Plunk Fail .45 a.c.p.

[joe3of3]

My .45 a.c.p. casts won’t pass a plunk test unless the C.O.L. is near 1.213”.

I’ve tried the full range of C.O.L., and of crimping. Casts, from Lee six cavity mold TL452-228-1R, measure 0.451” (shoulder and groove bands) after sizing with a Lee die. Two failed plunk after three passes through the sizer, which has been inspected. Lead is hard, with no, or super tiny dent from thumbnail tests. No case bulge measurable. Minimal seam lines. Dummy casts were unremarkable when removed from cases.

Black magic marker used around the boolit, from ¼” above, to ¼” below the case mouth becomes smeared, or removed, from one or two very small areas of the lead just above the case mouth when pliers used to turn the boolits where they stopped, about 0.068” from case rim to the barrel hood. Marks were near, but not at, seam lines from the mold; they still appear even when the very small seams were filed away.

If I can’t get the .45 a.c.p. right, I probably will not even try the 9mm, .38 Special and .45 Colt.
Why can’t I get my casts to pass a plunk test at a reasonable C.O.L.???

Thanks for any help offered. Sorry for the wordiness.

[mto7464]

so whats the problem?

[44MAG#1]

Are you turning the flaring of the case mouth back in enough? I generally crimp the case mouth to .468".
Or at least back to the diameter of the case with the bullet seated.

[tja6435]

You may need to throat your barrel so you can seat your bullet out farther

[claude]

Why do you consider 1.213 a fail? Lyman manuals list COAL's as short as 1.13. All I'm suggesting is that you might just have to live with what you get.

[DougGuy]

If you can look in the barrel from the chamber end and see rifling coming right down to the headspace ledge in the chamber mouth, then there is no freebore, or throat to speak of. This is typical with current production auto pistols of many makes and all calibers. Manufacturers just don't want to properly throat a barrel and so the boolit runs right into the rifling when the round is chambered. The proper thing to do is to have the barrel throated so you can use whatever COA you want to use.

Typical this Springfield Armory Range Officer barrel is stock from the factory on the left, with NO freebore, and after throating on the right. These throated barrels shoot lights out and run like a singer sewing machine.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/1f06c85f-3c7d-434b-9061-ca061af26de9_zps0aqi32iq.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/1f06c85f-3c7d-434b-9061-ca061af26de9_zps0aqi32iq.jpg.html)

[reddog81]

Seat the bullet so it functions in the gun. 1.21 isnt that short. Plenty 45 ACP bullets are loaded to shorter OAL lengths. Have you ever looked in a 45 ACP case after you drop the powder in? It's not like 9mm where changing .05 can make an it difference. Either that or spend the money and get a throat job on the barrel.

[kens]

Are you positively sure you are removing all the case mouth bell?
I didn't get really good feeding auto pistol reloads until I got a crimp die.
Now my reloads run like store bought ammo.

[Wayne Smith]

How does it run at that OAL? Do rounds chamber? If so, you don't really have a problem. If some do and some don't you may. If you have a boolit that you want to run (your mold, like my MIHC mold) and it isn't running, then contact Dougguy and get him to throat it. He did both of mine and crowned the muzzles to boot, while I watched. Well worth the money. Now my Kimber light commander is completely reliable with my boolits where it wasn't before, and I bought it to carry, so that was a problem needing a solution. My Para (Canadian made) did not need the throating to run but Doug cleaned up a somewhat messy throating job and it did need the crown. Both are now more accurate than I am with my boolits, the MIHC 200grHP.

[OldBearHair]

Good pictures of the barrels DougGuy. Wish I had seen this before for my SCCY CPX1 9mm. It's barrel looked like the left one with the rifling back to the ledge. I called them and talked to Jason and he sent me a barrel that looked like the one on the right. With the new barrel just cast, coat, load and shoot. Now I know that you could have fixed the old barrel for me. Well, next time.

[joe3of3]

mto7464,
I want one turret per caliber, not one for cast and one for plated, also want one caliber that works well in all my pistols of that caliber.

[joe3of3]

Are you turning the flaring of the case mouth back in enough? I generally crimp the case mouth to .468".
Or at least back to the diameter of the case with the bullet seated.

My usual crimp is the least that will hold the boolit in place, if boolit dents I loosen it. At the moment there is zero crimp, the the Lee crimp die become just snug enough to remove the flare. All ranges of crimping did not allow the boolit to drop fully into the barrel.

[joe3of3]

You may need to throat your barrel so you can seat your bullet out farther

Not an option, with 10 barrels in .45 a.c.p. Plus I may want to alternate with plated and factory ammo.

[Texas by God]

A taper crimp and /or seating a tad deeper will make it go.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[MSD MIke]

You can crimp it until your eyes cross and it won't resolve the issue. It's what Doug Guy says.
I use that bullet with great results in my convertible Blackhawk but have the same issue as you in my Mil Spec. You either need a different bullet profile or have the barrel throated.

Mike

[joe3of3]

Why do you consider 1.213 a fail? Lyman manuals list COAL's as short as 1.13. All I'm suggesting is that you might just have to live with what you get.

