullets at pretty much full velocity in the 60s. I think the was in the rifleman magazine. In the 6.5 it may get you where you need to be, In the 338 it should get you way past where you need to be. A bore dia bullet ( maybe - .001 ) in dia wrapped with 2 wraps of Seth Cole paper ( .0018 thk) will gain .007 in dia. So a .258 bullet wraped with this paper is going to be .265 dia But the lead wont touch the barrel causing problems.

[vzerone]

This is Alliant's load data for RL19 in the 338 Win Mag.

338 Win. Magnum Speer 225 gr SP Winchester 3.3 24 CCI 250 Reloder 19 78 2,944 -
338 Win. Magnum Speer 250 gr SP Winchester 3.3 24 CCI 250 Reloder 19 72 2,664 -
338 Win. Magnum Speer 200 gr SP Winchester 3.3 24 CCI 250 Reloder 19 76 2,806 -

This is all they have for RL22 and just with the 250 grain bullet. That's telling me you should use a faster powder for the lighter bullet, in your case the LEE 338-220 as RL22 needs a heavier bullet to get it burning more efficient and cleaner.


338 Win. Magnum Speer 250 gr SP Winchester 3.3 24 CCI 250 Reloder 22 73 2,653 -

Even the RL19 may be too slow I believe it's around 4831. What powders do you have? You may want to go with a shotgun/pistol powder as the velocity you quoted as needing isn't a lot. If you use a small dose of a lighter fast powder you may want to use a big enough tuff of Dacron that will occupy the space between the top of the powder and base of the bullet. You never want to compress it as a wad.

Those loads with RL19 and RL22 are full house jacketed loads and you surely don't need those.

VZ

[tomme boy]

RL19 will work fine if you have it.

[vzerone]

RL19 will work fine if you have it.

Tomme it's not whether the RL's would work or not he just doesn't need to have a full house load, at least he didn't say he did. He mentioned 1850 fps or there abouts. I'd rather take a little fast powder then reduce a very slow burning powder. RL22 is very slow and like I mentioned RL19 is around 4831. I use a full case of RL22 in the 7.65 Argentine and it's great. I have Gunfreak trying it and he's getting good results.

[runfiverun]

R-19 backed down to about 47.0grs with a 1.5-2.0 gr. Dacron filler would give about 2250-2300 fps.

[Larry Gibson]

R-19 backed down to about 47.0grs with a 1.5-2.0 gr. Dacron filler would give about 2250-2300 fps.

That's why I figured a start load of 38 to 40 gr would get the OP down into the 1800 +/- fps range so he could work up.

[njc110381]

Thanks again chaps. I don't have the powders listed but had a look at the Lapua burn rate chart. I do have H414 (quite a lot of that actually!) and Viht N140. Faster still I have H335 and BLC-2.

I used to use a lot of Hodgdon powder but am thinking ahead. Unless I already have it there's no point buying more to work up because the supply will dry up pretty soon.

[Larry Gibson]

If the N 140 is an extruded (?) powder I would try it 1st instead of the ball powders. It is supposed to be comparable to Varget, 4320 and RL15 which is a good burning rate for what you want. Assuming (?) you have magnum primers to use which is okay starting low and working up. I suggest a start load of 38 gr with the Dacron filler.

The H414 can give inconsistent ignition at lower pressures. Thus I suggest if the N 140 doesn't work try the H335 and then the BLC-2.

Do you have a chronograph?

[runfiverun]

414 is better at a case full with some slight compression.
that would be waaay too much.

36grs of the 335 with a filler might be useful here too.

if the N-140 IS right near varget my original [3031-4064] loads with the filler would still apply as far as velocity, I'm not really familiar with the powder.

[tomme boy]

I would stay away from the ball powders if you can. I just do not like them with a reduced load. I really like Varget for lots of calibers.

Larry, what about some of the 20mm and 50 cal powders? Would it work?

[runfiverun]

something like 68grs of AA-8700 would get him near 1850-1900.
I would use a bit hotter primer.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Thanks all for taking the time to point me in the right direction. I'll go with the .338 mold next time I'm at the gun shop. I figure I'll need a mold, sizing die and gas checks. I can pick all of those up for about the same cost as 100 .338 bullets so it's not a big investment.

Powder wise I probably have something here. If not the European makers offer plenty of choice so I should be able to find something close to that burn rate. I usually load my .338 with Alliant Reloder 22.

