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catboat
08-15-2008, 03:31 PM
I've read a number of paper patching posts and sites over the years, and Matthews "The Paper Jacket", and I would like to offer some info to paper patcher users. I used to work in the paper manufacturing business (actually I sold process chemicals to paper machines) for nearly 25 years. My expertise was optimizing the wet end chemistry of paper machines for maximum retention of solids (fiber and filler) and soluble (sizing, strength additives) material to achieve customer specs of paper for paper making companies. I have a B.S. in Paper Science and Engineering (now retired, but going back to school to be a dental hygenist. Why? I'm tired of overnight travel, and I wanted to do something different.)

I hope these comments can help the reader think out some issues, to assist in loading.

Paper is made from a suspension of wood fiber and water. The fibers run in length from "long" (for a soft wood fiber, which is added for sheet strength-sort of like re-bar for concrete), to "medium" (hardwood fiber) to "short" (ground wood fiber for newsprint/directory/coated groundwood magazine paper), to "very short" (called "fines" which are less than 76 micron). Too much long fiber makes paper with lousy formation (blotchy). This has poor printing and production properties (poor couch vacuum respones, poor printing, poor smoothness, and expensive (softwood kraft is expensive).

Depending on the type of paper being made, fiber lengths are blended to give enough strength, and good runnability on the machine, with desired end physical properties of paper (tensile, tear, burst, porosity, Hercules ink test/sizing, optical properites such as brightness and opacity and others). Fiber by itself, no matter what the length distribution is, can't do it all by itself for printing grades. Because of this, other additives are put into the mix. For increasing opacity and brightness, various fillers are added-such as calcium carbonate (CaC03, precipitated CaCO3>"pcc" or ground CaCO3>"gcc", titanium dioxide (tio2), clay (for acid pH machines), various chemical optical/fluorescent whiteners/brighteners additives (oba or fwa this gives you the "96" or higher blue white bright paper, and glows in a blue light presence). PCC and GCC are cheaper than fiber, so the papermaker tries to use as much as possible to reduce fiber costs (but also causes loss of strength), while maintaining the balance / compromise to machine runnablitily, and final physical/optical properties. For printing grades, it is common to have inorganic filler levels (pcc, gcc, tio2 or combinations of them, or clay-in acid/neutral systems) in the 20-26+% range in the base sheet.

Fillers are abrasive (ie titanium dioxide/TiO2 , clay ). The lighter the basis weight the sheet of paper is, a higher level of inorganic fillers are added (and weaker the sheet), so as to maintain opacity (think "onion skin" writing paper or paper used for Bibles). Keep this in mind when you shoot a paper patched bullet.

Other chemicals are added to the base sheet of the the paper to give printing properties. One is "sizing". In alkaline papermaking, which is the majority of the paper mills, usually AKD or ASA sizing is used to the base sheet ("internal" sizing). These chemicals by themselves don't impact any negative issues to rifle bores, but they do create an issue for wrapping a bullet. The more a sheet of paper is sized, the more water resistant it is. It takes longer to have a paper patch "get soft" or "weak" for wrapping. You can do quick test to see how much sizing the sheet of paper has you are using if you simply lick on spot on one side of the paper. See how long it takes to show a wet spot on the other side. Count the time in seconds. This will give you a good idea of the amount of sizing. Consider two sheets of paper: your local newspaper (which is unsized, or at most, minimally sized), and a sheet of writing paper, or onion skin (heavily sized). If you lick the newsprint, it will "show through" a wet spot almost immediately. If you do it to writing paper, it can take 10-60-100's of seconds, depending on the grade of paper. Sizing (base sheet, or "internal sizing") is used to make paper more printable at the presses for sharp images.

Low or unsized sheets have a capillary effect or "feathering" when supjected to inks. Highly sized sheets have crisp images, with limited feathering. Try this with your newsprint and fine writing paper. Use a felt tip or fountain pen on the newsprint, and then on the writing paper. The newsprint will have a high degree of "feathering." Sizing is sometimes added to the dry paper called "surface sizing" as well. So, a sheet of paper can be very water resistant (not water proof, or strong like paper towels, which use wet strength resins to retain fiber strength when wet, ie "Bounty" paper towels holding a cup of coffee at "Rosie's Diner" (if you are old enought to remember those tv commericials).

If you want to wrap a bullet, you can add some baking soda to your wetting solution. Baking soda will raise the pH of the water (more alkaline, or basic), and penetrate the highly sized sheet faster, to allow the fibers to get some water. You can also use warm/hot water (with or without the baking soda), as heat speeds all chemical reactions. You may also be able to "wet out" highly sized sheet of paper using vineger (which is acetic acid, and make it work even faster by using heated vinegar). I don't recommend it for paper patchers, as the acidic residue can lead to corrosion. Stay with the much safer (no corrosion issues) alkaline/basic higher pH (>7.0) such as baking soda and water. Try ~ half teaspoon (amount not critcal) of baking soda in a pyrex dish (about 2-3 oz) and fully dissolve (hot water will help dissolve it faster too).

Paper is also treated with internal and external starch to provide sheet strength. Starch is cheaper than fiber. Paper makers want to reduce the long costly strong fiber as much as possible. Starch gives the sheet "rattle." You notice this in onion skin. Hold one sheet of onion skin and shake it. A sheet with a high level of starch will have a rattle noise to it. That's because it is stiff, like adding starch to a shirt.

Starch can be abrasive to a rifle bore. Not much, but some. Starch by itself doesn't provide sizing, but it aids in retaining sizing to the sheet. So, if you have a lightweight, highly sized sheet, it likely has a fair amount of starch. It contributes to the wettability of the patch, and the abasion to the bore. Starch on the patch, may lead to some of the bore deposits sometimes mentioned. ( side note: Also, if some people use egg white as a protein binder to hold/glue a patch together, this can be a compliment source for those hard brown deposits in the bore.)

