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View Full Version : Just for fun- Cast Boolit carry loads



harley45
03-30-2005, 02:39 PM
Just for fun as I don't want to get into a discussion of the legal issues on handloads what would you guys carry in a self defense gun that you cast at home? Me I'd take one of my 1911s with a BD 230grain over 8.4grains of HS6.
Like I said this is just for fun I don't want to start a flame war. 8)

C1PNR
03-30-2005, 03:10 PM
I can't locate my load manual right now, so this is from my CRS memory bank. :?

I like the 452423 in the LW Colt Commander. Wont even hazard a guess what the load uses, but it's a middle of the road velocity that the Colt really likes.

The other choice would probably be a 429421 in another middle of the road loading out of my 3" Bulldog. Not quite the razor sharp accuracy of the Commander, but a little heaver boolit. And it's a "Point and Pull" situation, no safety to maneuver, or forget! :wink:

Hardcast
03-30-2005, 08:08 PM
Just for fun as I don't want to get into a discussion of the legal issues on handloads what would you guys carry in a self defense gun that you cast at home? Me I'd take one of my 1911s with a BD 230grain over 8.4grains of HS6.
Like I said this is just for fun I don't want to start a flame war. 8)

Out here in rural America, I would not hesitate a bit to carry a 1911 loaded with BD 230s. That is, as long as they function well and shoot to POA. Oh yea, there is one problem: I DON'T HAVE A BD 230 MOLD !!!!!!
However, I have access to Lyman 452423s and with just a little more testing I'm sure I'll be carrying them in my Wilson KZ-45. I still have hope that we have enough interest for a BD 230 group buy later this summer. BTW, I am loading the 452423s with AA#9.

imashooter2
03-30-2005, 08:50 PM
Hmmmm... I normally carry compact 9's with JHP's. I guess if I was to carry cast I'd want it big to start with. The Lyman 452630 over 5.0 of WST in my Kimber would do the job.

DOUBLEJK
03-30-2005, 08:56 PM
Ifin' I did it would be a #358156 in H.P. form cast outa 20 Lead to 1 Tin n stuck in a S&W 3" 60.....

waksupi
03-30-2005, 08:59 PM
I keep the BD 45's in both my carry pistols. Around 5 gr. Bullseye. Not the fastest load, but sure to leave a serious boo-boo.
I'd asked one of my friends, a local judge about this subject one time. He says he would be more inclined to figure malice with the various high tech defense rounds on the market, than the guy with reloads. He also says if it isn't some trash bag doing the shooting, the case probably wouldn't make a difference for Joe Citizen defending life, family, or property. They wouldn't do time, regardless. He's a reloader, and does a lot of shooting, so like me, most of the people he knows reloads, and considers it a natural thing.

harley45
03-30-2005, 09:06 PM
I agree with your friend the Judge about handloads I was just curious what everyone would carry if they carried their own and I've seen the legal discussions overshadow some pretty good threads before.
Eric

Scrounger
03-30-2005, 10:04 PM
I think a lot of people are fooling themselves on that issue. A smart lawyer has to be able to make either side of any issue work for him. If you use handloads, I'd say you set out to design a load that would kill or maim someone. If you used jacketed hollowpoints, I'd say you used bullets designed to open up and tear a lot of tissue and cause massive trauma. Solid bullets? I'd contend that you planned for your bullet to get the most penetration possible and cause two open wounds to hasten blood loss and death. I don't care what bullet or knive or whatever you use, I would make it sound really bloodthirsty and gruesome to the jury. That's what lawyers do. If you think one kind of bullet is more acceptable than another for shooting someone, start shopping for a lawyer right now. It was probably some lawyer who said that in the beginning, anyway. Someone asked him a question; since he was going to be paid for his legal opinion, he had to say something. Same thing with Remington changing their nice trigger to something terrible. Their (paid) legal department justified their salary by saying that. Any lawyer knows it wouldn't make a dang bit of difference in court whether the trigger pull was 10 ounces or 10 pounds. If you're a lawyer, you work with what you have. You make whats there work for you.

Urny
03-31-2005, 12:21 AM
In my Colt Commander, I carry NEI 231-45 (or is it the other way around?) over some Unique, Winchester LP and anyone's case. The boolits are tumbled in Lee Liquid Alox, then in mica, and sized .451 in a push through sizer.

harley45
03-31-2005, 12:39 AM
This is a fun thread so far. It's funny three months ago I'd never heard of a 452423 and now look how popular it seems to be.

NVcurmudgeon
03-31-2005, 01:04 AM
Currently I am carrying Federal Hi-Shok 185 JHP in my Colt Gold Cup. Soon as I can get the new Springfield Ultra Compact 9mm listed on my CCW it will be loaded with Speer 124 Gold Dot JHP. When I buy a box of cartridges I write the date on the box, and when it gets to be a year old I replace it and shoot up the old stuff in practice. I don't worry about some thug's lawyer raking me over the coals for carrying handloads, but Murphy's Law dictates that if lube migration ever gives you a misfire, it will be at the worst possible moment. curmudgeon

Four Fingers of Death
03-31-2005, 04:47 AM
If we were allowed to carry, and I was to use real boolits (cast) I think I'd like to use old Elmer Keith's fav load. 245Gn SWC over 22 Gn 2400. Because the ranges would be short and the likehood of firing a lot of shots remote, I think I'd cast them soft so that the suckers would give me the best of both worlds. Flat nose for max impact and to initiate lift off of the target, followed by max expansion to ensure minimum number of witnesses at the courthouse. The legal system of both our countries is clogged enough and the people working there busy enough without us good folk adding to their troubles.

I loved that line in 'Sixguns' by old Elmer when he said something about a shootout where the two cops used 44 Specials with their own cast reloads to take out a number of bad guys, something along the line about public safety being taken care of with minimal expense to the taxpayer.

Mick.

I think I might have to let my head go and buy a DA Smith or Ruger (I like the look of the blued Redhawk with ivory grips) The old faithful SA Rugers I pack are a mite slow past the first six rounds. Plenty of rapid bang and smoke up to then though. Probably have to pack both of them rather that a speedloader.

Willbird
03-31-2005, 10:10 AM
Honestly I do not give a hoot what the Judge or Mr. Ayoob or anybody else thinks or does,If a situation develops where I must kill another human then the best tools for the job should be used.

that said I would choose a boolit that will run 1000 rounds without a malfunction in either a revolver or semi-auto. I would choose a boolit heavy for it's dia, in 45 acp probably a 220-250 grain roundflat, in a 357 a 158 round/flat. I would function test these in heat treated WW metal, the carry loads would be 1/20 lead tin, the primers and the bullets would be sealed, I would seal the boolits before crimping, and I would use a roll crimp on revolver ammo that JUST snugged against the boolit in the crimp groove and I would apply it while the sealer was still tacky

In my mind a 1911 type pistol does not rely on bullet expansion in 45 acp for proper performance, the noce thing about most 230 grain HP is they have a nice large meplet.

Ditto on the 357 actually, in real world testing on bad guys even 110 jhp often does not expand.

Bill

sundog
03-31-2005, 11:04 AM
Bill, I don't care much to listen to stuff like Mr. Ayoob puts out either. Supposition. As far as I know there have not been any problems wherein the [defensive] shooting has been justified. Here's the real deal. Your life is threatened and you neutralize the threat. You're alive and maybe the perp isn't (better if he isn't so that he can't tell his [stilted] version of what happened, i.e., lie). If the perp really is a bad guy, he'll already been known, and you with a CCW are pretty much squeeky clean after having gone through the CCW issue process. I'm a whole lot less worried about the criminal side than the civil side. Even if I have to neutralize a threat within the confines of my house for which I would be completely justified and protected under our state's 'Make My Day Law', I would still have to be concerned about a civil suit even though there is some protection from that also contained in the law. Outside my house I use the green, amber, red system to determine my threat level. I like very much to stay green and avoid ANY situation in which I am not comfortable. I had to stand someone down, on my property, with a well loaded shotgun several years ago. It was not a pleasant experience, but the presence of shotgun, eventually pointed directly at him was enough to convince him he was in the wrong place. I remember him saying, "are you gonna shoot me?" My response was almost automatic, "not if I don't have to." He immediately vacated the premises and did not return. I've had a couple other encouters over the years. After thinking about them the common thread has been that deadly force has to be a last resort and needs to be explainable, in detail (after action report). My training in the army taught me that any encouter has to be overwhelming and decisive (even though in practice it doesn't always work out that way). That applies. If the intent is to neutralize a threat, then you must commit to that end.

btw, I carry a .45 with cast boolits. First (and this is the BIG one), committment (if your head ain't screwed on right you have no business carrying); second, dependability of the weapon, ammo, holster, etc; third, ability to use it; fourth, accuracy; and last a load that will convince a perp it's not worth it. I'm currently loaded with Lee 200 gr RF and SMP231. Sorry if I got a little long on this one.... And please don't quote me in court as this is only a lay person's opinion. sundog

p.s. Notice I called the firearm 'weapon'. I seldom use that term.

felix
03-31-2005, 01:10 PM
It happened to me too. A guy started to take the screen off of my bedroom window when I was living (just after college graduation) in the center of KC, MO. A bright street light was behind him, and I could see he was extremely well dressed for the occassion. A suit, but no tie, if you can visualize that for such a street criminal. After he put BOTH hands on the sill to pull himself up and over into the opened window, I slammed shut a 760 pump (30-06). He froze solid as an iceberg. I yelled something like "you'd better get outta' here", and nothing happened. So I simply shoved the barrel into his chest with a heavy duty swing, after taking a windup much like a baseball pitcher would do in the old days. That guy was pushed out 5 yards minimum, flat on his back. He still did not move. I think it took 5 whole seconds for the adrenal gland to kick in, and then he ran faster than Micky could possibly do the bases when he was 18. He was gone in a flash. Those apartments where I lived had no more breakins for at least the 2 years I remained there. ... felix

grumble
03-31-2005, 02:21 PM
...the common thread has been that deadly force has to be a last resort and needs to be explainable, in detail (after action report)...

Good post, Sundog! I do have a comment about the quoted part, though.

While a full explananation is definately needed, and should be articulated, immediately after an incident is the exact WRONG time to test it out. When the cops show up after you call them, only minimal facts should be related to them, with no comments. It is FAR too easy to say something intended to be helpful that will instead set off red flags in the investigator's mind.