I used Reloder 22 quite a bit in my .300H&H, with excellent results. But I think it is too slow to give good performance, or perhaps even safety, with a part-filled case - and Dacron or kapok are part-filled cases, as far as volumetric ratio goes. I would much prefer a slower powder.

I agree, the .338 is a far better way of trying for that 1700ft./lb. than the 6.5x55,, and should be thoroughly effective on deer at a velocity that just achieves it. At such velocities a medium-hard alloy, with the malleability of more tin than antimony, should be very satisfactory.

[Larry Gibson]

Tomme boy & runfiverun

Probably would work with those really slow powders but I was sticking to what powders the OP had or were possibly available him being in the UK.

[Larry Gibson]

I used Reloder 22 quite a bit in my .300H&H, with excellent results. But I think it is too slow to give good performance, or perhaps even safety, with a part-filled case - and Dacron or kapok are part-filled cases, as far as volumetric ratio goes. I would much prefer a slower powder.

I agree, the .338 is a far better way of trying for that 1700ft./lb. than the 6.5x55,, and should be thoroughly effective on deer at a velocity that just achieves it. At such velocities a medium-hard alloy, with the malleability of more tin than antimony, should be very satisfactory.

Not being critical of your post as I certainly agree with it, just pointing out something many do not understand.

One aspect with the proper use of a filler such as Dacron, kapok and Grex is that it acts as a case capacity reducer. That lowers the volumetric ratio. This is born out in the better ES/SD fps and higher velocity readings when a filler is used vs not used with a given load. It also is demonstrated with actual pressure readings where the time/pressure curve is measured. With a given load w/o the filler we many times se an uneven, erratic or pressure spiked pressure trace. With the same load using the filler the pressure trace smooths out showing an even progressive burn rate.

My recommendation, based on many such time/pressure (pressure trace) measurements with a variety of loads using various medium to slow burning rate powders is to use the filler if the load density of the powders is less than 80 - 85%.

[vzerone]

He may not have access to the slow surplus ball powders in the UK. I'm sure some load if it would work, but one thing I don't like about that ball powder is it burns extremely hot.

I gave 414 powder one try many years ago and didn't like it at all. I shot the remainder of it up cast 30-40 loads.

[swheeler]

I think I WOULD try the H414 with a dacron filler and a magnum primer, start at 40 grs and work up to your target velocity. 1800 fps would be my guess for the 40.0 gr loading with enough well fluffed dacron to fill the space from the top of the powder to the base of the bullet very lightly compressed by the bullet. You should be able to maintain hunting accuracy to 1950-2000 fps if you cast GOOD bullets that fit the throat of your rifle. Published data for cast in the 338WinMag only has data for a 209 gr(actual weight)cast and H414 with a mag primer, don't remember exactly but seems my 220 Lee cast of wheel weight weighs 217 fully dress with check and lube, close enough to 209 for Gov't work!:shock: Good luck and keep us posted.

I just weighed a few of the Lee 220 gr cast of wdww 218gr

[runfiverun]

I don't know Scott if I were to try it I would use a much denser filler than Dacron with the 414.
it really needs good initial resistance to burn well.

[Bjornb]

I have that Lee Mould for the 338. I'll cast up some and try shooting them in my Goodsteel-built Tikka T3 (Tim's first carbon fiber-wrapped barrel; very cool). I have all the powders discussed here, including the whole battery of MilSurp 20mm powders (WC867, 870,872). I'm a little curious as to how it'll shoot with cast.

(For those who may be interested, that mould casts the go-to bullet for the Austrian M95 push-action carbine in 8x56R. Sized down to .335. A tip from Buckshot that worked like a dream).

[Bjornb]

I don't know Scott if I were to try it I would use a much denser filler than Dacron with the 414.
it really needs good initial resistance to burn well.

Totally agree. It would be a candidate for Buffer or COW. H414/W760 is a scary powder. Gave great velocity in the 30XCB but ES and SD were all over creation.

[swheeler]

I don't know Scott if I were to try it I would use a much denser filler than Dacron with the 414.
it really needs good initial resistance to burn well.