Paper has various physical properties (ie strength). Probably the most important to paper patchers is "tear." A paper machine squirts out a watery mix of fiber and additives at ~ 0.5-1.0% solids at the headbox slice. The "slice" (orifice from which the fibrous mixture exit) is about 1/4" or so wide, by as wide as the machine (8 ft to over 24 feet long). It squirts onto a revolving "conveyor belt" called a "wire." The wire is a continous belt, made of plastic mesh. I am simplifying the description a great deal but it looks like a highly woven window screen. The velocity of the wire is ususally just a tad faster than the linear velocity of the exiting jet stream of fiber from the slice. This differential is called "drag". It aligns the long fiber a bit for machine directional strength (which is important for runnability and profits). If you have too much drag, you get too much machine direction (MD) tear resistance (strength) , and less cross machine (CD or CMD) strength. When the MD tear = CMD tear, this is called a "square sheet." This is not necessarily good or bad, it just is. It depends on if you need this property for customer specs or machine runnability (and usually it's a compromise between the two).

You can measure MD or CMD tear yourself. Take a sheet of paper and tear the sheet along one axis of the sheet of paper, then 90 degree along the other axis of the paper. If the fibers are aligned in the major axis, due to the DRAG of the wire" slice velocity, the sheet will tear EASIER along the major or machine direction MD). If you turn the sheet 90 degrees, it will normall be harder to tear across the machine (CMD) direction. This is because you are trying to tear ACROSS the longer fibers that have been aligned slightly by the DRAG created between the linear velocity difference between the jet/slice velocity and the wire. If you try tearing a sheet in 90 degree directions, and don't notice much of a difference, this is likely due to the sheet "being square" for tear measurements (cross machine tear ~= machine tear). Nothing wrong with a "square sheet" for the papermaker, customer, or paper patcher. Just don't get frustrated in trying to find the "stronger direction." You aren't wrong, you just proved to yourself the sheet has a square tear. Wrap it, and shoot it.

With this knowledge, you can now wrap your bullets with a paper paper so that you get maximum strength in the wrapping direction (which is the machine direction, or the direction with the aligned fibers due to the DRAG). So, any sheet of paper you have, you can give a little tear, then turn 90 degrees, and measure the tear again to see which one is stronger/weaker. The WEAKER tear is the STRONGER tensile (or PULLING) force, which is the machine direction, which is the axis you want to wrap AROUND the bullet, or PERPENDICULAR to the bullets major axis. Get that? Read it again until you have it down.

You can also do a quick test by holding a smale square ( ie 1" x 1") piece of paper in the palm of your hand. The moisture and heat from your hand will cause the paper to curl. The paper will curl in the CROSS MACHINE direction (or , the direction with the least amount of long fiber aligned with it.) This will help you position paper before cutting on a template.

Paper is abrasive. Non-coated paper contains up to 26+% inorganic filler. (don't use glossy coated paper, as that has even more filler in the surface applied coating. Not good for paper patching).

Tracing paper is good for paper patching because it has minimal organic filler. You don't want opacity in tracing paper. So, tracing paper is great for paper patching because it is strong, thin, and has minimal abrasive properties due to minimal inorganic fillers ( "ash content"), minimizkng barrel/ bore abrasion ( longer barrel life).

LENS PAPER may be good, if I can find a source which is thick enough. Think about it, you don't want abrasives in lens paper to damage expensive optical lenses. You want it to be strong, and have some to minimal water resistance.

If you can't find a good source of lens paper, stick with .002-.003" tracing paper (to double wrap a bullet, to get ~ 0.08-0.010" total thickness/added diameter.

Your homework:
Bring a micrometer to the paper store and measure the thickness of the paper for your needs.

Class is now dismissed.

Go have fun during recess.

BrentD
08-15-2008, 03:43 PM
Lens paper is a rice paper, no?

I think you will be little able to tell a difference among most papers on the target or the barrel, provided the fit of bullet+patch to bore is the same.

Just my wager and experience.

good stuff though. I like to know more about paper.
Brent

docone31
08-15-2008, 04:01 PM
Catboat,
I personally want to thank you for the time spent on writing the article. It means a lot to me.
Personally, I want the abrasive qualities of paper in my bore. I use this property to "fire lap" my bore. I do like em smooth. Paper is incredibly abrasive.
Never thought of using sodium bicarbonate to help wetting. Hmmmm. I have had issues with patches not adhering to themselves. I went quickly with the water this time. Some of my patches started unrolling.
Your article makes sense.
I plan on definately rereading it later.
Thanks

2muchstuf
08-15-2008, 04:06 PM
Thanks for the info catboat.
This is what I really love about this site. The guys here really know their sh t, and they're not afraid to share their knowledge with others.
2

yondering
08-15-2008, 04:22 PM
Wow, thanks for all the information Catboat. I'll have to come back and read that again.

I've also had some trouble with paper not sticking to itself, especially with tracing paper or other stronger paper that resists tearing well. Any suggestions? Will the baking soda/ hot water make it stick, just by getting it "wetter"?

scrapcan
08-15-2008, 05:10 PM
great stuff. now I have to apply it.

montana_charlie
08-15-2008, 05:17 PM
Catboat,
I think I got the wood fiber thing, but could you say something about 'cotton' or 'rag' content?
CM

catboat
08-15-2008, 06:01 PM
In days of old, (late 1800's) paper (some grades) were indeed made from recycled rags. Chemical pulping of wood was still developing. Paper machines were small and slow. Pulp was made in batches (like using a big blender, called a "beater."). Rags were used to be the "long fiber." It was too long, (bad formation) so it was chopped up in the beater, as the fibers were subjected to mechanical energy (refining). Rags were used in various proportions, much like softwood kraft is used today.

Cotton linters were used (cotton fibers), in the same manner. They gave great strength.

Not many, if any, paper mills making paper from actual rags (there used to be one in the Albany area of NY about 10 years ago, not sure if still there).

Currently, term "rag content" and "cotton" refer to the % cotton linters (not actual rags), added to the paper pulp process (linters are much easier to process than actual rags, but harder to handle than soft wood kraft fibers).

shooter93
08-15-2008, 08:37 PM
Great stuff...you read very little about papers, thanks a bunch. Want to give us the run down comparison between rag and wood papers?

catboat
08-15-2008, 09:48 PM
In general terms, everything I mentioned in "Paper 101" applies to both. Specifically, "rag" or "cotton content" papers need to have (if I remember correctly) at least 25% cotton linters to be considered (and be able to be called) " x percent rag/cotton content" (with 25% the minimum to qualify). The cotton linters also give a cotton rag content sheet " rattle."

