Savage 10ML-II explosions?

[cuzinbruce]

I just came across this today.
"Gun maker's exploding rifle leaves trail of injured hunters"
Here is the link:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/gun-makers-exploding-rifle-leaves-trail-of-injured-hunters/2017/12/05/9ae8aa1e-d9eb-11e7-a241-0848315642d0_story.html?utm_term=.304f2cfe1372

If you have any trouble with the link, just google the quoted line. It is an AP story and a lot of papers have it.
Amazing that a stainless steel ML barrel would blow up.
Anyone else know anything about this?

[Traffer]

I just read the story. This gun by Savage is made for smokeless powder. Smokeless powder and muzzle loaders just don't do well together. That is all I know.

[NSB]

I owned one of these for many years. I can tell you for a fact that there is a dedicated group of shooters who have made it their life's work to squeeze every bit of velocity out of these things by using non-recommended powders, sabotless loads, booster charges, etc, etc, etc. You can view their shared comments on dougsmessageboard.com. I too experimented with my gun and even rebarreled it to a 45cal so I could shoot it without sabots or use it with sabots as a 40cal. Some of the people doing this are getting close to 3,000 fps with some of their loads. To date, I'm not aware of even one of this group having a gun explode or having any of them get injured by following the guidelines they have developed. I'm not saying that Savage couldn't have made a defective gun, I'm saying that based on the knowledge that there are a group of Savage ML2 shooters out there experimenting, someone may have taken some liberties with their own gun thinking it was safe to substitute powders and/or powder charges in their own gun. FWIW, Savage does not recommend using heavy bullets in their Savage ML2 rifles. They strongly suggest never using a bullet weighing over 300 grains.

[Moleman-]

I've got one, and put 20 rounds or so through it this past Sunday. it's very accurate and performs great even with a starting load. Before I shot mine for the first time I looked through many of the failed rifle reports and found many of them were caused by user error. Some didn't have a clear reason in the short article or post as to why they failed so I cannot rule out a design or metal issue. Muzzle loading black powder guns in general are very forgiving of varying charge and bullet weights where as a smokeless muzzle loader is more like a cartridge rifle where you should stick to proven loads and weigh out the charges like a rifle and not use a volumetric powder measure that you'd use for black powder. My Son was shooting my old Knight inline along side me. He was using 80gr of 777 and a 240gr xtp. The rifle he was using is rated up to 120 gr of powder. The guy shooting next to us was using 150gr of 777 pellets in his Traditions. I'm fairly sure if I put 120gr or 150gr of N110 in my MLII and pulled the trigger it would end badly. I think alot of the issues have been from people thinking that they can vary components with a smokelss ML like they have with a black powder gun.

[NSB]

Darwin has a big role in this.

[Hickory]

Old saying:
Everyone is born with two bags.
One empty of experiences, the other full of luck.
The trick in life is to fill your empty bag with experiences before you run out of luck.

[Whiterabbit]

Washington post publishes a hit piece to strike fear into anyone that shooting a gun will explode at any moment?

I just can't believe WaPo would do that.

[cuzinbruce]

I hadn't realized they were made for smokeless powder until I googled the gun. I didn't think black powder could do it. No telling what actually happened.

[snowwolfe]

I have personal knowledge of one blowing up. Someone I know was having ignition issues with one of his (he owned two). He cleaned it, reloaded it, and held it down at his hip while he pulled the trigger again. The rifle exploded and blew off his left hand. I talked to him in depth about this and he said it was impossible for it to have a double charge and the bullet was seated properly. This guy was not a stranger to these rifles as him and his sons used them for years without issues.

Savage knows about these issues. Why do you think they stopped making them?

[M-Tecs]

Low sales is the reason they stop selling them. I have an original ml1 and an ml2. They are as strong as any modern large bore centerfire bolt gun. Compared to blackpowder and bp subs smokeless ml's have a smaller tolerance for people doing really stupid things.

[tomme boy]

The vent liner when worn is the problem. There are a bunch of other rifles out there that shoot smokeless. I have a few friends that had H&R rifles made into them. They stub a shotgun barrel. And they are extremely accurate. You just have to watch out for the plastic fouling. They can get about 7-8 shots and then have to be cleaned of the plastic.