If 1.213 worked in only one of my pistols, but not in nine others, that is a fail. If I need to change flare, crimp and OAL to go from cast to plated, or to factory, that is a fail. You are correct Lyman says 1.13", others have said 1.190" to 1.275 max. Thanks for suggesting.

[Grmps]

Welcome to the CB forum joe3of3,

Don't give up hope, There is probably a simple solution. We just need to figure it out.

I have great results with my TL452-228-1R. I seat the case flush with the end of the last TL.

I use the Lee FCD just to the point where the boolit won't move when pushed against my bench

What gun are you having problems with this in?

I have 9MM's that slug @ .355 to .358. You'll find that each gun will have it's own "quirk"

Here is a good site for information. http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

The fit is a bigger concern the hardness.

Before casting/loading for a firearm, it is recommended that you slug your barrel then you will know what size your barrel will want.

the google search box near the top is an indispensable resource. It will guide you to years of information posted in this forum.

[joe3of3]

If you can look in the barrel from the chamber end and see rifling coming right down to the headspace ledge in the chamber mouth, then there is no freebore, or throat to speak of. This is typical with current production auto pistols of many makes and all calibers. Manufacturers just don't want to properly throat a barrel and so the boolit runs right into the rifling when the round is chambered. The proper thing to do is to have the barrel throated so you can use whatever COA you want to use.

Typical this Springfield Armory Range Officer barrel is stock from the factory on the left, with NO freebore, and after throating on the right. These throated barrels shoot lights out and run like a singer sewing machine.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/1f06c85f-3c7d-434b-9061-ca061af26de9_zps0aqi32iq.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/1f06c85f-3c7d-434b-9061-ca061af26de9_zps0aqi32iq.jpg.html)

100% correct, but my Range Officer is more accurate than I will ever be. My casts do not get the case rim to the barrel ledge unless forced and I do not know why.
Oh, you did a great job on .45 ACP cylinder for my New Vaquero, now it shoots as well as the .45 Colt cylinder. Again, thanks for the good work, done quickly, at a reasonable price.

[runfiverun]

so you have a diameter on the nose that stops the bullet from seating fully in the one pistol.
how about the other ones?
I would go to the shorter oal and function test some dummy's from the magazines of all your pistols.
if they feed your GTG and can start some load work up.

hey it could be worse, you could be cooking some powder on them and making the OAL even shorter.

[joe3of3]

Seat the bullet so it functions in the gun. 1.21 isnt that short. Plenty 45 ACP bullets are loaded to shorter OAL lengths. Have you ever looked in a 45 ACP case after you drop the powder in? It's not like 9mm where changing .05 can make an it difference. Either that or spend the money and get a throat job on the barrel.

True, 1.21 is not too short, if it works reliably. Last week the Range Officer ate 50 round of powder coated, no problems, pretty accurate, and little smoke. But the next 50 rounds were Berry's plated with the same recipe. 5 rounds came home for measuring after FTFd (Failure to Feed), four more FTFd's were manually inserted or put back into the magazine, andfour others did not go into battery unless forced, and pistol need repeated bore snake cleaning.

[joe3of3]

so you have a diameter on the nose that stops the bullet from seating fully in the one pistol.
how about the other ones?
I would go to the shorter oal and function test some dummy's from the magazines of all your pistols.
if they feed your GTG and can start some load work up.

hey it could be worse, you could be cooking some powder on them and making the OAL even shorter.

You have the problem nailed. I have been doing the plunk tests on Springfield Mil Spec, Range Officer, S&W 645, and the old barrel from my dad's WW2 M1911A1 (P-51 pilot in Pacific). All case bases were about 0.068 higher than the end of the barrel hood, except for the S&W 645 that got a few down to .012" over the hood. The case lip are not reaching the ledge, but the boolits' shoulders are .452 or .4525".

[44MAG#1]

Will the empty sized case go into the barrel level with the hood? If so you are doing something wrong with the bullet.

[joe3of3]

How does it run at that OAL? Do rounds chamber? If so, you don't really have a problem. If some do and some don't you may. If you have a boolit that you want to run (your mold, like my MIHC mold) and it isn't running, then contact Dougguy and get him to throat it. He did both of mine and crowned the muzzles to boot, while I watched. Well worth the money. Now my Kimber light commander is completely reliable with my boolits where it wasn't before, and I bought it to carry, so that was a problem needing a solution. My Para (Canadian made) did not need the throating to run but Doug cleaned up a somewhat messy throating job and it did need the crown. Both are now more accurate than I am with my boolits, the MIHC 200grHP.

Yes, Wayne, they worked well in my Range Officer for 50 rounds of powder coated. But the same die settings for depth, powder, crimp, were used to make 50 plated (Berry's) that were a disaster. Multiple FTFd's, failures in going into battery, very inaccurate, and dirty enough to bore snake after every four or five shots. I have not fired them from any other .45's, except a revolver; but I think most of my .45 semi-auto pistols will have problems.
If I make them longer, the case rim does not reach the chamber ledge.
I can't justify sending 8 or 9 barrels to DoughGuy...even when he does great work at a reasonable price, like he did on my .45 a.c.p. cylinder for a New Vaquero that shot much better in .45 Colt than in a.c.p. Now both are sweet!
Also, I thought I would have the Lee turret press set up for a.c.p. and be able to load plated and cast. If I have to reset the dies on the press, or buy another turret plate and more dies for cast, it probably is not worth going from plated to cast. Plated is fine for most of my .45's, but for old style cowboy revolvers the cast seems appropriate. And, maybe I'm too picky, but I really want my Springfield Mil Spec to fire cast, not plated, as it is my way to remember, and "tip my hat" to the veterans that we owe so much to.

