45-70 Donkey Kick

[Al_Bundy]

Gotta say that was the most painful load development i've experienced and had to tap out half ways through. Found out why this load dev. was painful compared to the loads i tested for funcionality last week. I seated the bullet at 2.075 compared to the original 2.100. I did this last minute because i noticed there were 2-3 that didnt want to chamber correctly. The original COAL had large recoil but wasn't painful. Today even the starting point i felt a donkey kick me. Ask the range officer who was watching me if he could try it out to see if its just me being a ***** but he said "no way, aint shooting it. i can tell from here that load is too hot".

Using lyman 49 for a 410gr pc cast bullet i started at 45gr of varget, 46, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55. Tapped out at 48, shot up to 52 on the sled then decided ill just pull the rest. there was no sense in me just shooting off a sled and going higher up when i wouldn't dare shoot them off hand regardless of how accurate they looked on the sled. First time i tested these out at the longer coal, i was able to shoot up to 55gr. I did however find 46gr to group all in the same hole with the shorter length so thats the only good news i took home from that if i ever want a really hot and accurate load.

Now im in need of some advice on which direction i should take this load development. Should i keep the short high pressured COAL but scale it down to 38gr-46gr or go back to the original but seat deeper maybe 0.010"?

[Bloodman14]

Boy, I ain't no eggspurt on the 45/70, but seating deeper will only increase the pressure. You may want to start from scratch, others with more knowledge than I will hopefully chime in.

[roharmon]

What rifle are your shooting them out of?

[Wayne Smith]

45-70 capable of that under all conditions! My first experience with the cartridge was with a friends Trapdoor - 68 gr FFG under a Lyman 457125 - and I bought my first PAST pad after shooting it the first time. Guy on the next bench was shooting a Barrett .50BMG and offered to trade shots - he was fascinated with the big cloud of smoke. After two shots he looked at me with a pained expression and said "I want my own back!"

You are dealing with a mildly tapered case. Think of the pressure changes in a 45Colt or ACP or a 9mm when you seat deeper - the same thing is happening. Once you think that through - and establish your own recoil limits - you can figure this out yourself.

[JBinMN]

Gotta say that was the most painful load development i've experienced and had to tap out half ways through. Found out why this load dev. was painful compared to the loads i tested for funcionality last week. I seated the bullet at 2.075 compared to the original 2.100. I did this last minute because i noticed there were 2-3 that didnt want to chamber correctly. The original COAL had large recoil but wasn't painful. Today even the starting point i felt a donkey kick me. Ask the range officer who was watching me if he could try it out to see if its just me being a ***** but he said "no way, aint shooting it. i can tell from here that load is too hot".

Using lyman 49 for a 410gr pc cast bullet i started at 45gr of varget, 46, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55. Tapped out at 48, shot up to 52 on the sled then decided ill just pull the rest. there was no sense in me just shooting off a sled and going higher up when i wouldn't dare shoot them off hand regardless of how accurate they looked on the sled. First time i tested these out at the longer coal, i was able to shoot up to 55gr. I did however find 46gr to group all in the same hole with the shorter length so thats the only good news i took home from that if i ever want a really hot and accurate load.

Now im in need of some advice on which direction i should take this load development. Should i keep the short high pressured COAL but scale it down to 38gr-46gr or go back to the original but seat deeper maybe 0.010"?

-------------------
ETA- I am not sure how you could be getting a bullet/boolit that deep into a case without it catching your eye, but my answer(s) here in this post are going on what ya posted in the OP as info. Going on as if you are actually seating to that COL/OAL of 2.10" or 2.075" & not that you made some mistake in what ya posted for COL/OAL. The rest of my post below here, is based on your NOT making a mistake in your info ya posted in your OP.
IF it was just a mistake, just ignore what is below.