If you were talking about BLC2 I'd be more inclined to agree;) I think it being a published cast load without a filler it would at the least be worth a try, may not be what your looking for but worth a try especially when the OP has lots of it on hand. No COW for me in a bottleneck and the PSB?? sounds like a LOT of it to finish filling the case that is 65% full of powder. Just my .02

[Larry Gibson]

If considering the really slow ball powders such as WC860 a look at the duplexing test I did for waksupi in the 375 H&H might be worth a look?

[vzerone]

Geesh I may have to agree with you swheeler. Far as COW I have no use for it what so ever. Now PSB is a totally different animal then the BPI buffer that's like powdered sugar which doesn't flow. The PSB does flow and very well and the advertisement for it states how it flows and get between the shot. Now as to whether I would want a lot of anykind of filler in that bottleneck 338 case a big NO.

[gunlover]

Larry that surplus powder indeed might be worth looking at, but I'm afraid the OP may not be able to buy those surplus powders in the UK do to ITAR regulations.

[Larry Gibson]

Gunlover

Yeah, I figured that and mentioned earlier the OP may not have that type of powders available to him. Seems like the thread is morphing in the direction of those powders anyway.......sometimes we just can't keep threads on track......:sad:

[swheeler]

Geesh I may have to agree with you swheeler. Far as COW I have no use for it what so ever. Now PSB is a totally different animal then the BPI buffer that's like powdered sugar which doesn't flow. The PSB does flow and very well and the advertisement for it states how it flows and get between the shot. Now as to whether I would want a lot of anykind of filler in that bottleneck 338 case a big NO.

Cream of Wheat is great for breakfast, but not in reloads as filler! I've used corn meal in my 12 ga punkin ball loads, but it's inside the shot cup. The OP has more going for him than he thinks with the powders on hand and believe every one of them could be used to some degree of success with cast in the 338WM, he'll definately learn his way around fillers. Larry's suggestion of RL22 and dacron would be my second choice, blc2 would be my last but have used it too with dacron with good results but in a much smaller case. Hopefully the OP will report back with good news and share his loadings, best of luck. swheeler

[tomme boy]

Isn't wc870 the same powder as H870? Might cross with ADI??

[vzerone]

Isn't wc870 the same powder as H870? Might cross with ADI??

tomme all those powders WC 870, H 870 and I believe 8700 are supposed to be the same, but I believe there are some differences between them. Just like WC 872 and WC 867 are said to use the same load data and think it was Wideners to name one said to use 8700 data. Well that I definitely don't agree with. Shooting 867, 872, 870, and 860 out of the same rifle with the same grain load and same cast bullet they listed more then a difference in velocity over the chrono. The list from the highest velocity to the lowest is : 867, 872, 860, and 870. Now that is with the lots that I have. There was quite a bit of difference in velocity between 867 and 870. There was enough difference between 867 and 872 that I wouldn't swap max loads between the two. Also when you use a powder measure to throw your charges you have to reset it for each of the different powders to get the same charge weight.

I remember when Hodgdon sold the H870 as a canister powder as I bought much of it for 30-06 cast loads.

Hope that helps some.

[Regulator.]

...As mentioned by myself, Bjorn and runfiverun using the Lee C338-220 cast bullet in your 338 Win Mag is the easiest, quickest, surest way to get a very useable legal hunting load of 1870 - 1950 fps that you can consistently load and that will consistently give excellent performance. You won't need exotic equipment you probably don't already have. .......

Not personally played with the .338 bore nor have any experience in the caliber with cast, looks like a easier path.

[Bjornb]

No COW for me in a bottleneck and the PSB?? sounds like a LOT of it to finish filling the case that is 65% full of powder. Just my .02

You may very well be right Scott. But that's what testing is for. I'll give it a shot, no pun intended. Long time, hope you're doing well.

[swheeler]

Thanks for asking, life is good. Testing would be nice and I'm sure our fellow caster across the pond would greatly appreciate the help.

[njc110381]

I do have a chronograph available to me at the range. I have magnum primers too, although I don't remember the make. I'll start off trying N140 and see how it goes. I'm not likely to get any results until February though sadly as that's the next time I'll be at the range.

I'll post up my results as and when I get them. I need to find .338 gas checks and a sizer first - it's really not a common calibre here!

[Larry Gibson]

njc110381

Sure would like to help you out with some stuff but getting it there, if not impossible, would be cost prohibitive......:cry:

Looking forward to your test results.

