Is a wadcutter a wadcutter?

[brewer12345]

Has anyone played with different wadcutter molds? I shoot a lot of them and the first mold I bought was a double cavity Lyman 358495 from a member here. I like the mold and the boolits it produces, but a double cavity is somewhat limiting. I have a 4 cavity ideal (don't know the mold number) on the way and am in on the group buy for the H&G50 rerun. Also toying with picking up a Lee 6 banger of the standard lube groove DEWC. This all leads me to wonder: can I use the boolits from these molds interchangeably? They all (supposedly) cast the same weight (except the 358495 - designed to drop at 140 grains and does 147 plus a hair for me), and when I see pictures of the various versions on the web the differences appear slight to me. Guess I will keep the output from different molds separate and experiment to see if they do the same stuff out of my guns, but I wondered if anyone could comment from experience.

[skeettx]

38 Special, light target load, they should almost all shoot the same.
I would suggest a trial when you get all the moulds and post the findings
Thanks
Mike

[Grmps]

The Lee 6 X boolit isn't as pretty ( in my opinion) but shoots the same.

[country gent]

I had a lyman 4 cavity wadcutter mould that cast a 160 grn wadcutter it was a tack driver in revolvers never tried it in the 1911 wadcutter pistol.

[OS OK]

209063 Lyman 358091, has a bevel base and taller button top above the crimp groove.

209064 Lee 358-148-WC, square base and shorter top above the crimp groove and smaller button.

I had intended to put them in the same box of ready to load cast but they take a different seater adjustment. The Lyman cast 2 at a time and the Lee cast 6 at a time.
The bevel base of the Lyman requires less belling than the Lee.
They both shoot clean and accurate but I like the Lyman over the Lee, the Lyman looks better when loaded...the Lee, not so much, if that makes any sense to you...I'm quirky that way.
Lower velocity, 750~840 FPS seems to keep them in tight groups in my Smith 14-4...sorta like shooting a 'pop gun'!

[brewer12345]

I had a lyman 4 cavity wadcutter mould that cast a 160 grn wadcutter it was a tarck driver in revolvers never tried it in the 1911 wadcutter pistol.

I shoot lots of them because they are very accurate. With the DEWC flavor I suspect they could be driven pretty darned fast in a 357 case. That said, these are target and small game fodder for me.

[tazman]

I shoot a lot of 38 special wadcutters in my revolvers. Over the years, I have owned nearly every wadcutter mold made. None shot significantly better than the others.
More important than choosing a mold or boolit design is proper fit to your cylinder and barrel. The boolit must be a close fit to the cylinder throats and slightly larger than the groove diameter of your barrel.
You can get away with the boolit being a press fit in the cylinder throats but it absolutely must seal the barrel. The boolit must leave the cylinder still being slightly larger than the groove diameter of the barrel to accomplish this.
If the boolit is a sloppy loose fit to the cylinder throats, it may not align correctly with the barrel and forcing cone causing poor accuracy.

[brewer12345]

I shoot a lot of 38 special wadcutters in my revolvers. Over the years, I have owned nearly every wadcutter mold made. None shot significantly better than the others.
More important than choosing a mold or boolit design is proper fit to your cylinder and barrel. The boolit must be a close fit to the cylinder throats and slightly larger than the groove diameter of your barrel.
You can get away with the boolit being a press fit in the cylinder throats but it absolutely must seal the barrel. The boolit must leave the cylinder still being slightly larger than the groove diameter of the barrel to accomplish this.
If the boolit is a sloppy loose fit to the cylinder throats, it may not align correctly with the barrel and forcing cone causing poor accuracy.

I have been happy with the results of sizing mine to .358.

[jsizemore]

Mine cast at .360 and I size to .358. I'm only lubing the groove closest to the base. I'm also only using a starting load in mixed headstamp brass so there's no chance of over pressure. I shoot these in 3 different revolvers and they shoot great. Lot's of fun and your not beating the gun to death.

[tazman]

I have been happy with the results of sizing mine to .358.

I size to .358 also. It just happens that the largest set of cylinder throats on my revolvers are .358. I have a couple of other revolvers with throats that measure .357 and the .358 sizing works well there too.

[azrednek]

Over the years I've tried various 38 wadcutters. They all seemed to shoot the same, no improvement over any of the others including the pain in the donkey to cast hollow base. Being that the TL Lee 6-banger is the easiest to cast with it my preferred. The only improvement I've seen was using store-bought swaged wad cutters from either Speer or Hornady.

[DerekP Houston]

I started with the RCBS 2 cavity 148 wadcutter, then got the lee 6 gang mold and the H&G 50bb. I've used the same light target charges for all of them so far, shoot to same POI in my guns at least. I load the H&G the most these days as the mold is just easier to cast with for me and the bevel base makes seating a cinch. I didn't intend on getting a 50bb but it has worked out well for me.