Typically cotton/rag paper is "high quality" but that is a subjective term. It usually refers to printing qualities, such as good ink hold out (sizing) for good crisp ink images or printing (check paper, is very good paper). So, you need to keep that in mind when trying to wet the cotton/rag paper. It will require more time to penetrate (try the "lick test" and count the time for a wet spot to show through the other side ).

Now, "wood paper" or "wood-containing" paper is a term you probably swerved unknowingly into. What you probably meant was "non-rag fiber" or "non-cotton linter containing paper." In that case, again, "paper 101" applies. However, to be technically correct, "wood-containing" paper means the paper contains groundwood, which is a mechanical or thermomechanical (TMP) or chemi-thermomechanically (CTMP) made pulp. Ground wood fiber ("wood fiber") is short, bulky and weak. Groundwood fiber is litterally ground on a course grinding stone, with water/steam and applied pressure. A piece of raw wood has fiber which is in a defined structure. Wood fiber (either hard wood or soft wood) is held together by a "glue" called lignan. Chemical pulping (sulfate or kraft process (same thing) ,sulfite chemical pulping uses various pH levels, high temperatures to dissolve the interfiber bonding lignan (glue). Lignan free pulp is then usually bleached to a whitish color (exception paper bag paper is in the natural unbleached color-and often a brown dye is added to uniform batch to batch production.)

Mechanical pulping, ie groundwood pulping, literally grinds the fiber and lignan in chunks. It is similar to having a brickwall (simulating fiber and lignan) with brick (the fiber) and the mortor (the lignan, or bonding agent). If you took a big grinding wheel and ground down a brick wall, or took sledge hammer to a brick wall, you'd come up with chunks of brick and mortar. Lignan (or "mortar") does nothing for strength (and requires the need of starch and long softwood kraft fiber to hold the sheet together. Ground wood fiber is usually the cheapest pulp to produce.

"Fine paper" . by definition, does not contain any groundwood fiber (or actually I think the percentage is no more than 2-3%). This is also called "wood free" pulp or paper. So, you probably swerved into a term (wood fiber paper) that you didn't know about, and now are dreading the fact you even asked in the first place.

Directory paper (which is generally ligher weight and stronger newsprint) is used in phone books. It is largely "wood containing" (or, it contains groundwood-perhaps up to 40-65++% ground wood. It typically does not have sizing , which is why ink "bleeds" or "feathers" in newsprint. Because wood containing fibers /paper are generally not sized (or if so, only moderately-and this is happening more at high end groundwood paper mills to produce a product /sheet that the printer (the customer) likes for sharp images) using groundwood containg paper ("wood containing" fiber or paper) will wet out very quickly.

So, in general, paper is paper is paper, except when it is different.

Can I go now?

Bonus tidbit:

In case you start asking about paper currency. Our currency (USA dollars and higher) are printed on exceptionally high quality paper, and is sized very hard. It is made at ONLY ONE PAPER MILL IN THE WORLD (and it's in the US). It's made by Crane Paper in Western Massachusetts. Crane also makes fine writing paper, you've probably seen it with its water mark. The Crane Co. paper mill (in Dalton, Mass) is HEAVILY guarded with security (to prevent counterfitting). Any unused scrape of raw currency paper is accounted for. They mean business there. The blank rolls of paper is converted to cut sheet paper, and is then printed at the US Treasury building in D.C. The trucks carrying the unprinted paper (going to the US Treasury for printing) is closely watched. Don't even think about "truck jacking" a load of Crane Co. paper. If you are lucky, they will kill you quickly. No one will know though (just kidding)-but I'm not kidding about the high level of security at the manufacturing or transporting of the unprinted currency paper.

montana_charlie
08-15-2008, 11:15 PM
I'm doing some investigating. In my opinion, the best paper may NOT be tracing paper or onion skin.

LENS PAPER may be good, if I can find a source which is thick enough. Think about it, you don't want abrasives in lens paper to damage expensive optical lenses. You want it to be strong, and have some to minimal water resistance.

If you can't find a good source of lens paper, stick with .002-.003" tracing paper (to double wrap a bullet, to get ~ 0.08-0.010" total thickness/added diameter.

Yikes!...you forgot to tell us about '100% linen' paper, Professor.

One of the first results in a Google search for 'lens paper' yielded this...

Ross Optical Lens Tissue
Non-abrasive. Processed from 100% linen stock; free of mineral and vegetable filler. Does not lint or scratch and will not disintegrate under vigorous manipulation.

Ross Lens Tissue, 21.6 x 35.6cm (8-1/2 x 14")
Ross Lens Tissue, Large pkg/100 $17.00

Now to try to find out how thick it is...
CM

Piet
08-16-2008, 05:19 AM
Thank you for the explanation. What is the relationship between the weight of the paper and the gauge? I have read about 9 lb and 16lb etc. In Europe you see 80 grams/m2 or 60 grams/m2 etc.

catboat
08-16-2008, 08:59 AM
Linen paper:

Ok, another "dual definition word" in papermaking. This one is faster to explain.

"Linen", when meaning the CONTENT , or FIBER used in a sheet or grade of paper refers to the use of the flax plant as a fiber source.

"Linen" when referred to as a FINISH of a sheet of paper is an embossed texture which is rolled into the surface of the sheet, by mechanical means. It imparts a fine / delicate pattern or texture that has x and y directional threads (like a sheet) showing "warp" and "weft" (the x and y, or 90 degree directions of textile manufacturing such found using a loom. It's supposed to mimic the look of a woven sheet of fabric. A linen finish is just used for aesthetic, not functional, reasons.

I presume when you see "linen" referenced for lens paper, it refers to the CONTENT, not the finish. Flax plant fiber is a very strong fiber, making a very strong sheet. Could be great for paper patching, because of its strength (probably can be pulled tightly when damp for a good wrap. Flax plant, and flax seed is expensive, so the resultant paper made from it is pricey. Use of linen/flax fiber is for functional reasons (high strength applications).

