Really short Flintlock Rifles

[junkbug]

Does anyone here have any experience with shortened flintlock rifles? I believe there is no legal restriction from creating these out of longer rifles, but I wonder what you will loose in both power and accuracy from doing this.

Also, I wonder if any states have minimum barrel lengths for hunting with these arms during the primitive muzzle-loading season.

Right know I am just in the concept phase of considering this. Also keeping an eye out for cheap pawnshop mussleloaders to try this on.

This Jaeger looks like fun. Don't know how practical or legal for hunting it is though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYn2KK0jSaM

Thanks for any insight.

[rancher1913]

I got one its called a pistol [smilie=l:

All kidding aside that's a cool concept, the way they rain proof the frizen is cool

[kens]

That thing certainly looks like fun.
Can you say 'shoulder fired pistol' ?

The 1861 Enfield musketoon was 24" barrel in its day

[junkbug]

The Austrian 1842 calvary carbine in .71 cal has also interested me, but using a vintage gun with moderate or full loads just doesn't sound like a good idea.

http://www.mcpheetersantiquemilitaria.com/02_firearms/02_item_045.htm

[Geezer in NH]

depends where you live in free America no problem, in controlled Amerika problem

[waksupi]

I'd stick to a longer barrel, both for longer sighting plane, and more velocity. They are a short range proposition. A Jeager with a barrel not under 22" would serve you better.

[mazo kid]

BATFE considers these "non-guns" so OK there. States may have different restrictions though, check with your DNR. I don't know your reason for a drastically shortened rifle, but would agree with Waksupi.

[oldracer]

We have a couple of fairly old shooters who take part in our monthly muzzle loader matches and both have shoulder issues so they had a gunsmith shorten T/C Hawken's to about 2/3 original barrel length. Unless you knew what an original was like, you'd never know as the work was fine. If you are going to do this I'd suggest talking with a local well known gunsmith who is honest and all. They will not generally do anything illegal. Also check your state's firearm laws but as I have found in most cases muzzle loaders do not apply to the laws of center fire rifles.

[Good Cheer]

Musketoon versus a P-53 is a great comparison.

Or how about Ren
208457

versus Stimpy!
208458

[junkbug]

Thanks guys, and especially waksupi. I plan on saving my pennies for a Track of the Wolf Jaeger kit, one of which has a 31" barrel. I would have a hard time justifying cutting it, at least at first.

I am not sure I am advanced enough for one of those kits. How difficult are they?

[junkbug]

I like Ren. Have 2 CVA muzzle loaders, bought both inexpensively. That may happen to one of them.

[Outpost75]

The Austrian 1842 calvary carbine in .71 cal has also interested me, but using a vintage gun with moderate or full loads just doesn't sound like a good idea.

http://www.mcpheetersantiquemilitaria.com/02_firearms/02_item_045.htm

A neighbor has an original one of those in flintlock configuration. He uses a patched round ball and 70 grs. of Goex 3Fg to shoot deer. He has taken several which were one-shot kills and as many others which required some trailing and finishing off and a coup de gras with his backup repop .69 cal flinter 1763 Charleville pistol, http://www.veteranarms.com/ReproductionMuzzleloadersandFlintlocks/1763-Charleville-Pistol.html in which he shoots 40 grains. He limits shots to about 40 yards and says it's as effective as a 12-ga. slug. Pistol is effective rabbit gun to 50 feet with 3/4 oz. of No.6 shot and 40 grains of powder.

[bigted]

I have also contemplated doing just that thing with a muzzleloader rifle. I have an old TC barrel and odd stuff that i have planned for just such a project.

I do not know what would be different between revolver hunting and using such a shortened rifle. Besides it would be a hoot to play with and develope dif loads for.

The ultimate blanket gun in my opinion!

[KCSO]

Closest I ever got was a copy of an Allen Buggy rifle with a detachable stock. Barrel was 16" long and in 44 calibre we were shooting 40 grains of FFFg. Good for 25 yard target but not a hunting gun.

[Eddie2002]

Here's a .50 caliber Monarch cap lock I picked up at a pawn shop for $50.00 and turned into a trade gun. The PO had cut the curved portion of the stock off along with part of the patch box, lost the wedge plates and used dry wall screws to hold the trigger guard on. I ended up turning it into a trade gun with steel hardware just because it was so ugly. It has a 18 inch barrel which appears to be stock and is a hoot to shoot out to about 50 yds. 208558 Guess if you could find a beat up Hawkins it would be possible to cut it down along the lines of this one.

[kens]

All those look like a good deer gun for muzzleloading season when up in a tree stand. Around me, deer shots are inside 50yards.

[waksupi]

Thanks guys, and especially waksupi. I plan on saving my pennies for a Track of the Wolf Jaeger kit, one of which has a 31" barrel. I would have a hard time justifying cutting it, at least at first.

I am not sure I am advanced enough for one of those kits. How difficult are they?

