Another Range Story of Stupidity

[Down South]

I went to the the rifle range a couple weeks ago to make a few test shots and verify my scope was still on Zero as I had a rifle hunt to make last weekend.
I was acting range officer while I was there. As I was waiting on my barrel to cool down between shots a group of three guys and two women came and set up beside me.
I called the range cold so they could put a few targets at the 100 yd berm.

Once they set up and I called the range hot again, I noticed they were shooting three different rifles from two benches. One of the first things that disturbed me was I heard one of the guys say to one of the others "Hey you shot my target instead of yours".

What really disturbed me was the two guys shooting different rifles from the same bench is when one said "What Happened?"
He had a fail to extract. They knocked the case out of the chamber with a cleaning rod, then I heard one say, you blew the primer.
I decided that I'd better see what was going on.
As I was approaching their bench, sure enough, I saw a spent primer laying beside their rest.
I picked up the primer, examined it and noticed it appeared to have a very hard firing pin strike to almost rupture.
The guys were looking at the case and another case fired from the same rifle.
I told them to hand me the cases.

Instantly I saw the problem. They had fired a 6.5 creedmoor in a Win 308 rifle. I looked on their bench and sure enough, there was a box of 6.5 CM and 308 Win sitting next to each other.

As acting RO I commenced to chewing butt for having the two different caliber ammo sitting next to each other on the bench and for general stupidity of not paying attention to what they were doing.

I then delegated my RO duties to another shooter, packed up my gear and left.

[skeettx]

Whew, Good call
Mike

[rking22]

Good thing it was a 308 and not 243, might be a tight fit but the STOOPID are determined!

[RogerDat]

We may have to issue you a citation for interference with natural selection. So one question did any of them thank you for finding out why they were on the way to winning a Darwin award and allowing them to avoid that situation? Backside chewed vs. face full of rifle bolt. Hmmm? Yep thank you seems in order.

[MUSTANG]

Perhaps they were new shooters and are in need of a Good Mentor. I usually try and establish if they are morons, or uneducated neophytes. My behavior follows which path is indicated.

[10-x]

Prime example of why one needs to be Very careful who they shoot with.

[georgerkahn]

A couple of decades ago, I was presented the challenge of determining WHY a fellow could not keep on target with his new-to-him .30-30 Winchester 1894. I had it in my hands for less than a minute when I asked for the ammunition he had been using. Yup! His ".30-30" was in fact a .32 Winchester Special. He assumed, from the looks of the lever gun in his hands, and having no knowledge it came in other calibers, bought and shot the .30WCF ammunition in it. Quite a nice fellow, we were indeed both happy no harm was done. I inquired, too, what if his was a .30WCF, and he attempted shooting .32WS in it? He immediately "saw the light", and I'm reasonable certain it was an experience we both felt good thereafter -- I was able to help a fellow shooter, and, he vowed to examine the engraved caliber/ammo requirement on any and every firearm he'd ever, in future, shoot. In my experience, a friendly conversation with a smile is almost always more productive than "chewing butt ". What happened, happened; one cannot rewind the videotape of life -- sometimes a little friendly education goes a long way.
geo

[fatelk]

There is a lot of new gun owners out there with little or no training, scares me a little. Back in the day everyone had hunter's safety training young, nowadays not so much.

Some firm instruction is certainly in order, especially if you're responsible as RO. Personally I think an old-fashioned butt chewing is best reserved for those who really need is. A friend of mine was absentmindedly handling an unloaded handgun on a cold range a while back. He was in the wrong and he knew it as soon as it was pointed out, but another shooter jumped him like a drill sergeant in boot camp, with a genuine butt chewing. My friend was seriously embarrassed and angry, hung his head as he packed up and left. The other guy was right to call him on it, but seriously wrong in the way he did it.

[abunaitoo]

Once in a while we have found .308 straight wall cases.
Seems they shot .308 in a 30.06 Garand.
Never a good idea to have different calibers open on the same bench.
Friend almost died when a rifle exploded next to him.
Tiny piece of metal almost cut an artery.
Spent a week in the hospital.
I think it was .308 in a .270.

[Mr_Sheesh]

Ow.

I have a pair of basically identical Rem 700s but they're 223 and 243, so a round from one SHOULDN'T fire in the other; You can bet I stow the ammo same time I stow the rifle though, if both are with me. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that Murphy isn't out to get you! Clear markings on them helps.

[rondog]

Another reason I love my club, with 25 separate ranges there's rarely a need to shoot near anyone else, unless you're wanting to shoot from 100+ to 600yds. And there's plenty of benches there to spread out.

There's also a separate range out to 500 for lead-only rifles that's rarely used. Getting kinda fond of that one, since it's covered, shaded, out of the wind and near the clubhouse. And I've been shooting mostly leverguns w/cast bullets.

[pill bug]

Yeah, lots of stupid people out there. But times being what they are, we now have a new kind of stupid. That's the kind were the guy is stupid and also crazy. Might be something to think about before acting the drill sergeant and giving a bigtime butt chewing. Embarrassed and angry + stupid and crazy + He's got a gun. Never a good combination!

[Thin Man]

With many new handguns owners taking advantage of expanded right to carry opportunities, I see a lot of this.

In one case a man brought me his 9mm because it would not fire or function reliably. A quick look at the pistol told the story. He went to a local shop that was running a sale and bought his pistol, then came straight to our range. He loaded the magazine and had all the above problems and came to me. When I showed him the rollmarks on the slide that declared the pistol to be chambered for 40 S&W he almost fainted, then got mad. The brand and general model of this pistol is offered in different calibers and the clerk at the store where he bought it did not closely check his merchandise when he picked up a new merchandise box from their stock. The owner went straight back to the seller to get this issue resolved.

More recently, we had 2 ladies on the range who had just bought their first handguns, same make-model in 380 caliber. Both pistols were brought to me completely locked up. The slides would not move and the magazines would not release from the frames. First things first, I confirmed the chambers were empty. I removed the grips on the first pistol and used a pin punch through the magazine to remove the mag from the frame. Inside the top of the mag was one (1) round of .380 ammo, inserted backward. After a good laugh I found the second pistol was tied up exactly like the first. There are many things I could say about lack of prior exposure to firearms, absence of training, etc., etc. but you get the point. These ladies were given a demonstration in correct magazine loading by a range officer, then decided they would wait until another day for their first live fire attempt. Everyone in the store was grateful for that decision.