---------------------

Hodgdon Load data says Varget on a 405gr. (close enough to 410 to give the min./max. comparison) is 40gr. Min. to 50gr. Max. , giving 1392fps@15600cCUP at that Min. to 1718fps@29600CUP. The COL/OAL being 2.540". Test case parameters was, Case: Winchester, Twist: 1:20", Primer: CCI 200, Large Rifle, Barrel Length: 24" Trim Length: 2.100"

Source:http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle

Appears to me from your OP ( I bolded it in the quote) that you are using the "trim to" length as your COL/OAL, meaning you are quite a bit further into the case with 2.10" COL/OAL or 2.075" COL/OAL than ya would be with 2.540" COL/OAL. .344" to 369" difference deeper. More than a 1/4 inch(.250") but less than 3/8 inch(.375") deeper. That certainly is going to UP the pressures on that firearm, IMO. And then when ya add the powder above Max. ( 50gr. +) suggested, you are likely "pushing the envelope".

I do not own a 45-70 Govt., but I would like to own one... So I read up on what ther folks are doing & your post caught my eye today.
:)
The reason I replied here, is that I do a bit of reloading & load development myself on other firearms, although mostly with reduced loads, but the basics are the same, and I reckon a person has to watch for signs of issues & also at least double check( I triple check) the load data that one can find for comparison to what is going to get tested. Otherwise there can be some issues & sometimes ones that no one would want to have happen to them or their firearm. Of course I could be wrong, but I fear you may be treading where you may not want to be, with load descriptions like ya mentioned in the OP.

I am not sticking my nose into your business, but you asked about the "donkey kick" & what might be done to help out. Even though I don't own one of those 45-70s, as a fellow caster/reloader, I just wanted to let ya know that either you made some sort of mixup on your info in the OP, or you may be creating a bad situation for yourself with those loads in that firearm. I would hate to hear that someone had an issue that ruined a firearm, or even worse, ruined ones life..

Generically, I would suggest ya stepping back & going over the load data once again & it is certainly up to you, but I would pull those loads that are 2.100" or 2.075" COL/OAL, and start over. Your choice....
;)

To specifically answer your underlined question(s) in the quote above,
Should i keep the short high pressured COAL but scale it down to 38gr-46gr or go back to the original but seat deeper maybe 0.010"? I would suggest you don't do either, but re-think your load data & what ya want to start with, paying real close attention to the COL/OAL, in particular..
;)

BTW, here is another load data workup where you can see the load data for a 405gr LFP using Varget is Maxed at 50gr. & in this data sheet they suggest 45gr. as a Suggested start point ( but not Min.). As well the barrel is there at 24" and the COL remains at 2.540".

Source:http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=45-70&Weight=All&type=Rifle&Order=Powder&Source

G'luck! & realize that I am not trying to cause issue with ya & how ya are doing things, but only to try to help.
:)

[tradbear55]

Wow, according to your numbers you're seating the bullet almost a 1/2 inch shorter than the recommended cartridge overall length. That should make those puppies kick like a mule for sure. Beware of KABOOM when you start loading outside the data specs.

[murf205]

Does this 410 gr boolit have a crimp groove? If it does, that would be a great place to start. Turn in a crimp on the groove and then measure the Over All Length. What are you shooting these out of?

[Al_Bundy]

-------------------
ETA- I am not sure how you could be getting a bullet/boolit that deep into a case without it catching your eye, but my answer(s) here in this post are going on what ya posted in the OP as info. Going on as if you are actually seating to that COL/OAL of 2.10" or 2.075" & not that you made some mistake in what ya posted for COL/OAL. The rest of my post below here, is based on your NOT making a mistake in your info ya posted in your OP.
IF it was just a mistake, just ignore what is below.

---------------------

Hodgdon Load data says Varget on a 405gr. (close enough to 410 to give the min./max. comparison) is 40gr. Min. to 50gr. Max. , giving 1392fps@15600cCUP at that Min. to 1718fps@29600CUP. The COL/OAL being 2.540". Test case parameters was, Case: Winchester, Twist: 1:20", Primer: CCI 200, Large Rifle, Barrel Length: 24" Trim Length: 2.100"

Source:http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle

Appears to me from your OP ( I bolded it in the quote) that you are using the "trim to" length as your COL/OAL, meaning you are quite a bit further into the case with 2.10" COL/OAL or 2.075" COL/OAL than ya would be with 2.540" COL/OAL. .344" to 369" difference deeper. More than a 1/4 inch(.250") but less than 3/8 inch(.375") deeper. That certainly is going to UP the pressures on that firearm, IMO. And then when ya add the powder above Max. ( 50gr. +) suggested, you are likely "pushing the envelope".