[Bzcraig]

So am I understanding you want your dies to load the same boolit/bullets (cast, plated, jacketed), in all your 45's without having to adjust your dies?

[joe3of3]

You can crimp it until your eyes cross and it won't resolve the issue. It's what Doug Guy says.
I use that bullet with great results in my convertible Blackhawk but have the same issue as you in my Mil Spec. You either need a different bullet profile or have the barrel throated.

Mike

Thanks, Mike
The 2.213" was the longest length that seated properly...in cast boolits. I was hopeful someone would have an easy fix, but that is not going to happen. DougGuy is great, I know first hand. Others are very knowledgeable it appears. So, I guess I will try cast in the two or three barrels I want to use cast in, and if they work well I will probably continue casting, which I do enjoy. But I really dislike the idea of changing die settings, or buying a fifth set of dies and the turret base plate, to set up just for cast boolits. Would have been great to adjust one set of dies that fit both. Oh, well...if I can keep hitting the range weekly, all is well!

[joe3of3]

So am I understanding you want your dies to load the same boolit/bullets (cast, plated, jacketed), in all your 45's without having to adjust your dies?

At least plated and cast would be fine. Jacketed reloads are rare for me. But, I got consumed by not being able to figure out why cast required such a short O.A.L., and would also require a charge adjustment to reduce the dirtiness. Since I still can't find the answers, I will see if one setting of each die for cast boolits will work reliably in two or three select guns (M1911A1 replica, New Vaquero) at least. I wanted to buy clear powder coat from Smoke4320 to preserve the lead look in powder coat, rather than brass, for "traditional" handguns. Thanks.

[Echo]

If you can look in the barrel from the chamber end and see rifling coming right down to the headspace ledge in the chamber mouth, then there is no freebore, or throat to speak of. This is typical with current production auto pistols of many makes and all calibers. Manufacturers just don't want to properly throat a barrel and so the boolit runs right into the rifling when the round is chambered. The proper thing to do is to have the barrel throated so you can use whatever COA you want to use.

Typical this Springfield Armory Range Officer barrel is stock from the factory on the left, with NO freebore, and after throating on the right. These throated barrels shoot lights out and run like a singer sewing machine.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/1f06c85f-3c7d-434b-9061-ca061af26de9_zps0aqi32iq.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/1f06c85f-3c7d-434b-9061-ca061af26de9_zps0aqi32iq.jpg.html)

Plus One...

[Char-Gar]

mto7464,
I want one turret per caliber, not one for cast and one for plated, also want one caliber that works well in all my pistols of that caliber.


Go back and read again and look at the pics posted by DougGuy. Therein is the solution to your issues.

[Bzcraig]

At least plated and cast would be fine. Jacketed reloads are rare for me. But, I got consumed by not being able to figure out why cast required such a short O.A.L., and would also require a charge adjustment to reduce the dirtiness. Since I still can't find the answers, I will see if one setting of each die for cast boolits will work reliably in two or three select guns (M1911A1 replica, New Vaquero) at least. I wanted to buy clear powder coat from Smoke4320 to preserve the lead look in powder coat, rather than brass, for "traditional" handguns. Thanks.

I would then suggest you find out what mold produces the plated bullet and duplicate it. I would be first in line to tell you to have Doug throat it but since you already poo-pooed that, and want to set your dies once and not buy anymore dies, then that is all I can suggest. Not trying to be critical but you've severally limited your ability to enjoy the fun of boolit casting with so many limitations.

[JimB..]

Just to cross off a silly problem, have you tested the loaded rounds in a case gauge? Doing so will confirm if the problem is with the leade or with the brass. Don’t have a case gauge, make a dummy round, no primer or powder, then pull the bullet and try to plunk just the brass.

I know that it’s probably not the brass, but to have the same problem in almost every gun seems improbable unless you’re doing something like seating a WC long.

One more test, neck size a case, that is run it less than 1/4” into the sizing die. Confirm that the brass will fit in the chamber. Add a bullet, leave it long, and give it as little crimp as possible just barely straightening it out. Chambering the round will push the bullet back. Now carefully extract it and measure the OAL. You could do the same with a factory bullet in a dummy case to see how much the bullet profile affects your max oal.

If none of this points you in a different direction then I suggest that a new mold with a somewhat more elongated bullet profile is your best option.

BTW, I generally load different weights and profiles based on objective. The most accurate load at 75’ doesn’t always cycle the gun as I’d like, or a generally great load may suck with a suppressor. I do have a few loads that run in pretty much all guns of each caliber, but that isn’t the optimal load for anything except minimizing inventory...it’s my plinking round.

[joe3of3]

Welcome to the CB forum joe3of3,

Don't give up hope, There is probably a simple solution. We just need to figure it out.

I have great results with my TL452-228-1R. I seat the case flush with the end of the last TL.