[FISH4BUGS]

Was it REALLY necessary to "chew their butt" as opposed to educating them as Geo said? Maybe you exaggerated the talk a bit in the retelling of the story? That's OK, but I would submit that if you really "chewed their butt" that is why RO's are not particularly liked at most ranges. ....just sayin'
I had a couple of people bump firing a pistol next to me. I told them nicely but firmly that is very much against the rules of the club and if someone turned them in they would be expelled from the club. They apologized and said they won't do it again. Everyone had a nice afternoon at the range after that.
My grandma always said you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

[richhodg66]

I shoot mostly on my own place now, but the range I shot at for ten years or so and still occasionally go to and sometimes RSO for has always impressed me that guys can run a safe range without being Nazis about it. Generally, the people that come out are pretty receptive to well presented advice too.

I used to shoot on the Fort Bliss Rod and Gun club which at the time, the ranges were unsupervised and we had some real winners show up. I also have occasionally shot on state ranges that were completely unsupervised and anybody could show up and shoot, one about 60 miles from here and one in Missouri when I was stationed at Fort Leavenworth. If I couldn't shake loose from work and go when nobody else was gonna be there, I just wouldn't go. There are some seriously stupid people out there and I don't want to have to watch them the whole time I'm there.

[Down South]

I think most have misunderstood my definition of butt chewing. I never raised my voice or acted like a drill sergeant.
I did point out the danger of having different calibers of ammo sitting side by side on the bench as they had just witnessed.
I also explained that they needed to pay more attention to detail.
I can honestly say that I don't believe either of the gentlemens feelings were hurt.

[buckwheatpaul]

As a RSO I believe you did the proper thing and you can only chew....but getting out of DODGE was a good thing as well unless you evicted them from the line....glad no one was injured......

[fatelk]

Sounds like you did exactly the right thing, in that case.

There's really no excuse for using the wrong ammo. I just don't understand people who go buy their first gun and don't bother with learning the basics of safety and function before trying it out. Don't they understand that it's a deadly weapon, not a new toy?

Only one time have I ever shot the wrong ammo. I brought both a .380 and a 9mm Makarov to the range, and fired a magazine full of .380 through the Makarov. No harm done but I was really embarrassed.

Shooting carries more responsibility that something like golf, for example. Hitting the ball the wrong way is an "oops". Accidentally filling your outboard motor with diesel is an "oops". Accidentally firing your gun pointed the wrong way towards another person is a lot more than just an "oops". New gun owners need to fully understand the seriousness of what they're doing. I'm actually surprised that there aren't more gun accidents with all the new owners in recent years, so most of them must take it seriously.

[RogerDat]

There are folks who are new and make an honest mistake due to lack of knowledge, there are people who know better and slip up just as there are good drivers who might forget to use a turn signal or some other minor but potentially dangerous mistake at one time or another. Most of these folks will be grateful for some assistance or a reminder. Some might be annoyed if the tone of it is demeaning or insulting but most folks I think would rather be warned about an unsafe action or condition than not.

There are however a minority group that are not only willfully ignorant but adamantly sure that whatever they are doing is perfectly fine, not your business, or someone else's fault if it has consequences. Since I am self aware of how little patience I have with this sort I tend to just say what needs saying in as brief a manner as possible and walk away. How far away depends on how stupid the activity is. I met a fellow missing parts of fingers with a couple more sewed back on who was buying reloading supplies at a gun show. He was suing the gun maker because the gun blew up and he learned to reload from a pro and had been doing it for decades so his bullet exploding had to be a gun defect. He also stated that any gun should be able to handle a double charge and the powder he was using wouldn't fit more than a double charge in even if he had screwed up. I think it was a derringer, don't recall the caliber but the explosion ripped fingers off and destroyed some other fingers. So major force and total failure by gun. I asked what about a squib load blocking the barrel? He stated that never happens to him and he used an expensive Dillon press. I moved on but took a long enough look to make sure I will know if I find myself on a line next to him so I can move.

I try to help folks when I can but more than willing to move on when it is clear no point to talking about it.

[Airman Basic]

I've wanted a 7-08 for years but didn't because I don't trust myself! I have a couple of 243s which i shoot regularly. Also, in my cheapness, I reform an inexhaustible supply of military .308 to feed the 243s. I can just see myself mixing up the two. Think it would do more than fireform a 243? Haven't tried a 7mm in a 243 chamber. Hopefully wouldn't work.

[rosewood]

I use W-W stamped .243 brass in my .260. When I re-barrelled the gun to .260, I couldn't find 260 brass anywhere. So all of my W-W .243 brass is dedicated to .260 remington and all of my R-P .243 brass is dedicated to .243 win. I am careful to keep them bagged in separate zip lock bags or boxes with good labeling anyway.

Rosewood

[GEOMETRIC]

That reminds me of the dumbest thing I ever did on a rifle range. I was working for the USFS @ the time. Deer season just opened & I wanted to site in my TC .54 Renegade so I could go deer hunting in the morning so I stopped by the Forest Service range. It was mostly used by hunters sighting in their rifles & I was the only one there. It was getting dark fast & I was having a lot of trouble getting the rifle sighted in before it got dark. I managed to get the rifle loaded in time for one last shot. That shot didn't hit paper! I frantically tried to fire one more check shot but my ram rod was gone! You guessed it, I forgot to take it out in my hast & it got fired down range! Well, I was a kid then, not quite old enough to vote & just returning from Vietnam.
To show how uneducated people can be, I hunted hogs with my brother's father in law who had a model 94 Win. in .32 Win. he won in a poker game. I also had model 94 but in the usual 30-30. We all know a .32 Win. is just a 30-30 necked up to .32 cal. Well, I started reloading rifle & shotgun ammo. while still in High School. I just ran the .32 hulls through a 30-30 die & loaded a .308 cal. bullet in it. Probably not the smartest thing to do but it works as long as you don't get the ammo. mixed up & try to shoot it in the wrong gun. They shot fine but my brother's father in law was sure I was going to blow us all up!