[NSB]

I have personal knowledge of one blowing up. Someone I know was having ignition issues with one of his (he owned two). He cleaned it, reloaded it, and held it down at his hip while he pulled the trigger again. The rifle exploded and blew off his left hand. I talked to him in depth about this and he said it was impossible for it to have a double charge and the bullet was seated properly. This guy was not a stranger to these rifles as him and his sons used them for years without issues.

Savage knows about these issues. Why do you think they stopped making them?

It's not impossible to have a double charge, or even a triple charge. It's up to the person who's loading the gun to get it right. As far as "why did they quit making them", it was low sales. Savage came out a few years ago with another round of these guns being offered (in blue synthetic only) and they just didn't sell all that well. The market for them was saturated. Most people won't spend the money on a gun of this quality, preferring to buy a lot cheaper guns at big box stores. Same reason they sell cheap shotguns at a hundred to one ratio....most people simply don't want to spend the money. The vent liners would wear out on these guns and there were a lot of aftermarket suppliers making replacements at very affordable prices. You'd get forty shots out of the Savage vent liner and a couple of hundred out of the aftermarket. For most people, one spare would be a lifetime supply. I think I have eight on hand. Unfortunately, no one wants to take responsibility for their mistakes or acts of stupidity. It's a lot easier to blame someone else....and then sue them.

[lucifers]

anti gun left wing newspaper carries and anti gun story. Gee whiz I am shocked !

[pmer]

You're suppose to have around 25 pounds of force when seating the boolit. I wonder if any of these problems come from the primer pushing the charge apart from the boolit and then causing a obstructed barrel.

I wonder what Snowwolf's friend cleaned before he put it on his hip? Did he take the load out of the gun, clean, load then shoot?

[BPJONES]

I have personal knowledge of one blowing up. Someone I know was having ignition issues with one of his (he owned two). He cleaned it, reloaded it, and held it down at his hip while he pulled the trigger again. The rifle exploded and blew off his left hand. I talked to him in depth about this and he said it was impossible for it to have a double charge and the bullet was seated properly. This guy was not a stranger to these rifles as him and his sons used them for years without issues.

Savage knows about these issues. Why do you think they stopped making them?
[QUOTE=snowwolfe;4222587]I have personal knowledge of one blowing up. Someone I know was having ignition issues with one of his (he owned two). He cleaned it, reloaded it, and held it down at his hip while he pulled the trigger again. The rifle exploded and blew off his left hand. I talked to him in depth about this and he said it was impossible for it to have a double charge and the bullet was seated properly. This guy was not a stranger to these rifles as him and his sons used them for years without issues.

We will never know for sure but because he wasn't a stranger to the rifle is not much of a guarantee that he couldn't make a mistake. There have been several shotguns blow up on the trap range (or hunting situations) owned by very experienced shooters who shoot thousands of rounds per year and load their own shells. In the vast majority of cases it is because there was either a barrel obstruction or they had mistakenly overloaded with a double or triple dose of powder. Mistakes happen to anyone without he/she even knowing a mistake was made until it's maybe too late.

[snowwolfe]

I don’t know how he cleaned it, or what he cleaned it with. But my information came from an actual discussion from him. Nothing was here say or second hand.

[dave951]

One other factor here, smokeless powders can be temp sensitive. Work up a load that is on the edge, go shoot again in different ambient temps and it's now a pipe bomb.

[dondiego]

I have personal knowledge of one blowing up. Someone I know was having ignition issues with one of his (he owned two). He cleaned it, reloaded it, and held it down at his hip while he pulled the trigger again. The rifle exploded and blew off his left hand. I talked to him in depth about this and he said it was impossible for it to have a double charge and the bullet was seated properly. This guy was not a stranger to these rifles as him and his sons used them for years without issues.

Savage knows about these issues. Why do you think they stopped making them?

Why was he "hip shooting" it?