[David2011]

I have an old Saeco flat based 4 cavity WC mold. The business end is not perfectly flat; it has a slight conical shape to it- just enough to not be flat. It probably isn't any more accurate than any other but it sure casts nice!

[texassako]

Over the years I've tried various 38 wadcutters. They all seemed to shoot the same, no improvement over any of the others including the pain in the donkey to cast hollow base.

Same here. I have several Lyman 4 cavity molds, and usually my old 35891 gets the nod when I run low.

[trapper9260]

I have try out like was stated on here somewhere about use brass that is for WC and see how that went compare to non WC brass and I seen a differents that they shoot better for 38/357 usen the brass for WC. Now I will use the brass that is for WC, now for WC .

[Petrol & Powder]

I fought with the SAECO #053 WC mold for over a year before I gave up and went with the RCBS 38-148-WC.

The SAECO #053 has a single large lube groove in the middle of the bullet and a tiny crimp groove just behind the nose. Like most SAECO products it's beautifully made. It shot well but I just couldn't stop it from leading. So in teams of accuracy, it was fine but in actual use, not so much. It pains me to report this because I like SAECO & Redding gear and have had great luck with other SAECO products.

The RCBS 38-148 drops bullets around 155 grains +/- a bit depending on the alloy. They run around .359" and size to .358" nicely. It is a more traditional WC with three small lube grooves and a crimp groove. It shoots wonderfully, doesn't lead and would be perfect if RCBS would only add two more cavities! I'll probably find 4 cavity mold that has a similar design to supplement the RCBS.

209083

[OS OK]

Frankly Trapper...I can't see how 'WC' brass could make any difference in the world. We size, expand/flair, charge, seat and crimp...?...What could a cannelure on the brass do at that point?

[Petrol & Powder]

The WC brass has parallel walls from the mouth of the case down to about the base of the seated WC bullet. The standard 38 Special case is more tapered. Even with the expanding operation, a standard 38 Special casing will likely size the base of a WC bullet down to a smaller diameter. Because the full WC bullet is seated deeper in the casing than a regular bullet, the WC casings prevent the lower portions of the WC bullet from being sized down.

I was a bit skeptical of this as well but older/wiser members of this forum led me in the right direction. The expander on most 38 Special sizing dies will not expand the casing far enough (deep enough) to handle the entire WC bullet and even if it does; the thicker/tapered walls of a standard 38 Special casing will still thwart that effort.

The cannelure is an indicator of WC brass. The real difference isn't the second cannelure but rather the straight walls of the casing near the mouth.

[Rapidrob]

I've been shooting wad cutters out of .38's and .357's since the 70's.
The .38 Special was ideal for me for mid-range match shooting.
Back in the 80's I was issued a 1911 Bo-Mar Bar-Sto pistol to shoot in matches. I had access to a Ransom Rest and I worked up loads for the pistol in .38 Special.
The results showed a slight accuracy advantage to the hollow base wad cutter over the DEWC. The advantage was a group smaller than I could hold on target.
The hollow based WC skirt would swell and obdurate in the bore a little and that was the advantage.
Today I powder coat the DEWC. I'd like to see the results from a Ransom Rest using the PC'd bullets.

[Poygan]

Petrol and Powder, Could this effect be moderated by not seating the WC as deeply? Certainly the pistol could limit this as to how far out the WC could be seated. Additional space and fast powder could offset each other.

[Dale53]

Regarding WC brass...
It isn't the cannelure that is the problem, non-WC brass often has walls that are thicker as the case wall approaches the base. Thicker enough that it sizes the cast bullet base to undersize. THAT can lead to leading and inaccuracy.

WC brass walls remain thin below the base of the seated bullet. However, some modern "standard" .38 cases have case walls that are thin enough, down far enough, that it isn't a problem. I understand that present Starline cases work just fine with wadcutter bullets.

NOTE: Cast solid base wadcutters are shorter than the same weight in a hollow base. So-o-o-o, solid base wadcutters may not present the same problems as hollow base wadcutters (which in WC cases may shoot a bit more accurately than solid base wadcutters).

Me, I shoot a lot of wadcutters but they are all home cast bullets. My most shot wadcutters are from an original H&G #50 BB four cavity wadcutter mold. They shoot well under 1" at 25 yards off a rest, and that is accurate enough for me. I put my time and effort into SHOOTING (once I find a good load) and do NOT continually try to find some combination that will shoot 1/16" better at my chosen distance.

But, that is just me...

The above, in NO way, is intended in criticism of those who like to experiment on improving their load accuracy.

In recent years, I have been shooting mixed .38 brass simply so I can spend more time shooting and less time worrying about minutiae...

My rationale is that shooting time will lead to improvement in target performance far greater than trying to chase my tail hoping to "buy" a better score.

Again, that is just me...