I do not own a 45-70 Govt., but I would like to own one... So I read up on what ther folks are doing & your post caught my eye today.
:)
The reason I replied here, is that I do a bit of reloading & load development myself on other firearms, although mostly with reduced loads, but the basics are the same, and I reckon a person has to watch for signs of issues & also at least double check( I triple check) the load data that one can find for comparison to what is going to get tested. Otherwise there can be some issues & sometimes ones that no one would want to have happen to them or their firearm. Of course I could be wrong, but I fear you may be treading where you may not want to be, with load descriptions like ya mentioned in the OP.

I am not sticking my nose into your business, but you asked about the "donkey kick" & what might be done to help out. Even though I don't own one of those 45-70s, as a fellow caster/reloader, I just wanted to let ya know that either you made some sort of mixup on your info in the OP, or you may be creating a bad situation for yourself with those loads in that firearm. I would hate to hear that someone had an issue that ruined a firearm, or even worse, ruined ones life..

Generically, I would suggest ya stepping back & going over the load data once again & it is certainly up to you, but I would pull those loads that are 2.100" or 2.075" COL/OAL, and start over. Your choice....
;)

To specifically answer your underlined question(s) in the quote above, I would suggest you don't do either, but re-think your load data & what ya want to start with, paying real close attention to the COL/OAL, in particular..
;)

BTW, here is another load data workup where you can see the load data for a 405gr LFP using Varget is Maxed at 50gr. & in this data sheet they suggest 45gr. as a Suggested start point ( but not Min.). As well the barrel is there at 24" and the COL remains at 2.540".

Source:http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=45-70&Weight=All&type=Rifle&Order=Powder&Source

G'luck! & realize that I am not trying to cause issue with ya & how ya are doing things, but only to try to help.
:)

Sorry i just went to double check the measurements, they were seated at 2.475, the original batch that went well recoil wise were at 2.510. **** i mustve caused a lot of concern here listing 2.075 lol

[Al_Bundy]

Does this 410 gr boolit have a crimp groove? If it does, that would be a great place to start. Turn in a crimp on the groove and then measure the Over All Length. What are you shooting these out of?
just lube grooves, i corrected my statement on the seating depths. 2.475 and 2.510

[tinhorn97062]

I load for this caliber and can attest that my shoulder says “no” long before I ever get to a max load for the Marlin. In fact, I’ve NEVER even gotten to the max load for Marlin. Varget is one of many powders that work for .45-70, but you’re likely going to find better results with a faster powder- IMR 3031, IMR/H4198, RL7....something in that range. Varget is going to need to be loaded pretty stiff to get a good burn, or a heavier bullet. You’re seating wayyyy deeper than I typically seat for my Marlin, and it’s no wonder why that load is a handful. Under normal conditions, that load of Varget should be relatively tame.

[Al_Bundy]

I load for this caliber and can attest that my shoulder says “no” long before I ever get to a max load for the Marlin. In fact, I’ve NEVER even gotten to the max load for Marlin. Varget is one of many powders that work for .45-70, but you’re likely going to find better results with a faster powder- IMR 3031, IMR/H4198, RL7....something in that range. Varget is going to need to be loaded pretty stiff to get a good burn, or a heavier bullet. You’re seating wayyyy deeper than I typically seat for my Marlin, and it’s no wonder why that load is a handful. Under normal conditions, that load of Varget should be relatively tame.

what do you seat at and are you shooting pc bullets as well? well like i mentioned the recoil in the initial test batch at 2.510 didnt hurt and i got up pretty high to 55gr. its only when i seated to 2.475 when even just 46gr added the pain to the recoil. Gotta stick with varget because i stocked up on 32lbs of it for my 223 loads.

[tinhorn97062]

what do you seat at and are you shooting pc bullets as well? well like i mentioned the recoil in the initial test batch at 2.510 didnt hurt and i got up pretty high to 55gr. its only when i seated to 2.475 when even just 46gr added the pain to the recoil. Gotta stick with varget because i stocked up on 32lbs of it for my 223 loads.