I use the Lee FCD just to the point where the boolit won't move when pushed against my bench

What gun are you having problems with this in?

I have 9MM's that slug @ .355 to .358. You'll find that each gun will have it's own "quirk"

Here is a good site for information. http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

The fit is a bigger concern the hardness.

Before casting/loading for a firearm, it is recommended that you slug your barrel then you will know what size your barrel will want.

the google search box near the top is an indispensable resource. It will guide you to years of information posted in this forum.

Thanks for the welcome, and your input.
I have a strong preference for .45 acp, but reload plated in .45 Colt, .38 Special and 9 mm. I plunk tested my cast in a WW2 Colt M191A barrel, the Storm Lake barrel that replaced the WW2 Colt barrel, a S&W 645, a Springfield Mil Spec, and a Springfield Range Officer. They all failed plunk testing my cast boolits. Only the Range Officer has been used to shoot the cast boolits, and reducing the O.A.L. to 1.213" was flawless; the same recipe with a plated was a disaster.
Thanks for the link to LASC, it was already in my bookmarks but I spend more time at this site and have not spent much time at the other site.
I tried casting six years ago, but with the smoke (over lubed), no mentors, and shooting at an indoor range, I set it aside until a few weeks ago.
I have slugged the barrel of two .45 acp's, but not the other eight (or 10, if you count a revolver and a carbine). But I can't buy molds for each. The Range Officer fired 7 unlubed rounds I made six years ago; no leading, no smoke, no misses!
Once the .45 casts are usable, I will work on .45 Colt, then .38's, and 9 mm is next in the line.
I had used the Google Search on this site, inputting variations of "plunk test failure"; found a lot of information, but not exactly what I needed, though I learned much in about two hours. That is when I joined and asked for help.
Again, thanks for the reply.

[Wayne Smith]

Wow - eight or nine barrels! At that point I'd seriously consider a trip back to Doug's and ask him to teach me how to do it and what equipment I need!

[joe3of3]

I would then suggest you find out what mold produces the plated bullet and duplicate it. I would be first in line to tell you to have Doug throat it but since you already poo-pooed that, and want to set your dies once and not buy anymore dies, then that is all I can suggest. Not trying to be critical but you've severally limited your ability to enjoy the fun of boolit casting with so many limitations.

Thanks for the input, which was not taken as being critical. In my second attempt at casting I am still handicapped by not having a mentor. In my ignorance on casting I expected a cast round to fit all barrels in that caliber, as plated boolits do. I do enjoy casting. But being on a limited budget, I must justify spending several hundred dollars to convert the four calibers I reload from plated to cast. Doug is great; he did a wonderful job on my New Vaquero. But at least four of my .45's, and maybe five more, would have to be throated.
I joined castboolits to ask you experienced casters, if I am making a dumb mistake, or if there were an easy fix that would allow me to easily load either cast or plated rounds. No dumb mistake on my part (yet), so now I have to decide deep to get into casting. My desire to cast is there, but ...
Being an intermittent visitor to the site for about seven years, I knew the I'd get good valuable information. I just did not expect so many responses in so short a time. To one, and all, thank you. And to quote Arnold: "I'll be back."

[joe3of3]

Just to cross off a silly problem, have you tested the loaded rounds in a case gauge? Doing so will confirm if the problem is with the leade or with the brass. Don’t have a case gauge, make a dummy round, no primer or powder, then pull the bullet and try to plunk just the brass.

I know that it’s probably not the brass, but to have the same problem in almost every gun seems improbable unless you’re doing something like seating a WC long.

One more test, neck size a case, that is run it less than 1/4” into the sizing die. Confirm that the brass will fit in the chamber. Add a bullet, leave it long, and give it as little crimp as possible just barely straightening it out. Chambering the round will push the bullet back. Now carefully extract it and measure the OAL. You could do the same with a factory bullet in a dummy case to see how much the bullet profile affects your max oal.

If none of this points you in a different direction then I suggest that a new mold with a somewhat more elongated bullet profile is your best option.

BTW, I generally load different weights and profiles based on objective. The most accurate load at 75’ doesn’t always cycle the gun as I’d like, or a generally great load may suck with a suppressor. I do have a few loads that run in pretty much all guns of each caliber, but that isn’t the optimal load for anything except minimizing inventory...it’s my plinking round.

Thanks, Jim
The silly problem was not silly. The emptied case failed plunk by the same distance of 0.068". I reset the crimp die and got the distance down to 0.45" from having the boolit base flush with the hood. But, the case is now visibly narrowed at the mouth area and the boolit position in the case is evident. The neck area is 0.460", while the center of the case (Remington - Peters) is .0467". The piston lever resistance on the Lee turret press is pretty high.
Is that case distortion normal for cast boolits?
Won't that increase the pressure?
Does it greatly reduce the number of times the brass can be reloaded?

I have followed Sierra Bullets FAQ advice of no crimp if the boolit does not move on impact.
I will be getting the Lyman gauge that has been in my watch list for two days.

Thanks for help!