The info the cops need is something like, "he tried to break in, I feared for my family's safety, and after verbal warnings, I shot him. " NO more details than that until you've had a chance to talk to a lawyer and get the story straight in your own mind. The excitement of the moment can cause a lot of blathering about what you were thinking instead of what you actually did, and that can get you in trouble. Also, your mind will try to "connect the dots" of the images you have of the incident, and might well lead to false conclusions that you may, at the moment, think to be facts.

Bottom line is, bounce the story off a lawyer before you tell it to the cops. All cops aren't like our own Deputy Al, and some eager-beaver may want another arrest and conviction added to his annual performance report. Our legal system cares a lot less about "justice" than it does processing meat through the system.

StarMetal
03-31-2005, 02:54 PM
Sundog

I'd like to ask you about the law in Oklahoma. When I lived there in the early 80's I was told, by the lawenforcement office, that say you had a 10,000 acre ranch, with the house dead center in it, and a crimminal "broke" into your home forceably, that you could legally shoot and kill him right up to your fenceline should he have fed. Did they change it now? I know some states that even if you shot someone inside your home, that he broke into, was armed and intended to do bodily harm, you still ..well...had alot of explaining to do. Maybe even in trouble. I liked that about Oklahoma. By the way when we lived there we got broken into, but we weren't home. Back then the big thing was house robberies, still looks like it is down that ways.

Joe

sundog
03-31-2005, 04:16 PM
Grumble, right on. "Officer, I feared for my life." The story you tell better be true, consistent, and indeed on the side of being threatened and applying deadly force because you feared for your life. Don't shot some bastard while he is running away..., even if he needs shooting.

Joe, the Oklahoma State Legislature with prompting from the Oklahoma Rifle Association and other groups has been VERY supportive of personal defense rights in recent years. Oklahoma Range Protection Act, Make My Day Law, and CCW, some/all with several amendments to make them useable for the citizenry. I don't think you will get an argument from any LEO or DA in the state if you take out a burglar in your house. Outside your house, even on your own property is a little different, you'd better be that you're getting ready to get hurt before you pull the trigger. That decision making process is going to be a little different for each person and situation - part of the making sure your head is screwed on straight.

Not very long ago (couple months maybe) a doctor stopped to help a woman in distress from her husband, outside town (Henryetta, OK), roadside. He took her to town and while on the way was rammed at least once by the husband. He drove to the police station. When he parked and got out to help the woman in he was confronted by the man and the doc told him to stop and stay away and was threatened verbally. The man kept coming so the doc pulled his CCW and shot him, twice. Had he had this confrontation while helping the woman roadside it might have been a little different - read further. In town, when personally confronted and directly threatened he had cause, not because he was in town, but because of the ramming incident in the car and the direct threat. btw, this doc had just returned from a tour in Iraq (suppose maybe he didn't want to put up with any bs?). In Oklahoma you can defend yourself, family, and employees. The law is pretty clear on that. You can't jump into the middle of a street brawl and try to break it up just 'cause yer carryin' though. sundog

StarMetal
03-31-2005, 05:48 PM
Sundog

Years ago when I lived in Claremore we had an incident. My family had been telling me they think there is a peeping Tom. Well I worked shifts and wasn't aware. My son said he usually see someone go by the window at about 10:30 at nite. Well I was off, and I got my 45 LC Ruger Blackhawk that I had some cut down 410 shotgun shells loaded with this real real fine shot, finer then #12. I had two left. Well I grabbed the lawn chair and dragged it down under my one tree about 25 yards from the house. Sure enough, here comes a figure from my left, dressed in all black, first looks in the dining room window, then goes over to the patio and is looking in there. Well I cranked the hammer back quietly on the Ruger and pulled the trigger, and dang dead primer. I hammered it back on that second one and pulled the trigger and BOOM. The guy jumped straight up and I swear that the bottome of his feet were 3 foot of the concrete, grabbed his ass and yelled, and started running. I ran him down and put the gun in back, it was empty, but he didn't know that. He immediately drops to his knees and starts pleading for his life. I recognized him, the neighbor right up the road, real respectable, church goer, had to great kids, a boy and a girl. I marched him into the house, told the wife to call the sheriff. She was crying, thought I had killed him. I said no, I had birdshot. The sheriff come out and arrested him. I was quite the hero of the neighborhood as I reckon alot of folks had been peeped on. The DA called me a few days later and asked I drop the charges because the fellow apparently had this same problem in another town. He said his wife and kids are decent, and it really would ruin their lives if I pressed charges and they had to jail him, losing his job and all. Well I let it go. There was no more peeping after that. My friends at the refinery laughed their asses off hearing about it. Oh, one thing. the sheriff told the fellow we caught that if I had been an Okie, he'd been dead cause an Okie would have had bullets in that gun instead of birdshot. Well, I never intended to kill a peeping Tom, and wanted no accidential shooting or killing. Funny too the sheriff asked him what he was doing at 10:30 at night and the fellow says jogging. Sheriff asks at night? He said it's hot during the day, which it is in Oklahoma in the summer. Then the sheriff says dressed in all black and carrying stones in your pockets? He didn't have a comment about the black clothing, but commented the stones were to throw at my German Shepherd, which I did have one. You know what, meanest dog I ever owned and he's lucky the dog wasn't out, he might have been killed then, and those little driveway gravel stones wouldn't have done a thing to deter my dog. All in all it was quite an experience. Life in Oklahoma was quite exhilarating to say the least.

Joe

Willbird
03-31-2005, 09:51 PM
Everybody that owns a gun needs to read "Unintended Consequances" by John Ross.

Say NOTHING to the police, Lawyer up immediately.

saying NOTHING cannot be twisted or held against you nearly as much as opening your mouth.

NO you do not have anything to hide, but by the same token they have no right to demand answers from you without a shyster present. Being "nice" to them will not change the outcome in a positive way.

Never EVER consent to any type of search of your person or your property. they can go ahead and search anyway but the burden of proof is much higher. Not every police officer is honest, and they do not have your best interest in mind nearly as much as you and your shyster do.

Talk to NOBODY, not one person about what happened, that is for your lawyer and you.

and inside your own house if the police don't come within a couple hours it's time to feed the hogs :-)

Bill

9.3X62AL
04-02-2005, 01:48 AM
I don't carry defensive firearms with handloads, but if I were to do so.....the S&W 686 x 4" with Lyman #358156's going a little over 1300 FPS would transmit the concept pretty well, I think.

Willbird--I respect your viewpoint highly, but lawyering up will result in arrest in many cases. I was never confronted with such a decision in the citizen defensive shootings I investigated, and would have been VERY reluctant to arrest a decent citizen in such straits--and would have bent over backwards to avoid same. Unfortunately, legal rights are a lot like right-of-way at a 4-way/stop sign-controlled intersection--insistence upon right of way can cause otherwise unintended accidents.

Lloyd Smale
04-02-2005, 05:52 AM
mine are loaded with a 200 swc at 800 fps and ill deal with the judge when that time comes

BruceB
04-02-2005, 09:41 AM
Without getting into the legal/courts end of things (I've tilted at that particular windmill often enough over the years), I have perfect faith in my handloads for defensive use.

I carry good factory JHP loads for self-defence purposes when doing the CCW thing, but for lo, these many years, I have depended on heavy cast handloads in .44 maggies for my bear-discouragers in country where encounters were highly probable, not just "possible".

My wife cleanly killed a bull moose with these 'bear loads', actually just my normal-service .44s, from a Super Blackhawk (429244 in 1/3-lead 2/3 linotype, 21.0 2400). Ergo, I have faith in their proven effectiveness. However, one day I was moving camp and was dropped-off by a helicopter on a ridge in the Barren Lands (north of timberline in the NWT) and left there alone while the chopper went back for another load of camp gear. I had my .44 S&W Mountain Revolver for company with the same ammo as above, but our heavy rifles were still back with the rest of the gear thirty-or-so miles away.

That's when a mama grizzly and what looked like a yearling cub came out of the willows downslope and started slowly mooching their way up toward me. The closer they got, the smaller that S&W looked in my sweaty fist. I carried a couple HKS speedloaders with me, and believe me they were close at hand! Fortunately, the bears changed course and gradually moved away, never getting closer than perhaps 100 yards. It was a tense few minutes, I can assure y'all. It would have felt much worse without that revolver, though.

There have been many times in my life when the presence of a good handgun has been MUCH appreciated, although in my closest encounter I picked up a Lee Enfield to deal with a bear problem instead of the .44 Ruger revolver hanging beside it. It all ended up in a rapid-fire muzzle-flash-range shoot at the door of the cabin...about two-foot distance. .44s are great, but I've always been glad I grabbed the .303 on that occasion.

9.3X62AL
04-03-2005, 12:16 PM
I don't think the cast boolit of proper design gives up very much in stopping ability to the jacketed soft or hollow point designs in the handgun. This matters not whether the target gets about on two or four legs. The key is hit placement and the vital organs affected by the path taken by the projectile as it transits the target.

I'm not a wholesale supporter of the Fackler perspective, but a lot of what they say makes sense in the real world. Summed up, penetration is the key--controlled expansion is fine, but depth of wound channel increases the ability of a given shot to end the affair ASAP. I haven't seen a study of what the Fackler school thinks of the cast boolit per se, but its ability to penetrate in mediums has to appeal on some level to believers of that mode of thinking.

Bruce brings up a good point when he cites the use of the rifle as opposed to the handgun to sort out the bear problem at "bad breath distance". Even a medium-powered rifle like the Lee-Enfield in 303 British is GREATLY more powerful than the magnum handgun calibers. Assuming decent bullet design, the ability of the 303, 308, or 30-06 to project lethality more decisively over greater distances than the handgun is a "given".

Still, having a handgun along is a whole lot better than throwing rocks. I have spoken of dealing with a pissed-off black bear at pretty close quarters in the local mountain berry patch in Summer 2002......this prompted purchase of the CZ-550 in 9.3 x 62. The Redhawk x 44 that I used to cover our retreat was comforting, but the preference for a 30-30 or a bit more rifle occurred to me immediately. OK--maybe an M1A or HK-91! No need to fire defensively presented itself, but I was soundly thrilled just the same.

45 2.1
04-03-2005, 01:12 PM
Good post Al. Penetration is fine, but for it to kill well, it has to transfer most of its energy to the animal. Penetration with a round nose and penetration with a wadcutter or SWC is not the same thing. sometimes it is necessary to have some expansion taking place with some bullet designs for it to dump the energy into the animal instead of on the other side of it. Presumeing it does penetrate and leave the animal especially in handguns that are marginal in energy for what is being hunted or shot in defense of life.