I haven't looked at their parts, but this should come with a swamped barrel. For Pete's sake, don't cut it shorter. They handle like a dream.
A Jaeger rifle is one I would say takes a somewhat advance builder, to do a good job.

[rodwha]

This is something I, too, have contemplated, though not nearly as short for a couple of reasons. 1) With this being an abstract issue (short barreled rifles) some officers may not know the laws. One could find themselves detained or even their weapon confiscated, and if it were fired it would likely be given back in a mess. 2) The effective range and accuracy by a moderate length barrel (16-20").

My 24" Lyman Deerstalker is rather handy, but I figure a .54 cal/28 ga of legal smokeless length would be that much more handy in thick stuff if tracking is necessary offering better accuracy and more power than a handgun, especially if it is a wounded hog one is searching for.

An Uberti Remington Carbine with 30 grns of 3F and a ball produces an average of 1233 fps giving 473 ft/lbs of energy. That's not bad at all, though it's that much better with his 200 grn bullet giving well over 600 ft/lbs.

http://1858remington.com/discuss/index.php/topic,10439.0.html

[Geezer in NH]

This is something I, too, have contemplated, though not nearly as short for a couple of reasons. 1) With this being an abstract issue (short barreled rifles) some officers may not know the laws. One could find themselves detained or even their weapon confiscated, and if it were fired it would likely be given back in a mess.

http://1858remington.com/discuss/index.php/topic,10439.0.html

Live as a slave! I prefer the officer knows what he is doing or I think my lawyer says 1/2 million or more settlement for his stupidity.

ML are not regulated except by the state like that, not the Feds. If that officer is so stupid due I care if he is fired NOT.

I was a sworn officer. Don't know the law it is let it go period per any training today and the last 40 years. Call me contraire but way it is.

[rodwha]

Live as a slave! I prefer the officer knows what he is doing or I think my lawyer says 1/2 million or more settlement for his stupidity.

ML are not regulated except by the state like that, not the Feds. If that officer is so stupid due I care if he is fired NOT.

I was a sworn officer. Don't know the law it is let it go period per any training today and the last 40 years. Call me contraire but way it is.

Regardless a very short barrel just doesn't have much oomph for hunting and is only useful at short ranges. However I've also considered the attachable stocks to percussion revolvers. I'm sure that could very well also ruin my hunt or enjoyment, even if but for a moment while things are discussed. I'd much prefer to be left alone doing what I'm doing as it would be legal than to be bothered. Mostly this would just be by a game warden I suppose unless I missed a speed reduction or stop sign somehow.

Besides who would care to go through these hassles? A) Your hunt for the day may well be ruined. Compensated? Nope. B) Your day being put on hold as the officer checks into the legality of what you have wasting your time and possibly creating other issues such as missing the am/pm hunt, missing the time to spend with family or hunting buddies, or what have you. Compensated? Nope. C) If you were jailed and your vehicle impounded that would be a nightmare who'd want? Sure you may be compensated. Who wants that? I'd much prefer to live my life as I am than go to jail, lose my gun(s) and maybe my vehicle, and possibly my job for some money. I like money but I like my freedom to be much more. And if a few inches of barrel is all it takes that seems rather easy. Besides all I truly lost was a little bit of weight loss and mobility for a bit more power, accuracy, and range all without any concern.

[Geezer in NH]

I prefer to stand rather than bend on my knee's however your choose what you do.

[wonderwolf]

About the time my dad gifted me a 1803 Harpers Ferry .54 Flintlock he picked up a .54 left hand canoe rifle....Short little guy but Oh it looks fun. Looks like it would be handy but a bit of a pain to load as its shorter and not as easy to load whilst standing.

[rodwha]

I prefer to stand rather than bend on my knee's however your choose what you do.

Oh I will. However this isn't the standing or kneeling issue you want to make it out to be. Some people prefer to avoid problems such as like I stated. A few inches isn't going to make or break the intended use, though those few inches may well save a hunt or some time and well worth that to me. There's no need to attempt to ruffle someone up with comments because of such, though I also understand the gravity of what you mean. This, to me, just isn't one of those types of freedom's I see a need to make a point of. And that's fine if you do, though it sounds more as though it's a chest puffing thing, but whatever. This is a free country, and as long as you obey the laws it's good for the most part. However the law is a bit vague from what some have pointed out in that chopping a rifle down isn't the same thing as a gun built that way. Lawyers have a way of using loopholes and vagueness to their advantage and it seems the wiser thing to avoid something trivial like a few inches. If you'd like to be the first to go to court over such to see is your choice if that's what you care for. Seems a ridiculous thing to gamble with unless you know for sure. But doesn't that also depend on the judge's interpretation if it isn't in black and white on the books? By all means pave the way so fellas considering such won't have need to ask. Now owning/using an arm designed as such the law is on your side, assuming the state doesn't say otherwise (not sure if any do or not, but mine follows the Feds). I don't know the law concerning chopping rifles down and whether or not it breaks the law. I just don't see much advantage to doing so anyway. But that's me. Everyone is entitled to their ideas and opinions. No one is trying to force you to see it their way or change your mind.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Subscribed

[rodwha]

Of interest according to the Feds on this issue:

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-guides-importation-verification-firearms-national-firearms-act-definitions-antique

Of course your state may state otherwise... This is the first time (it's dated 2016) I've seen the vagueness taken away.