[swheeler]

Here is the RCBS Cast Bullet Manual data, pg 88

Win M70 24 inch barrel-1:10 twist
W-W brass
CCI 250 Mag primer
bullet 33-200-FN- as cast weight 209grs

H414 start 43.0-1897 fps, 45.0- 2003 fps

Their data doesn't use a filler. Since you have a good supply of this powder I would give it a try, your bullets should be 9-10 grs heavier at most?

[richhodg66]

Nothing really to add, I think you can do what you need to do with that .338 and Lee bullet pretty easily. Based on my experience on deer using .30s, .32 and .35s, you shouldn't have any problems.

What kind of deer do you hunt in the UK? Are they as big on average as our white tails here in the US?

[njc110381]

Thanks Larry. I'll find a way. Nothing is impossible - Midway have a UK outlet if I'm stuck. Expensive once taxes have been added but possible at least.

We have five species of deer here. Only one of which is considerably bigger than a whitetail and I don't have the big ones in my area anyway. The ones by me grow up to about 125lb. Reds make 450lb or so but are really only around in Scotland or the very south of England. I've only shot two of those out of my thousand or so total deer count, so they don't need to be considered.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Not being critical of your post as I certainly agree with it, just pointing out something many do not understand.

One aspect with the proper use of a filler such as Dacron, kapok and Grex is that it acts as a case capacity reducer. That lowers the volumetric ratio. This is born out in the better ES/SD fps and higher velocity readings when a filler is used vs not used with a given load. It also is demonstrated with actual pressure readings where the time/pressure curve is measured. With a given load w/o the filler we many times se an uneven, erratic or pressure spiked pressure trace. With the same load using the filler the pressure trace smooths out showing an even progressive burn rate.


I think all of that may be explained by the distribution of the powder in the case, and variation in the consistency of ignition, when there is or isn't an airspace. Fillers such as cream of wheat have bulk, and do alter the volumetric ratio. (there may be a problem with jamming in the case neck, but it should be harmless with light loads.) The light, fibrous fillers have almost no volume when they are penetrated by the powder gases, and their effect on the volumetric ratio is very small. Kapok fibres in particular are tubular and air or gas filled, hence their use in life-jackets. So under pressure they have virtually no volume at all. They have their uses, but I think it is with small charges of fast-burning, easily ignited powders, which don't build up a pressure wave like the slow ones can.

It is a long time since I have used them, but the cigarette filter tips available in the UK used to be filled with precisely-measured and longitudinally aligned doses of what I believe was kapok. I used to insert a couple, one at a time, in case-necks, and slit the wrapper with a little model bayonet stamped "Ypres". Some charred and much shortened fibre pieces emerged at the muzzle, but most of it just burned up.

[gunlover]

I think all of that may be explained by the distribution of the powder in the case, and variation in the consistency of ignition, when there is or isn't an airspace. Fillers such as cream of wheat have bulk, and do alter the volumetric ratio. (there may be a problem with jamming in the case neck, but it should be harmless with light loads.) The light, fibrous fillers have almost no volume when they are penetrated by the powder gases, and their effect on the volumetric ratio is very small. Kapok fibres in particular are tubular and air or gas filled, hence their use in life-jackets. So under pressure they have virtually no volume at all. They have their uses, but I think it is with small charges of fast-burning, easily ignited powders, which don't build up a pressure wave like the slow ones can.

It is a long time since I have used them, but the cigarette filter tips available in the UK used to be filled with precisely-measured and longitudinally aligned doses of what I believe was kapok. I used to insert a couple, one at a time, in case-necks, and slit the wrapper with a little model bayonet stamped "Ypres". Some charred and much shortened fibre pieces emerged at the muzzle, but most of it just burned up.

Ballistics in Scotland that is a wonderful assertion especially on the light fillers such as Dacron and Kapok. I was wondering when someone was going to wake up and point this out. Ballistics in Scotland I'm not saying you woke up sir, you have been aware of this for some time. Your knowledge never ceases to amaze and I look forward to each and every one of your posts.

