New rifle major failure

[MAGA]

The rifle was loaded with only a minimum charge of 60gr each time of Pyrodex RS and I was shooting patched round balls. I hadn’t gotten around to increasing charges as I was just testing ball and patch fit. I shot a couple of .495 round balls and a couple .490 round balls with a 10 and 15 thousandths patch. The last shot was a .490 round ball with pillow ticking patch. All patches were lubed with mink oil tallow from track of the wolf. I also swabbed the bore between each shot.

Maybe 6 shots total

When the failure happened the ball went downrange and struck the target about 1-2 feet low at 50yds.

I could immediately tell something was wrong because the wedge key had no tension and after removing the barrel, the hooked breech was driven hard into the tang and was very hard to remove.


I am confident the rifle was loaded correctly the ball was seated firmly against the charge and the rifle was not overcharged.
From looking at the patent breech, where it broke, the metal looks somewhat porous and I believe that it may have been a manufacturing defect /stress cracked/ and/or overtightened when installed.

The first couple pics are of the rifle before I cleaned it the last pic is after cleaning

I am sent it off this morning I requested it be replaced and not repaired, but we will see

210028
210029

210024210025210026210027

[country gent]

I wonder if the block was "Investment" cast. it has a porous look to it that goes thru the whole cross section. If its an investment casting it may be a flaw in alloy or casting process. Another if a machining might be a alloy that work hardened during machining leaving it brittle.
I'm glad no one was injured when this happened.
You stated a 60 grn charge of pyrodex RS. Was this thrown by volumne with a measure set to 60 grns or weighed at 60grn? Pyrodex is meant to be thrown bya given volumn. A measure is set to throw the charge weight in BP then Pyrodex is simply thrown at that setting, given the same volumne of the charge of BP. Pyrodex isn't as dense as BP so a given weighed charge may be a over charge. I have worked very little with pyrodex as I don't care for the fouling it produces.

[MAGA]

It was poured out of a flask into a treso adjustable powder measure set to 60 gr by volume

[mooman76]

Even if it was by weight, and I'm not saying it was, it would still be well within the load limits.

[MAGA]

Even if it was by weight, and I'm not saying it was, it would still be well within the load limits.


Yep, the other thing is that there is no damage to the barrel, no bulge no ballooning no anything that you would expect to see if the rifle was loaded/ charged incorrectly

[Fly]

Send it back & ask them to replace it. That should have never happened.

Fly

[reivertom]

Looks to me like a flaw and not user error. You should even be able to double charge 60 grains with the barrel staying together. I have never heard of a ML barrel letting go in that particular place.....very strange.

[Edward]

If you would whose the maker as I would like to know ,Thanks Ed

[MAGA]

If you would whose the maker as I would like to know ,Thanks Ed

Investarms /Lyman

[swheeler]

I would say you are lucky you have both eyes!

[MAGA]

I would say you are lucky you have both eyes!

Yes I am! I was wearing some clear shooting glasses am thankful I had them on

[Fly]

Lyman makes very fine rifles, but with any man made thing stuff happens. I,m sure Lyman will warrant your gun, there good people.

Fly (ps) but do let us know what you find out

[R. Dupraz]

Another reason for safety glasses, always.

Especially with ML's

[charlie b]

So, without better pictures it looks like a simple tension failure. That grainy look is what steel looks like when it fails in tension. I might also deduce that the breech might have been over torqued, which would be a contributor to the issue.

[n.h.schmidt]

The Barrel is still good. The threaded part of the breach block is broken off in the threaded part of the barrel. The breach block is the bad part. Man that is unheard of.
n.h.schmidt

[cub45]

Tell them you want two guns, just because.

[bedbugbilly]

I agree with charlie b - it looks like the breech plug may have been over torqued when it was installed. It's no secret that many of these production rifles come from the factory still containing machining chips in the breech, etc. RFD will attest to that and has shown a number of photos in the past in regards to that. If they leave machining chips in, how careful are they when they fit and torque the breech plug in? The fit of the face of the breech plug to the bore is very important and if a machining chip was in the way (just for an example), who knows how they install the plug and how big of a breaker bar they use to put torque on it to line up the flats. As they say, "things happen" and while it doesn't make me want to run screaming in fear, it is a good thing to think about when you get a rifle as far as pulling the breech plug and checking and cleaning everything out of it left from production. And then again, some makers don't want you to remove a breech plug and make sure it is tight and difficult to remove for liability reasons.

It sounds like you did everything "right" and it was just one of those "flukes". But sending it back to the maker I would consider a "must" so that they can inspect it and if there is any possibility that a production run has problems, they can address it. You certainly are entitled to a new gun though I would think. You are a lucky man that you didn't get hurt and they should thank their lucky stars you didn't.

Good luck to you MAGA and thanks for the post as it's a good reminder that "things do happen". Let us know how the maker deals with the problem if you would please. Thanks!

[bigted]

In my past, i have had occasion to have Lyman warrent items for me. I found out first off that a phone call turned out to be invaluable to the process. On the three occasions i have had excellent luck with Lyman and their warranty process.

First phone call concerning their auto powder distributor going on the fritz was iffy in my opinion. The person i contacted informed me that they would make a decision once they received the unit.i wrote it off as i was convinced that being an electronic item ... they would shuffle me off but such was not the case. They stood behind it and i still use it today.

Will be surprised if all will not be successful for you. Good luck and i too am very happy you are unwounded. I will be watching your progress.

[oldracer]

In the right hand picture you can see marks from turning the plug where it was tightened. I agree with the several others that say over torqueing probably caused this? Since there is part of the plug still in the barrel that would cause the hot powder gases to be shot back in your face. I sent the pictures to my "gunsmith mentor" and he feels that was the case also.
John

[Col4570]

A New Plug made from suitable Steel Bar with a smaller centre hole is required.Proof testing after the repair is absolutely necessary.The Beefed up Plug would give that extra safety factor.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

Never liked those Italian breech set ups.

[MAGA]

Update:
I called today and the lady said it was on the bench now according to the computer, so she put me on hold and went to talk to the guy that had it, came back and said they were going to replace it with a new rifle

Haven’t gotten any tracking info yet

Hopefully next week!

[JBinMN]

Good to hear you are gonna have a new & also glad to read/hear you were not hurt.!
:)

I hope ya have better luck with the new one!
:)

[BPJONES]

Great to hear that there is no fooling around or excuses being made.

[Rompin Ruger]

IN all fairness to Investarms and Lyman, Lyman issued a recall on this very thing! Even Midway/Midsourth (I get alerts/ads from both) sent out a "head's up" on it.. it was on SN#s between A 595960 -- A599026 that they issued a voluntary recall!

[MAGA]

IN all fairness to Investarms and Lyman, Lyman issued a recall on this very thing! Even Midway/Midsourth (I get alerts/ads from both) sent out a "head's up" on it.. it was on SN#s between A 595960 -- A599026 that they issued a voluntary recall!

I think they issued the recall because of this. The lady that I spoke to at Lyman said they had never seen or heard of this happening before when I called them after it happened

[Rompin Ruger]

I think they issued the recall because of this. The lady that I spoke to at Lyman said they had never seen or heard of this happening before when I called them after it happened

I guess then we all owe you a double thanks for helping to identify the issue. Unlike some, I love the previously well made Investarms guns... I LIKE hooked breech for their ease of cleaning and such... Mine is a A593 series so I dodged the bullet and haven't yet wrung out what it can do... I too am jonzin for good weather to get back to testing patch thickness and charge for accuracy and EASE of loading...I do NOT want to EVER have to pound a ball down the bbl...

Only trouble I have so far is that my eyesight is not so good with iron sights anymore... Bought the Lyman peep for the GPR...

[Rick Hodges]

Yep recalled the whole series of them, glad you let them know and they will fix the problem.

[Buzzard II]

I had a flint lock GPR on order just prior to the recall. I'm to get my charge card refunded and they don't know how long it will take. TOTW let me know today (Wednesday 21 Feb 2018) I hope this is remedied soon.
Bob

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

midsouth told my friend its going to be 2+ months for replacement barrels to arrive.

[indian joe]

I agree with charlie b - it looks like the breech plug may have been over torqued when it was installed. It's no secret that many of these production rifles come from the factory still containing machining chips in the breech, etc. RFD will attest to that and has shown a number of photos in the past in regards to that. If they leave machining chips in, how careful are they when they fit and torque the breech plug in? The fit of the face of the breech plug to the bore is very important and if a machining chip was in the way (just for an example), who knows how they install the plug and how big of a breaker bar they use to put torque on it to line up the flats. As they say, "things happen" and while it doesn't make me want to run screaming in fear, it is a good thing to think about when you get a rifle as far as pulling the breech plug and checking and cleaning everything out of it left from production. And then again, some makers don't want you to remove a breech plug and make sure it is tight and difficult to remove for liability reasons.

It sounds like you did everything "right" and it was just one of those "flukes". But sending it back to the maker I would consider a "must" so that they can inspect it and if there is any possibility that a production run has problems, they can address it. You certainly are entitled to a new gun though I would think. You are a lucky man that you didn't get hurt and they should thank their lucky stars you didn't.

Good luck to you MAGA and thanks for the post as it's a good reminder that "things do happen". Let us know how the maker deals with the problem if you would please. Thanks!

I agree also - they took it one flat too far to get things lined up - stretched the metal - NOT any fault of the owner - that barrel should easily digest 100grains of FF - unlucky but lucky!

[indian joe]

A New Plug made from suitable Steel Bar with a smaller centre hole is required.Proof testing after the repair is absolutely necessary.The Beefed up Plug would give that extra safety factor.

Not a simple plug !! its a patent breech - send it back under warranty - Lyman makes decent guns they should make this good real fast.

[john.k]

issues aside,the surprising thing about this fail is that the wood stock has held the barrel and broken plug together against the force of explosion.

[Nit Wit]

So, you are the reason for the Lyman re-call! Glad you weren't hurt. They will make it right.
Nit Wit