[44MAG#1]

Will a full length sized case go into the chamber so the case head is flush with the hood. That is a simple question. If not than there is something wrong with the sizing of the cases. If a new case will go into the chamber far enough for the head to be level with the hood than that is a sizing problem if the sized doesn't.
Is the turret head cocking enough to cause misalignment in sizing and seat in and crimping of the cartridge?
Most 45 Auto chambers have enough slop that even fat Bullets will chamber if the bullet is seated deep enough.
My XDs had no throats and I had no problem. More than likely you need to be looking elsewhere for the problem. Such as in the sizing process of the cases.

[joe3of3]

Wow - eight or nine barrels! At that point I'd seriously consider a trip back to Doug's and ask him to teach me how to do it and what equipment I need!

I am sitting her grinning; I bought a 29/64" machine reamer bit thinking I would try reaming the New Vaquero cylinder. I was just starting armature pistol smithing and got scared off, as I did not yet have a drill press. Doug to the rescue, on that one.
One of the many times I have gone overboard in my hobby...guess it is passed hobby and now an avocation.

Having fitted a Storm Lake barrel in my Dad's M1911A1 from WW2, I have a spare barrel, and did get the drill press, but still I can't justify altering barrels that are more accurate than I will ever be.

[mto7464]

mto7464,
I want one turret per caliber, not one for cast and one for plated, also want one caliber that works well in all my pistols of that caliber.

I think that may not be possible. With me I have to change my flare and COL based on what bullet I am loading. (More flare with cast, less with j's) I would not call it a fail. Even with J-bullets in my rifles I have to change the seating die with each different bullet style. That is why I load in batches. I will load all my cast, then if laoding J's I will load a bunch of them so I am not going back and forth. If you don't want to change, load one bullet design only, no reason it can't be a cast, it's all I shot in my glocks. Reason I asked what the problem was it that it is not really a problem to me just takes a few more minutes to change set up.

[Char-Gar]

I fail to comprehend why so many folks find reloading the 45 ACP round for a 1911 pistol so difficult. A cast bullet designed for the round, loaded in a full length sized case, properly taper crimped and using a suitable power and charge will feed and fire without difficulty if the barrel is set up for cast bullets.

The idea of throating a barrel is nothing new. Older factory barrel had a freebore. After market barrels by Barsto and some others come with such a free bore. In days gone by, Colt made their barrel cast bullet friendly. Barsto and other makers of match barrel also make their barrels cast bullet friendly. However, most factory pistol come set up for jacketed factory ammo and cast bullet handloaders are swimming upstream.

Again, the solution is putting a proper feeding throat and freebore into the barrel. This should be done at the factory, but those days are gone.

A properly loaded cast bullet as I made reference to above, will shoot reliably in any 1911 with the barrel set up for cast bullets. Let DougGuy work on you barrel and it will shoot any decent cast bullet handload that will run through your magazine.

I am 75 years old and have been shooting and handloading the 1911 pistol since the late 50's. I have fired something over 1/4 million rounds of cast bullet handloads through a variety of 1911 pistols.

If you don't want to put a freebore in your barrel, just keep shoving the bullets deeper into the case. Sooner or later that will feed, but you might have created over issues with such deep seating.

Anyway, I am done with this stuff...you can lead a horse to water, etc. etc. etc.

[DougGuy]

100% correct, but my Range Officer is more accurate than I will ever be. My casts do not get the case rim to the barrel ledge unless forced and I do not know why.
Oh, you did a great job on .45 ACP cylinder for my New Vaquero, now it shoots as well as the .45 Colt cylinder. Again, thanks for the good work, done quickly, at a reasonable price.

You are welcome to send the problem barrel with some dummies that won't plunk and I will get the pin gages and micrometer to them and see why. It's likely hitting the rifling. If the chamber is cut too tightly I have 2 finishing reamers that will remedy that as well but send it and get some accurate measurements on the barrel and the dummies and we can go from there.

I also have an autopistol chamber depth mic that I made which works a charm. Many of the aftermarket barrels, Storm Lake, Lone Wolf, especially Kart, Ed Brown, KKM, Clark, cut the chambers short at .895" so that headspace can be set with a finishing reamer once the barrel is fitted to the slide. I do them .902" to .906" and they work great. Most of the short chambered barrels will function and fire, most will even plunk for the most part but you have no wiggle room and different case lengths really skew the works. Unless you know to check for this, it can sneak by undetected since most calipers won't measure it good enough to be absolutely sure of chamber depth.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/20170910_215253-640_zpsdsb5de1j.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/20170910_215253-640_zpsdsb5de1j.jpg.html)

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/20170910_215417-crop-640_zpsvwyh3tfx.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/20170910_215417-crop-640_zpsvwyh3tfx.jpg.html)

[P Flados]

I bought one Lee 45 cal mold long before I was loading 45 ACP and now I find that I "got lucky".

At the time I did not even know about the great "no throat" tragedy that most of the auto pistol makers seem to have created.

The TL452-230-2R steps down to a smaller diameter just in front of the tumble lube bands.

I do not even own a 45 cal boolit sizer. I just cast it, tumble it it BLL and seat it with just a smidge of the front tumble lube band visible. With BLL, this boolit runs lead free from plinkers to stout loads.

This RN boolit is probably about as reliable for an "any 45 ACP" boolit you can find.

[OS OK]

You've had about all the advise there is...the only other move I can think of would be something like this...