That lens paper could be very interesting. I'm curious too, what the thickness is of it. Could be a great find.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Basis Weight

Paper is made in various weights, due to customer needs, or applications. You see paper listed as 16Lb , 20, 24lb, or 9 lb (and others). It is simple a weight per quantity of paper (actually weight per area). It is usually 3000-3200 square feet (depending on grade). This quantity is called a "ream."

The area of a standard ream of paper (3200 square feet) works out to be 500 sheets of 17" x 22". This is essentially 4 pieces of 8.5" x 11" paper laid flat, then having 500 layers. If you then weight that stack of 500 sheets, the weight (or basis weight) would be the "poundage" of 9 lb, 16 lb, 20 lb, 24 lb etc.

Heavier paper is usually thicker. Paper can have it's density altered by mechanical means. One way is to beat /refine the wet pulp so that the hollow fibers collapse. It has less bulk, or, higher density per pound. One example of this is tracing paper. The collapsed fibers have less opacity, and for tracing paper-as you want to be able to see through it, it is good for that application. The second way of altering bulk or density is by litterally squeezing the paper between two "nips" (contact area of two rolls) that are stacked on top of each other. This is called a calender press. The rolls are highly engineered to have heat (steam) applied, and also have alternating rolls of hard and "softer" rolls to have more contact area in the nip (to squish the paper, and also to slightly polish or "burnish" the paper for increase gloss. This paper is called "super calendared paper" or "SC" paper in the trade. An example of this is the paper used to print Rolling Stone magazine. It looks sort of like coated paper, as it has gloss. SC paper would be a poor choice for paper patching, as it is highly filled with inorganic materials (calcium carbonate, and possible some clay or tios) to the level of 25%+++. It would be abrasive, or a "polisher" for sure.

Europeans simply express the weight of paper per area in metric terms, in grams per square meter (or sometimes expressed as "gsm").

calaloo
08-16-2008, 09:40 AM
Catboat:

As a retired paper mill instrument technician I really enjoyed your posts. They brought back old times. Thanks for an excellent study of paper making.

Bill

montana_charlie
08-16-2008, 01:29 PM
That lens paper could be very interesting. I'm curious too, what the thickness is of it. Could be a great find.
This webpage has contact information for Ross.
http://www.photonics.com/directory/viewprofile.asp?companyID=12905&plac (http://www.photonics.com/directory/viewprofile.asp?companyID=12905&placement=bglistadv&advertiser=yes&coid=R87500&divid=000&codivid=R87500000&refcat=41790)
ement=bglistadv&advertiser=yes&coid=R87500&divid=000&codivid=R87500000& (http://www.photonics.com/directory/viewprofile.asp?companyID=12905&placement=bglistadv&advertiser=yes&coid=R87500&divid=000&codivid=R87500000&refcat=41790)
refcat=41790 (http://www.photonics.com/directory/viewprofile.asp?companyID=12905&placement=bglistadv&advertiser=yes&coid=R87500&divid=000&codivid=R87500000&refcat=41790)

I have emailed them with a query about 'thickness'.
CM

Southern Son
08-17-2008, 12:42 AM
Catboat, thanks for this posting, you say that directory paper is mostly wood pulp, is there much clay or other abrasives? I think that it "wetting out" quickly won't be too great a problem when rolling it onto a boolit. I was thinking of using paper from an old phone book untill someone put forward that there is some type of acid in it. Is there anything it phone book paper that will make my rifle barrel unhappy?

dromia
08-17-2008, 03:38 AM
Methinks this is worth making a sticky.

Many Thanks for the education Catboat.

I spent some time with hand made paper makers in Japan when I was into kitemaking. That was fascinating and hard graft.

catboat
08-17-2008, 10:22 AM
"...directory paper is mostly wood pulp, is there much clay or other abrasives? "
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Directory ("phone book") paper is low ash (inorganic filler content). Depending on the manufacturer, it's probably in the 5+% range. Directory paper isn't sized, so it wets out fast. It is also a relatively weak paper, due to a high groundwood content (bits of brick and mortar/ chunks of fiber and lignan, which provides BULK and COMPRESSABILITY for the printer, not strength).

If it works for you, then great.

Remember, when Sharps paper patched their bullets in the 1880's, the paper they used didn't have much, if any filler. Fibers were long and strong , no ground wood. The paper was likely low-medium sized (likely with alum /rosin on an acidic process), if sized at all. Not sure, but a guess.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Tidbit: Is paper really abrasive?

Just before the dried paper gets rolled up on the reel on a paper machine (the last part of the paper machine), each edge of the sheet is trimmed a few inches to get the proper width sheet. The trimming is done with a thin sharpened steel "slitter", which is circular (6" or so). It looks like a rolling pizza slicer. The slitterspins, and makes the cut. Modern (fast) paper machines use a fine jet of high pressure air to to it now, so as to not have to replace circular steel slitters (cost and efficiency issues for production).

The steel slitters are replaced on a regular basis, due to the sheet of paper (and ash) dulling the slitters-resulting in poor edges, or worse, sheet breaks. Modern paper machines make paper at well over 3000-4000 feet per minute. A paper patched bullet travels down the bore at 1500-2500 feet per SECOND. Does anyone doubt that paper and high ash content is not abrasive to the bore? It may be called "polishing" or a degree of "fire lapping," but it's still a factor.

leftiye
08-17-2008, 03:29 PM
So what are the paper characteristics that we need for paper patching? I originally wanted to ask about a paper with mostly long fiber pulp content, as to whether it would be strong enough and etc. Then the questions about linen and lens paper arose.

My feeling leans toward a tough (strong) flexible paper that will resist cutting (somewhat- must "confetti" at the muzzle) by the rifling, and that will stretch some so it will wrap tightly, and that also will stick to itself (hopefully without glue being added). Is there anything like that?

Lately, I've been taking thinner papers (maybe even cigarette papers) more seriously because my Marlin/NEF barrel's grooves are only 2.5 thous deep. Does that sound like the right direction to go to y'all? The lens paper that CM mentioned sounds exciting to me too!

Glad to see this is a sticky. Some of the best info so far on patching material. Should get even better as we look at specific papers and specific paper characteristics.

montana_charlie
08-17-2008, 10:00 PM
Been wearing out my Google button looking at information on 'paper'.
One thing that doesn't surprise me, but still gripes my butt...