[bigted]

That is very helpfull. Thanks for posting the link

[Buckshot Bill]

I have a CVA .54 that has been cut to 14" it still spits out a .530 RB @ 1400 fps and a Maxi Ball at near 1200 fps w/ 100grns. It suffers no accuracy issues either.

[Buckshot Bill]

heres the thing....

do states actually have energy or velocity requirements for muzzle loaders?

barrel requirements for muzzle loaders?

Ohio lists no such provision that I can find, only that it must me .38 or larger

Indiana does have caliber and barrel length requirements on BP handguns

"Muzzleloading handguns are allowed. The muzzleloading handgun must be single shot, .50 caliber or larger, loaded with bullets at least .44 caliber and have a barrel at least 12 inches long, measured from the base of the breech plug excluding tangs and other projections to the end of the barrel, including the muzzle crown."

[Good Cheer]

Foot and a half barrels on a volley gun might be fun.

[rodwha]

Measured my Lyman Deerstalker, which is what I'd get another barrel to have shortened and in .54 cal, and found that to keep the first barrel/thimble I couldn't go much below 17" (measured my rod down the bore which doesn't account for the patent chamber, which shows 23.5"). Could move the keeper spring and barrel and lose 2" but I don't see that being worth the expense.

[Good Cheer]

rodwha,
the Deerstalker has got everything. Short, stout, handy, powerful.
If I'd a run upon a low priced 2nd hand Deerstalker that's what the Critter Getter project would have been based upon instead of a Traditions Deerhunter.

[rodwha]

rodwha,
the Deerstalker has got everything. Short, stout, handy, powerful.
If I'd a run upon a low priced 2nd hand Deerstalker that's what the Critter Getter project would have been based upon instead of a Traditions Deerhunter.

When looking for my first muzzleloader I wanted something handy and light that would work as a stalking rifle or a fixed position (blind) rifle. My affordable other choices were the Pedersoli Country Hunter and Traditions Deerhunter. I wasn't confident in a PRB then and figured I'd likely go with a conical and reading or people complaining about recoil and figuring it wasn't too different than a .45-70 Gov't I thought the recoil pad would be worth its weight in gold along with fiber optic sights.

I don't care for the sights and I'm not so sure the recoil pad is necessary. However I like the cheap drop-in barrels I can work.

[rodwha]

Typically it seems a twist can handle a shorter projectile better than it can handle one that's longer for the twist. But then it also seems to depend on velocity such as going from a 1:48" twist rifle to 1:30" twist pistol both meant for PRB.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I don't doubt the gun that started this thread would on kill a deer quite effectively at short range. But getting one for the purpose, when it bring only... what advantage...? is another matter. There isn't much point in talking about kneeling down or standing up, when there are better guns available for the job. For velocity, sight-base, trajectory and steadiness, at least twenty inches would be a big help, and thirty better still. Portability? I find it a lot easier to carry a gun that you can rest on your shoulder without pointing at your ear or chin as you step over slippery branches, or can be dropped on its butt with much less chance of pointing at biomass.

Accuracy, apart from a curved trajectory, needn't be much of an issue. It was pretty mediocre in that film, but it looked like that ball was started with only the mildest of pressure, and was very imperfectly shaped. As for the difference from a revolver, it would be more powerful on the first shot, but a deer making a rude gesture and running before the second.

I doubt very much if that gun was mid-eighteenth century. Unless someone was very inventive, the rainproof pan makes it a late flintlock. I wouldn't bear surprised if it was some sort of composite - not just a shortened barrel, since it has a swamped barrel. I'd want to have that barrel out, and see if the matching barrel channel really matches, and has done so for a long time.

The gun certainly looks Germanic, but I think it is more likely to have been a coach-travelling carbine, giving a big advantage over a highwayman's pistols. In the UK (and perhaps Holland, with the name) it would probably have bemore much en a smoothbore blunderbuss of much larger calibre, often not truly bell-mouthed as the legend claims, but greatly enlarged at the muzzle to tame recoil with weight, and to stop fingers straying where they would come to grief. Those rings on the muzzle, in the video, may be engraved ornamentation, but they could be to hide a rifled liner.

I doubt if it was made that short for use on horseback. I have a Mortimer sporting double shotgun which I believe was made particularly long-barrelled for this purpose. Terminal pressure, and thus muzzle blast, would be high with a short barrel, and it takes a very well-trained horse to tolerate that over his head. He can easily learn to shy or demand his orders in writing when he senses game, or thinks you are about to.

[doc1876]

Amazingly fast lock time.