[Mr_Sheesh]

I color code my ammo boxes (The Cabelas or RCBS or MTM or whatever, 50- or 100-round ones, come in various colors so 9mm is Smoke, 45 ACP is Clear, etc.); For the Bolt guns each rifle has its' own color code, and its' own dedicated brass, plus I label the top of each clearly with the caliber the ammo is; In addition to the reloading label. And color-matched nylon wire ties on the scope's body help me double check that the right ammo is in the box for that rifle. Plus I don't put two rifles & their ammo that have the same head diameter, on the bench at the same time. A consistent system can help a lot to keep things safer; Being careful and methodical helps too. (So does not doing anything stupid, I've tried NOT to cultivate bad habits.) Same headstamp always meaning the correct caliber for that brass makes sense.

One of my favorite engineering principles is the "Principle of least astonishment" - i.e. once you understand a system, you don't sit there staring at the person who designed it, saying "What the BLEEP" and feeling total astonishment that someone that ODD can manage to breathe :P Maybe someone else can improve on my systems, but if they saw me using it & understood it, they wouldn't put me up on a list of "idiots who will manage to kill themselves SOON, so be ready to nominate them for the Darwin awards."

[JWT]

I am also a color coded box person like Mr. Sheesh and I never have more than one 'active' gun on a bench at a time.

Many years ago I was shooting a lot of 30-06 (Garand) and also an 8mm Mauser. I did a check with a dummy round and found that an 8mm will chamber in a 30-06 and at a quick glance they look remarkably similar. My safety fix was to give away all of my brass 8mm and replace with nickel as well as using a different color box. I also don't take these two the range at the same time anymore.

[Hannibal]

I've wanted a 7-08 for years but didn't because I don't trust myself! I have a couple of 243s which i shoot regularly. Also, in my cheapness, I reform an inexhaustible supply of military .308 to feed the 243s. I can just see myself mixing up the two. Think it would do more than fireform a 243? Haven't tried a 7mm in a 243 chamber. Hopefully wouldn't work.

I have accumulated. 243Win, .260Rem, 7mm-08, 308Win and .358Win. I have decided to abandon reforming LC 308 brass as much out of concern for what might happen to someone should I make an untimely exit from my life as any mistake I might make in a distracted moment.

[koehlerrk]

I take "color coding" one step further. Cases that are reformed to something not what the headstand says get the head coated with Dykem. Any 223 that's brass is a 223. Any 223 with blue Dykem on the head is a 6mm-223. And all my ammo is put in boxes primer up. Foolproof, of course not, but it helps reduce the chances of a bad day at the range.

[jonp]

Wouldn't that have been a tight fit not to mention how the bullet exited the muzzle?

[john.k]

I break into a cold sweat changing targets knowing that there s teenagers and kids fooling with guns during ceasefire,despite there being two extra RO s put on this time of year.Its a state owned range ,and has to make a profit,as I was told....."a father and a couple of boys will spend average $200 for a day ,and we cant afford to turn that away"........

[bob208]

first a .32 win spl. will not fit in a .30-30 chamber. think about it you are trying to jam a .323 bullet into a .308 throat.
back in the day Remington would put a cartage head n the receiver to show the cal. of the rifle.

[Tom W.]

I have a few different cases that are fireformed for my 30-06 A.I.

Some .25/06,some .270 and a few others that I can't quite remember at this time. I did it because I could, because I enjoy handloading. Because they are already fireformed they won't chamber in a standard .30-06. I do get some strange looks at times if someone wants to see what I'm shooting.

[coloraydo]

They had fired a 6.5 creedmoor in a Win 308 rifle. I looked on their bench and sure enough, there was a box of 6.5 CM and 308 Win sitting next to each other.

I guess I am having a hard time understanding how firing a shorter case and a smaller caliber projectile (6.5 C/m in a 7.62 barrel) is going to pierce and blow out a primer and stick the case. What am I missing here? Inquiring minds want to know.

[JWT]

Wouldn't that have been a tight fit not to mention how the bullet exited the muzzle?

Jon,

If you were asking about chambering an 8mm in a 30-06 take a look at this drawing:
209879

A maximum size 8mm is only 0.0076" larger diameter at the neck than the 30-06 minimum chamber. I checked fit using an issue M1 Garand which would not have had a more generous chamber than the SAAMI minimum.

[fatelk]

An 8mm Mauser round can fit and fire in a loose 30-06 chamber. I know that for a fact. I've never done it or seen it done personally, but have seen the empty brass and heard several accounts of it being done. Darn scary. I'm not going to say it could ever be safe (of course not), but with certain ammo it might not blow up the gun. With other ammo it certainly would.

I have no problem taking various rifles and similar ammo to the range when I'm by myself, but am a bit more particular when going with friends. For myself it's simply a learned instinct to know precisely what ammo I'm putting in a gun, but not everyone is so careful.

[rosewood]

I have a few different cases that are fireformed for my 30-06 A.I.

Some .25/06,some .270 and a few others that I can't quite remember at this time. I did it because I could, because I enjoy handloading. Because they are already fireformed they won't chamber in a standard .30-06. I do get some strange looks at times if someone wants to see what I'm shooting.

When shooting Contender or Encore pistols, I always get asked what I am shooting. Love to hand them 7mm TCU round in .223 brass or a 7-30 waters round in 30-30 brass. They always have strange looks. Then I explain to them how the case is made.

Rosewood

[rosewood]

I have decided to abandon reforming LC 308 brass as much out of concern for what might happen to someone should I make an untimely exit from my life as any mistake I might make in a distracted moment.
This one has crossed my mind also. I am the only person that has a clue what is in my reloading room. Every now and then, I will take any unfired load developing rounds and shoot them at the range so there isn't any random loads for someone else to have to deal with. I attempt to keep all developed loads properly labeled in boxes with the gun they are for if appropriate. Still not sure anyone in my family would know what they are looking at. Guess I should work on this...

Rosewood

[lightman]

They had fired a 6.5 creedmoor in a Win 308 rifle. I looked on their bench and sure enough, there was a box of 6.5 CM and 308 Win sitting next to each other.

I guess I am having a hard time understanding how firing a shorter case and a smaller caliber projectile (6.5 C/m in a 7.62 barrel) is going to pierce and blow out a primer and stick the case. What am I missing here? Inquiring minds want to know.