BruceB
04-03-2005, 06:48 PM
Funny how much alike our thoughts tend to run.

When we lived at the wilderness lake in the Territories, my "ready-use" (old Navy term) rifles were a pair of genuine M-14s. One at the front door, and one at the back door, wiith a loaded mag in each rifle and a couple of additional loaded mags for each one. There wasn't a whole lot of "problems" that these two could not reconcile in short order. I have photos of M-14s leaning on the carcasses of assorted defunct fauna...in the yard!

One of these M-14s served as camp rifle for two seasons in a trophy caribou camp. Twenty rounds of Nosler 180s on-tap for short range, poor-light grizzly encounters were VERY comforting indeed.

Since the overall utility was the same, when an M-14 was absent on "detached service", an FN-FAL or something similar stepped in. I even had a 1918A2 BAR as "doorman" for a while, when I was a wee bit short on rifles.

I was sitting at home with our big ol' sled-dog one day when the back door opened unexpectedly and some stranger walked in. (Door wasn't visible from where I sat.) The dog LUNGED for the door and I barely managed to grab her collar. With the other hand I grabbed an M-14. The stranger was confronted with a BIG snarling mutt and a bearded scruffy rather-displeased dude with a NASTY rifle....seldom have folks vacated premises with such speed and agility. Turned out later that he was priest, of all things...'nother story.

grumble
04-03-2005, 07:10 PM
The dog LUNGED for the door and I barely managed to grab her collar. With the other hand I grabbed an M-14. The stranger was confronted with a BIG snarling mutt and a bearded scruffy rather-displeased dude with a NASTY rifle....seldom have folks vacated premises with such speed and agility. Turned out later that he was priest, of all things...'nother story.

Bruce, you can't do that to us. A PRIEST?? You HAVE to tell the rest of the story!

I'm reminded of a really good movie (Sam Peckenpaw, I believe) about a guy named Hogan (or something like that) that finds a waterhole in the desert, and ends up befriending a wiley preacher who turns out to be more of a letch than a preacher.

Umm, not to put too fine a point on things, but were you in need of confession? <GGG> I mean, I know how things are in the wilderness...

Urny
04-03-2005, 08:13 PM
Would that movie have been "The Ballad of Cable Hogue"? Or something like that.

grumble
04-04-2005, 12:08 PM
Would that movie have been "The Ballad of Cable Hogue"? Or something like that.

Yeah! That's the one! Good movie.

9.3X62AL
04-04-2005, 01:24 PM
A priest coming through the door, eh? That technique sounds like just the answer for them Jehovah's Witnesses that used to wake me up on Saturday mornings.

Bruce--gotta have THAT story, sir.

45-2.1.......like I said, I'm not a Facklerite--nor am I a Super Vel adherent, either. My idea of "expansion" has to do with "pre-expanded" boolits--those that start life at 40 caliber or larger. They may or may not expand, but they damn sure won't SHRINK. I think Hatcher and Thompson/LaGarde got closest to "The Answer", the problem is that users keep changing the question. Elmer Keith was pretty real, too.

As it stands currently, I am required to use a certain cartridge in my sidearms that "go public", and the caliber choice is sorta limited. When I move back to the United States to a place that allows CCW for normal people--as opposed to just cops and political cronies like California does--I will likely continue to carry factory loads in my street guns.

Shuz
04-04-2005, 03:16 PM
My CCW load is 16g of 2400 behind Lyman's 429640 Devastator mit out de gas check. Real accurate and real devastating on Phone books. Launch vehicle is Smith 329PD.

BruceB
04-04-2005, 05:38 PM
Okay, okay,.....the priest, alraedy!

I've known some po-lice of various descriptions over the years, and they have a term for someone who just doesn't look........"right". Nothing they can put their mental fingers on, nothing obviously out of whack, nothing really wrong, but SOMETHING rouses their interest about this person on sight.

The term is "hinky".

So, one late-spring day I was driving around 'downtown' Yellowknife, and while making a turn at the central intersection I noticed a skinny, somewhat hot-eyed gent waiting to cross the intersection. He was wearing plain black clothing, and a VERY ornate crucifix which was at least a foot from top of cross to bottom of cross, hanging on a wide elaborate chain. Nothing really untoward, you understand, apart from the huge cross, but....'something' made my instincts light up to pay some attention as I drove by. As I said, "hinky"....good word.

Out at the lake, 'bout 18 miles via gravel road and 1.5 miles of rough bush trail (4x4-only, some parts of the year) from where I saw this gent, our nearest neighbors lived a mile or so further down that bush trail. They are a large and friendly family, and quite active in Catholic Church affairs and observances. Apparently, he-of-the-huge-crucifix was visiting from out of town and was attempting to drop-in on our rather-religious neighbors.

He came through our (closed) gate, which was PLAINLY, even LAVISHLY posted against entry, ignoring the convenient telephone placed there for visitors to call the house before entry, also clearly marked, also ignoring the Beware of Dogs sign, and then also ignoring the normal civilized custom of knocking on the door or (in that country) the holler of "Hello the camp!"

So...here sits BruceB at home a day or two after seeing this fellow, in bucolic comfort with ol' mutt "Happy" and M-14, enjoying the peace and tranquility which were the main reasons for our living there, when in marches Monsignor HINKY, in the all-too-evident flesh, and I was a bit dumbfounded to find this jerk, who lit up all my warning lights on sight downtown, RIGHT IN MY HOME. I recognized him instantly, not many folks toting around appliances such as that crucifix, and I reckon my reaction was plainly visible. He was GONE on the very instant, not a word spoken, nada, zip. Never pointed the rifle at him, of course.

My neighbors asked later what I had "done" to the poor ass, but I just told them we'd had a non-verbal conversation and agreed that he should be elsewhere at that time.

I would have hated to be the poor Protestant standing before the Spanish Inquisition, had this laddie been sitting on the panel that day! He had a distinct aura of the fire-breathing evangelical.

To this day, I wonder what stories he tells about ME, and his excursion into the bush of the NWT.........in some circles, I may be the Mad Trapper of Prelude Lake!

NVcurmudgeon
04-04-2005, 07:20 PM
BruceB, You started it, now I have to tell my funny confrontation story. In one of my former lives as an Exxon dealer, I was doing the previous day's bookkeeping. I had maybe $2000 on my desk and was checking periodically through a one-way glass to see if I was needed out front. It got busy, so I went out to help. There were two young men, appearing to be from one of those families whose tree ran straight up, who had walked in. They asked if they could use the restroom. I walked around the corner to unlock the door and noticed that one of them was carrying a digging fork and the other had a spray can of paint. I asked what the spray can was for and received in reply,"none of your fornicating business." I told them that I had forgotten that the restroom was flooded, we were waiting for the plumber, and they should go to the Chevron station across the street. Immediately the digging fork carrier took a swing at my head. He missed, but not by much, and raised the fork straight up for another try. My S&W M39 leaped through a uniform jacket and a rubber rain hood into my hand. I didn't have to point the 9mm at them. The cretin and his friend with the spray can did a perfect "about face" and walked fifty yards out of the station still carrying the digging fork with the tines pointed straight up. Neither looked back, nor did they say a word. I don't imagine they needed a restroom after that.

"Hinky is a good description for people whose appearance raises your hackles. Thirty years ago Nevada LEOs whom I knew used the acronym, "JDLR" for such people (just don't look right,) maybe they still do. curmudgeon

Char-Gar
04-04-2005, 08:33 PM
I have long tired of this issue so I won't go into great detail as I have done in the past and get into defending the truth of what I say. I won't give you my legal credentials or anything else. I will just give you a straightforward answer to your question.

There are no legal issue about the use of handloads for self defense. A righteous shooting is a righteous shooting and bad shooting is a bad shooting. Masssad Ayoubs expounding on the subject are absolute legal crap.

There might be performance issues with the use of handloads vs. factory stuff. Factory stuff might be more reliable, but then it might not. Factory stuff might expend it energy better in the target, and then it might not. Handloads might overpenatrate and cause colleteral damage, but factory ammo might do the same.

AnthonyB
04-04-2005, 09:52 PM
Fellas, I have a few factory loads around the place and they go with me in the Kahr or Kimber. However, my revolters and pistols spend far more time with cast boolits housed in the internals than any jacketed load. Here are my favorites:
358429HP or 358156HP over a large quantity of Unique in 38 Special brass for the S&W snubbie. Yes, the load may loosen the revolter over time, but I'll be dead before I fire more than five so don't worry about it.
Same boolits in the M19 S&W Wesson loaded over a moderate amount of H110 - the revolter will last forever; anything shot with it will have a bad day.
RCBS 44-250KHP modified by a buddy's machinist friend, loaded over a moderate amount of H110. I will fear no evil, and if the HP doesn't deter an attacker I'll hit them/it with the Redhawk - that should put them/it on the ground.
The BD45ACP, RCBS 230CM, or Lyman 45-180 Devastator HP over a healthy amount of Unique in 45 ACP. The HP goes out in the summer; the BD or RCBS does winter duty. I have no doubts about any of the three doing their job if I do mine.
230 gr. Remington Gold Dot 45 ACPs are in the nightstand Glock, but it rarely leaves the house for other than range sessions.
A jacketed 115-124 grain HP over a large amount of Unique and carried in the Kahr P9 goes everywhere I can legally carry, even if I am toting something larger. This is what I carry when I can't carry a gun.
These are my choices only; I can't recommend them to anyone else.
Tony

Clark
04-04-2005, 10:17 PM
I carry 155 gr Cast SWC, 12 gr Power Pistol, 45acp Starline +P brass in my P10.

I carry 158 gr LSWC and 16 gr Power Pistol in my Tokarev converted to 9x23, with Win brass.

9.3X62AL
04-04-2005, 11:27 PM
Chargar--

Your observations are consistent with my experience on this issue in real time--a total non-issue. The subject has NEVER come up--not in 27 years and several hundred shooting investigations with a wide range of personalities involved--both as participants and critics (investigators/prosecutors).

In other words--use what you're comfortable with, based on your knowledge and experience.