208602

I've been loading these at 1.220" before I got a new throated barrel...if you want to try some PM me and I'll send them, foot the bill for shipping too.

c h a r l i e

[JimB..]

Thanks, Jim
The silly problem was not silly. The emptied case failed plunk by the same distance of 0.068". I reset the crimp die and got the distance down to 0.45" from having the boolit base flush with the hood. But, the case is now visibly narrowed at the mouth area and the boolit position in the case is evident. The neck area is 0.460", while the center of the case (Remington - Peters) is .0467". The piston lever resistance on the Lee turret press is pretty high.
Is that case distortion normal for cast boolits?
Won't that increase the pressure?
Does it greatly reduce the number of times the brass can be reloaded?

I have followed Sierra Bullets FAQ advice of no crimp if the boolit does not move on impact.
I will be getting the Lyman gauge that has been in my watch list for two days.

Thanks for help!

Good, so you may have bullet and barrel issues, but you won’t know until you resolve your brass issue. The problem likely originates in sizing, adjustment of the crimp die won’t help it.

@44MAG#1 question is spot on, will a full sized case drop into the chamber? Actually prepare 25 cases as you would normally through resizing, but not expanding, and try them all in a single gun. How many fail to drop in? Make sure that your sizing die is properly set to touch the shell plate.

I am a bit confused though, if the resized brass is the problem then it wouldn’t plunk with jacketed bullets either. Have you been using a Lee factory crimp die with your jacketed loads, but not with your cast loads? I dislike the FCD.

You may also want to pull the bullets from 10 factory rounds that you know plunk so you have 10 primed cases that you know are good. Remove your decapping pin and load the rounds with a cast bullet just as you have been. Try plunking those.

[joe3of3]

You've had about all the advise there is...the only other move I can think of would be something like this...


208602

I've been loading these at 1.220" before I got a new throated barrel...if you want to try some PM me and I'll send them, foot the bill for shipping too.

c h a r l i e

A generous offer, but I can not accept it.
I have gotten a lot of good advise, from good people and I do appreciate that.
Time for me to stop, test, consider, then decide.

JimB.. had me redo my crimp, which narrowed the gap between the boolit stopping point and the hood. With only 24 cast boolits on hand I will have to cast a few more before testing them at the indoor range tomorrow.
The second option is to buy a different mold. The third is to send the barrels to DougGuy to have them freebored.

Not the simple change I expected when adding cast boolits to plated boolits for reloading.

Thanks.

[Dusty Bannister]

Quote: The third is to send the barrels to DougGuy to have them freebored.

I do not think that is the correct term for what you are needing. I think you want to use the term "throated".

[joe3of3]

Good, so you may have bullet and barrel issues, but you won’t know until you resolve your brass issue. The problem likely originates in sizing, adjustment of the crimp die won’t help it.

@44MAG#1 question is spot on, will a full sized case drop into the chamber? Actually prepare 25 cases as you would normally through resizing, but not expanding, and try them all in a single gun. How many fail to drop in? Make sure that your sizing die is properly set to touch the shell plate.

I am a bit confused though, if the resized brass is the problem then it wouldn’t plunk with jacketed bullets either. Have you been using a Lee factory crimp die with your jacketed loads, but not with your cast loads? I dislike the FCD.

You may also want to pull the bullets from 10 factory rounds that you know plunk so you have 10 primed cases that you know are good. Remove your decapping pin and load the rounds with a cast bullet just as you have been. Try plunking those.

Yes, all of the sized empty case plunked and were flush with the hood. The sizing die touches the shell holder. The turret plate has always had a slight vertical movement when the ram is raised, but 1K Missouri Bullets (lubed RNL) were no problem up to two weeks ago when I loaded the last one.
I use the Lee Turret press with carbide dies. The Lee factory crimp die is the only kind I have for .45 caliber. Two years ago Berry's stated that the crimp should not be deep enough to mark the plated bullet. I lightened the crimp at that time. That light crimp was used since then on plated and factory made cast bullets. At this moment the crimp die is set to (in my uneducated opinion) extreme crimp.
Your earlier post showed me that empty, unflared brass failed the plunk test. The visible narrowing of the case does allow the boolit to nearly plunk...a moderate knuckle bump seats it fully, so a fast moving slide should have no problem. The lead just above the case rim has a short mark where the shiny area from sizing was disturbed.
I appreciate the help.

In six years of reloading, 15,200 large pistol primers have been used, with about 800 used in .45 Colt, with no problems.

[joe3of3]

Quote: The third is to send the barrels to DougGuy to have them freebored.

I do not think that is the correct term for what you are needing. I think you want to use the term "throated".

DougGuy used both terms, and I may be wrong, but I think freebore is the slight distance between the bullet and where the lands and groove begin; throating is the widening or shaping of a ramp or entry area. Tapering the lands throats the barrel, creating a freebore where there was none...I think.

I have fitted hammers, grip safeties, a barrel, etc., but will not alter seers or this kind of work. That is for DougGuy and other experts.
Thanks for posting.