I'm wondering about this too?

[lightman]

Over the years I have picked up some strange looking cases. Some that come to mind are a few 308 Winchester cases fired in a 30-06 and a few 300 Winchester cases fired in a 300 Weatherby. I'm sure there was no harm done but it made for some strange looking cases!

[GEOMETRIC]

Wow, I lost my reply! I thought it was auto saved but I can't find it.
Bob, yes, you are right, it would be pretty hard to cram a .32 Win. in a .30-30 chamber. The converse is not true but I wouldn't expect any catastrophic consequences. It is truly amazing how much abuse our guns can take without failing.

[GEOMETRIC]

fatelk,
I once had a .308. I liked the cal. but didn't like that particular rifle in spite of the fact that it was very accurate. I always wanted to replace it with a M77 Ruger in the same caliber. I have some cartridges I reloaded for it in military cases. These are not hot loads, they are well within the limits Lyman recommends for military cases & perfectly safe. I don't know how many times I have tried to give them away but nobody will take them because they are "reloads". I guess I can't really blame them for being cautious. That is similar to an experience I had going through Canadian customs in route to a duck hunting destination. There is a fee for bringing shotgun ammo into Canada. The customs agent didn't charge me anything as he claimed my shells were worthless because they were reloads. Really! those shells were loaded with expensive tungsten based shot that would be about 3 or 4 bucks a shell in today's money. I didn't argue. Those worthless shells made some shots that caused the guide's eyes to get big as saucers.

[GEOMETRIC]

Good post Roger,
Some of the idiots that think they understand ballistics never cease to amaze me. We should surely be tolerant of diversity of opinion but as one guy put it, "Difference of opinion is healthy as long as it is based on knowledge, fact & sound judgement & not hard headed stupidity". Ballistics is a very complicated subject. I am no expert but I think I have a working knowledge of the basics. You see this come up more in shotgun reloading than with metallics but one thing that tells me right off the bat somebody doesn't know what he is talking about is when they try to explain internal ballistics in terms of the ideal gas law. The ideal gas law is only valid for an ideal (inert) gas. It pretty well describes the air in your car tires but not what happens in a shotgun or rifle cartridge. When a cartridge is fired, you have a solid changing state to a gas & it is burning. The rate at which it changes state & burns depends on many variables. An ideal gas does not burn by definition.

[Plate plinker]

Wow, I lost my reply! I thought it was auto saved but I can't find it.
Bob, yes, you are right, it would be pretty hard to cram a .32 Win. in a .30-30 chamber. The converse is not true but I wouldn't expect any catastrophic consequences. It is truly amazing how much abuse our guns can take without failing.

Yes modern guns are fairly tough. OLD guns not so much.

[Tom W.]

I saw my dad do that some years ago. I had my cousin's 30/30 and dad had his .32 special. My cousin handed me a box of shells and dad took a few to put into his rifle. We never fired either firearm, just took the shells and 30/30 back to my cousin.

[Artful]

I guess I am having a hard time understanding how firing a shorter case and a smaller caliber projectile (6.5 C/m in a 7.62 barrel) is going to pierce and blow out a primer and stick the case. What am I missing here? Inquiring minds want to know.


I'm wondering about this too?

Head space issue gentlemen look at the picture
https://www.huntinggearguy.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/6.5-Creedmoor-vs-.308-Winchester.jpg
http://www.tactical-survivalist.com/ts-files/images/creedmoor-dimensions.jpg
https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-9cf04aa0f2dee49ba777ac0cc1f9ae7c-c
with 6.5 creedmore inserted into the 308 chamber when the firing pin hits it the cartridge is shot forward, the primer going off has no support so it's
going to back itself out of the case and onto the firing pin (hence the piercing) and the case is going to grab the walls of the chamber but also isn't
supported so it may (crack/seperate, try and slide backwards to the bolt giving a hammering to the bolt and sticking it in place, split lengthwise at the neck, etc)

[GEOMETRIC]

Plate plinker said, "Yes modern guns are fairly tough. OLD guns not so much."

You are right as usual, I can't argue with that except old guns can be pretty tough also. The trouble is you are dealing with an unknown. Unless a gun has been built to a certain industry standard or has been reproofed in a reputable proof house, you are rolling the dice. Personally, I am not going to risk my eyesight & fingers based on an assumption. I make it a practice to err on the side of safety.

That being said, let me quote what a renowned British gunsmith told me, "A good gun can be fired with the appropriate ammunition, a bad gun shouldn't be fired at all". Have you read Tom Armsbrust's pressure tests of old damascus & fluid steel guns in the "Double Gun Journal" or the work of Sherman Bell? Does that mean I am going to run out & shoot modern smokless ammo. in a damascus rattle trap? Hell no!
I have hunted with Sherman Bell & I would have no reservations whatever shooting any of his guns that I saw with the ammunition he was using. I try to make decisions based on sound judgement and fact.
I like quotes & here are a couple more I like. I m not sure they are exact quotes but I think they accurately convey the message:
"One good test is worth a thousand expert opinions", : H.P. White Laboratories.
"it is very hard to convince someone of something they don't want to believe", : can't remember where I read that one.

[Plate plinker]

GEOMETRIC, I too like those quotes. Nice post.

[Down South]

Head space issue gentlemen look at the picture
https://www.huntinggearguy.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/6.5-Creedmoor-vs-.308-Winchester.jpg
http://www.tactical-survivalist.com/ts-files/images/creedmoor-dimensions.jpg
https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-9cf04aa0f2dee49ba777ac0cc1f9ae7c-c
with 6.5 creedmore inserted into the 308 chamber when the firing pin hits it the cartridge is shot forward, the primer going off has no support so it's
going to back itself out of the case and onto the firing pin (hence the piercing) and the case is going to grab the walls of the chamber but also isn't
supported so it may (crack/seperate, try and slide backwards to the bolt giving a hammering to the bolt and sticking it in place, split lengthwise at the neck, etc)

Thank you sir for explaining this. Even though I knew what happened, you did a great job of explaining it.

[Artful]

Thank you sir for explaining this. Even though I knew what happened, you did a great job of explaining it.