Among BPCR shooters, a very popular type of patching paper would be described as, "Onion Skin Paper 25% Cotton 9 lb. White 8.5 x 11"

A well-known BPCR supplier selling paper with that description gets Ten Dollars for 100 sheets and Forty-Four Dollars for 500 sheets.

The first online 'paper store' I found with paper matching the same description wants twenty-two bucks per 500-sheet ream.
http://www.thepapermillstore.com/product.php?productid=9304

CM

Southern Son
08-17-2008, 10:32 PM
Catboat, thanks for your reply, I am glad to see this is a sticky cause I think that there is a hell of alot of information in here to digest.

P.S. Thanks for that link Montana Charlie, I could not believe the price of the 25% stuff, either, then you have to add shipping.

waksupi
08-18-2008, 08:08 AM
Charlie, if you think that odd, try this. Go into a Walmart. Look at the price of a watch battery in the jewelry department, and then go look at the same battery in the electronics department. You have to be a careful shopper, even in the same store!

montana_charlie
08-18-2008, 01:32 PM
You find the same 100% markup when looking at ceramic media...or anything else that is commonly used elsewhere, but has found a niche in BPCR.
CM

Southern Son
08-19-2008, 02:40 AM
Montana, mate, I don't know if it is the same stuff that you were talking about, but I just found some "Lens Tissue" on the computer desk in front of me (I am stuffed if i know how it got here). When folded to 4 thicknesses, it goes .0035-.0040 thick. It is very smooth, but quite tough, did not tear easily at all. When it did tear, it tore along the grain, very straight and with a few long fibres that seemed to hang on longer than the rest. The only problem with this stuff is that each sheet measures 4 inches by 3 inches, maybe 2 patches per sheet?

yondering
08-19-2008, 12:09 PM
We have a similar lens tissue at work that we use for cleaning our safety glasses. It's strong, about .001" thick, and wets well, but the problem is that it has soap in it and won't stick to itself when rolled on a boolit. The same paper without the soap might be perfect.
Catboat, this paper is almost completely transparent when wet, and looks like onion skin when dry. Does this mean it doesn't have much sizing or other fillers in it? Do you know of a source for this stuff without the lens cleaning soap?

montana_charlie
08-19-2008, 02:12 PM
I am still waiting to hear from Ross about the thickness of their lens paper. Unfortunately, I expect them to say it runs about .001", when .002" would satisfy me in two wraps (I think).

But, I discovered something by accident that might interest you.

I found a sale on eBay for some paper that interests me, but the seller doesn't own a micrometer. So, she has no way to measure the thickness of one sheet.
But, in our discussion, she mentioned that the ream is one inch thick.

When you divide 1 inch by 500 sheets, you find that a single sheet must be .002" (gasp!).
If you're looking for .0025" paper, that would be the same as a ream that is 1.25 inches thick.

Even a poorly made ruler will measure well enough for decent precision, when any error is reduced 500 times.

CM

Molly
08-19-2008, 04:42 PM
This is just a speculative question born out om my vast ignorance on the topic, but I note the apparently common availability of some rather strong grades of paper that wet well without seriously losing strength. (I'm assuming that these are both real cellulosic paper rather than felts with polyester or acrylic fibers.) They would also seem to be substantially free of abrasive pigments and other materials that could cause problems, and seem to be available in at least a couple of different thicknesses.
I'm referring to
a) Tea bag paper, and
b) Coffee filter paper.
Could someone comment on the desireability of something like these for PP material? Has anyone tried them? (I haven't). How would one go about finding usable quantities of them, in a usable form?

Molly

yondering
08-19-2008, 07:39 PM
This is just a speculative question born out om my vast ignorance on the topic, but I note the apparently common availability of some rather strong grades of paper that wet well without seriously losing strength. (I'm assuming that these are both real cellulosic paper rather than felts with polyester or acrylic fibers.) They would also seem to be substantially free of abrasive pigments and other materials that could cause problems, and seem to be available in at least a couple of different thicknesses.
I'm referring to
a) Tea bag paper, and
b) Coffee filter paper.
Could someone comment on the desireability of something like these for PP material? Has anyone tried them? (I haven't). How would one go about finding usable quantities of them, in a usable form?

Molly

Hmm. I'm on my way down to raid the coffee machine, and will hopefully have a report for you soon. [smilie=1:

catboat
08-19-2008, 08:58 PM
You guys are really thinking. I can't say I'm impressed, because I know there are many sharp minds on this board. I guess I can report, I'm happy people are thinking about this application.

1)
Comment: "...this paper is almost completely transparent when wet, and looks like onion skin when dry. Does this mean it doesn't have much sizing or other fillers in it? Do you know of a source for this stuff without the lens cleaning soap? "

My view: If it is near transparent when DRY would indicate lower opacity. This can be from either light basis weight, or low filler/ash content. When wetted, the scattering ability of fiber is significantly reduces, so opacity goes does (can anyone say "wet tee shirt contest?" - have to keep this in practical terms). Sizing doesn't really have an major impact on opacity, but I would suspect, that surface sizing + surface starch would slightly reduce opacity (as it hampers the scattering coeficient of the fiber, or "makes them smoother") Even an ash filled sheet of medium to high levels will have lower opacity when wetted.

There are some "chemicals" used in some paper process applications that are designed to be "rewetting agents/aids." Theya re adding to help the fiber get wet faster. Interestingly enough, most of these "rewetting agents" are surfactants, which lower surface tension. In general terms, surfactants are soaps. Your soaped lens paper should wet out nicely. Due to the lower surface tension, it is interfering with the fiber bonding (which is why it is used, to make the fibers able to absorb water. This is reversing the hydrogen bonding that normal cellulosic fibers (and the addition of internal wet end (cationic, or positively charged) starch is added- to generate BETTER hydrogen bonding between fibers, and then MORE strength. You just swerved into the "anti-strength" wetting agent. It was the exactly the SAME thing discussed early, just the complete opposite response-but the same concept: hydrogen bonding (maximizing it vs minimizing it).

