Help with cast boolits

[jankoz1983]

Hello,
I've been casting round balls few years back, now back into business. I'm casting 500 grain bullets this time though. The mould is Lee 459-500-3R. I bought some lead and mixed it around 20:1 with tin. I'm having werid looking bullets out of the mould. I'm kind of clueless why is it happenening, some bullets are looking like "lead" while other like lead didn't mix properly with TIN.
I'm attacking pictures of bullets and muffins I made (muffin on the left is 8 BHN - almost pure lead, the other one is 14 BHN after mixing tin). The pure lead one looks solid white the one with the tin looks like it had different metals in it.


209957
209958
209959


I started casting bullets and added bees wax which I lit up in order to mix lead and tin however the bullets came out werid. What is wrong with this stuff? Bad alloy, lead didn't mix with tin properly, cold/too hot mold, cold / too hot lead in the pot ?

Btw ALL CASTS CAME OUT OF THE SAME MIX IN A LEE MELTING POT. I added 8 kg of stuff and from the same pot came different results

I added higher resolution pictures here:
https://imgur.com/a/7Nitr

Anyone can help ? :)
Thanks,
John

[243winxb]

Try more heat, pot and mold. But if to hot, bullets will look frosted and smaller in diameter. Play with temperature.

Is there a difference in as cast bullet diameters between the 2?

[jankoz1983]

The diameter is the same, the hardness is the same (checked with Lee hardness tester)
I had Lee pot on 9, it's 3 degrees Celsius in here - maybe too hot ? The mold was heated up too. I casted around 300 bullets so at times it got really hot.
I fluxed with beeswax-not sure if that;s the right thing to do

[243winxb]

Frosted is from to much heat. The first cast bullets will be nice and shiny, till mold gets to hot. Then you get frosted bullets.

Put mold in front of a fan for a few seconds, slow the pace. My guess.

Bees wax ok for flux.

[gwpercle]

As the alloy and mould heated up, the boolits start to look different, the boolits in your hand on the right , look frosted...too hot.
I start with the Lee dial on 8.0, start casting to get the mould up to temperature, drop back to 7.5 and keep casting and look for frosting as soon as I see some I set the dial on 7.25 , I don't have a thermometer so not sure of actual temperature, but all three of my Lee pots worked on these settings. The 7.25 setting my be a little hotter than most but I pressure cast and like sharp well filled out boolits. I like my boolits right at frosty.
Also the boolits will look different at first, they tend to be shinier(boolits in hand on left) but as everything heats up they start looking duller (boolits in hand on right).
Beeswax is a good flux, I use it along with a pinch of pencil sharpener wood shavings.
Try casting at 7.25 or 7.50 on the Lee dial and see how it goes.
Gary

[bdicki]

Maybe too much Kentucky bourbon?[smilie=p:

[jankoz1983]

thanks guys, Ill try to lower the temp :)



Maybe too much Kentucky bourbon?[smilie=p:

Haha, I'm pretty sure that after Kentucky bourbon they would come out pretty perfect and we wouldn't have any problem :)

[243winxb]

I have read on this forum that casting 500 gr bullets come with there own special problems. Fill time, shrinkage maybe more. My heavest is 250gr in 44 mag, using iron molds. So not much help.

Try putting 500 gr in your title, for more replys.

[Mike W1]

I've never cast a bullet that large but I'd expect with an aluminum mold it's gonna get hot real quick. I did quite of bit of casting using a TC to monitor temperatures and it's amazing how much mold temp can vary. I'd really recommend a thermometer and instead of a dial thermometer definitely an electronic one. Otherwise you're pretty much guessing.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

jankoz1983,
welcome to the forum.

Large cavity Lee molds will over heat very quickly.
I cast the Lee 501-440 RF, a mold with similar sized cavity, so I understand your issue.

You want to maintain a consistent mold temperature.
One way to gauge mold temperature is to watch the sprue freeze...it should freeze in 3 to 5 seconds.
Cadence of casting is one way to control temperature, but those large cavity molds heat fast and takes time inbetween pours to cool back down to proper temperature, so I have a small fan moving air over the casting area to cool the mold as I cast.
Hope that helps.

[swheeler]

Looks like after the mold got too hot you got frosting. I don't know how you are testing BHN but pure lead is about 5, pure lead half and half with CWW gives me about 8 BHN

[OS OK]

I set my mould on the bottom of the pot base, that big flat aluminum base really sucks the heat out of the mould. I run in the 3~5 second freeze also but leave it on the plate for another 5 seconds or so to insure the plate takes a lot of heat from the mould.
From there you just have to develop a cadence that works for you and that mould...when they get to looking like the one on the right slow the pace down quite a bit...with the aluminum mould you can run that pot pretty cool to up the pace, that way you are not having to bleed off so much excess heat...I would try 5 on the dial.
Try to get a thermometer to actually know what temperatures your working with, each of your moulds and profiles/weights will require a little bit different timing.