[Grmps]

Try going softer on the lead, 45 ACP is a slower caliber & doesn't need to be over 10 bhn. 50/50 COWW / SOWW (lip on wheel weight/ stick on wheel weights (pure) + 2% tin apr 9.2 BHN
The harder the alloy the larger the boolit will be from the same mold.
Use the LFC die, crimp and pull boolits and measure until it starts to shrink them then back off to where it didn't that should give you the smallest cartridge without compromising the diamiter of the boolit..
That LASC link/chart I posted shows the different alloys and their shrinkage/expansion.

[joe3of3]

Will a full length sized case go into the chamber so the case head is flush with the hood. That is a simple question. If not than there is something wrong with the sizing of the cases. If a new case will go into the chamber far enough for the head to be level with the hood than that is a sizing problem if the sized doesn't.
Is the turret head cocking enough to cause misalignment in sizing and seat in and crimping of the cartridge?
Most 45 Auto chambers have enough slop that even fat Bullets will chamber if the bullet is seated deep enough.
My XDs had no throats and I had no problem. More than likely you need to be looking elsewhere for the problem. Such as in the sizing process of the cases.

Yes, 44MAG#1, sized cases all dropped into two barrels with a resounding "plunk" sound. The turret plate always (since 8/2010) had a slight vertical lift when the ram was raised. But seats everything, from plated .45 a.c.p. to Missouri bullets (lubed, RNL) in both .45 a.c.p. cases and .45 Colt cases with no problem, even with minimal flare. My cast boolits needed a rather large flare to stay upright without being held (major finger ouch!).
JimB.. had me check, and reset the crimping die. That lowered the boolit so the bottom of the rim lip was level with the top of the hood, but did not plunk. A moderate knuckle tap seated the boolit.
What concerns me is the amount of crimp (0.460") which leaves the shape of the boolit clearly visible on the case; the center of case is 0.470".
I will make a few more and try them. If that fails, I can send the barrels to DougGuy, buy a different mold, or stick with only plated. I do enjoy casting, but have to consider many factors (my age, limited budget (semi-retired, not of my choice), smoke restrictions (indoor range).
The various lubes I have tried made too much smoke, so I made a batch of powder coated (Harbor Freight red) that were acceptable. And I want to try the clear coat from Smoke4320, which would not look like a mini-lipstick and probably smoke less.
That is why I need to test boolits now, before I commit to shipping barrels, buying molds, and buying lead (down to a one pound ingot and 4 pounds of extra dive weights).
Your input is really appreciated.

[44MAG#1]

Have you actually measured your cast bullet after sizing them? Not just relying on the measurement on the size die.
A true .452" diameter bullet shouldn't need anymore flaring of the case than a .452" jacketed.
I use the same flare on Jacketed Hornady's, Berrys plated and cast.
I loads rounds that will work in my most minimum spec barrel so they will work in the others. Not the other way around. I crimp a minimum of at least the same diameter of the case where the bullet body is after bullet is seated generally somewhat more.

[gwpercle]

The truth is that 1R 45 design is not really correct for the 45 acp profile. Look carefully at a GI hardball load and you will see the bullet is tapered....the 1R 45 has no taper and the sides of the untapered boolit runs into the rifiling. You have to deep seat depending on how much throat is in your barrel. Just no other way around it unless you get the barrel throated . Or dump the that design.....that's what I did.
That Lee 1R 45 mould is the only mould I have ever sold...that 1R profile just sucks. I sold it for $1.00 at a yard sale and felt bad about taking the guys money. A Lyman 200 grain SWC solved all my problems. I would have gone with a Lee truncated cone but back then they didn't exist

[Bzcraig]

Joe - now that you clarified budget constraints and the desire to cast but trying to decide whether to jump in with both feet, this would be my suggestion. After making sure you have no die adjustment issues or brass issues, as suggested, either get a hold of a .451 sizer to size those boolits down a bit more then powder coat them which will eliminate any leading, send some of your boolits to someone to size and PC (I will if I have a .451 sizer) or see if someone else uses that mold who can size, PC and send you some to try, easy and cheap way to help make your decisions. Sorry, just checked, no .451 sizer.

[Grmps]

You could try a smaller boolit

https://i.imgur.com/tG29AJs.jpg

I had a 451 but I enlarged it for other purposes since I didn't need that size

I could send you some:
.452-185-SWC 45-185 BB 2 RCBS
.452-230-TC 452-230-TC 6 LEE-6
.452-230-2R -TL 452-230-2R-TL 6 LEE-6

PC'd and Sized @ .452 to try. If you want PM me your address

SWC and TC may have feeding issues in some semi-autos

[vzerone]

You could try a smaller boolit

https://i.imgur.com/tG29AJs.jpg

I had a 451 but I enlarged it for other purposes since I didn't need that size

I could send you some:
.452-185-SWC 45-185 BB 2 RCBS
.452-230-TC 452-230-TC 6 LEE-6
.452-230-2R -TL 452-230-2R-TL 6 LEE-6

PC'd and Sized @ .452 to try. If you want PM me your address

SWC and TC may have feeding issues in some semi-autos

That Lyman bullet is a darn good one!!!! Very accurate out of all my pistols.