I don't know of a source of Lens paper with or without soap-just keep looking, and asking vendors.supplkiers.distributors, and looking in the products "ingredients" list. At least you know what look for, and avoid it. Really good question.

2) comment:
" a) Tea bag paper, and
b) Coffee filter paper.
Could someone comment on the desireability of something like these for PP material?"

My input: Excellent question. Both tea bag and coffee filter are good examples of non-writing paper. They are designed to be strong when wet, and be porous (so water flows through them). Just apply what I've touched on in the first post.

They are both strong, due to using long softwood kraft fibers, and minimal about of short fiber. They don't want a smooth surface for writing and printing, and don't mind "poor formation", as it increases pass through/porosity (and yes for you tech heads, there are two measurements of porosity, so that "more porosity" could mean a "tighter" or the opposite "more open" sheet: Scheffield and Gurley units. By mentioning "more porosity" I mean "more air/liquid pass through.")

Anyway, the strength you are seeing isn't "sizing," it is "wet strength." A wet-strength resion is added, and gets cured in the heated dryer section of the paper machine. It's why paper towels are strong when wet (remember the comment about "Rosie's Diner and Bounty paper towels?)

Coffee filter could be and EXCELLENT paper patching material. One paper mill customer I had used to buy up truckloads of the leftover coffee filter paper (after the circular filters were cut out. We used to joke that they were buying "paper holes."). The mill used them as a cheap replacement for the expensive long softwood kraft fiber. Due to the wet strength resin in them, they were difficult to repulp. The pH had to be increased to moderate to high alkaline pH (can't remember, but maybe ~ pH 9 ish?), and then they had to be process in a special high-energy pulper called a "Barracuda" (like a big blender). Because the coffee filters are wet-strength paper, and not "sized" paper, they may wet out and wrap well. You'll have to try it and report back. If you are having trouble wetting them out, try the hot water and baking soda mixture. This will increase the pH, and help soften the wet strength. No fillers are used. I really like this idea. I never thought of it. Thanks for sharing. Could be another winner. I don't know the source. The paper mill that used to use the "paper holes" shut down (Eastern Fine Paper, in Brewer, ME).

Tea bags are similar. High strength, long fiber, wet strength resin, no filler, not sized. They may work, but tough to get a source of non-converted tea bag paper, like coffee filters.

Since these papers have high degree of wet-strength resins in them, they will be likely difficult to have achesion in the wrapping/drying stage. Coffee filter paper may be too thick. Do some caliper measurements.

BrentD
08-19-2008, 10:20 PM
catboat,
This has all been really interesting. But can I would like to ask a different question.

I'm interested finding some target paper. Paper that would be manilla or white in color and which would have some thickness but produce really nice holes. Some targets like Edelman pellet targets are excellent, but where can one find paper like this? I think it must be very short-fibered paper.

Thanks,
Brent

catboat
08-19-2008, 10:45 PM
BrentD

The closest grade of paper to "target paper" would be "construction paper" ( and would be the lowest cost), and "blotter paper", for replacing desk blotter covering. Blotter paper is likely more expensive than construction paper.

Target paper is indeed short fibered paper. It does have some long fibered softwood kraft to give it some structure and strength so it can be manufactured and used. (a sheet of pure short fiber is mush, and can stand on it's own.).

Think about it. What property does the papermaker want for target paper?

--Sharp holes
--some printability
--some strenth (for production efficiency-so the machine doesn't always break, and "hangabilty" + stiffness for the customer/shooter.

That's what the product development group decides to invent this new grade for this "new" application of paper.

They then formulate a furnish (fiber mix) to accomplish this.
Sharp holes: need short fiber. Groudwood is short fiber. It Is bulky, and cheap, but weak. Add a good portion of this fiber.

Some printabilty: targets will have black/red/green ink for printing scoring rings, and target information. You'll need some sizing. Groundwood can't be made on alkaline pH (brightness reverison), so it made on acid pH or neutral pH systems. If acid system used, the sizing used is alum rosin. They test to determine how much sizing/sharpness is needed for the applicaiton. Dosages of alum and rosin are adjusted to get the needed sizing.

Strength and hangability: the papermachine isn't going to make the owners any money if it doesn't run efficiently, without breaks. The paper needs to have some strength-strong enough to hold to gether on the target hangers, but not too strong. We want the bullet holes to form easier and crisply. "Use as little long fibered softwood Kraft as possible" is the order from management. (it's the most expensive fiber.).

Stiffness can be achieved by having a thick sheet. We need bulk. Groundwood fiber is bulky. Course grind the groundwood, add a lot of it to the sheet to get a certain thickness. Groundwood is cheap. Don't bleach it, (more cost), keep it natural. May have to add a touch of biege dye to uniform tint from batch to batch over the years for consistency.

In short, it is "just" thick, and MUCH weaker, newsprint.

Make the paper. Shoot holes in it.

It should be noted that due to these fiber properties, the application is for clean holes (weak sheet). The paper is poor for folding (too thick, the outer side of the sheet has too far to move, and stresses. With the short fiber, it cracks easily. The paper is poor for paper patching (too thick, too weak, too much short weak fiber-groundwood, and not enough long strong softwood kraft.) In some ways, it is the direct opposite of lens paper, if you thick about the fiber properties, and how the paper is designed to perform.

Viola. You just brokedown the papermaker's thought process for designing a sheet of paper for a certain "new" application. The machine gets a couple of extra days of production per year, which helps depreciation of equipment, and fixed costs, and keeps the paper mill from shutting down. As a result, you get a nice year end bonus from management-they let you keep your job!

That's exactly how its done. You essentially did the product development yourself with the info given earlier. You get an "A" for paying attention in class. Well done.
---------------

Manilla paper (folders) is designed to be strong, and durable. It has a high level of long fiber.

Liner board (like shirt/shoe/cold cereal/granola bar box material) may be your next best bet. This is much stronger than target paper (it is many thickness thick, as it is made on an entirely different beast of a paper machine, called a "cylinder machine"). Liner board paper is made essentially with a much junk paper as the papermaker can get his/her hands on. Old news print (onp), old corrugated containers (OCC). It has a fiber mix that is both long , short and medium. Perhaps you can scrounge up some liner board from your local transfer station/"dump", and made an ink stamp of your desired target aiming point to stamp on the insides of all those consumer packaged goods boxed in liner board you see in the grocery store. Linerboard would make a good target material

BrentD
08-19-2008, 10:48 PM
Thanks for the grade, but where can I BUY the stuff? 90% of the problem with paper for anything special is sourcing the stuff.