Your most welcome

[TAC14]

I would not think that a .263 bullet rattling down a .308 bore would generate enough pressure to do much of anything.

If the 6.5 CM case was so headstamped and fired in a 308 chamber it shuda looked like a short necked 308.

Now a 308 would not fit in a CM chamber .

People who cannot match the correct ammo to the correct rifle should only be allowed to own one rifle.

[GEOMETRIC]

I'll second that thank you. I knew their was a logical explanation but I didn't know what it was. Now I do!

[fatelk]

The one that worries me a bit is accidentally putting a 300 Blackout in a 5.56 rifle. Now that I have each and they take the same magazines I’m especially cautious.

The profile of the bullets I use in the .300 is such that they won’t actually chamber in the 5.56 but I still worry.

[MT Gianni]

I would not think that a .263 bullet rattling down a .308 bore would generate enough pressure to do much of anything.

If the 6.5 CM case was so headstamped and fired in a 308 chamber it shuda looked like a short necked 308.

Now a 308 would not fit in a CM chamber .

People who cannot match the correct ammo to the correct rifle should only be allowed to own one rifle.

In "The Bullets Flight" Dr Mann wrote of a barrel that exploded when the wrong powder was used. The cartridge was a 270 Winchester fred in a 30-06 bbl. I would assume that the excess pressure would pass by the bullet but it did not. Evidently it expanded it enough to fill the grooves and then some.

[TAC14]

Most 6.5 CM powders are also used in the 308. I doubt the CM was loaded with something like Bullseye. .277 is also a lot bigger than .263.

Still wish I had that old 98 from Israel.

[lefty o]

The one that worries me a bit is accidentally putting a 300 Blackout in a 5.56 rifle. Now that I have each and they take the same magazines I’m especially cautious.

The profile of the bullets I use in the .300 is such that they won’t actually chamber in the 5.56 but I still worry.

thats a good way to keep it, as far too many people have blow their AR's into many small pieces firing the 300bo in a 5.56 rifle.

[GEOMETRIC]

I keep telling people ballistics, particularly internal ballistics, is a very complicated subject. Things happen that seem to defy logic at times. I recall making what I thought was a harmless generic substitution loading a nontoxic shot for my 10 ga. Beretta sxs. The shot was advertised as using the same data as lead. The loads shot fine with no ill effects that I could detect. That particular gun is built like the proverbial brick you know what & was proofed in Italy for a much higher pressure service load than the SAAMI maximum. I decided to do what I should have done before I fired any of them which was send it off to get pressure tested. The results came back with a note that said, "DON'T FIRE ANY OF THESE LOADS". That load produced pressure more than 5,000 psi. above SAAMI maximum. The gun is proofed to higher pressure than the SAAMI maximum but not that high. BTW, I never exceed SAAMI maximum even though the gun may be proofed to a higher level, in this case it is proofed to CIP high velocity steel pressure. There is no reason to exceed SAAMI limits as I get all the ballistics I need at that level with less wear & tear on me & the equipment.

[fatelk]

Back when I was young and stupid, and had just bought my first used shotshell loader, I very nearly blew up my Mossberg 500.

The old guy I bought the MEC 600 from gave me a bunch of components; shot, wads, powder, hulls, manuals. I carefully looked up the proper recipe in the book for the components I had and loaded several with increasing charges from minimum to maximum.

The powder I used came from an old Alcan 5 tin. It had something faded written in sharpie on the lid but I couldn’t make it out. As I recall the max for that powder was something like 29 grains for the recipes I was using, so I started at 25 going up. I went out into the garden (I was a teenager on the farm) and proceeded to fire them into the ground.

The first one roared and kicked harder than I was expecting. That was odd, I thought, but I shot the next one. It roared and kicked worse, and the hull came out with the crimp ironed out. Weird, what’s with that? Like an imbecile teenager I shot another. It felt and sounded like a cannon. The action popped open on its own and when I got the hull out the base was bulged and there was no crimp left at all. I finally got a clue and stopped, without shooting the last one.

I went in and double checked my recipe in the book, then started checking all the components. I looked closely at the powder and tin it was in. Try as I might I couldn’t make out what was written on top. I finally turned it over and clearly written on the bottom was “Green Dot”.

I looked back in the book for a Green Dot recipe, and the maximum was something like 22 grains. Am I lucky to be alive, with both eyes and all my fingers?

[GEOMETRIC]

fatelk,
I had a similar experience when I was about the same age. Dad bought a Herters shotshell reloader. I want to say model 79 but I'm not sure. There were no plastic hulls or wads at that time & the loader came with an adjustable powder & shot measure. You just adjusted the powder & shot the measure threw by using the correct no. of spacer discs. The data called for "X" amount of powder for "X" amount of shot & that was it. All the wads were card & fiber filler wads that you adjusted by trial & guess. Then Winchester came out with their AA compression formed hull. It was still business as usual but then Pop bought 500 one piece Herters plastic wads. Nobody told me & I was too dumb to know pressure would go through the roof using the old data for paper hulls & fiber wads in a AA hull with a plastic wad. Dad's LC Smith survived but had to go to the gunsmith to get the forend lug soldered back in place. It still lockes up as tight as it ever did & I still shoot it but my Stevens Fox didn't fare as well. I got rid of it because it would come open every time I shot it. I don't know what the pressure was but I think I can be thankful I didn't wind up with a face full of shrapnel!

[fatelk]

I forgot to mention that my old Mossberg survived fine, amazingly. I still have it and it’s still going strong. It is impressive how much abuse modern firearms can take.

A friend started loading some time back and I helped him get set up. We developed a good load for his .300 Win mag using H4831. He called me maybe a year later to say he almost blew up his rifle, couldn’t figure out what went wrong. He had a round that flowed the brass into the bolt head where he had to use a hammer to open the bolt.

Long story short he hadn’t loaded any since getting set up, then months later just adjusted his powder measure to drop that charge. He checked a couple drops on the scale then just dropped powder into the whole loading block without checking any more.

Of course 4831 will settle in the hopper after a few drops, and most of his rounds were at least a couple grains too hot. I don’t know what kind of pressure those loads generated but it was pretty scary.

[dale2242]

I had a friend ruin a Remington 721 barreled in 257AI.
He loaded 4895 with 4831 data.
Luckily he was not hurt....dale

[Artful]

I had a friend ruin a Remington 721 barreled in 257AI.
He loaded 4895 with 4831 data.
Luckily he was not hurt....dale

Very Lucky, I knew a gentleman who did something similar who then went several fingers short the rest of his long life.

[kmrra]

Good call but Im really doubtful that the creedmore would fire in the 308 as it looks like that the shoulder would be pushed in too far allowing the primer or head of the case to even go up in the bolt head. I would have to try one im my 308 just to find out , and even if it did for I dought that any harm would be done other that the bullet would just fly off into knowhere. But that was a goodcall I will try it and let everyone know , Im not sceared LOL, might me stupid but not sceared LOL

[NoAngel]

The world is full of idiots.
They needed the butt chewing you gave and probably more.
If they’re the only one who could potentially get hurt I wouldn’t have a problem with other people’s stupidity but they inevitably get other people hurt and that’s unforgivable.

There’s no such thing as an accident. Everything like this happens because of human error and negligence. Some of which is malicious some not. Neither are an excuse.
There’s not a single gun related injury that’s not 100% preventable. No different that DUI’s or STD’s.

Play dumb games. Win dumb prizes. The worst part is innocent bystanders getting a free door prize because some other idiots mistake.

[Geezer in NH]

[QUOTE=GEOMETRIC;4236153]fatelk,
I The customs agent didn't charge me anything as he claimed my shells were worthless because they were reloads. QUOTE]

Really he is right reloads are commercially worth **** unless loaded by a licensed manufacturer. He did you a good one and yet you?????

[AllanD]

Several decades ago I watched a guy run a whole En Block clip of 8x57 through a National Match Garand,
The rifle seemed none the worse for the experience.

Somewhere I still have the funny looking Brass that Resulted, they were "fireformed into 30-06 cases with odd looking short necks.

[Hamish]

The one that worries me a bit is accidentally putting a 300 Blackout in a 5.56 rifle. Now that I have each and they take the same magazines I’m especially cautious.

The profile of the bullets I use in the .300 is such that they won’t actually chamber in the 5.56 but I still worry.

I used to have a pic I found on the net of a sectioned barrel that had 300 BLK fired in a .223/5.56 barrel. Bullet had been extruded out about three inches long ,,,,,,

Found it:

210223

[Down South]

I used to have a pic I found on the net of a sectioned barrel that had 300 BLK fired in a .223/5.56 barrel. Bullet had been extruded out about three inches long ,,,,,,

Found it:

210223

Thank God that was a very heavy duty barrel.

[GEOMETRIC]

I am not sure what you are getting at with your comment. The commercial value is irrelevant as well as how they got loaded. I took them to Canada to shoot, not to sell. As far as value is concerned, the shot in the hulls alone was worth over $3 a shell. What my reloads are worth to someone else is not my problem. As I recall, their import tax on hunting ammo., to be used for hunting in Canada is not based on retail value. You get so many shells free & over your quota is taxed. I don't know why he didn't charge me but my best guess is he didn't know what to do in the situation so he just let me in for free. Thank you Mr. Canadian border agent!
We met a group on the way out that didn't fare so well. The border agents were checking the ducks they killed to be sure they were in compliance with the law. These characters got the bright idea they cold stuff an extra duck in the body cavity of another so it would appear that two ducks were one & they could kill two limits.
Well, as you might have guessed, these characters could still be in a Canadian prison. It is always a good idea to obey the law, especially in another country.

[BK7saum]

Good call but Im really doubtful that the creedmore would fire in the 308 as it looks like that the shoulder would be pushed in too far allowing the primer or head of the case to even go up in the bolt head. I would have to try one im my 308 just to find out , and even if it did for I dought that any harm would be done other that the bullet would just fly off into knowhere. But that was a goodcall I will try it and let everyone know , Im not sceared LOL, might me stupid but not sceared LOL

As far as the 6.5 in 308 chamber not being able to fire, take a look at the shoulder diameter. The 6.5 is 0.008" larger at the shoulder, so there would be plenty of resistance to keep the case against the bolt face to fire the cartridge.

[Plate plinker]

Not to mention the extractor holding the cast against the bolt face. I say it will fire. Almost with 100% certainty.

[Down South]

Not to mention the extractor holding the cast against the bolt face. I say it will fire. Almost with 100% certainty.
LOL, I promise it will fire as I saw it happen first hand.

[mjwcaster]

The one that worries me a bit is accidentally putting a 300 Blackout in a 5.56 rifle....

The profile of the bullets I use in the .300 is such that they won’t actually chamber in the 5.56 but I still worry.

Just as long as there is sufficient neck tension.
Somewhere on the web are pictures of a sectioned .223 AR barrel with a severely resized/elongated 30 Cal projectile that made it several inches down the barrel.
Best guess is that the .30 projectile got shoved back into the case during chambering.

So it is worth worrying about because it can happen.

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[merlin101]

I used to have a pic I found on the net of a sectioned barrel that had 300 BLK fired in a .223/5.56 barrel. Bullet had been extruded out about three inches long ,,,,,,

Found it:

210223

At first I wondered where all the gas pressure went, then I saw the case head! I wouldn't have wanted to be behind that!
Thanks for the pic, I'm in the process of building a .300 BO and already have a couple .223. Your pic will be remembered VIVIDLY!

[2wheelDuke]

I had a similar mishap once with a friend. Despite my best efforts to keep things for the .400 Cor-Bon and the .45acp 1911's separate, somehow he still grabbed a mag full of .400's for my .45 gun.

Instead of a bang, he got a soft bloop, and the bullet fell to the ground about 10 yards downrange.

It fire formed back out to .45acp. I tossed that case just to be safe instead of necking it back down again.

[facetious]

I was at the range one time and a guy there couldn't get his gun to shoot and asked him what was wrong. He was trying to shoot .223's in a .308. Told him that wouldn't work. He said he wanted less recoil so was trying a smaller cartrage.

P.S. It worked it had no recoil !

[Geezer in NH]

IMHO range officers should have a clue and knowledge.

Showing why there was a problem would be way more educating to the shooters and would not have led to this post Bashing them to the net. Again IMHO

[Down South]

IMHO range officers should have a clue and knowledge.

Showing why there was a problem would be way more educating to the shooters and would not have led to this post Bashing them to the net. Again IMHO

Who bashed them to the net? Yes, they needed an educational butt chewing and I gave them that. Mistakes can lead to severe coincidences on a shooting bench.
Who are you to tell me what I should or should not do as a RO?

[Hamish]

At first I wondered where all the gas pressure went, then I saw the case head! I wouldn't have wanted to be behind that!
Thanks for the pic, I'm in the process of building a .300 BO and already have a couple .223. Your pic will be remembered VIVIDLY!

EVERY AR gets "300 BLK" or ".223/5.56" in about one inch tall letters on both sides of the upper with a white paint pen in my house,,,,,,

[Hannibal]

I'm SOOOOOOOO glad I have my own range.

[Geezer in NH]

Who bashed them to the net? Yes, they needed an educational butt chewing and I gave them that. Mistakes can lead to severe coincidences on a shooting bench.
Who are you to tell me what I should or should not do as a RO?Uh That would be YOU. Read your own original post.

I Stated my opinion that is my right here. To Bad you do not like it.

In the club I have been an officer in you would have been talked about your response.
Power trips are not needed to educate.

Have a nice New Year.

[starmac]

That might be the difference between Texas and NH, shoot they are lucky they didn't get knots around the head and shoulder area. lol

[rosewood]

This could be a matter of interpretation. There are polite butt chewings and rude ones. It could have been either one. Also when u do something dangerous, a firm chewing is in order so they see the gravity of what they did. If u are handling a gun, u shouldn't be a pansy.

[Texas by God]

EVERY AR gets "300 BLK" or ".223/5.56" in about one inch tall letters on both sides of the upper with a white paint pen in my house,,,,,,**** good idea.

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[Texas by God]

I'm SOOOOOOOO glad I have my own range.Meeeee toooo!

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[Texas by God]

I 've never been a RO but if I was the butt chewing would be in direct proportion to the shooter's attitude. The OP did the right thing. It amazes me how people can't be bothered to read that writing on the barrel that states the cartridge the gun is chambered for. Give me an inexperienced shooter willing to learn over a know it all anytime.
Unrelated but years ago I went pheasant hunting with a co-worker and his older retired father. No one wanted to hunt next to this man because he knew everything and you knew nothing. So I did as I can ignore annoying things. However the second time his muzzle crossed my person I grabbed the barrel and politely offered to place it where the Kansas sun didn't shine. Did I go overboard? Maybe- but the hunt was incident free after that and he and I get along great now. His son pulled me aside and thanked me!

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[fatelk]

I 've never been a RO but if I was the butt chewing would be in direct proportion to the shooter's attitude.

Proportionate to attitude and level of unsafe behavior, I agree! Some things can be ignored but others have to be addressed immediately and sternly. A friend was telling me about shooting with some friends a few years ago, and one lady kept having her hand bit by the slide of her 9mm because her grip was wrong.

She turned and asked why it kept hurting her. As she turned she swept everyone with the loaded, chambered, cocked pistol, finger on the trigger. He calmly but loudly and sternly told her to point the gun away and put it down. He then took over as a very stern RO for the day.

He didn't ask nicely but wasn't a rude jerk either. Knowing him, had he gotten any attitude in response he'd have probably gotten rude about it, as appropriate for such a major safety violation.

[Down South]

I've had a few stones thrown at me from my opening post to this thread. Still some who have posted in this thread don't seem to understand how a mistake can lead to disastrous results. Again, my butt chewing was not severe. The gentlemen seemed appreciative of their educational gnawing.

Well, time for more stones.
A few weeks ago, I was RO again at the same range, our bench rest range. Range rules are when the range is called cold, all rifles have to be unloaded and stood in the vertical gun racks behind the benches with actions open.
I had called the range cold and was walking the line inspecting before I allowed people to go downrange and put up or take down targets. One guy still had his rifle in the bench rest. I asked him to move it to the rack behind him. He argued with me that the bolt was open so he didn't see any harm.
I explained that our rules required it and until the rifle was properly stored, I would not let people down range. I could tell that he was not pleased with me but rules and safety apply.
Another thing, I don't allow people to tinker with their rifles when people are down range.

Let the rocks fly.

[Hamish]

Shouldn't be any arguing over that,,,,,,,

We're a tad more relaxed in that actions are open and you will not "tinker" until the range is declared hot again.

[fatelk]

I have no problem with that. If those are the rules at your range, they should be followed. We have the same rule at our range.

I hope you didn't see my earlier comments as stone throwing. An attitude-appropriate butt chewing is called for sometimes. I've been chewed out many times in my life, sometimes deserved, sometimes not. There have been times that a butt-chewing has certainly changed my perspective on things.

The ironic thing about the incident I referenced in my post on page one, where a guy went full "drill sergeant" on my friend for handling a handgun during a cold range, was that as I was leaving a little later the same guy was bore-sighting his rifle with people downrange setting targets!

I didn't say anything. I probably should have, but honestly the way he chewed out my friend told me he was not someone to be reasoned with, very much type-A and full of himself. Considering that the others at the range seemed to be OK with it, and the bolt was removed from his rifle as he was bore sighting, I left it alone and just left.

[TXGunNut]

Shouldn't be any arguing over that,,,,,,,

We're a tad more relaxed in that actions are open and you will not "tinker" until the range is declared hot again.

Agreed, last thing I want to hear while downrange on a cold range is someone "tinkering". Actions open & unloaded. Take a step back and take a break if not going down range. I'd prefer that folks refrain from loading detached mags during a cold range but that can be a hard sell. I get nervous with any metallic sound while downrange. I recently had another member's guest get a bit offended when I told him to put his rifle down while he was handling it during a cold range. I wasn't rude or abusive, just direct. Some folks are too easily offended, but that's a subject in itself. Safety first.

[Shingle]

Thats is the reason i dont have a 6mmx223 because i can see that disaster coming.

[Handloader109]

210866

Yep, or more of a permanent solution that stands out.

[Plate plinker]

^^^^^THE chambering of the 300BO in a 5.56 is a good reason for Bill Wilsons 7.62x40.

[richhodg66]

I've had a few stones thrown at me from my opening post to this thread. Still some who have posted in this thread don't seem to understand how a mistake can lead to disastrous results. Again, my butt chewing was not severe. The gentlemen seemed appreciative of their educational gnawing.

Well, time for more stones.
A few weeks ago, I was RO again at the same range, our bench rest range. Range rules are when the range is called cold, all rifles have to be unloaded and stood in the vertical gun racks behind the benches with actions open.
I had called the range cold and was walking the line inspecting before I allowed people to go downrange and put up or take down targets. One guy still had his rifle in the bench rest. I asked him to move it to the rack behind him. He argued with me that the bolt was open so he didn't see any harm.
I explained that our rules required it and until the rifle was properly stored, I would not let people down range. I could tell that he was not pleased with me but rules and safety apply.
Another thing, I don't allow people to tinker with their rifles when people are down range.

Let the rocks fly.

If those are you range rules, I'm sure the guy had to read and understand and sign something saying so before he used the range. That being the case, he had no argument about it.

The public range I shoot on sometimes requires actions to be open and a bright yellow plastic "flag" to be in the action showing it's open. Everybody has to stand behind a line away from benches while anybody is down range. I think the "hands off all firearms while anybody is down range" is pretty universal.

[MT Gianni]

I've had a few stones thrown at me from my opening post to this thread. Still some who have posted in this thread don't seem to understand how a mistake can lead to disastrous results. Again, my butt chewing was not severe. The gentlemen seemed appreciative of their educational gnawing.

Well, time for more stones.
A few weeks ago, I was RO again at the same range, our bench rest range. Range rules are when the range is called cold, all rifles have to be unloaded and stood in the vertical gun racks behind the benches with actions open.
I had called the range cold and was walking the line inspecting before I allowed people to go downrange and put up or take down targets. One guy still had his rifle in the bench rest. I asked him to move it to the rack behind him. He argued with me that the bolt was open so he didn't see any harm.
I explained that our rules required it and until the rifle was properly stored, I would not let people down range. I could tell that he was not pleased with me but rules and safety apply.
Another thing, I don't allow people to tinker with their rifles when people are down range.

Let the rocks fly.

The only reason I might possibly disagree would be your decision to leave. You were right and your rules should have been fair.

[fatelk]

Again, my butt chewing was not severe. The gentlemen seemed appreciative of their educational gnawing.

This is a sign of maturity, being able to man up and take a chewing out. they'll probably remember that for a long time; you might have saved someone from some serious troubles down the road.

I had a co-worker get on me pretty good a year or two ago about something. About halfway through his butt-chewing as I was getting pretty offended by his tone, I realized that he was right about what I should be doing different. A few minutes after he was done he realized that he had taken it a little too far, and started to apologize. I stopped him and said no, you were right. I thanked him for changing my perspective. I kind of needed it to be said the way he did even if it did offend me, but I did appreciate the fact that he apologized afterwards.

[trails4u]

I 've never been a RO but if I was the butt chewing would be in direct proportion to the shooter's attitude. The OP did the right thing. It amazes me how people can't be bothered to read that writing on the barrel that states the cartridge the gun is chambered for. Give me an inexperienced shooter willing to learn over a know it all anytime.
Unrelated but years ago I went pheasant hunting with a co-worker and his older retired father. No one wanted to hunt next to this man because he knew everything and you knew nothing. So I did as I can ignore annoying things. However the second time his muzzle crossed my person I grabbed the barrel and politely offered to place it where the Kansas sun didn't shine. Did I go overboard? Maybe- but the hunt was incident free after that and he and I get along great now. His son pulled me aside and thanked me!

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I made one attempt at teaching the MIL to shoot. She's kept a pistol under her pillow for years (divorced, so living alone) and obviously she knows we shoot a bit from time to time, so she asked me if we could shoot, so she could learn 'better' than what she was taught before. The first time she swept me and the wife with a hot pistol, she was rather sternly corrected. The second time, less than a full magazine later....when she swept me, the wife, my truck and my house where my children were inside, we were done. Afterwards, I very, very politely counseled her to get professional training, in a one-on-one environment if she could. The risk assessment was pretty cut and dry on that one.

[lightman]

I did not have a problem with your first post, having interpreted your butt chewing to be a stern discussion. Since the gentleman was receptive I'm not sure exactly why you left the range?

I also thought your second encounter was justified. Rules are rules and are for everyone. They are often more strict at bench rest ranges due to the fact that many of those rifles have very light triggers and no safeties. Not that a safety should be relied on, of course!

[RogerDat]

Back on the crossing cartridges and ammo in the estate. I only use military head stamp 30-06 brass that has NO caliber stated to reform to 8mm and do not currently own a 30-06. Cases are in labeled bins, inside the bins are labeled zip lock baggies. The loaded rounds go in labeled boxes. If one looking at a head stamp that reads LC 75 and decides that means 30-06 despite the labels on the containers I'm going to figure it isn't family because we killed and ate the really stupid family members before the grew old enough to be tough and stringy.

My will leaves specific firearms to individuals and the corresponding ammo, cases, bullets and molds. The presses stay here. As they are all family if my wife is still alive they can if they wish come here to use the loading bench or not reload or not use ammo I loaded as they wish. But since they shoot my reloads now I can't imagine why they wouldn't later. I guess if any of them decided to sell the gun and ammo the buyer might be skeptical of the loaded rounds. I'm guessing the "pretty" PC rounds would get the strangest looks.

I have had more than one deserved butt chewing. So I try to make it a point to consider dispassionately the merits of the speakers case. Then decide if they should be thanked, ignored or told why they are incorrect, or just agreed with for the sake of office politics. The later case seems like they tend to involve repeat offender blow hards so nodding and saying good point, I'll consider that etc. is understood by co-workers to be the equivalent of flipping them the bird only they be too clueless to understand.

My boss at one point said I take you to planning meetings because you will tell someone point blank they are wrong or mistaken in the approach they are advocating. Followed by why. If you are too blunt I'll pretty it up with some nice words. I guess if I figure that is appropriate about things that just cost money I can't say there is anything wrong with a RO that is at least willing to get very blunt when it is warranted about stuff that can kill or maim. I will say old machinists and factory rats can be darn hard on an idiot that leaves a key in a drill chuck.