FWIW
Dale53

[OS OK]

Yeah, I'm aware of this. The weak link in the chain is the length & diameter of the expander plug. I have an old RCBS .357" expander/decapper plug that will go deep enough into the case to compensate for the Lyman FWC (not deep enough for the Lee though), the rub with that unit is that it is .354" on the deep end of the expander and that is a diameter made for jacketed projectiles.
I've looked at the NOA expanders and can't tell without buying one what they'd do.
I would imagine that at least 1/2 the brassstuffers around that have their WC cases are expanding with the wrong expanders for the diameter of their cast anyway.
I suppose that if you went to a hollow base WC and shot it soft enough to obturate that it would solve the problem.

[brewer12345]

Interesting stuff. I find that my DEWCs shot best with a higher charge than real powder puff (3.8 grains of HP38). I wonder if the peppier load I use is more accurate because it helps the squeezed bullets obturate better? In any case, with (very) mixed 38 brass and a relatively easy/drama free loading process I get excellent accuracy so no worries.

For me the main benefit of HBWCs is that I can load them very light and still get good accuracy. 3.2 grains of HP38 and flush seating is accurate and very soft. I suspect I could go even lighter. Perhaps when I next need to load some up I will experiment with a 3 grain load.

[DerekP Houston]

Interesting stuff. I find that my DEWCs shot best with a higher charge than real powder puff (3.8 grains of HP38). I wonder if the peppier load I use is more accurate because it helps the squeezed bullets obturate better? In any case, with (very) mixed 38 brass and a relatively easy/drama free loading process I get excellent accuracy so no worries.

For me the main benefit of HBWCs is that I can load them very light and still get good accuracy. 3.2 grains of HP38 and flush seating is accurate and very soft. I suspect I could go even lighter. Perhaps when I next need to load some up I will experiment with a 3 grain load.

for hp38 I've been using ~3.1gr. The lee autodisk .30 hole worked perfect for my setup, now with the hornady powder measure I can do more fine tuning.

[tazman]

Petrol and Powder, Could this effect be moderated by not seating the WC as deeply? Certainly the pistol could limit this as to how far out the WC could be seated. Additional space and fast powder could offset each other.

Your idea is correct. If you seat the wadcutter out to the oal of a standard semi wadcutter you do away with the case sizing the base of the bullet smaller. The Lyman 358432 was designed for that very purpose and works well. You can also crimp the full wadcutter in one of the top lube grooves and accomplish the same thing.

[deltaenterprizes]

The WC brass has parallel walls from the mouth of the case down to about the base of the seated WC bullet. The standard 38 Special case is more tapered. Even with the expanding operation, a standard 38 Special casing will likely size the base of a WC bullet down to a smaller diameter. Because the full WC bullet is seated deeper in the casing than a regular bullet, the WC casings prevent the lower portions of the WC bullet from being sized down.

I was a bit skeptical of this as well but older/wiser members of this forum led me in the right direction. The expander on most 38 Special sizing dies will not expand the casing far enough (deep enough) to handle the entire WC bullet and even if it does; the thicker/tapered walls of a standard 38 Special casing will still thwart that effort.

The cannelure is an indicator of WC brass. The real difference isn't the second cannelure but rather the straight walls of the casing near the mouth.

I verified that by cutting a piece of wadcutter brass long ways and there is no taper to the head of the case!

[OS OK]

Here's an excellent read about Wad Cutters from one of our own...

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?156622-75-000-Wadcutters-in-a-Model-27

Mentored by Ed Harris & 75K WC's under his belt...I'd say he knew what he wrote of.

[tazman]

Interesting stuff. I find that my DEWCs shot best with a higher charge than real powder puff (3.8 grains of HP38). I wonder if the peppier load I use is more accurate because it helps the squeezed bullets obturate better?

Many people have found that to be true. I am not certain if it as, like you said, the boolits obdurate better at higher pressures or if they stabilize better at slightly higher velocity.
Many competitors use faster loads to get their scores up for the 50 yard range. Light load wadcutters are notorious for becoming unstable beyond 25 yards in some handguns.

[Petrol & Powder]

Petrol and Powder, Could this effect be moderated by not seating the WC as deeply? Certainly the pistol could limit this as to how far out the WC could be seated. Additional space and fast powder could offset each other.

Perhaps but one of the advantages of seating a wadcutter deep in the case is to reduce that extra volume and use that small powder charge more efficiently.

[tazman]

Perhaps but one of the advantages of seating a wadcutter deep in the case is to reduce that extra volume and use that small powder charge more efficiently.

While it does do that, I always thought seating the wadcutter deep was so it could be used in a semi-auto handgun such as the 1911 and S&W 52.

[Jack Stanley]

At the longer distances I think the wadcutters with the slight button nose work a little better . At the twenty-five yard line I don't think it matters near as much .


Jack