Brent

montana_charlie
08-19-2008, 11:18 PM
I don't know if anything will come of it but, I just requested a sample of tea filter paper from ZHEJIANG KAN SPECIALITIES MATERIAL Co., LTD.
I tried to type politely, clearly, and slowly, so that I would be understood.
CM

leftiye
08-19-2008, 11:36 PM
I'm gonna iron out some coffee filters! Big ones.

catboat
08-19-2008, 11:52 PM
"Thanks for the grade, but where can I BUY the stuff? 90% of the problem with paper for anything special is sourcing the stuff.

Brent"
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Don't know. Never ran into a mill that made it. It's not a grade that is made that often, or in great quantity. Probably only made seasonally, and on small machines. Sorry, no sources known for non-printed target paper.

One more thought. The type of paper kids use, "contruction paper" is similar to target paper (not that strong, and feels bulky (probably has groundwood in it for decently sharp bullet holes). Go to your nearest Wall-of-china-mart, or dollar store and stock up on it. Maybe that's the way to go. It's not as heavy as target paper, but it's pretty heavy. It probably has more longer fiber than true target paper, but should do ok.

I've read that lead bullets fired from guns can penetrate just about most kinds of paper, so you'll probably get a bullet hole in anything you use. :-)

Man, I'm spending too much time on this site.

Idaho Sharpshooter
08-20-2008, 12:34 AM
Specific Paper Question: my brother and I each bought a ream of Fidelity brand Onion Skin paper last year at Quigley. It is stamped Sub. 9-cockle 34g/m (2 as in squared) 100% Cotton Content. The 500 sheets mike about an inch and a sixteenth thick. My brother has begun making PP bullets with a Kaqlynuik mould for his 50-90 Shiloh. I hate to start if this paper or a same thickness replacement cannot be found.
It is Esleeck, made byEsleeck Mfg, Turner Falls, MA.
Rich

catboat
08-20-2008, 08:44 AM
Specific Paper Question: my brother and I each bought a ream of Fidelity brand Onion Skin paper last year at Quigley. It is stamped Sub. 9-cockle 34g/m (2 as in squared) 100% Cotton Content. The 500 sheets mike about an inch and a sixteenth thick. My brother has begun making PP bullets with a Kaqlynuik mould for his 50-90 Shiloh. I hate to start if this paper or a same thickness replacement cannot be found.
It is Esleeck, made byEsleeck Mfg, Turner Falls, MA.
Rich



What's the question?

If it works, and you like it, buy more. If you know where is it made (I used to call on the Esleeck mill-they make excellent paper), call them if you can't find any locally. If they don't sell it to you (they like to sell pallets/truckloads of the stuff), they can get you in contact with one of their distributors.

yondering
08-20-2008, 12:59 PM
coffee filter paper -

I found two types at work yesterday: a folded funnel shaped filter, and a bowl shape with ruffled sides. The funnel shaped paper is about .0045" thick, but the bowl shaped paper is only .003" thick. Both wetted very easily, and were strong when wet. I patched a bullet with each, and was able to twist the tails very tightly.
Only problem was this paper doesn't seem to stick to itself well. It's ok, and isn't peeling apart, but it doesn't seem ideal. Also, now that they've dried overnight, I can hold the tails and spin the bullet in the paper. Of course, that could just be my poor wrapping technique, I don't know.

Molly
08-20-2008, 01:26 PM
coffee filter paper -

> I found two types at work yesterday: a folded funnel shaped filter, and a bowl shape with ruffled sides. The funnel shaped paper is about .0045" thick, but the bowl shaped paper is only .003" thick. Both wetted very easily, and were strong when wet. I patched a bullet with each, and was able to twist the tails very tightly.

That's kind of neat. Thanks for the feedback.

> Only problem was this paper doesn't seem to stick to itself well. It's ok, and isn't peeling apart, but it doesn't seem ideal. Also, now that they've dried overnight, I can hold the tails and spin the bullet in the paper. Of course, that could just be my poor wrapping technique, I don't know.

Not too sure what's going on here, but how do you apply the PP?

If you put them on by hand, I can see where technique could be a problem, but if you're using a cigarette roller as I first recommended, technique shouldn't enter into it. Also, the old fashioned roller allowed you to 'adjust' the tightness of the wrap by how snug the rubberized sheet is - which could be varied easily by just pressing on the slack side as you flip the lever. I don't know about the two roller type - I haven't used them.

If that doesn't do the job, I think I'd try adding just a TINY pinch of flour to the patch water to make a very dilute library paste. The dried patch should stick well to itself, but the paste (dried) would be very brittle, and would still cut into strips for easy release at the muzzle. Worth trying anyhow.

Good Luck,

Molly

yondering
08-20-2008, 05:50 PM
Puttin them on by hand Molly. Just haven't got around to the cigarrette roller yet.

BrentD
08-20-2008, 09:34 PM
Catboat, yeah, lead will penetrate paper. Pretty often anyway. But getting good clean holes is another issue. If you score a lot of targets or compete, you will find a lot of utility in good target paper.

For patching another paper that I have used with good results is cooking parchment. It is very tough, does not take on much water and is slick as hell (probably silicone treated). For sure it works, but it does not like to roll easily. Or rather, it unrolls very easily. But if you practice with it, it will work very well and is water resistant (good for hunting) and slick in your bore.

Brent

leftiye
08-21-2008, 01:03 PM
Is there gonna be a problem with the thickness of coffee filter paper? Sunds like it would absorb LLA real good. Will it size down to a much thinner thickness?

Molly
08-21-2008, 01:28 PM
Is there gonna be a problem with the thickness of coffee filter paper? Sunds like it would absorb LLA real good. Will it size down to a much thinner thickness?