[kens]

my guess is that somebody loaded it with Bullseye or some such fast powder
Gosh, if you took a Rem 700, Win 70, or Weatherby rifle, and loaded a case full of Bullseye, what would happen?????

[snowwolfe]

Why was he "hip shooting" it?

I don’t know. I do remember he was shooting the same powder and bullet he always used.

[ourway77]

Human error 99% rifle malfunction 1% Savage did extensive testing of their muzzle loaders and recommended only certain powders. People tried to push the limit duplex loads etc. I have shot the Savage more than I can count w/o any problems. I now shoot a Remington/Brux 45 caliber 70 grains of IMR-4198 with various 250 to 300 grain bullets. I have watched many video's on shooting these Muzzle Loaders and yet to see only a few stress the use of a witness mark. Proven tested rifles don't blow up on their own people blow them up by unsafe negligent loading Good Luck and Good Hunting.

[Geezer in NH]

Why was he "hip shooting" it?Because that is how newbie shooters thinks is cool I bet.

Many years ago when they came out with the smokeless powder ML I knew it would come back to bite.

[snowwolfe]

Because that is how newbie shooters thinks is cool I bet.

Many years ago when they came out with the smokeless powder ML I knew it would come back to bite.

He wasn't a newbie to shooting. My guess is he had at least 25 years hunting and gun experience. But now all you people who were not even there, or knew anything about why it did blow, are now automatically experts as to the cause.
It wasn't just my friend who had one of these guns explode on him. Go back and read the article posted by the OP.

[Geezer in NH]

He wasn't a newbie to shooting. My guess is he had at least 25 years hunting and gun experience. But now all you people who were not even there, or knew anything about why it did blow, are now automatically experts as to the cause.
It wasn't just my friend who had one of these guns explode on him. Go back and read the article posted by the OP.
Then make some explanation why choose to shoot from the hip.

Seriously if it was to protect himself he failed. Total armature time IMHO friends like that will get hurt and possibly hurt others.

When in doubt test firing is done remotely so NOBODY gets hurt.

25 years experience in ignorance of safety. Yup get mad at me for saying the facts.

[snowwolfe]

Then make some explanation why choose to shoot from the hip.

Seriously if it was to protect himself he failed. Total armature time IMHO friends like that will get hurt and possibly hurt others.

When in doubt test firing is done remotely so NOBODY gets hurt.

25 years experience in ignorance of safety. Yup get mad at me for saying the facts.

I am not going to make any explanation as to why he shot from the hip. Many of you are quick to pounce on the messenger in your attempts to discredit what you don't what to hear or disagree with.

[bdicki]

I have one and really like it. There are many destroyed guns from reloads. Every shot from these guns are reloads.

[ourway77]

I had one and have shot it more than most, I shot 65 Grains of Re-7 with 250 Bullets I killed numerous deer with it. I was wondering with more and more Savage guns blowing up could it be that the rifle weakens with age? I realize most are human error. I almost did the nasty once but thank goodness after talking to some one I double loaded it If it wasn't for me checking and seeing my witness mark was far off It would have been an accident. I now shoot a custom build. Be safe Lou

[gunlover]

I had a friend tell me he had heard that some stainless steels are not as hard and tough as the regular steels used in firearm like chrome moly. Have any of you heard something like that? I don't know what to make of that rifle blowing up.

[M-Tecs]

SS has a lower hoop strength particularly when cold. Krieger used to state that on their web site. Not sure if it's still there.

[Squeeze]

Its not steel fatigue. How often do you hear of this in centerfire? Its in field handloading, without case size powder limitations, lack of focus and ramrod witness marks. Smokeless muzzleloading has no room for error. You just don't have double load, or short start problems with cased ammo. Its not a new to ML world kind of toy. just like a new to driving kid behind the wheel of a top fuel dragster. Its just not for everyone, and 90% of the internet "blown barrel" failures are intentional, done by disgruntled ex "pro staffers" out for the bad publicity. Probably 99.999% user error, and .001% equipment failure.

[Motor]

I've been reloading for over 30 years. I read this thread with interest because I was curious about the smokeless MLs.