[DougGuy]

AFAIK, everything from the end of the chamber to the top of the lands where they reach their full parallel height, is the throat. Freebore is exactly what the term says it is, it is a section of sometimes parallel bore that is free of rifling, and sometimes the freebore is tapered as in the case of the SAAMI spec'd 9mm throat. It does not call for any parallel freebore, it's all on a one or one and a half degree taper. Freebore is part of the throat.

Leade-in is the section of the throat where the lands begin and taper upward in height to their full profile, being just in front of the freebore, leade-in is also part of the throat.

[wimms]

Black magic marker used around the boolit, from ¼” above, to ¼” below the case mouth becomes smeared, or removed, from one or two very small areas of the lead just above the case mouth when pliers used to turn the boolits where they stopped, about 0.068” from case rim to the barrel hood. Marks were near, but not at, seam lines from the mold; they still appear even when the very small seams were filed away.

Correct OAL depends on the bullet nose shape for barrels with short freebore.
208645

Can you notice how same OAL is wrong for those different nose shapes?
208646

The result is something like this:
208647

To solve your problem, you need a different mold with different nose shape.
Resizing bullet down will not help.

[turtlezx]

you using the wrong boolit its 1 r for revolvers need 2r or seat really deep to make them work

[Kosh75287]

If this has already been mentioned, then please overlook this post. I didn't see it, though. Has the OP tried crimping his reloads in a step separate from the seating step? He might also try using a dedicated taper crimp die, to apply the crimp in a separate step. I know that this doesn't address the underlying problem, but it might keep you shooting, while you look for it. Just a thought.

[Char-Gar]

Quote: The third is to send the barrels to DougGuy to have them freebored.

I do not think that is the correct term for what you are needing. I think you want to use the term "throated".

Freebore/leade/throat are all terms used to describe the portion of the barrel in from of the chamber where there is no rifling.

The use of the term "throat or throating" is problematic in a 1911 45 ACP barrel, as throating also means the modification of the rear end of the chamber to allow rounds to be chambered without interference from the rear end of the chamber. Because of that, I use the term freebore for the front of the chamber and throating for the rear of the chamber.

[OS OK]

Freebore/leade/throat are all terms used to describe the portion of the barrel in from of the chamber where there is no rifling.

The use of the term "throat or throating" is problematic in a 1911 45 ACP barrel, as throating also means the modification of the rear end of the chamber to allow rounds to be chambered without interference from the rear end of the chamber. Because of that, I use the term freebore for the front of the chamber and throating for the rear of the chamber.

Prolly oughta consult a 'Proctologist' on 'modifying the rear end of a chamber'...he oughta have a technical term for it! . . . :bigsmyl2:

[vzerone]

Prolly oughta consult a 'Proctologist' on 'modifying the rear end of a chamber'...he oughta have a technical term for it! . . . :bigsmyl2:

Actually modifying the barrel feed ramp is called barrel ramping and chamber entry throating.[smilie=s:

[FlyfishermanMike]

At what OAL will they pass? I have a 45 ACP mold that I seat at 1.130" It's the design of the bullet.

If one OAL won't work for all your guns them make up a dummy round for each load. Use that you adjust your seating die, takes all of 10 seconds.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[FlyfishermanMike]

you using the wrong boolit its 1 r for revolvers need 2r or seat really deep to make them workI seat the 2R at 1.200" and runs great in all my guns.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Char-Gar]

Here two pics of the same bullet (Lyman 452423..sized .452) loaded over the same powder charge (4.6/BE). The round on the left is the max length it can be seated in an unthroated (barrel with no freebore) and the one on the right is seated out for use in the same barrel after throating by Doug Guy.

The shorter round is somewhat "iffy" about feeding, while the longer rounds feeds through the pistol as slick as snot on a glass door knob. Hundreds of rounds a session without a bobble. The cases are FL sized, mouth expanded, bullet seated and taper crimped.

This is just a little visual about just how much throating helps cure feeding and other issues in the 1911 pistol. A pic of the pistol is included for free.

The so called "plunk test" is not very useful in a barrel so throated, as overall length ceases to be a problem until the round is to long for the magazine. The bullet in the pic could be seated out a smidge more and still chamber and pass the "plunk test", but the round would be too long for the magazine. This is a pretty extreme seating situation, but it works and works well for me. The handgun still feeds and fires all kinds of other cast bullets and factory ammo as slick as you please.

[joe3of3]

PROBLEM RESOLVED…I THINK.

The Lee TL452-228-1R mold I have makes boolits too wide at the shoulder, for several of my pistols. A narrower taper is required. In a failed plunk test I used pliers to turn the bullet, which left marks in the sized area of the boolit shoulder just above the case mouth.

Additionally, I had repeatedly moved three of the die settings, which I’m sure contributed to my problems.

The remedy, for me is to buy the Lee TL452-228-2R mold, use the Lee TL452-228-1R mold for .45 Colt, and then look at 9mm and .38 Special molds.

DougGuy would have cured my problem, I know how great he is with guns, and with clients. But I believe the proper mold is the next step for me.

Many of the suggestions offered here were great. Because of you guys (and ladies, if any…to be politically correct…though it galls me) I will be casting. I have ordered 36 pounds of Lyman #2, and am creating my shopping list for molds, sizers, etc.

So, I will thank you all, I really do appreciate all of the input. The number of replies surprised me and proved what great members are in this forum.