I shoot pc’d and regular lubed lead. My OAL is 2.54, and that’s with a flat nose boolit. Varget works fine...I was just eluding to the fact that it’s not the best choice for that caliber....but it does work.

[JBinMN]

Sorry i just went to double check the measurements, they were seated at 2.475, the original batch that went well recoil wise were at 2.510. **** i mustve caused a lot of concern here listing 2.075 lol

:)

I am glad that it was a simple miscommunication. I was a bit worried for ya & your firearm. Glad ya replied so soon also, since I got to thinking, "Maybe he went out & tried more of them... Hope not."...

Although the firearm may stand the pressures at that level likely being produced with those types of loads I thought you may be using, it sure seemed spooky enough that I thought it worth taking time to at least mention it, just in case.
:)

Anyway, G'Luck! in your load testing & I hope ya find that "sweet spot" you are looking for & it doesn't involve any more "donkey kicks".
;)

And Happy Thanksgiving!
:drinks:

[buckshotshoey]

325 gr RCBS Flat nose
50 gr Varget
Approx 1500 fps.

Shoots like a dream. Recoil like a 12 ga or less. Burns clean. Very accurate.

What are you using it for? Elephant? If you are hunting whitetail, go with a lighter boolit. Accurate to 150 yards or a bit more. And the 325 will put the smack down on any buck. If you want less recoil, use a lighter boolit. I can shoot the 325's ALL DAY LONG.

[Al_Bundy]

325 gr RCBS Flat nose
50 gr Varget
Approx 1500 fps.

Shoots like a dream. Recoil like a 12 ga or less. Burns clean. Very accurate.

What are you using it for? Elephant? If you are hunting whitetail, go with a lighter boolit. Accurate to 150 yards or a bit more. And the 325 will put the smack down on any buck. If you want less recoil, use a lighter boolit. I can shoot the 325's ALL DAY LONG.

See that's where I'm confused. I thought heavier bullets would have less recoil because they tend to need less powder. Just using it for paper and an occasional watermelon. I'll probably invest in a chrono if I see something sub $100 this weekend or Monday. The ones I tested last week at 2.510 shot like a 12gauge without any sting so I want to try to replicate those. Are your bullets cast lead as is and what's your oal?

[Al_Bundy]

:)

I am glad that it was a simple miscommunication. I was a bit worried for ya & your firearm. Glad ya replied so soon also, since I got to thinking, "Maybe he went out & tried more of them... Hope not."...

Although the firearm may stand the pressures at that level likely being produced with those types of loads I thought you may be using, it sure seemed spooky enough that I thought it worth taking time to at least mention it, just in case.
:)

Anyway, G'Luck! in your load testing & I hope ya find that "sweet spot" you are looking for & it doesn't involve any more "donkey kicks".
;)

And Happy Thanksgiving!
:drinks:

Dude I had a good laugh with that comment Haha thanks and yeah I'll just barely go down on the oal from 2.510 to 2.500 as those loads seemed pretty tame when I first had a go with them testing for functionality and cycling. But just for safe measure since I am shorting the oal I'll start even lower for the ladder

[buckshotshoey]

See that's where I'm confused. I thought heavier bullets would have less recoil because they tend to need less powder. Just using it for paper and an occasional watermelon. I'll probably invest in a chrono if I see something sub $100 this weekend or Monday. The ones I tested last week at 2.510 shot like a 12gauge without any sting so I want to try to replicate those. Are your bullets cast lead as is and what's your oal?

Yes. As cast.
RCBS mold .45-325-FN-U. #82045

My mold throws at .458
COL... 2.451- 2.452 (I'll double check that)

RCBS recommends using Linotype. And since it's a plain base, they recommend you keep it 1500fps of below. I cast in wheel weights so mine tend to be heavier then the 325 gr advertised.... at about 340gr.

I worked up to 50gr and can go to about 56. But above 50, my accuracy tends to fade away(above about that 1500 fps mentioned earlier).

Getting 2 to 3 inch groups @ 100yds with a red dot, and in a National Match style sitting position. Could prob get better with magnification and from a bench, but i don't use magnification when I hunt. OR A BENCH for that matter! Lol!

I should mention I use lube. Never tried powder coating. I'm guessing you could drive them harder if you PC.