[mrrch]

You cast 300 of those monsters?
Wow, that took awhile I bet and your lead temp was varying

[Tom W.]

As stated before, the ones on the right look frosted. I get the same thing when casting 310 gr Lee for my .44

After a short while I gotta turn down the heat and slow my casting rate to a crawl, and still get a lot of frosted boolits. It isn't going to hurt anything, just looks strange.

[ammohead]

Some years ago I was priviledged to watch BruceB demonstrate his speed casting method. I must say that it was quite impressive gathering a large pile of 44 boolits from a 2 cavity mould in a short amount of time. In order for him to maintain the cadence he quenched the mould befor sprue cutting and opening the mould. He kept a saucer or shallow bowl with a half inch of water in it and a sponge or folded cloth sitting in the water wicking it up to the surface. He would place the mould on the wet cloth sprue down for a second or two resulting in considerable hissing and steam raising. By doing this he did not have to wait for the boolit to harden and the mould didn't overheat from the rapid cycle.

On large boolits, if you cut the sprue befor the alloy hardens completely you will find voids usually in the lube grooves or spot frosting on the ogive resulting in an oval shape where the mould don't fillout. I have avoided this by using Mr Bannisters quenching method with very good results. I expect to hear a litanny of comments against having water anywhere near a casting pot and for good reason. Keep the dish well off to the side and there will be no issues.

[Walter Laich]

I would suggest getting a thermometer, the numbers on the Lee control really don't mean anything.

both groups will shoot fine so use them and don't bother remelting.

Some of us who PC (powder coat) like the frosted ones a bit more. Seems the PC sticks to it better (personally I don't find a difference but there are a goodly number who do)

[swheeler]

I think you will find that if you are casting with pure lead or pure lead and some tin you won't get frosting, they will be shiny with the mold smokin hot, you have antimony in your lead and it is shown by your BHN numbers as I stated above. I cast pure lead minnies, maxis, slugs and round balls with the melt at 800+ and the mold red hot, they are SHINY.

and as Ammohead I use the Bruce B method, have for years now and it works great, especially on those heavy weights, and I do like my bullets lightly frosted

[mehavey]

1. Get a lead thermometer. Keep things at mid 700s, and fine adjust by slowing cast rate
2. The frosted bullets shoot every bit as well as the "silvery" ones. 8-)

[David2011]

SWheeler, you beat me to it.

John, welcome to CastBoolits!

Straight lead and tin wouldn't frost. Pure tin has a BHN of 7 and lead with 10% tin has a BHN of 11.5. It would take almost 19% tin, a waste of good metal, to get to a BHN of 14. You probably have at best wheelweight metal as your lead to get to a BHN of 14. It will only frost with antimony in the mix, further suggesting that you have WW rather than straight lead. 10% tin in WW would give a BHN of 14. There's a Sticky at the top of Lead and Lead Alloys that has an alloy calculator in it.

You don't generally need hard boolits unless shooting at high pressure or velocity and if you do tin is not the way to harden lead. Lyman #2 alloy has 5% tin and 5% antimony and most consider that a waste of tin. Just 2% will give you all the flow you need for good fillout. Antimony is the great hardener and it also aids in hardening if you water drop to enhance hardening. There's also usUally about 1/4% arsenic in clip on WW and that helps with hardening as well.

Fluxing with sawdust cures all sorts of issues. (Hint: this is the most important thing I wrote.)

David

[jankoz1983]

Whooaa, guys. I woke up in the morning, see ****ton of information in here. Thank you all. :)
Yes the lead I was using was a bit harder than the pure one. I had 1400 round balls from back then and it was a lot softer then the one I used so it probably has some mixed stuff in it.
I'm gonna try many suggestions that were mentiioned here and hopefully I'll make it right.

Good thing is I can shoot those ******** :) Still got 39kg of lead to go so it's all fine :)

edit. also look at the muffins, the one on the left is "pure" muffin without adding tin (has BHN of 8, checked with lee hardness testing kit-maybe its wheel weight), the right one is with tin. If it's about antimony, wouldn't the one on left has frost on them ?

edit2 did some testing with temp (I don;t have termometer yet unfortunately) but setting pot to 9 or 4 gave same results, no matter if the mold was very hot or colder (I used a fan to cool it down). When I cooled the mold it didn't fill up properly I feel. The groves were not that clean - more like abit rounded

[jankoz1983]

Ok did some further testing

I've noticed that filling of the mold would take significant time, around 4 seconds, decided to unclog the LEE POT. Ended up in hospital almost dead - nah just kidding :)

This improved significantly the flow. I could fill the form in 1-2 seconds now. Before I did that I checked another method of pouring lead - with a kitchen spoon. It turned out that somewhow it works better than a clogged LEE :) After that fact I decided to unclog the sprout - bullets came out a lot better.

Before all of this I tried to use my "pure" (8 BHN so not so pure) lead to check if it has to do with the mixed TIN or something. Cleared POT from the mixed LED, pourned 8 BHN - same result. After that I started checking filling speed, used spoon, unclogged etc.
Anyway pictures here:

https://imgur.com/a/rMFno

Anyway, I've no idea what that means, maybe I'm just retarded or maybe it's an issue with filling fast 500 grain mold :) Clueless. Let the pictures say for themselves.
I know the spoon bullets aren't the best in the world but somehow look a lot better.

[Dusty Bannister]

You seem to be proving that ladle cast is better for very heavy bullets. And that pretty much agrees with the usual practice. May want to consider a real casting ladle if you are going to make these large bullets. Good observation about the fill rate being a possible factor as well. Pretty sure your lead is a blend of something else as well. Most of us tend to be pretty frugal with added tin. I will mention that when trying to cast with pure lead, I do bump up the temp. For me, I use a PID and cast my usual mix at about 720 but pure lead or lead/tin mix at about 800 for a better fill out. It also seems that ambient air temp and amount of distance between the nozzle and the sprue hole can make a difference. What part of the world are you in? Some can only cast in the open air, and that makes changes in what may or may not work. Dusty

[jankoz1983]

I'm living in Poland, currently around 3-4 degrees Celcius outside. Yes I'm casting outdoors for safety. Bit windy too

[LenH]

Shoot those monsters, a little frost never hurt anything.

I started casting with a PID about 4 years ago and casting became a whole lot more predictable.

Casting outside in the winter can cause problems of it's own, especially with the wind. I have to cast outside also but only in the spring or fall. Summers here are brutal
but if you need bullets you just have do deal with the heat and humidity. But with the cold you are casting in I am wonder ing about the frost on the bullets now.

[swheeler]

4* maybe it's REAL frost!:bigsmyl2:

[swheeler]

SWheeler, you beat me to it.

John, welcome to CastBoolits!

Straight lead and tin wouldn't frost. Pure tin has a BHN of 7 and lead with 10% tin has a BHN of 11.5. It would take almost 19% tin, a waste of good metal, to get to a BHN of 14. You probably have at best wheelweight metal as your lead to get to a BHN of 14. It will only frost with antimony in the mix, further suggesting that you have WW rather than straight lead. 10% tin in WW would give a BHN of 14. There's a Sticky at the top of Lead and Lead Alloys that has an alloy calculator in it.

You don't generally need hard boolits unless shooting at high pressure or velocity and if you do tin is not the way to harden lead. Lyman #2 alloy has 5% tin and 5% antimony and most consider that a waste of tin. Just 2% will give you all the flow you need for good fillout. Antimony is the great hardener and it also aids in hardening if you water drop to enhance hardening. There's also usUally about 1/4% arsenic in clip on WW and that helps with hardening as well.

Fluxing with sawdust cures all sorts of issues. (Hint: this is the most important thing I wrote.)

David

Good catch David, I was wondering when someone would pick up on that!

[243winxb]

Lee 10 pound pot- I opened the bottom pour hole with a drill. I don't remember the drill size. I read it on this forum. It helps fill out , getting more alloy into the mold, faster.

Pressure casting- have the spout in contact with the mold. Watch you dont get sprayed with hot lead when the pot is full.

Maximum heat cant hurt, just makes frosted bullets. Only problem i found with frosted is a little loss of diameter.

When there is unknown* metals in the alloy, more heat has always help me.

Copper can plug the bottom pour spout.

[jankoz1983]

I actually tried pressure casting today without knowing what it is lol
Will try all the ideas
Thanks all

[gwpercle]

I'm living in Poland, currently around 3-4 degrees Celcius outside. Yes I'm casting outdoors for safety. Bit windy too
Casting outdoors when it's cold is tough and if windy , even tougher .... all this presents it's own problems.
I see why you are having problems...too cold outside.
When the weather warms up , casting will be a lot easier.
Gary

[nh7792]

How much tin did you add to get the BHN form 8 to 14? Something's not adding up. As far as dull vs. shiny, that's mostly temp related.
Without a thermometer trying to guess the temp will be tricky, you,ll have to play with the temp until the bullets come out close to perfect, and then mark the temp dial so you know where your starting point is at and adjust accordingly as you go.

[swheeler]

The frosting is directly related to mold temperature not alloy temperature, keep the mold at a temp that casts fully filled out and not frosted, the alloy just has to be hot enough to flow usually somewhere around 100*F above full liquid state

[Tom W.]

Poland? Maybe we're related! All of my grandparents came from Poland. I'm 2nd generation, pure blooded!

[jankoz1983]

Thanks all, already thinking about casting in the garage, will have to figure ventilation first


Poland? Maybe we're related! All of my grandparents came from Poland. I'm 3rd generation, pure blooded!

Haha, maybe we are :) Pozdrowienia dla rodziny :)

[mehavey]

Cast next to/near the fully open garage door.
That should alleviate any problems.