I believe Squeeze hits the nail on the head. I too ML hunt and have been shooting ML's longer than I've been reloading. Black Powder and BP subs are very forgiving when it comes to powder charges. I obviously haven't tried it but am told you basically can't overload a muzzleloader with real black powder it will simply just make a bigger fire ball.

I do know for sure if you load a smokeless cartridge even 10% over the recommended maximum charge weight you'll likely see signs of over pressure. I can only imagine how easy it would be to over charge a smokeless power ML.

Motor

[waksupi]

Something to consider. Many of the inlines, and imports particularly, sell for less than the cost of a custom barrel for a traditional muzzle loader.

[Moleman-]

If you buy a new muzzle loader for the most part you get the opportunity to be the first person to fire it. Ever. Every Savage ML on the other hand gets proof tested before they leave the factory. The actions were also destruction tested to 126Kpsi and held.


from this article http://www.randywakeman.com/ballltd18.htm


"Did you know that EVERY SINGLE SAVAGE 10ML-II made today has a 100% proofed barrel? No other muzzleloader available today can lay claim to that. No Savage 10ML-II leaves the factory without a barrel that is proofed to in excess of 46,000 PSI. Not just a test sampling of barrels are so proofed, ALL OF THEM ARE. Also, every single Savage 10ML-II is also test fired prior to shipment. No other muzzleloader made today can make that claim either. The Savage 10ML-II has been destructive tested with massive charges of 4227 to bring the piezoelectric radial transducer to 129,000 PSI ! Stocks were broken, recoil lugs bent, but the barreled actions survived-- both intact and functional. For the record, the standard Savage 10ML-II service load is from approximately 33,400 to 36,000 PSI with a 250 grain saboted projectile. Always follow manufacturer's recommendations, as per the Savage Manual."

Squeeze and others have really hit upon what the issue is. I can't fit enough of certain correct use powders in my centerfire rifles to blow them up. Some you can, but for the most part if you try to fit a double charge of 4895 in a 308, 30-06 or 4198 in a 444 marlin it is going to massively overflow. I think we all know of someone who adds a "little more" powder when they reload and ML's are no different. You could for example fill the entire barrel of a MLII up with red dot if you wanted to make sure to blow it up. The evidence for a lot of the blow ups points to a double charge or a double loading (powder-bullet, powder-bullet) which will pretty much blow up any centerfire smokeless rifle. The proper use of witness marks can save your bacon and show if the shot column length is correct or if you have a double charge, double loading, bullet off powder ect which are all dangerous. When teaching my son to shoot his muzzle loader for the first time I relayed the stories of civil war rifles being found with numerous loadings in them. I also showed him how to use the ramrod and mark a standard load and figure out why the ramrod is sticking out too far before pulling the trigger. I make him check the ramrod before and after loading his rifle the same as I do. Little need to do it when you just shot the rifle, but it can't hurt and is a good habit when getting the ML out for the season to check that there wasn't a charge left in it from last year. I also gave him a bullet puller, showed him how to use it and told him not to be too proud to use it and to never try to "shoot out" a load that didn't closely match the ramrod witness mark.

[NSB]

Its not steel fatigue. How often do you hear of this in centerfire? Its in field handloading, without case size powder limitations, lack of focus and ramrod witness marks. Smokeless muzzleloading has no room for error. You just don't have double load, or short start problems with cased ammo. Its not a new to ML world kind of toy. just like a new to driving kid behind the wheel of a top fuel dragster. Its just not for everyone, and 90% of the internet "blown barrel" failures are intentional, done by disgruntled ex "pro staffers" out for the bad publicity. Probably 99.999% user error, and .001% equipment failure.

Absolutely the best answer so far. Anyone can buy and shoot one of these and know NOTHING about reloading, pressure, or anything else reloaders should understand. To some of those people who bought these guns they thin a little bit more powder might be better, and all smokeless powder is "about the same". I'm afraid that many think, "if some's good,more's better, and too much is just right". Don't assume that the people who bought and shoot these guns actually know what they're doing. Heck, we have enough "experienced" reloaders who don't know all they should.