208357
208358

[JSnover]

Just using it for paper and an occasional watermelon.
Lighter boolits, lighter charges. Watermelons are remarkably easy to kill and I've never had a 45-70 fail to penetrate a paper target. I've loaded mine as low as 45 gr of Goex 3F under a 500 grain boolit.

[gary0529]

Al Bundy,
I have an 1895 GG and though I do not fear recoil, I don't embrace it either. I tried going up from 300 gr. J bullets to 405 and 420 with a mid range load- the bruising on my shoulder said WHY!!!!
Never had a deer go more than 3 steps with the milder load of IMR03031 under a 300 gr Hornady JHP
As previously stated quite wisely-what are you looking to shoot with that load? Elephant or Rhino? Man, unless you are stalking a badazz grizzly who WILL eat you unless you drop him there and now, I cannot think of anything in N. America that wont drop quick with a well placed 300 gr. moving at 1800fps. If you want penetration go with a 325 flat point solid lead-most likely will go end to end on anything.
My rule of thumb now is - If I need a lead sled to test it I don't shoot it.

Happy Thanksgiving and hope you have a Merry and Blessed Christmas

Gary

[Wayne Smith]

Al, recoil is an equal and opposite reaction to the mass leaving the barrel, thus the heavier the boolit the more the recoil. I basically use two boolits in my Encore, although I have a bunch more molds. I have the Gould HP 457122 and an old Lee group buy of 420 gr that has a huge meplat. That one is reserved for an opportunity (maybe) of bear hunting. The Gould at about 330gr is my usual shooter.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I quit using bullets heavier than 350 grains in a Marlin 45-70 in 1980. Under 350 yards, on many elk and a moose, 300's work just fine. Recoil and trajectory are the reason. Maybe for black powder long range the 500+ in 12-16 lb rifles, but for fun 300's work fine. My hunting load is a Federal 215M, 58 grains 2015 and a Barnes Original 300 (NOT X) -2150 fps. Recoil is miserable in my early Marlin 1895, but it is a killer. I shoot maybe 30-40 rounds a year at this level. For fun the RCBS 300 FN GC at about 1400-1500 fps using 4198 or Reloder 7, much more enjoyable, 50-100 rounds can be enjoyed at an outing. Enduring recoil WITHOUT REASON is just dumb, not tough.

[pmer]

Al, look for loads using IMR 3031 & IMR 4895. You can charge cases up to about 52.0 grains with 405 grain boolits. My shoulder says no to 4198/RE7 because the recoil smacks like a mule kick. With 3031 you'll be in the high teens for velocity and the recoil will be noticeably "easier".

If you don't have any get a pound and try it. 1895 Marlins want to go fast it shows accuracy wise.

[Rick Hodges]

I load a 300 gr. Remington or Hornady JHP at 1880 fps out of my guide gun. It is plenty for deer. Shoots flat enough for a 150yd. point blank range and doesn't bruise my shoulder.

Most Marlins are happier with bullets or boolits that are under 405 gr. unless modified to aid in feeding longer ones. I found Varget leaves a lot of unburned powder behind unless loaded hotter than I liked.

I have found that mine will feel reliably with rounds with a maximum coa of 2.550 but the heaviest I shoot is a 385 gr. Mountain mold cast that is profiled similar to the Ranch Dog 350.

[buckshotshoey]

I load a 300 gr. Remington or Hornady JHP at 1880 fps out of my guide gun. It is plenty for deer. Shoots flat enough for a 150yd. point blank range and doesn't bruise my shoulder.

Most Marlins are happier with bullets or boolits that are under 405 gr. unless modified to aid in feeding longer ones. I found Varget leaves a lot of unburned powder behind unless loaded hotter than I liked.

I have found that mine will feel reliably with rounds with a maximum coa of 2.550 but the heaviest I shoot is a 385 gr. Mountain mold cast that is profiled similar to the Ranch Dog 350.

I found the same thing. The Varget started burning cleaner when I got above 48 grains. Went to 50 grains, burned clean and is accurate.

[Rick R]

In my experience using Varget in cartridges from .223 to .458Lott it seems happier if slightly compressed. It may not be the perfect powder but it works well.