[Larry Gibson]

Here's how it works;

If we put a given charge of powder in a .308W and a 30-06 under the same bullet with all other factors being equal the load in the .308W will generate a higher pressure and a higher velocity. Why? simply because the .308W has less case capacity (volume) than the 30-06. If we pre-position the powder in both cases the same the results will be the same; more pressure and higher velocity for the .308W. That is fact, not what I think. It is fact because both pressure and velocity are measureable and I have measured both. It is a ballistic fact that all ballisticians and most laymen understand; for a given velocity a larger case (volume) will produce less pressure. Load both a 30-06 and a .308W with the same powder/bullet to the same velocity and the 30-06 will have less pressure. There are many, many examples of cartridges being made so they will have lower pressures with larger case capacity for a given bullet at a given velocity than other cartridges, many of the large African cartridges of yore for use in tropical heat are prime examples. It's why many .416s (example) of today are touted as "equaling" the 416 Rigby velocity with the same weight bullets......they do that in their smaller cases at much higher pressures.

Now let's take the .308W with a given cast bullet and use 4895 powder. A given charge pre-positioned in 3 different locations will give 3 different pressure/velocity results. Let's pre-position the powder against the primer and then do the same but use a small Dacron or kapok wad. The load with the wad will again have higher pressure and velocity. Perhaps not by much but the increase will still be but the ES an SD may or may not be less. Now, lets take the same load and put a proper filler of Dacron or kapok that fills up the air space (empty volume) in the case. The resulting pressure and velocity will have a marked increase and the ES and the SD will most often be improved. This happens because we have held the powder in a more consistent position against the primer and because we have reduced (noticed that is "reduced", not eliminated) the volumetric ratio.

Please recall I do not recommend the use of fillers with fast burning powders. The use of a correct burning rate of fast powder that ignites easily and uniformly does not require a filler for best internal ballistics.

Those results are what I have measured from repeated tests in numerous cartridges using a Dacron filler where it is beneficial to uniform internal ballistics.

So please, for the sake of discussion, if you have documented test results demonstrating a Dacron or kapok filler (not wad) does not alter the volumetric ratio then would you please post those test results? If you have test results that prove me wrong excellent, I welcome learning. That's how we all learn and improve on our cast bullet shooting endeavors. Proving what we think isn't always right and proving many of my own original cast bullet beliefs ( learned through reading as much as I could years ago and still do read) wrong or partially wrong has led me down a path of knowledge that still continues. I've come to accept that many times what we "think" just isn't so. Here and on other sites I endeavor to pass on the knowledge I've gained from factual results gained through comprehensive testing.

Also much of what I think I know today isn't what I thought I knew in the past. I doubt if all what I think I know today will be what I know in the future. It continues to be a learning experience. Additionally, I've also come to understand we learn best based on facts gained through actual testing, not supposition. So, again, if you've some factual test evidence to prove me incorrect please present it.......I wish to continue learning.

[tomme boy]

I like to use coco wheats as it seasons the bore. Your mileage may vary

[swheeler]

If it wasn't for dacron as a filler/ powder positioning my use of medium speed powders in reduced loads would be greatly diminished, especially medium-med slow ball powders. I am not one to shoot click-bang loads that have triple digit extreme spreads with cases covered in soot from neck to head(you say increase the load- I'm usually shooting for a velocity at or below the RPMT- yep I said it;-)). I can use a little dacron fluffed to fill all the air space between powder and bullet base and cut ES in half, get good consistent ignition and clean up the burn while maintaining my target velocity. I also believe it has some benefit in sealing the bore/ conditioning bore. I have and use PSB in the form of BPI original buffer, but I use far more dacron. Just like Larry I do not use it with fast shotgun powders. JoAnn's Fabric thinks I'm a quilter!!:bigsmyl2:

[tomme boy]

I stopped using it because my fingers don't like to work well with adding it. I just changed the powder type to fill the case more so I did not have to use it. But it really works. I had some extremely accurate loads for my 308win but I HAD to use the dacron. Otherwise it was click............bang. And no one here has even brought up temp. I also had loads that were perfectly fine in 70*+ temps. But use that same load below 50* and it was a click..........bang. That was what led me to the dacron by talking with Larry about what was going on.

[M-Tecs]

And no one here has even brought up temp. I also had loads that were perfectly fine in 70*+ temps. But use that same load below 50* and it was a click......

Just had a click bang with a jacketed load using ball powder and a standard primer. It's my standard prairie dog load. Standard primers give better accuracy for me in the summer and has been 100% reliable. The click bang temp at was a minus 17 actual out calling coyotes.

[tomme boy]

That is why they say to use a mag primer with ball.