Curly James
04-05-2005, 12:33 AM
I do like the new site. I don't post much but thought I would chime in here on this one. I have to agree with Deputy Al and others. In my 20 plus years as an LEO I have NEVER found the type of ammo or firearm used in a justifiable shooting to be an issue. It was either good or bad, period, and a jury gets to decide which, if it even goes that far. Having said that, I am forced to carry duty ammo in the Glock .40 but my house gun (other than the 12 gauge) is a S & W 686 with either a good 125 SJHP over a fair amount of 2400 or the Lyman 358429, cast soft, over 2400. The little Taurus snubby .38 is loaded with the 358429 and Unique. At the ranges most self defense shootings occur either will work fine. I really prefer
the 12 gauge with #4 buck for the home defense situation though. Someone else also made mention that you can't really know what any bullet will do in such a situation. I have found this to be very true and you would not believe the things I have seen bullets do when shot at another human being.

Willbird
04-05-2005, 06:50 AM
With all due respect Deputy Al if you were to ask me for permission to search my car during a traffic stop, I would say "With all due respect Sir, NO"

If I were to have to shoot somebody in self defense, when you arrived I would give you my name, DL, CCW license, and that would be the end of our interaction at that point until my lawyer arrived. You could arrest me, detain me, strip search me, whatever.

I am not bound to appease LEO in any way to be treated fairly and with respect and there is no special set of laws for people that suck up. Saying NOTHING until my lawyer arrives leaves nothing to be mis-understood or mis-written.

The facts will speak for themselves, and the truth will set me free or hang me.....LEO may do as they see fit if I choose this course of action and if need be we will fight it out in city council or the local news after I am exonerated. MORE people need to do so not less, if Richard Jewell had done that imagine the money it would have saved the govt in the end ??

Bill

9.3X62AL
04-05-2005, 09:29 AM
Bill--

I didn't get offended when folks asserted their rights. I just did what needed doing--if permission for a search was not forthcoming, a warrant could be generated if needed.

Having a lawyer at your side during any questioning in most cases effectively stops all communication between you the victim in this case and the investigating authorities. That happens a lot in dealing with crooks, and we're set up to deal with such things--no sweat, in other words. Most often, the physical evidence speaks pretty succinctly. Just keep in mind that in the absence of eyewitnesses, physical evidence, or victim statement--we could be left with only the statement(s) of the surviving assailant and/or his/her associates to establish what occurred. That may not be an admirable position.

You clearly declare your distrust of the judgement and skill of the investigating agencies and/or their personnel. That is your right, and I will not dispute it. In my experience, police incompetence and poor judgement occurs far more often in newsprint and electronic media than in real life.

However--keep in mind that attorneys have an agenda, too--and the insistence of your attorney that you make no statement could have as much to do with deepening his revenue stream as with safeguarding your rights. For my part, trusting any attorney over most police officers would be a very unique circumstance.

Here's hoping that we never have to go there. Ever. Having been there, it's a pretty scary place--before, during, and after the incident.

harley45
04-05-2005, 10:59 AM
I gotta agree with Al also. Talk don't talk it doesn't matter to me that much Our detectives will figure it all out in the end and if you want to pay a lawyer more your choice.
Eric

Willbird
04-05-2005, 12:46 PM
Not a distrust as such Al, just making sure that IF the gravest extreme were to occur that I do not say something under that stress that could be mis-understood or misconstrued.

The sherrif I helped elect in my county, he and I would talk,some Mr. Smith Clone from some alphabet agency is another matter entirely.

the consent to a vehicle search on a traffic stop is non negotiable , that is a matter of I have nothing to hide, and nothing to fear. BUT I understand they will search anyway, if they find something it aint MINE and at that point I would think you would agree that all the aces I can have in the hole will help me greatly.

I have read Unintended Consequances probably 6 times maybe more, there are lessons to be learned in that book. Being ever vigalant and availing one of the eroded version of our rights is one of them.

One nice thing about moving back out the boonies (the city moved to me where I lived before) is that LEO are far more rational there, they do not have as much BS to deal with for one thing, and the flakey ones get weeded out quicker.

I have seen just once a small slice of the carnage that Police and EMS get in up to their elbows (DUI poor me , poor me guy driving left of center killed a family) and I doubt I am equal to what it takes to do that out of the blue on a moments notice.

Given that I give them their due respect....................but I also have myself my freedom, and my family to look out for so I must do what is right not what is easiest.

Bill

wills
04-05-2005, 01:13 PM
“I have nothing to hide, and nothing to fear.”

You may have nothing to hide, but that can be supplied for you.

http://www.nbc5i.com/news/4336199/detail.html

C1PNR
04-05-2005, 05:13 PM
I'm staying out of this one except to say, it's not the LEO I fear. It's the political D.A. or equivalent, and the Trial Lawyers.

9.3X62AL
04-05-2005, 07:00 PM
Willbird--

I hear ya, sir. There are allowances made, and techniques employed when speaking with folks under situations like we're discussing to minimize exposure. That's as much as I'll say publicly. :-) I damn sure don't want a good citizen getting any more heat than the absolute minimum necessary. He/she has already been in a crucible, after all.

Wills--

That SOB needs to be strung up--period.

Fortunately, I haven't had a "crusading D.A." get froggy and try to make hay politically over one of my victims in a case like this. Not to say it couldn't happen--it just is outside my experience so far. And since my retirement is a lock and I'm waiting around for that date (6-17), it won't BE happening.

johniv
04-05-2005, 08:02 PM
Good thread!! Cannot add to the discussion of "how to behave" but on the original topic, 158 gr Fed Nyclad 357 and Fed 230 gr hs in 45 acp are most commonly found on my person, however if using reloads wit cast it would be Lyman #452423 and 6.0 gr unigue in the 45 and since my favorite 156 gr H&G #51 and 14.6 gr 2400 in the 357 would be a mite looong on penetration I would opt for the #358156 hp and about 14 gr of 2400.

Willbird
04-06-2005, 09:06 AM
And I had a want to make it clear as others have done too that it is not so much the contact I fear but the indelible record of such that I fear being mis-used by others for political reasons.

Any ctg. that I would use in self defense would be one that I had 1000's of at home just like it.

Bill

wills
04-06-2005, 12:59 PM
[QUOTE=Willbird]And I had a want to make it clear as others have done too that it is not so much the contact I fear but the indelible record of such that I fear being mis-used by others for political reasons.

As they say, you might beat the rap, but you wont beat the ride.

350mag
04-06-2005, 04:07 PM
I don't have any factory loads for any of my handguns, so it would have to be cast reloads for me. That means Lee 255gr swc in the 45 ACP or Lee 300gr RNFP in the 45 Colt for the most part, or a commercial cast 170gr SWC or the 200gr Bator light custom mold in the 38spl or 357.
I really don't worry too much about what some prosecuting attorny would say about using handloads. These loads are nothing special and if I was really looking to do somebody in with handloads, I would be using something other than these.
Ken

robertbank
11-23-2005, 01:03 PM
Interesting thread to be sure. Up here on a traffic stop the police have no right to search your car under any circumstance UNLESS they have probable cause and that probable cause goes beyond telling a judge later "he thought" or "I suspected". . Getting a search warrant to do so is not an option as I doubt it would be forthcoming. Search warrants are not handed out willy nilly up here.

My son at 16 was stopped for no apparent reason other than he looked about 14 at the time. He had a valid drivers license and was not speeding. RCMP asked if he could search the vehicle, Ryan politely said no and the officer, while peaved off, did not go further, handed him his license back and left. I gave my son credit for having the courage to stand up for his rights and while the young officer gets a F for attitude, gets an A+ for doing the right thing.

On the shooting situation the best advice I ever got was from a City Police Sargent in Edmonton. Back in the early 70's we had a rash of hostage taking incidents involving Bank Managers and their families. I was told clearly to shoot to kill, and be sucessful. Place the largest knife my wife had in her kitchen in the BG's hand and call it a day. One story to listen to period.

I live in bear country. Blacks and Grizzlies. I carry a shotgun when I can, a .45acp loaded with armco.08 rounds (.308 cases cut down and reamed out loaded with 10 1/2 gr Longshot powder under 200 gr hardcast LSWC. 24 lb spring in the .45acp.) Turns the 1911 into something way bigger. Great bear load. Please note the inside of the cases have to be reamed out down about 7/16 to 1/2 " to allow for more powder room. Gunnar a 'smith in Pr. George does the cases for us @ $1.00 a piece. DO NOT USE REGULAR .45ACP CASES WITH THIS LOAD or you will have gun parts flying in a lot of directions which is not a good thing!

Iron River Red
11-24-2005, 12:16 PM
Even if you shot em with a ping pong ball a lawyer is going to chase down the ambulance and make it look bad for you. So I recommend and do carry, a 155gr swc loaded with 5grains of Titewad at about 1000fps and don't give a hoot about the liability side of it. If you shoot some crook you WILL get sued. Its all about the money. I'm simply carrying my target pistol and may just happen to need it at the time...

Blackwater
11-26-2005, 10:42 PM
I usually carry whatever I've GOT, so sometimes that may be a reload. There'll usually be plenty left over for any forensic tests necessary, and they'll pretty clearly be the same as the others left in the magazine or the spare magazines, too, giving pretty good evidence that they match the
one(s) used. If the bullet goes through, I think they can usually recover it anyway, can't they?

I figure if I ever have to shoot someone, and I've only had to come right up to that point once, the loads in my gun will be the LEAST of my concerns. I just go about my business as casually as I can, and if and when a deadly encounter comes up, it'll be because I DIDN'T know it was coming, or I'd be somewhere else, and if I couldn't be somewhere else, then I'd be totin' a rifle or shotgun, NOT a pistol. That I WAS carrying a pistol is, IMO, prima face evidence that I was NOT prepared for such an encounter, and was NOT in any way counting on it.

The big concern I have these days is the quality of the jurors. With so many "good" folks wriggling out of jury duty, only the least qualified tend to sit on juries, and trial lawyers tend to dote on that, being the lyin', manipulatin', twistin' SOB's they are. I at least have been in court and testified many times, so I won't be cowed or wowed by anything, and I'll just be as "genuine" (for lack of a better word) as I can, and be honest, and trust that that'll persuade those similarly disposed on the jury. The most striking thing that I've found about juries, and I've seen a fair amount of them, is that they react more to appearances than they do of facts. Strange, I know, and kinda' humbling when you think about it, but true. They often hear words they don't understand, and often have a hard time understanding technical stuff. If I say, "I just used what I had on hand. After all, I wasn't PLANNING on this or I'd have been somewhere else," I think they'll recognize the Truth in that.

There are NO certainties when you go into a courtroom, and my grandfather (after some dissention on a land matter) used to say often, "If you want justice, go to a cathouse; if you want to get screwed, go to court." Some 130 years ago, Mark Twain said, "If the law says that, the law's an ass." I reckon problems in the courts ain't exactly a NEW thing, after all?