I never did see what rifle the original poster is loading for?

[Geezer in NH]

Get and wear a past recoil shield or stop winning, :violin:

[RED BEAR]

Never loaded for 45/70 but shot a good number. Been donkey kicked a few times with my 444 usually less powder or less bullet cures it.

[ghh3rd]

I tried a few loads for my 45-70 with 405 gr and 425 gr boolits, and I have to say that they were quite stout, but that nice pad that came on the rifle really works.

When I tried the Ranch Dog 350gr TL boolit over 43 gr. of IMR-4198 sized at .460 I had the best accuracy yet from my Marlin 1895, with 1" groups at 100 yds. I didn't chrony it, but was told it should be about 1800+ fps.

I may go back and try the 405gr again sometime, but here in Florida 305gr is plenty for even the biggest hog out there.

[straphanger]

I have a Browning 1886 Winchester carbine reproduction. Nice rifle w a beautiful barrel. On my first outing, I shot a box of Nitrex (?) cowboy loads plinking. These were cream puffs. I decided to reload some real bullets and geared up with the RCBS 405 gr mold. An article in an old copy of Handloader recommended 45 grains of 3031 as a good all around load. I think that gets the velocity up to about 1550 fps.

That changed the shooting experience considerably! This time I was shooting off the bench, loading rounds one at a time, so the rifle was relatively light. After 20 rounds of those, I decided the best way to validate accuracy and function was to stuff the magazine full and shoot off hand at 50 yards. That improves the experience, but it is still an attention getter. I try to take it out once a year just to enjoy shooting a real rifle, curved steel butt plate, open sights, recoil and all.

[HangFireW8]

Now im in need of some advice on which direction i should take this load development. Should i keep the short high pressured COAL but scale it down to 38gr-46gr or go back to the original but seat deeper maybe 0.010"?

My first COAL rule (especially for levers) is load to a COAL that is most reliable for feed & eject, especially eject of a loaded cartridge (since this can be more problematic than a fired case).

My second COAL rule is that seating the boolit out further USUALLY means more accuracy. Less bullet jump means less time for getting crooked before it seats itself in the throat.

After initial load development, and I've found something accurate, I may refine a load by changing one variable at a time in fine steps- a load ladder of 1/10 grain of powder increments, or changing COAL .010" steps, etc., but only one variable at a time.

Rule #1 can get complicated if you have more than one gun of the same chambering, and they have different preferences.

[Texas by God]

I got 405 cast Lymans up to 2000 fps in my .450 Marlin and was SO glad I only loaded 20 rds. I went back to the 340s around 1600 fps and life was fun again.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Ken]

Think Lead sled?

[EDG]

Gotta say that was the most painful load development i've experienced and had to tap out half ways through. Found out why this load dev. was painful compared to the loads i tested for funcionality last week. I seated the bullet at 2.075 compared to the original 2.100. I did this last minute because i noticed there were 2-3 that didnt want to chamber correctly. The original COAL had large recoil but wasn't painful. Today even the starting point i felt a donkey kick me. Ask the range officer who was watching me if he could try it out to see if its just me being a ***** but he said "no way, aint shooting it. i can tell from here that load is too hot".

Using lyman 49 for a 410gr pc cast bullet i started at 45gr of varget, 46, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55. Tapped out at 48, shot up to 52 on the sled then decided ill just pull the rest. there was no sense in me just shooting off a sled and going higher up when i wouldn't dare shoot them off hand regardless of how accurate they looked on the sled. First time i tested these out at the longer coal, i was able to shoot up to 55gr. I did however find 46gr to group all in the same hole with the shorter length so thats the only good news i took home from that if i ever want a really hot and accurate load.

Now im in need of some advice on which direction i should take this load development. Should i keep the short high pressured COAL but scale it down to 38gr-46gr or go back to the original but seat deeper maybe 0.010"?

Your powder is too slow and the charge is way too heavy.
Try Imr 4227 or 4198. Use only enough to go 1100 fps like a .22 LR.
Stock breaking loads are useless since they are no fun.

[three50seven]

Just buy a 450 Marlin or 458 Win if you want to be punished. There's no reason to push a 45/70 past trap-door levels :roll: