How fast can I push cast?

[brewer12345]

I am fooling around with ballistic calculators in an effort to see if what I have in mind is even feasible. I am thinking about trying to put together a cast load for elk for 30-06. Its pretty clear to me that a 175 or 180 grain cast boolit cruising fast enough to expand (say, 1400 FPS at impact) would mean a dead elk without a lot of fuss assuming a good hit. The challenge is that where I am going for elk usually means shots between 200 and 300 yards. This year I am hunting with jacketed, but it should would be nice to use my own production.

When I plug reasonable estimates for weight, ballistic coefficient, etc. and set the zero to the appropriate distance to make bullet drop between 200 and 300 yards small enough for the shooting I would do, it looks like I need to get about 2400 FPS to get a flat enough trajectory and sufficient down range energy (and another hundred or two of muzzle FPS is even better). Is it possible or wise to do this with a gas checked cast boolit? It appears that pressures would not be an issue, just a question of whether the boolit and lube would be up to the pressures of that kind of speed.

[popper]

2700 with a 168 GC & PC from a 24" 1:10 308W. yes, very doable. Needs a relatively hard alloy. Larry Gibson may ave a good recommendation for alloy. FN is better for hunting but pointy have better BC.

[Grmps]

PS Popper throws a little CU in the mix help hold the bullet together

[acoop101]

You can push them as hard as jacketed bullets but the correct question is how fast can I push them without leading the hell out of your barrel. With powder coating I have found 2500 fps is very doable.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk

[vzerone]

It all depends on alloys used, paper patch, powder coat, rifling depth, type of powder used, bullet alignment, and many more things. It also depends on what you are going to use the bullet for. Super hard alloys are no good for hunting as they become like FMJ's. Those are okay for punching holes in target and may suffice for small critter dispatching as the high velocity shock should blow them up. Some very hard alloys have uses for hunting big dangerous game in Africa.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I'd recommend reading about different boolit alloys and how much pressure the alloy can handle. Once you exceed the Max pressure for a given alloy, it will slump and accuracy will fall off.

this is a good source (link at bottom of the page)
http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm
scroll about half down the page for this chart:
Approximate "Maximum" Chamber Pressure For Lead Alloys (PSI)

[Larry Gibson]

Here's the conundrum; for 2400+ fps with cast bullets from a 10" twist '06 requires a very hard alloy......too hard in my estimation for clean killing at 1400 fps at 300 yards.

A softer more malleable alloy is needed for the bullet to hold together at close range yet give some semblance of terminal performance at 300 yards. Yes, a 30 caliber hard cast bullet put through the lungs of an elk at 1400 fps is going to kill it. The question is; how far will the elk go after being shot, are you going to find it and/or is some other hunter going to shoot it again and claim it before you can find it?

I have killed numerous elk in my time and hunt with a 30-06 with jacketed bullets if the range will/can exceed 200 yards. Otherwise I've found a cast bullet such as the 311041 or the RCBS 30-180-FN when cast of a proper alloy for hunting and pushed to 1950 - 2300 fps out of 10 and 12" twist barrels to be adequate for elk out to 200 yards. The use of a .35 - 375 caliber 200 - 280 gr FN cast at 2200 - 2500 fps (quite easily done with 12 and 14" twist barrels of 24" length) is much better. If you really want to effectively hunt/harvest/kill elk with a 30-06 out to 300 yards with cast bullet then I suggest you consider rebarreling with a 13 or 14" twist barrel of 26" length, use a proper design cast bullet of a proper alloy.

I know that's not what you wanted to hear but it is factual.

[Grmps]

Larry,
How would a dual hardness lead bullet work? Hard base with softer nose

[quilbilly]

Faster than you should need or want to. Most of the rifle cast calibers I shoot perform better accuracy-wise and field-wise at velocities well under maximum even on elk. Of course, this defies conventional wisdom but moderately soft heavy-for-caliber cast lead often does that.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,
How would a dual hardness lead bullet work? Hard base with softer nose

It definitely would be an improvement, especially at normal cast bullet velocities out of a 10" twist barrel. The conundrum is that the OP wants an effective range of 300 yards. That requires velocity. The softer nose does not hold up under the acceleration needed to retain 1400+ fps at 300 yards.

When I first got into the calculations for the 30 XCB bullet at 2900+ fps I envisioned it being 400 yard capable as all the ballistic calculations showed that. What I found was it required a BHN of 22 - 24 to withstand the acceleration to 2900+ fps even out of the 31" barrel. Expansion testing showed clearly that for medium/large game 300 yards was a more realistic max range if any expansion of the bullet was to be expected. Many times what we think and want just doesn't pan out in reality. A .308W pushing a #2 cast (AC'd) 311041 at 2500 fps from a 14" twist is also an excellent 300 yard medium/big game cast bullet 30 caliber cartridge. The problem the OP has is the probable 10" twist of his 30-06.

[vzerone]

It definitely would be an improvement, especially at normal cast bullet velocities out of a 10" twist barrel. The conundrum is that the OP wants an effective range of 300 yards. That requires velocity. The softer nose does not hold up under the acceleration needed to retain 1400+ fps at 300 yards.

When I first got into the calculations for the 30 XCB bullet at 2900+ fps I envisioned it being 400 yard capable as all the ballistic calculations showed that. What I found was it required a BHN of 22 - 24 to withstand the acceleration to 2900+ fps even out of the 31" barrel. Expansion testing showed clearly that for medium/large game 300 yards was a more realistic max range if any expansion of the bullet was to be expected. Many times what we think and want just doesn't pan out in reality. A .308W pushing a #2 cast (AC'd) 311041 at 2500 fps from a 14" twist is also an excellent 300 yard medium/big game cast bullet 30 caliber cartridge. The problem the OP has is the probable 10" twist of his 30-06.


You present some good advice Larry especially about the distance to shoot elk is the conundrum, but you always have to stick your theory in there somewhere. You missed your fortune by not working for an advertising agency. Anyways the 06's 10 twist isn't going to hurt. Remember my cousin pushed that soft alloy 30 caliber bullet from a 10 twist AR 10 to 3100 fps +. If one knows what they are doing you can shoot alloys fast that you wouldn't think possible.

Now for elk and cast I like the idea of a very good quality accurate rifle in 45-70. You yourself know they shoot quite far for their velocity range, far exceeding 300 yards. I myself have shot deer with a 45-70 at 250 yards using AC WW's and they expanded quite well at that distance. Casting dual alloy hardness bullets is not as easily done as said. Often hard alloys hollow pointed can surprise you.

[Larry Gibson]

vzerone

Then there should be nothing stopping you from grabbing a 10" twist 30 caliber rifle, conducting accuracy tests using 10 shot groups at 100, 200 and 300 yards with a cast bullet at 3000 fps to prove me wrong, is there?

Oh, and try not to use cropped pictures of targets like your uncle did of that claimed 3100 fps " group". We have pictures of the whole target and the claimed load was tested......over pressure and slower than claimed.

With every post you're sounding more and more like your "uncle"....hmmmmm.....

[vzerone]

vzerone

Then there should be nothing stopping you from grabbing a 10" twist 30 caliber rifle, conducting accuracy tests using 10 shot groups at 100, 200 and 300 yards with a cast bullet at 3000 fps to prove me wrong, is there?

Oh, and try not to use cropped pictures of targets like your uncle did of that claimed 3100 fps " group". We have pictures of the whole target and the claimed load was tested......over pressure and slower than claimed.

With every post you're sounding more and more like your "uncle"....hmmmmm.....

We ought to sound alike and he's not my uncle he's my first cousin. We grew up together, shared one another's homes, went to the same school all twelve years with the same teachers so why shouldn't we sound the same? We split when we went to different branches of the service. We reunited after I retired and moved to TN. If you know anything about lingistics you would understand what I'm talking about. You know Larry how people in other states can pick out New Yorkers?

BTW that target wasn't photoshopped it was cropped as the target paper was a very large square. It was cropped to fit it on the scanner. I can't remember, but like lots of other people, we like to get a lot of use out of a target and not just shoot one group on it and then file it. So like said I don't remember what was on the rest of it. I shot that load and it did what he said it does. I had him email it to me so I'll post it here in color again for those that never saw it.

I'm still laughing at he's my uncle, Larry I'm 70! In rare instances a nephew can be older then his uncle. Good laugh there thanks!

207666

[RPRNY]

This is a trajectory problem rather than an alloy problem. Or, rather, it should be.

There is no need to shoot cast at 2800 fps to kill elk. Starting slower means less speed is lost over distance. And, as noted above, while a flat meplat will have better wounding properties, a spitzer type profile will improve BC. First, bullet choice. While 180 j-words are the classic elk load, I, for one, would suggest a 200 - 210 cast boolit, either the 311299 or 311284. I would like to see MV of 1800 fps, leaving you around 1200 fps at 300 yards. That should mean that WW is a perfectly acceptable alloy that should expand sufficiently, and will certainly penetrate. Zero for 300 yards, or the most you can with scope, and you should be about 3 feet high at 150 yards. I would start with 20 grs 4227 or 28 grs H4895 and work up to 1800 fps, or start with Ed Harris' "Universal Load" of 16 grs 2400.

FWIW, I did a "retro" hunt for elk this year in the Rockies with a Krag sporter using the 311284 and 19 grs IMR 4227. Never got to check it's effectiveness though. Only got out for three days before a work "emergency" called my back to the office and during those three days, never had a shot on a bull. But I was quite happy with it out to 200 yards, my self-imposed limit with open sights.

[vzerone]

I forgot to say Larry that my cousin just lengthened his range. He can shoot now to 549 yards. Am I allowed to refer to him by his old handle when he was on here or his first name? Tired of calling him cousin. I just felt his name was taboo here is why.

Now I doubt that 130 grain bullet he used in that AR 10 is a likely candidate for 500 yards due to it's very low BC and SD. Hell it's like a 30 caliber 38 special 158 grain roundnose in shape. It would certainly surprise me if it did well at that distance. We'll have to try it.

[vzerone]

This is a trajectory problem rather than an alloy problem. Or, rather, it should be.

There is no need to shoot cast at 2800 fps to kill elk. Starting slower means less speed is lost over distance. And, as noted above, while a flat meplat will have better wounding properties, a spitzer type profile will improve BC. First, bullet choice. While 180 j-words are the classic elk load, I, for one, would suggest a 200 - 210 cast boolit, either the 311299 or 311284. I would like to see MV of 1800 fps, leaving you around 1200 fps at 300 yards. That should mean that WW is a perfectly acceptable alloy that should expand sufficiently, and will certainly penetrate. Zero for 300 yards, or the most you can with scope, and you should be about 3 feet high at 150 yards. I would start with 20 grs 4227 or 28 grs H4895 and work up to 1800 fps, or start with Ed Harris' "Universal Load" of 16 grs 2400.

FWIW, I did a "retro" hunt for elk this year in the Rockies with a Krag sporter using the 311284 and 19 grs IMR 4227. Never got to check it's effectiveness though. Only got out for three days before a work "emergency" called my back to the office and during those three days, never had a shot on a bull. But I was quite happy with it out to 200 yards, my self-imposed limit with open sights.

The 311299 has a better BC and I think it hollow pointed (and I'm not talking about a honking hollowpoint) that it may do well.

[RPRNY]

The 311299 has a better BC and I think it hollow pointed (and I'm not talking about a honking hollowpoint) that it may do well.

If you can get a hollow point 311299, that would add peace of mind out at the long end of things, but I am unsure of the extent to which it may impact terminal velocities. The 311284 was designed for the US Palma Team in 1906, so I feel pretty confident that it has excellent long range properties. Either one would be a good choice in any event. Like the project!

[brewer12345]

I know that's not what you wanted to hear but it is factual.

Heh, what I wanted to hear was the truth, not moonbeams and unicorn farts. I very much appreciate the collected wisdom here (and yours in particular, Larry), so what I was asking was whether this is an exercise in futility or not. It appears that it very well may be.

The rifle in question is a Tikka T3 with a 1 in 11 twist, relatively fast. As RPRNY indicated, I could just zero for a big drop with a slower bullet, but I would be a bit uncomfortable doing so vs. a flatter shooting load. I guess I will start fooling around with Lee soup cans and work my way up the velocity scale, then I will try messing with real hunting bullets.

I appreciate being headed off at the pass. At the very least, this sounds like it would be the bleeding edge of what cast can do and not for the beginner to expect to achieve success on easily.

[Larry Gibson]

brewer12345

That 11" twist just may give you more of an edge than you think, especially if you're considering a 311299/314299 cast bullet. You should get to 2200 fps with suitable hunting accuracy. Have to see where the remaining velocity hits 1400 - 1500 fps. Knowing the trajectory and having reliable range finders these days then means the trajectory is the real problem as RPRNY suggests.

The loaded rounds are easily HP'd on tha case trimmer with the Forster 1/8" HP tool. The photo shows a 314299 so HP'd.

207670207671

[Larry Gibson]

The story continues to change on your uncle/cousin/whatever......he said on another forum the bullet was a 118 gr......? He also told me he was never in the service.....?

I never said the photo you posted again was "photo shopped".....you really should quit putting wrong words in others mouths. Read post #12 again....I said "cropped". Maybe that's your problem....one of reading comprehension? Anyways here is the whole uncropped photo. I think everyone can see what it really is and why it was cropped.

207674

[bstone5]

To go fast, paper patched cast bullets have worked in my 308 Win bolt gun. Still shoot cast sized to .309 that are powder coated with a home made gas check loaded with 10 grains of Trail Boss. My 9 year old grand son likes to shoot the 308 Win with the Trail Boss load. He goes thu the ammo at the gun club.

[vzerone]

Yes and in black and white that target shows a hole to the bottom right of the main group which you see isn't there in the color photo. Those smudges on the color photo showed up as a hole in the black and white which I have no explaination. So why post the whole target when the group spoken about is in the bottom left corner. Like I said it has been shot at with something else, but not the 130 grain Lee bullet from the AR 10. You yourself said it wasn't shopped. So tell me what does the full target show that you believe to be so incriminating? Like mentioned the color target shows the group clearly. So there's two other hoels in it, big deal!

BTW the way that target Larry posted was stolen by one of his friends that use to be on here by entering Joe's Photobucket because Joe didn't have it locked. Admirable friends you have Larry. His name is Sgt Mikey had an chimpanzee pic for an avator.

I'll tell Joe you think enough of him to keep some of his stuff on your pc.

[brewer12345]

brewer12345

That 11" twist just may give you more of an edge than you think, especially if you're considering a 311299/314299 cast bullet. You should get to 2200 fps with suitable hunting accuracy. Have to see where the remaining velocity hits 1400 - 1500 fps. Knowing the trajectory and having reliable range finders these days then means the trajectory is the real problem as RPRNY suggests.

The loaded rounds are easily HP'd on tha case trimmer with the Forster 1/8" HP tool. The photo shows a 314299 so HP'd.

207670207671

Thanks, Larry. What alloy would you use with the 311299 pushed fast? Obviously something like Lyman #2 would strike me as good for terminal performance, but would it come apart pushed that fast?

[OS OK]

OoooPs! . . . "Them other holes was the old man in the lane next to him...cataracts ya know!"

[TXGunNut]

My only experience pushing a hunting boolit that fast involved heat treating as well as a GC and a fairly hard alloy. It was a 35 Whelen and 2for some reason the rifle and the 230 gr boolit would not shoot consistently at a lower velocity. Very few critters here in TX need that much killing but it worked very well on a pretty large hog. It did not exit and I was reluctant to recover the boolit from a big old stinky boar. BAC lube was more than up to the challenge of 2400 fps so it may work for your project as well. I don't know if you're expecting expansion at 200-300 yards but that's something to consider as well.
Bottom line, I think it can be done but it will take a bit of research and range time.

[Larry Gibson]

vzerone

My last post to on this thread regards your incessant garbage attempting to disprove something with such garbage which you can not prove with facts. Your actions continually ruin many a thread.

"So tell me what does the full target show that you believe to be so incriminating?"

Since you asked. Notice the keyholing and lack of tears around all the other bullet holes except the "group". Note the radial tears in the "group". Note the bullet profile of the bottom half+ of the group. That is a key hole. There is not 4 shots in the "group" but one shot and a key hole. I have shot enough printed targets on printer paper to recognize that. The radial tears are from a key holing bullet going through sideways. I know you'll come up with some feeble excuse about the lack of backing causing that but it's just too coincidental that the only unsupported place on that target is where the "group" ended.....yeah right, give us a break.

207681

You're also forgetting I pressure and velocity tested that load also. I could not attain the claimed 3100 fps with a 24" barrel and the pressure level was close to 70,000 psi. I used a very similar bullet and they also demonstrated keyholing and gave almost the exact same size group as on the posted full target.

You might also be aware of Google Earth and what it shows about your uncle/cousin/whatever's place.

Finally you have ignored the request to conduct a similar scientific test as I have done and requested and as requested by many others. You and your uncle/cousin/whoever have always ignored every ones request to provide sufficient test data to prove the RPM Threshold is non-existent. The failure to do so speaks volumes...... however it does "credential" your position as a "drive by poster"......I'm still ROTHFLMAO on that one........

[swheeler]

Larry that looks like a five(5) shot group of about 9 inches high and 5 inches wide? I think you exceeded the RPM threshold by beau coeur GI,
3000fps only impressive if you can hit what you are aiming at207710 I'll take this at 1100fps less as long as I can do it on demand..02


cropped?;) you'll never know207786

[35remington]

As always, a single "group" consisting of a relatively few shots on a piece of paper proves absolutely zilch.

If you wanna be believed, put multiple small groups on the same piece of paper. Or one group with lots of shots comprising the group. Then the disbelief fades away pretty quickly.

On my other forum, all the "moa" leverguns with exposed hammers are crawling out of the woodwork. When I ask to see multiple groups shot with these super accurate 336s printed on the same piece of paper to show that the shooting is truly representative of what the gun will do for an average to prove its "moa" capabilities, somehow nobody can manage to come up with one.

Sorta funny given how common it is for someone to claim their gun is a tackdriver, no? If it really will do it for an "average" definitive proof of same should be easy. Just shoot more groups on the same piece of paper. If it will average super accuracy, it will do it for..... well, a statistical average. This always requires more shooting. Not less.

One group of a few shots raises an eyebrow and prompts me to ask where the other groups are.

[Forrest r]

Agreed ^^^^^
I tend to put in any post I do that has a single group on a piece of paper:
"Not hand picked/cherry picked by any means, the target is nothing more then the test target used to test that load"

As far as the rpm/alloy/can/can't things that's been going on for too long. Everyone need to test for themselves. I know I've been slowly testing/studying for a couple years now. I'm sure there's better cartridges to test with, but I've gone with the 308w. I've tested with 3 different bbl's so far.
1 in 10 twist 24" 6-groove match chamber varmint contour
1 in 10 twist 20" 4-groove standard chamber varmint countour
1 in 11 twist 25" 4-groove (shallow groove, 308/301) custom chamber (cut for 175gr match bullets) varmint contour

I just got around to installing a 30" bbl/1 in 14 twist with 6-grooves and a match (340") chamber with a varmint contour on the rifle. Got everything bedded and plan on testing the same alloys/bullets/loads that were used in the other 3 bbl's.

Same rifle (old puma rifle), 4 different bbl's (all new). Some might say the 1 in 10's are best, other's the longer slower twists. Myself I plan on letting the bbl's speak for them selves. I will say that the 1 in 10 match bbl was pretty even with the 1 in 11 match bbl. The 1 in 10 has 6-grooves (308/300) and a match chamber cut for 168gr bullets. The 1 in 11 has 4 shallow grooves (308/301) and a longer leade angle in it's match chamber (cut for the 175's). While the longer leade angle on the 1 in 11 twist was better for the cast/lead bullets the shallow groove depth/less grooves couldn't hold the cast bullets like the deeper grooved 1 in 10 twist with the deep 6-grooves.

The end result was both bbl's were equal. Granted I only tested 6 different cast bullets from either cramer or egan molds. Along with 2 different styles of gas checks/2 different gc materials. 3 different alloys, water dropped, air cooled, 2 different lubes, pc'ing the bullets and testing plain cast vs bump dies of the same bullet. Really didn't do a lot of testing/shooting, around 5,000 +/- rounds in each bbl in conditions anywhere from sunny to rain. 20* to 95* and wind from every direction. All the testing was done @ 100yds.

Will that 30" 1 in 14 twist bbl run circles around the other 3 bbl's when it comes to velocity with lead bullets??? Absolutely!!! That 1 in 10 match bbl was an excellent bbl. Had a .332 chamber, got tired of neck turning the cases. Sold it and bought the 1 in 11 twist match bbl with the $$$. I'm going to put that bbl on a another 308 I have laying around for a jacketed only rifle/175gr jacketed bullets that I swage. The 1 in 11 had a custom chamber that had a long leade in the chamber. Couple that with the shallow 4-grooves (308/301), the cast bullets fit extremely well in the chambers. I like to plink with the lee 312-160gr tl bullet. This is a picture of the dummy round I made for the 1 in 11 twist bbl with the custom chamber. I put that same dummy round in the new 1 in 14 twist bbl with the 6-groove 308/300 bbl. Had to take a cleaning rod to get it out of the bbl/chamber. As you can see the lands bit into the bullet pretty good.
/https://i.imgur.com/aSySOWm.jpg

Why all the junk typed above? Because I believe there's a lot more to driving cast bullets fast than something a simple as an alloy or a bbl twist. While both are huge parts of the quest for speed, they are both only parts of the puzzle.

A good bbl is 1st. Chamber of that bbl 2nd (the 1 in 14 has a .340 neck/excellent for nato brass & 311 bullets). # of grooves/depth of grooves 3rd. rate of twist 4th & alloy 5th

The only reason I put the rate of twist before alloy is that 1 in 11 twist that was slicked down/shallow grooved for jacketed bullets held it's own against a full blown match chambered 6-groove bbl. The 1 in 10 match bbl was better than the 1 in 11 bbl in every way, the only difference was the rate of twist.
1 in 10 vs 1 in 11
full blown match chamber vs standard chamber with a custom leade cut in it
308/300 vs 308/301
6-groove vs 4-groove

Anyway, a lot goes into cast bullets in rifles. The alloy vs twist debate doesn't surprise me and will continue to go on and on. What I do find interesting is why more casters aren't ordering custom bbl's for their cast bullets???

[OS OK]

What I do find interesting is why more casters aren't ordering custom bbl's for their cast bullets???

Pretty good post...enjoyed the read...

BUT..as to the answer to your question..."Some of us have to dance with the girl we brought to the party."

[Larry Gibson]

What I do find interesting is why more casters aren't ordering custom bbl's for their cast bullets???

Pretty good post...enjoyed the read...

BUT..as to the answer to your question..."Some of us have to dance with the girl we brought to the party."

I certainly agree with that and "dance" with many just as they came to the party.

What I also don't understand and also find interesting agreeing with forrest r's last question ("What I do find interesting is why more casters aren't ordering custom bbl's for their cast bullets???") is those who ask about buying a rifle for cast bullet shooting or are rebarreling a rifle they already have for cast bullet shooting almost always go with what they're told "works best for jacketed bullets"........:killingpc

If they want to dance fast with cast bullets then they should consider bringing a girl who can dance fast. BTW Forrest r's 30" barreled .308W with a 14" twist will shoot very well with many jacketed bullets including Sierra's 175 MKs. Too many believe the RPM Threshold Naysayers who say 13 and 14" twist .30 caliber barrels are no good and won't stabilize jacketed bullets........or even heavier cast bullets like the 311299. That just shows their lack of knowledge.

So my advise is; if you want to dance with .30 caliber cast bullets slow or fast then get a girl with a minimal 12" twist or preferably a 14" twist. A 13" twist (common .308W Palma twist these days) is a very good compromise. Otherwise, if you want to dance fast and get a 10" twist then be prepared to have your toes stepped on.........

[Tom W.]

I know that in my misspent youth I tried loading the bullets that I cast for my .30/30 into my .308 with regular jacketed powder charges and got patterns rather than groups. I can shoot the same bullets with light loads and get good results in my 30-06, but I use them for plinking or fire forming loads. The bullets are a 160 gr rn from Lee and a 168 gr. ( I think) fn I bought that Ranch Dog was selling here. The RD bullet is the better shooter in my '06, both do excellent in my 30/30. I have to go get my rifle from my son's house and either borrow his dies or get my own set. It's an old NEF that has the wrong base for the scope on it, but shoots great. I loaded up a bunch of light loads for my late wife to shoot. I'm blabbering now. Just started to say that I couldn't get anything that resembled a group with extremely fast cast loads.

[OS OK]

Good humorous explanation Gibson...it's nice to read your work when your 'anti-fan club' ain't around mucking things up!

[Larry Gibson]

Good humorous explanation Gibson...it's nice to read your work when your 'anti-fan club' ain't around mucking things up!

Yes, with all the "muck" sometimes I do have to put my chest waders on instead of my dancing boots.......:groner:


:drinks:

[runfiverun]

ditto.