One request! A SINCERE one, too! If you get a summons, GO DO YOUR JURY DUTY! If you don't, and have to face a jury of dimwits, you've got nobody to blame but yourself. The biggest helping hand we ever get is attached to our own right arms, and this is never more true than when it comes to serving on jury duty. Suck it up and do it. You'll be glad afterwards. If you don't, you MAY be WORSE than sad!

Bret4207
11-27-2005, 09:46 AM
The modern jury is far from perfect. I have talked to many jurors who out and out said they didn't understand what they were assigned to do. I don't know whether I should blame the judge for that or the juror who was too intimidated to ask for further instruction. I've also seen many, many jurors who had an agenda of their own. I had a guy try to lop my head off with a sword. (Yeah, I know, I could of shot him. It was complicated and I made the best choice I could) We went to trial and he went to prison. One of the jurors was some shirt tail relative of a Trooper I know. The guy stated his belief that I could have disarmed the bad guy easily because he'd seen it done of TV millions of times. Apparantly the bad guy was still po'd because I sprayed him and said so at trial. (In case anyone doesn't know this- people giving testimony are NOT allowed in the court room, ala- Perry Mason/Matlock. You don't get to see or hear what happens so your testimony won't be altered.) The juror got srayed once too and he was out to recolcile his issue. I've heard other jurors who swore they could be impartial later state they couldn't convict a guy of Felony DWI becasue he drank at the drunks fathers bar. Thats the kind of thing that makes you wonder if professional jurors aren't such a bad idea. It wouldn't work of course. The way to do it is to not allow the "solid citizen" types to worm their way out. I've been up for jury duty and the judge never lets me past the inital jury selection stage. May seem strange, but I think a cop could be as fair as 99.9% of our other jurors, maybe even a better juror than some becasue he'd understand what was going on. I hate, hate, HATE, crooked cops and shoddy police work. If you can't do it right, then work the case a little longer. The only thing worse is prosecutors who either take a great case and destroy it through incompetance, or take a crap case and beat it to death when there's no hope of conviction. You never know which way they'll go. That's why the drunk down the street is still driving and the guy who knocked a chair into his ex-wifes knee as he was leaving the house for the last time is sitting in the county lock up. The thing that really gets you is that it's the best system available.

As far as the arguement regarding factory vs handload, hp vs swc- it's all a moot point in a criminal trial. It'll never come up unless you turn out to be the 1 in a bazillion who does the 900 yard sniper shot at the neighbor who lets his dog crap in your yard. In some weird case like that it might come up that you used handloads. The old hollow point ploy will be negated when your defense points out the police use hollow points. The handload thing comes up in civil court, if you ever get that far. Even then, I have never, ever heard of it being brought up. I wouldn't worry about it. I can tell you that when it comes down to it, you'll find that you won't shoot until the last possible moment when you know that you HAVE to shoot or you're gonna die. Thats pretty easy to articulate. The problem I see is there are too many people buying into the Massad Ayoob/Chuck Taylor type magazine mentality that you have to go around in condition ****** (name a color) or your gonna die. If you don't have the latest whiz bang holster and laser sight you'll die. It's all crap. 999 cases out of 1000 the mere knowledge that you are armed and are not going to be a victim will stop whatever the bad guys intentions are. Thats why gun shops don't get robbed much. Robbing a gun shop means you stand a real good chance of getting shot. Wait till after hours and burglarize it instead. Common sense has to be applied. If you are the guy who insists on getting up in somebodies face at every chance you have then you may well need to be concerned becasue you'll end up screwing with the wrong guy some day. Thats not the issue here.

As far as lawyering up- do as you wish. But as has been pointed out it just makes you look like you're hiding something. I'd state the simple facts. Once your are advised of your rights the interview moves to an interrogation. Make your decision then.

Char-Gar
11-27-2005, 03:27 PM
I have no problem using cast bullets for carry and defense. As I speak I have a sixgun (45 Colt) loaded with 452423/9/Unique by my side.

I won't go into all the ins and outs, but the use of handloads and liability myth/ old wives tale started by Ayoub and picked up and repeated by many who should know better has been throughly debunked.

In the issues that are involved in a shooting, the type of ammo is so far down the list as to be insignificant.

26Charlie
11-27-2005, 09:22 PM
I just read this whole post for the first time, and I must say I am impressed with the common sense and eloquence of our group. I have been reading some of your posts for up to seven years now, and already know this, of course, but it is good to see it reaffirmed.
As to the original question, nobody wants to have holes shot in them, so any gun will probably do to warn off those that can be warned off - and a plain lead bullet will knock down anyone who can't be deterred. Naturally it is better if the bullet is flat-pointed in calibers .38 and under, or weights under 180 gr., and moves at 850 f/s or more.
My own confrontation case was with a fellow late at night in a parking lot in Boston. I walked up as he was attempting to break into my car - claimed he thought it was his Cadillac. Told him I didn't want to argue the merits or circumstances, but that it was my Pontiac and maybe he should just go ahead on. He did. I had my .44 Special Charter Arms stainless steel Bulldog in my pocket, with the 215 gr. 429215GC and 5.5 gr. 5066 as the load. Didn't even have to get it out, but the confidence of having it available must have come through.

PatMarlin
11-28-2005, 12:06 AM
I too had to draw down on a guy this past July. I gave him every opportunity to be civil all the while he was unaware my right hand was on my SIG, until he made a move towards my wife.

Deputy Al was kind enough to help with some info from his perspective at the time. He was the only person I could think of for advise during this ordeal, and I am very thankful, and appreciated his help very much.

There are some truly fine members here at cast Boolits.

I found myself in a pickle, and since this seems to be a long winded thread, here are some highlights from a letter I wrote to our County DA- a fine example of a mess you can find yourself in as I have...


September 7, 2005

District Attorneys office

Re: Incident on July 15, 2005 -Pat **** and report filed by Sheriff Officer Mike ***.

Dear District Attorney,
I am writing this letter to clear my name, and provide an accurate report of an incident involving our call to 911 on July 15th, to report a man approaching my wife and I, in a hostile and threatening manner, at our home.

I realize the sheriff's department is overwhelmed and understaffed, and this I believe is most likely part of the problem that resulted in an inaccurate, misunderstanding of this situation. I am not placing blame here, I just want to clear my name.

To sum up the situation in a short version-

We called 911 because a man was in the process of threatened us at that very moment, and made a move in a threatening hostile manner towards my wife at the edge of, and on our property. Fearing that our lives could be in danger- the only thing that stopped him, and made him retreat was my handgun, that I had to produce and order him to stop and leave.

During that call I requested a sheriff to come out. No Sheriff ever came that evening. Also during that call speaking to Sheriff ****, I requested a report be taken, and he said he would call back and take a report. I waited very late, and called into the sheriff's office, and they said officer **** was out on another call. I waited until past midnight, and he never called back.

I now have learned this man went to ****** the very next day, and filed a bogus report with Officer ***, that was false, and completely flipped the incident against us. I also learned Sheriff **** took this mans report, listing this man as the "victim" and myself as the "suspect".

We were the victims here, and not once did any of the sheriff officers that interviewed this man from out of state... check his ID, or run his license plate, or check with the county recorder to verify if he owned any property in our County.
I tried reaching officer **** the next day, and was not able to get him.

On 7-17... I called sheriffs office at 12:52 (noon), and talked with a young dispatch operator, and she said Mike *** was off till Wednesday, and that he had started a report.

I spoke with officer **** on Wednesday I believe, and gave him a statement.
As days and days past we tried to get a copy of the sheriffs report, so we could file a restraining order to protect my wife from this person at her work- , but it was not complete. Finally, the sheriffs office said the report had been sent to the DA'S office. I called and talked with Patty, and that's when I learned I was listed as a "Suspect".

Currently, We- or none of our neighbors have seen this man since the incidents.

This is a horrible mess caused by a person from outside of our state, that no one has ever seen... and by taking action to protect myself and my wife- I am now listed as a suspect with the sheriff's department and the District Attorneys office in my own county.

We are property owners that have made ***** County our home, and I have no criminal record whatsoever, not even a traffic ticket. I wish to clear this up completely, with your office and the sheriff's office.

We were the ones that called 911. We were the ones that were harassed, verbally assaulted, and threatened by this intruder.
Now I find out this Sheriff report is on record and lists myself as the suspect, and this man as the victim.

I find it remarkable that both officer Mike ****, and the 2 other Sheriffs that interviewed this man in the field never once checked his ID. Never checked his vehicle license plate, never verified if he was indeed who he claimed he was, and that he had ownership of any property in **** County.

Days after the incidents, I asked both officer Mike ****, and the other officer, if they had checked this man's vehicle license plate, background, or drivers license I.D. and both stated they had not. My wife had written down the license plate while passing the man's vehicle in our driveway, and I gave it to both officers and requested they check to see if he had a criminal background, in order to alert us to a potentially MORE dangerous situation. Both officers said they would check it out, and no one got back to us.

I also find it unsettling that a Sheriff would not come out to our home on July 15, 2005 at our request and take our report, after we called 911, but then took the word and report of a non resident from out of state, and filed a that report based on his statement listing me as the suspect.

I wish to clear my good name and set the record straight, and protect my wife from this person.

We have been waiting all these days for officer **** to complete this report, so we could file a restraining order for my wife against this man to help protect her here at home, and at her place of work.

Thanks so much for your help concerning this matter...

Bret4207
11-28-2005, 05:23 PM
Pat- It's incidents like yours that give the rest of the cops out here a bad names. Sorry you had to go through that.

StarMetal
11-28-2005, 05:47 PM
Sounds like he's still going through it.

Joe

Iron River Red
11-28-2005, 09:22 PM
I'll make sure I never buy property in that area. Most cops think that the good guy always comes to them to file a report first. Wrong! Most criminals know this is the best approach and use it themselves when they get a chance.

BruceB
12-29-2005, 01:01 AM
This is a three-page thread which concluded, apparently, with some sort of majority concensus that there is NO case history regarding handloads getting the shooter into hot water.

Over at

www.thehighroad.org

(which is a site well worth visiting frequently) there is an extensive discussion with considerable heat AND some light on the same subject. Go there, scroll down to the handloading forum, and see for yourself. On the very last page as of now, Massad Ayoob (yes, himself "in person") cites a few cases, places, what happened, and where to get the transcripts if needed.

"Are legal concerns over carrying handloads trivial?" is the thread title.

It didn't change anything for me, because I made my decision to carry factory loads many years ago. However, it's a wide-ranging discussion, and very interesting. The "Clark" individual first came to my attention back on the old Shooters' Board, and I thought he was an idiot then, with his hyper-loads and blowing up of guns, AND "attitude", and it seems that a few extra years haven't done much for his mental state.

Char-Gar
12-29-2005, 09:00 PM
I favor the 1911 pistol having two Norincos and one Colt. I have been shooting 452423 in the autopistol since 1962 or so. Loaded over 4.5 - 4.8/BE it would settled any social problems I might have. I have one of the Lee 6 hole 45-230-BD but have not tried it yet. I don't see why it won't do just as well.

I think I would cast 452423 out of Linotype for serious use. Lino reduces the weight to 230 grains, which gives a hair more velocity and a better POI with fixed sights.

Either of the aforementioned bullets with their large meplats would be very effective social use. A quick double tap to the center of mass would put any agressor or the floor.

Edward429451
12-29-2005, 09:41 PM
I wont even buy 44 specials for my Bulldog, too cheap. It sits with 180g WC's in it, 12 or 14g's of 2400, would have to look to be positive. The speedloader holds 429421's also with 2400.

I do usually have factory Hydrashoks in my 45 but have been known to carry 225g TC lead also with 5.5 or 5.8g of w231.

BruceB
12-30-2005, 05:40 PM
Since my last post on this topic, there have been over 150 'hits'.

Again, I have to say that I have no horse in this particular race, since I carry factory loads for "social" purposes, and that is not going to change any time soon.

However, I have had many discussions/arguments on the subject over quite a few years, and I'm still very interested in the way it goes.

In the original sixty posts here, there are many, repeat, MANY, posters who make the same tired statement that there is no "case law" or evidence that anyone, anywhere in our land, has run into difficulty due to using handloads for self defence.

Now, ol' Massad Ayoob (for whom I have considerable respect) has posted REAL cases over on The High Road for anyone to see, and to read about the legal results of carrying handloads in those cases. Surely, some of the posters here have gone over to read what he has to report, but....not a single word here from anyone. Is this a case of "Don't confuse me with facts!"?

I freely agree that the odds of any one defensive case giving rise to such problems in court is small, but again Jeff Cooper's advice is sound: "The law of averages is faint comfort, IF YOU ARE THE EXCEPTION."

So, all the defensive-handload carriers are welcome to their choice, but DON'T try to tell the rest of us that the decision can NOT lead to a legal problem. As Ayoob himself stated on THR, there is an "urban myth" on the Internet boards about this "No Proof" BS, and that is why he went to the trouble of posting those cases. As I said above, I carry factory loads for CCW, and it's simply because it is A CONTROLLABLE FACTOR in a very uncertain arena, and anything that can be done to minimize my exposure in advance is very desireable.

Dang....having also said that I have no horse in the race, it appears that I have FOUND such an equine, climbed into the saddle, and am riding it once more. Oh, well.

Bret4207
12-30-2005, 06:36 PM
Interesting Bruce. I'll qualify my comments with a "I've never heard of" in this case.

BruceB
12-30-2005, 06:56 PM
Say, Bret;

D'you know, this might be the very first time I've seen you post at some time OTHER than about 0400??

Wassamatter? Is the crime-busting business dropping off? Sure hope so...

Have a good SAFE day, huh??

waksupi
12-31-2005, 12:55 AM
Since my last post on this topic, there have been over 150 'hits'.

Again, I have to say that I have no horse in this particular race, since I carry factory loads for "social" purposes, and that is not going to change any time soon.

However, I have had many discussions/arguments on the subject over quite a few years, and I'm still very interested in the way it goes.

In the original sixty posts here, there are many, repeat, MANY, posters who make the same tired statement that there is no "case law" or evidence that anyone, anywhere in our land, has run into difficulty due to using handloads for self defence.

Now, ol' Massad Ayoob (for whom I have considerable respect) has posted REAL cases over on The High Road for anyone to see, and to read about the legal results of carrying handloads in those cases. Surely, some of the posters here have gone over to read what he has to report, but....not a single word here from anyone. Is this a case of "Don't confuse me with facts!"?

I freely agree that the odds of any one defensive case giving rise to such problems in court is small, but again Jeff Cooper's advice is sound: "The law of averages is faint comfort, IF YOU ARE THE EXCEPTION."

So, all the defensive-handload carriers are welcome to their choice, but DON'T try to tell the rest of us that the decision can NOT lead to a legal problem. As Ayoob himself stated on THR, there is an "urban myth" on the Internet boards about this "No Proof" BS, and that is why he went to the trouble of posting those cases. As I said above, I carry factory loads for CCW, and it's simply because it is A CONTROLLABLE FACTOR in a very uncertain arena, and anything that can be done to minimize my exposure in advance is very desireable.

Dang....having also said that I have no horse in the race, it appears that I have FOUND such an equine, climbed into the saddle, and am riding it once more. Oh, well.

Bruce, I havent went to the High road site to check it out, so I am probably unqualifie dto respond. I do know our local judge told me, there would be more possibility of liability using a commercial "Man stopper" load, than a handload that you shoot everyday, especially with records in you load books. The guy with the commercial killers, is more apt to be guilty of malice aforethought in his opinion, than someone with a handload with a "substandard" bullet.

Buckshot
12-31-2005, 05:19 AM
............Believe it or not this is the first time I've read this thread! But since it had to do obviously with handguns and carry loads (I'm not liscensed) I wasn't too interested. Neat read, BTW.

I have nothing to add to the thread except a couple things I cannot document as to who said them or when and where. One I thinck is attributable to Janet Reno and that was some comment about needing ammunition that, "Wasn't so deadly". Actually I think "Less deadly" would be the more accurate quote.

I'm sure we all recall the furor over Winchester's "Black Talon" ammunition? Winchester said they would quit making that un-PC nasty stuff. HA, high tech, deadly, engineered unbelieveable death dealing satan inspired bullets. I remember places in the Shotgun News advertising they had the ammo for sale, so you'd better get some right now! Interesting that the price was 3X suggested retail?

One thing that always mystified me was their comment about it's 'Buzz Saw Effect". Really neat photo's of the jacket and core peeled back in sawtoothed petals. Obviously people who didn't know picked up on the vision of a Dremel tool gone wild as it passed through? From most 30 cal's sporting a 10" twist I think the slug would make 1 revolution as it passed through the average social target, right? Very interesting that Winchester merely re-named and repackaged it and the furor ended. I think it's even better engineered now then it was then.

I find it interesting that a jury could be swayed by the fact that some victim who used a firearm to defend themselves and household could be held accountable because their ammunition was 'Too deadly'. Now I could see something like that if the victim used a LAW or RPG. Of course the forensics techs would still have some DNA they could swab up, and it would be a savings to the county as no autopsy would be required :D But probably not the best choice in an apartment scenario.

....................Buckshot

BruceB
12-31-2005, 05:55 AM
Yep, and the REALLY funny thing about Winchester taking "Black Talon" off the market is that they just stopped making the bullets black, and re-packaged the ammo as "Ranger SXT". Same stuff, apart from that.

It is supposed to be good ammunition. I do like the Dremel analogy. The fools in the media don't understand that the bullet is only rotating once for every 10"-16" of travel as it leaves the barrel, depending on the rifling pitch.

Buckshot
12-31-2005, 06:05 AM
..............Hey Bruce. Here we are sharing the mid watch again, eh?

................Buckshot

BruceB
12-31-2005, 06:52 AM
Midnight Cowboys, that's us! I spend a fair bit of time on these night watches over at Freerepublic.com, where there are usually interesting news items and discussion being posted all night long. Very conservative-minded place, which agrees with my political outlook.

I'll be here tomorrow night, too, while the rest of the world gets snockered on New Years' booze and fevered emotion.

I'm too old for all that nonsense. If I go out drinking, I don't even get particularly relaxed, before I get sleepy. Must be Mother Nature's way of telling me to sit down and behave myself?

I believe it's one of the guys at Accurate Reloading whose signature line goes:

"I may not be as good as I once was, but I'm as good ONCE as I ever was..."

Lotta truth there for a lotta folks.

Bret4207
12-31-2005, 07:52 AM
Boy you guys really make me miss mid nights. Like hemmoroids! I only have to work one or two a month now. Not bad at all.

Bruce- 0400 to you is around 6:30-7:00AM here in the sissified east. 0400 is when I'm in the barn or chipping ice off the truck.

Not to be diagreeable but I think a lot of the issue over handloads vs factory that Ayoob (I don't share your high opinion of him I fear) and his type write about is a bit hyped. It's how they make their living. No doubt a civil trial can bring up the uglier side of a shooting and some of the "evidence" that can be brought forth is less evidence and more for emotional impact. I checked the High Road but didn't see anything by Ayoob or on this subject in 20 minutes of browsing. I'm sure it happens and I'm sure in most, not all, cases it won't be a factor. My luck woould be me being the 10% that the issue affects.

Since I really don't want to try the arguement on for size I'll just avoid crack houses, bad bars, attending Hells Angels rallies, foolling with the wife of a jealous guy, dealing drugs and robbing banks. That should cut my risk by at least 10%. I'd tell you I'd keep my fat yap shut, but my record on that is dismal so I'll just hope for the best.

Char-Gar
12-31-2005, 10:44 AM
Bruce..While I no longer do these things, I spent considerable time as an Attorney and did allot of criminal law on both the defense and prosecution side. I do have a reasonable understanding of our Criminal Justice sytem. I have discussed this issues face to face with several score attorneys and sitting judges. I have seen this issue batted about ad nasuem on the internet with LEOs and Attorneys chiming in.

To date, there is only one voice that says using handloads is a problem and that is Massad Ayoub himself. This is the fellow that started the whole notion and sold many articles on the basis of that notion. He does have a "dog in the fight".

I guess it boils down to whether you believe Mass Ayoub or the legal community. I will put my faith in what I and others involved in the issue know rather than Ayoub. It is like the old saying.."What are you going to believe..me or your own eyes?"

Now as to his cited cases. Any student of current affairs in the US, will note some truly off the wall rulings in some cases. Rulings that make you wonder if the judge or jury is living on the same planet as the rest of the world. With the size, complexity and diversity of judges and juries, anything can and will happen from time to time.

I have seen some juries return a verdict that defies all known concepts of reality. On the civil side, I have seen Judges render a judgment NOV (non obstanti veridicto/verdict not withstanding) that just throws the jury verdict out, because it is so off the wall. I have also seen wacko judges let such nonsense stand.

The test is not if some judge or jury did this or that, but whether the notion has become fixed law and recognized as such. If you had a list of every odd ball, absurd ruling you would be affraid to get out of the bed in the morning, if you took them as having some personel significance.

I don't expect this little missive to convince anybody who is impressed with a "noted gunwriter, author, and teacher", but I am not among the number so impressed. As I said, way up this thread..I have grown very tried of this subject. It is truly a non-issue, but Ayoub continues to stir the pot and get the folks all spun up.

If I can possible hold my tongue (fingers?) this is the last I am going to say on the issue for the rest of my natural life.

Shuz
12-31-2005, 11:05 AM
Charles, very well said.
Thank you for your "missive".
Shuz

9.3X62AL
12-31-2005, 12:30 PM
Chargar--

Well said, sir--and I agree completely.

Midnight Cowboys.......in the context of Buckshot's threat to go varmint hunting last spring in a pink ascot while riding in a VW Cabrio convertible.......that reference is PROFOUNDLY disturbing. :-)

Scrounger
12-31-2005, 12:36 PM
If you will note, both sides in any case will have an attorney. Because that's what lawyers do. If you are sued for shooting someone, it won't make one whit of difference what kind of ammunition you used. If you used military FMJ ammo expecting help from the Geneva Convention, the lawyer will claim you wanted to get maximum penetration; if you used hollowpoint, then you were trying to get maximum expansion and tissue damage. Lead bullets might be construed as an effort to get deep penetration and carry foreign matter (lube) into the body to cause infection. The lawyer will take whatever you use and construe it as an effort to do something bad. That is simply the way it is going to be. Just pray you are never put in such circumstances.

StarMetal
12-31-2005, 12:52 PM
Buckshot said: Obviously people who didn't know picked up on the vision of a Dremel tool gone wild as it passed through? From most 30 cal's sporting a 10" twist I think the slug would make 1 revolution as it passed through the average social target, right?

Come on Rick, you know better then that. Yes that is what the slug would be doing while IN the barrel, not once it is free. Remember Dan's 200,000 rpm contest?

My best friend always says "Better to be judged by 12 then carried by 6."

Scounger is right, don't matter what bullet you used the attorneys will make it look bad no matter what.

All I know is I got up today and turned the news on (bad mistake there) and there are just killings going on all over the globe today and it's just sickening, just too much, too much. I've had enough. My God, what has my God created when he created man? A T-Rex? A Great White? A Raptor? Why does it have to be this way? Okay Okay I get the point God, you are the Almighty and you are the way to salvation, Jesus is Lord. I bow and pray before thee. Can the killing stop now please? Either that or would you please send Jesus back now and make it all go away?

Joseph ....my Biblical name.

Leftoverdj
12-31-2005, 01:07 PM
In my carry days, my usual choice was a Charter Bulldog with very heavily loaded 180 grain WC .44 Specials. Legal considerations did not even enter into that choice. I was looking for the most power I could get into the smallest package and very dubious about the expansion of existing bullets at the attainable velocities.

felix
12-31-2005, 01:13 PM
Tread lightly, Joe. Try to take to heart the first two Commandments. ... felix

robertbank
12-31-2005, 04:08 PM
While appreciate your tort laws are really quite different than ours, self defense is self defense no matter which side of the 49th you are on. If your life is in danger and there is no question that it was you are looking at a justified use of lethal force no matter the means. If you life wan't threatened and you were just having a bad hair day and decided to end the argument by force then you are going to be in hot water no matter what you have in your gun.

I understand it varies from State to State down your way but shooting somebody while they are running away is going to be difficult to defend or claim some how your life was threatened.

I carry 200 gr LSWC in my 1911 'cause they will do as much damage as any other boolit out there and I can hit what I am aiming at within defensive distances. A miss with a hand cannon is just another miss, so to a factory load in .45acp, but then I am up against Black Bears not two legged BG's.

Stay Safe

KCSO
12-31-2005, 08:48 PM
RPM has no relation to how many times a bullet will turn in a body. A bullet leaves the barrel of a gun at say 1000 fps and turns just 1 complete revolution in 16". If your body is 16" thick the bullet makes one turn in you. That was why I alway laughed at the press given the Black Talon round. Just because it came with points didn't mean it cut like a buzz saw. By actual experiment on clay pack the bullet made 1/2 turn going through a 9" section. This is a somewhat average body width for a 170 lb man.

When I am not on duty I carry a 1911 with 200 swc and 6.2 of Unique. This load has never jammed or ftf for me and has killed dogs, hogs, deer, cows, gophers and beaver, possum, coon and badgers, an occasional coyote and Yes, Carpetman, CATS, Lots of CATS.

Hang Fire
12-31-2005, 10:57 PM
BruceB

FREEgards FRiend, I too be a FReeper. And, I too will be home on the puter tonight, my rowdy New Year's days are long gone, I likely will not even blow the anvil out in the back yard at the stroke of midnight.

My first hope is that I never have to fire on another person, my second hope is, if I ever do, that I have enough gun to resolve the thing quickly. I keep 225 gr. cast RN in the old 1911A1, locked and cocked, with one in the snout and 7 in the clip. Wife carries a little DA .380 with 13 rd. clip of Rem. 102 gr. JHP's, and we are seldom alone.

Buckshot
01-01-2006, 01:07 AM
"...............Buckshot said: Obviously people who didn't know picked up on the vision of a Dremel tool gone wild as it passed through? From most 30 cal's sporting a 10" twist I think the slug would make 1 revolution as it passed through the average social target, right?

Come on Rick, you know better then that. Yes that is what the slug would be doing while IN the barrel, not once it is free. Remember Dan's 200,000 rpm contest?"

..............So you mean to say the bullet, once free of the barrel gathers some energy from 'someplace' and spins faster? Does it also increase it's forward velocity with this energy infusion? I have been of the conviction that once free of the barrel the bullet immediately begins slowing in forward motion, and rotational velocity also falls, but at a slower rate.

You know, my grandfather (bless his heart) had me convinced long ago that the 30-06 was so powerfull that once free of the muzzle the bullet took a jump upwards. I suppose it was glad to be free of the confines of the barrel? With that old 1903 Springfield and it's battle sights of 547 yards, when shooting at 50 yards and finding the bullet about 4" above POA, a person might just think the bullet did do a leap for joy upon exiting the muzzle. :D

......................Buckshot

Char-Gar
01-01-2006, 08:19 AM
Scrounger...You nailed it dead on!

Starmetal .... Amen!

StarMetal
01-01-2006, 01:25 PM
Buckshot

We discussed this on the forum long ago. I'll also tell you one gun rag guy that thinks the same as I'm about to talk about there and that is Rick Jamison.

When I first got my AR15 1/7 twist I was living in Denver. I took it praire dog hunting with issue Winchester 55 gr FMJ bullets. I my first praire dog at 100 yards and walked up to see the damage. All I found was a strip of hide on a thistle bush that was about 1/4 inch wide and 4-5 inches long. The rest of the area was sprewed with juice and blood...and well yucky stuff. Also I met a fellow there at that had a 22-250 and he was using soft points and hollow points and started hunting together. At the end of all this, he (and me too) were just astonished how my little 223 was destroying praire dogs far more devastating then his 22-250. Well I got to thinking about that at home and so I called Sierra. First question they asked me was if my AR has the 1/12 twist or 1/7. I said 1/7. They said you have any idea of how fast that bullet is spinning? I said oh around 220,000. They said no, more like in the 300,000 and at that rpm it didn't matter what design my bullet was, it was going to explode whatever it hit. Jamison came to the same conclusion, that faster rifling twist impart more energy into that bullet, that there is such a thing as rotation energy.

I believe there is a difference in bullet rotation when it's inside the barrel and when it's free. Other things to think about is that bullet had resistance working directly on it traveling forward, thus the reason it's velocity slows down the farther out it gets, but the rotational resistance is alot less, in fact it would have to be alot less being it's not confined inside a barrel. So what really happens?

Joe

robertbank
01-01-2006, 01:44 PM
If your barrel twist rate is 1:7 then the bullet rotates as it leave the barrel once every 7". so if your Prairie Dog is 7" think the boolit will turn once as it passes through it's body. Unless your prairie dogs are bigger than the ones on this side of the 49th your boolit will likely turn maybe a half turn as it passes through the animal.

I think your friend at Sierra need to figure out how long it takes for your boolit to go 4".

Energy involves velocity and mass - to early in the morning ti discuss HAtcher's formulas.

Stay Safe

StarMetal
01-01-2006, 02:31 PM
The rpms of a bullet are deteremined by the velocity and rifling twists. How is it the Swedes have a hard time shooting cast bullets when their twist is only a few inches short of ones that shoot cast bullets great? How do you explain the rpms of a bullet being 200,000 or 300,000 thousand? Yeah in theory if it was fired from a 1/10 twist it makes only one turn in 10 inches..but what does the velocity do that rpm?

Joe

robertbank
01-01-2006, 02:45 PM
Duplicate

robertbank
01-01-2006, 02:48 PM
The short answer is nothing. What you are forgetting is you are talking revolutions per MINUTE. How long does it take for a boolit to travel 4" at 180,000 feet per minute (3,000 feet per second X 60)

The speed of travel of the boolit has nothing to do with the amount of revolutions the twist rate will impart but rather how long it takes to impart the rate of spin.

I am assuming your late departed prairie dog is 4" thick.

You can do the math to calculate what the revolutions per minute is, how far the boolit travels in a minute then calculate how much time it takes to go 4". At the end of the day you will work back to approx. 1/2 revolution for 4" ( Assuming the boolit turns once in 7")

Stay Safe

Bret4207
01-01-2006, 04:06 PM
So Joe- The guy shooting the 22-250 is going to have his boolit going, what, maybe 7-800fps faster than your 223? If he has a 1/10 twist and you have a 1/7 won't the extra velocity make up for some of the twist? Seems logical to me. Unless of course there is some magical free energy gained by the bullet once it leaves the muzzle. Any chance the 250 shooter was using a design with a heavier jacket than you were? All this kind of makes me wonder why my 22-250 40 grainers at 4000 fps don't just plain vaporize when they hit a moist spot in the atmosphere. Does the vaporizing of the target happen at a particular rpm?

Hang Fire
01-01-2006, 04:12 PM
I recall reading that during the 1885 Metis rebellion in Canada, the army surgeons were appalled at the tissue damage inflicted upon wounded troops from round balls used by some of the Metis in their muzzleloaders, as compared to that by the conicals from cartridge rifles used by others.

robertbank
01-01-2006, 04:25 PM
The twist rate really only effects how stable the boolit will be in flight. This is one reason why the .308 Win will handle light weight boolits better than the 30-06 and conversly why the 30-06 handles heavier bolits better than the .308. Different twist rates.

The impact of a two identical boolits shot at the same veloicity from two different cartridges eg. .308/.30-06 will be identical, all else being equal. Just physics. Doesn't matter what cartridge they are shot from.

Stay Safe

Scrounger
01-01-2006, 04:36 PM
I've shot a few prairie dogs in my time and have come to this conclusion on bullets. Maybe they can make a bullet that blows up faster than some other bullet in a lab, but out there, in my experience, one does as good a job of killing them as another. Maybe the high-price well-advertised bullets are like fishing lures, designed to catch fishermen, not fish... The el cheapo Remington bullets do just as good a job tearing 'dogs up as the Noslers do. But they can't match the expensive ones in accuracy, so there's your reason to buy them. What I've seen is that distance is the biggest factor in satisfying displays of destruction. I've never tried Joe's FMJs but ordinary Remington 50gr .22 bullets will give you the same theatrics at 100 or 150 yards as the others; out at 300 or 400 all of them pretty much just penetrate and kill. I've never done an autopsy but there is little theatrical display such as bodies coming apart or flying 10 feet in the air that we get at shorter ranges. And the .223 is all you need for the job. The extra 500 fps you get in the .22-250 or Swift doesn't get you any more blowups nor does it extend the range you can hit them, too many other factors involved there. For a different feeling, try the .17 Remington. It will kill as far as the other calibers and is no more wind sensitive in the practical world. But it's lack of recoil lets you see the bullet impact and that is most satisfying. By the way, 600 rounds of .223 a day was all I could handle, my eyes wouldn't work right after that. I'll bet the extra recoil and muzzle blast of the bigger calibers would shut anyone down a lot quicker.

robertbank
01-01-2006, 04:39 PM
My little .22LR Sureshot used to do a number on gophers up here but at a lot closer distances I have to admit. Think they are the same animal.

Stay Safe

Bob

grumble
01-01-2006, 05:09 PM
My little .22LR Sureshot used to do a number on golphers up here but at a lot closer distances I have to admit. Think they are the same animal.

Bob, is there a season there on golphers? Here, golphers are protected, even though everyone makes fun of them.

StarMetal
01-01-2006, 05:13 PM
You fellows are blowing wind if you think two alike calibers, but one with an extremely fast twist, shooting the same bullets do the same damage on animals. I forgot to say my best friend heard about my tales of my fast twist AR15 tearing up praire dogs with FMJ bullets so he and I went out one day and he brought along a Sako 223 bolt gun with the 1/12 twist. He walked alway impressed at what the difference the 1/7 twist made. He again was using soft points. Ask Buckshot about the ph call I gave him complaining about shooting a 60 gr Hornady V-Max out of my AR15 to dispatch a dog that killed one of my goats and although I killed him how unimpressed I was with the bullet because it literally vapourized after penetrating that dog. We both came to the conclusion that the dog was too large of an animal to have shot with my rifle/bullet combination...and that out of normal twist 223's the bullet performs like Hornady claims...my twist just made it alittle too explosive, unless I was shooting something smaller like praire dogs or groundhogs. To give you an idea I shot a milk jug full of water at 100 yards and the bullet never made it throught the jug....a 60 gr 223 bullet !!!! I posted the pick of the jug after I shot it, it just didn't explode it, it shattered the plastic and the plastic on those milk jug is not brittle.

Joe

Bret4207
01-01-2006, 05:39 PM
I shot a milk jug full of water with a Higgenburger J35 .22768 47.345 gr boolit with the wasp waisted ultra holler point nose at 67 thousand and 99 foots a second. I got a ragged one hole group with that one shot, but the jug charged me 'cuz it was only wounded. I hada give it 3 more rounds with my 25 ACP before it'd stop twitchen. When I shot I was in my Toyota pickem up and she was running about 2500 rpm. I figure that was the problem. About then I got a phone call from the Leauge of Women Voters and they said I was twisted. I sent them a picture and darn near got arrested. Now I stick to shooting at catz.

I think I caught whatever Carpetmen has. Musta blown here on that wind.

Scrounger
01-01-2006, 05:50 PM
Years ago when I bought my first AR15, I had the experience of seeing 50gr Sierrs Blitz bullets blow up in mid-air before they reached the target. One possible explanation for what Joe experienced is possibly the bullets are severely damaged before it leaves the barrel even, and then the jacket further tearing and lead leaking in flight, so that what hits the animal is a very jagged, rough chunk of metal, very unlike the smooth ballistic bullet from a smoother barrel with a more gentle twist? (60 words in that sentence, a new record?)

StarMetal
01-01-2006, 06:45 PM
Art,

Nope, that's not what is happening, at least for me. I pulled some 40 gr hollow point bullets from some 22 rimfire magnums. I max loaded them in my 1/7 AR 15. I didn't have a chrono, but we know a 55 gr bullet is going to go 3000 to 3100 fps, so these 40 grainers had to be going faster. They didn't blow up, I didn't see any blue vapor mist and the bullet not hit the target, they hit the target, at 25 yards, 50 yards, and 100 yards. The fact is that the bullets out of an AR15 with a 1/7 twist that exit at 3000 fps or over are spinning in that 300,000 bracket (yes grant you in one minute) and they impart alot more energy into the animal.

Joe

waksupi
01-01-2006, 08:30 PM
My little .22LR Sureshot used to do a number on golphers up here but at a lot closer distances I have to admit. Think they are the same animal.

Stay Safe

Bob

Bob, are you shooting those Richardson's ground squirrels up there? I've shot a truck load of those in Alberta.

robertbank
01-01-2006, 09:41 PM
Yes they are Richardson Ground Squirrels. As a kid we just called them golphers. They are not a Prairie Dog if my zoology memorary is correct. You must have them in Montana as well do you not? I believe the true Prairie Dog is now protected in Southern Alberta where it formerly roamed.

Interesingly until they started building bridges across the North Saskatchewan River golphers had no way of invading Alberta above the river. Have not been back for sometime but I know there wan't many above the river when I left in 1987.

Grumble if we are talking about the same animal, than the answer is nope. They are viewed as a pest, raise hell with the cattle with their golpher holes. They breed like sexually active rabbits. We used to drown them out with buckets of water as kids then stab them with our hunting knives and WW11 bayonets back then. Not really politically correct, can you imagine telling that to a Liberal up here - we would have a ban on table knives with a blade longer than 4". LOL


Stay Safe

Scrounger
01-01-2006, 10:52 PM
Western Montana has the squirrels, eastern montana the prarie dogs. Last time I was up that way, Utah, Wyoming, and Montana considered them pests and no license was required to shoot them. Arizona and Colorado require hunting licenses and that is the extent of my knowledge. Some other states have them but I don't know if they are protected or not.

waksupi
01-02-2006, 12:14 AM
We have Columbian ground squirrels on this side of the divide. There are Richardsons in some areas on the east side, but not like Alberta. I hear the farmers up around High River will buy you ammo to cut down on the populations. Prairie dogs are a bit further east in Montana.

Buckshot
01-02-2006, 06:42 AM
.............Up in the extreme NE portion of California (Modoc Cnty) where Deputy Al and I ajourn to before NCBS, the ground squirrels are Columbians. In 2004 all we were ablt to shoot at for the most part were young adolescents. I 2005 in an area about 8 miles to the south, the action was hot and heavy with mixed adults and adolesents.

One spot I found had so much activity that I actually warmed up the barrel on a Rem 581 bolt action 22RF, and the weather was cool and drizzely!

I forget the name of the ground squirrels in So. Calif I used to shoot, but they were larger and more akin to tree squirrels with longish bushy tails. They were very tough and a solid body hit was seldom enough to anchor them.

Has this thread morphed, or what :-)?

................Buckshot

StarMetal
01-02-2006, 09:19 AM
Just of the hell of it one day my best friend (actual childhood best friend) and decided to take some 22 rimfires praire dog hunting in Colorado. He had the original 22 Magnum he had when were were teeny boppers growing up, a Savage with a 6x scope. I had my Remington 541S custom sporter and I had been bragging it up all along that his gun was going to get out shot. He laughed. He didn't laugh after the end of the hunt. I had only been teasing him, especially about distance, but not accuracy. That Remington is deadly accurate. But I outshot him distance wise too, and he's a pretty good shot. One shot impressed both of us. That day I was using CCI hollowpoints. My farthest shot on a praire dog was 250 yards. Being astonished alone that I hit him, it killed him instantly. So my friend Carl said we have to go down and see what kind of damage that 22 CCI did to him. We were impressed, it just didn't punch a hole in him, but it actually kind of broke him up inside, he had that water balloon feel. That's pretty dang far for a 22 LR to have that kind of performance.

I really had alot of fun hunting praire dogs in CO. I used alot of rifles, from the AR15 to believe it or not my Sako 7mm mag with the Lyman 150 gr Loverin. It shot those pretty decent, decent enough to shoot praire dogs oh out to say over 100 yards. Messed them up pretty good too. The game warden came by and he was impressed that cast shot that well. He warned me not to pick up the dogs as they sometimes harbor the flea that carried the bubonic plague. He also said don't be sitting on the mounds either as they've been known to be good hiding spots for rattlers. Hey, what's an eastern boy know bout that?

Joe

grumble
01-02-2006, 12:03 PM
Bob, I was just teasing you about the "golphers" (golfers). I've heard of 'gophers," but not 'golphers.'

robertbank
01-02-2006, 12:21 PM
[smilie=l: [smilie=l: [smilie=l: Hey I missed that. Must be the Jan 1 fog! don't not which is worse my tipying or my spielling. :wink:

Trust all is well and all the best in the new year.

Stay Safe

Bob

Leftoverdj
01-02-2006, 12:58 PM
All this kind of makes me wonder why my 22-250 40 grainers at 4000 fps don't just plain vaporize when they hit a moist spot in the atmosphere. Does the vaporizing of the target happen at a particular rpm?

They can. I've seen it.

carpetman
01-02-2006, 04:17 PM
Buckshot is 100% certain the ground squirrels are Columbian as Dep Al had a drug testing kit to ascertain this.