Leftiye,

I have been preocupied dealing with other problems in the family (wife's illness), and simply haven't had a chance to try it, BUT - I can't recall hearing of ANY PP that wouldn't size down considerably. Might need to apply a little lube by hand so it'll start in the sizer without tearing, but I doubt it.

Anyone out there had a chance to actually test these yet?

Molly

Molly
08-21-2008, 01:32 PM
For patching another paper that I have used with good results is cooking parchment. It is very tough, does not take on much water and is slick as hell (probably silicone treated). For sure it works, but it does not like to roll easily. Or rather, it unrolls very easily. But if you practice with it, it will work very well and is water resistant (good for hunting) and slick in your bore.
Brent

Hey Brent,

I think I'd try the mold degreasing trick on that paper: Just get a pan of water boiling, add a squirt of dish detergent and a goodly sheet of paper. Let it boil for a minute, take it of fthe stove and add cold water until you can stand to pull the paper out and lay it flat to dry (preferably under pressure, so it won't wrinkle). This will degrease bullet molds like you wouldn't believe, and will probably work just as well on the paper. Problem is, it MIGHT disintigrate the paper too - But it wouldn't be hard to find out.

Molly

BrentD
08-21-2008, 11:06 PM
Molly,
I wouldn't want to degrease it. I am skeptical that would work anyway. Remember this is for cooking so it's made to be hot. Anyway, give it ago sometime, esp if you are worried about barrel wear with paper patching. Tough stuff. Really tough.

Brent

joeb33050
08-22-2008, 07:58 AM
Molly suggested that this thread should be included in the book. I know nothing of paper patching, so If Molly says so, I must agree.
So, I need permission from you posters, especially catboat, to use what you have written. If you're willing, please post here or as a PM. or to joeb33050@yahoo.com.
Thanks;
joe b.

BrentD
08-22-2008, 08:07 AM
As for me - NO

Molly
08-22-2008, 09:33 AM
Molly,
I wouldn't want to degrease it. I am skeptical that would work anyway. Remember this is for cooking so it's made to be hot. Anyway, give it ago sometime, esp if you are worried about barrel wear with paper patching. Tough stuff. Really tough.

Brent

Hi Brent,

My suggestion was from your comment that it was slick and stiff, hard to wrap. I thought that the boiling treatment might correct that. That's all.
Molly

BrentD
08-22-2008, 09:43 AM
Molly, yes I think it might make it a bit easier in that regard. I thought you were refering to getting the silicone slipperiness out of it. Maybe just some hot tap water would work. Never thought of using heat until catboat suggested it.

A couple of nights ago, I tried hot water on some Beinfang paper that is also a little hard to wrap and it did not seem to help a whole lot. Did not hurt either.

I'll try some heat on parchment and see if it does get easier.

Brent

catboat
08-22-2008, 10:34 PM
Water will tend to weaken the sheet of paper (any cellulosic paper). Water (H20) adds hydrogen to the "dried " hydrogen bonded cellulose fibers, and weakens it. If you soak or boil (speeds reaction), you may have a bowl full of fiber, and not a sheet of paper.

There is a difference between "wet strength" of a paper (caused by chemical means, using wet strength resions-used to be urea formaldehyde/"UF", and melaminec formaldehyde/ "MF"), and "dry strength" (caused by long fibers, and internal starch for enhanced bonding.) Then, there is "paper sizing" (internal and surface sizing"), which is a chemical means to has some water RESISTANCE of fibers (for sharp printing, and minimizine "feathering") . They sound similar, but they are different. A sheet with wet strength resin (and no internal sizing), will fail the "tongue lick" test (how fast the water travels from one side of the sheet, to show up wet on the other side of the sheet). But the wet strength treated sheet will hold together better when wet (because the formed bonds with the fibers are not hydrogen bonds-which weaken with added water). SIZED paper (internal and external sizing) will have better "tongue lick test" (not a technical term. The technical term is "Hercules Size Test" and reported in seconds, ie "HST=45 seconds"), but the paper will be very weak in short order, as the added water work on the hydrogen bonds between the fiber, and you no have an easily torn sheet.

A sheet of paper, with wet strength, (i.e., paper towel, and perhaps parchment-I'm not sure what's in parchment paper) will wet out a bit, but not weaken. This is the name, "wet strength." It retains a certain level of it's original dry strength, when it is wetted. I don't remember the actual test, or test standard for this. I think there was some % of the original dry strength: wet strength at a certain condition (i.e., time, temp, pH, etc).

Another good idea, though, with thinking about parchment paper. It certainly is a strong paper, and without much inorganic filler.

What you may be able to do to the parchment, is wet it out (soak it a bit) in warm water which has a certain amount of cooked starch (and perhaps a little egg white/protein added to it. The cooked starch/egg white may provide some bonding between the sheets of parchment when wrapped.

Someone may have mentioned this earlier-or something close.

If you are using cooked starch, for a binder, any will do ok-but try "root starches." There are two types of starch: cereal and root starches. Cereal starches grow above the ground (corn, wheat). Root starches grow in the ground (potato, tapioca, arrowroot). "Wondra" starch (the stuff that comes in the cylindrical tube for making gravy, is arrowroot starch.

Root (or "tuber" starches, same thing) are exceptionally clean starches (no fats or oil), and as a result of no oil, they have lower cooking temperatures. I used to work for a potato starch company (AVEBE, Dutch based). I used to joke with customers how clean potato starch was (no strength reducing lipids), by saying "you can go to the super market and buy corn oil. You can't buy potato oil-because there isn't any in a potato to be extracted."

If you really want to get good starch, write to some of the larger starch companies and ask for a sample of cationic wet end starch for a paper machine. Cationic, means it is positively charged. The positive charge will be like a magnet, and bond to the negative paper fibers with good retention. "Regular" cooking starch (corn, "flour", even Wondra arrowroot starch), are non-charged. As a result, they have very little ionic (charged-based) driving force to attach to a paper fiber.

If you add "regular" non charged starch (but cooked out, not added "dry"), you will get some bonding-and it should be enough to simply hold two layers of paper together for this application of paper patching.

How much starch to add? It's not critical. Add the starch powder to cool water, then heat it (don't add starch to hot water, as it will have a tendency to "cook"/swell too fast, and make hard to dissolve "fish eyes" (clear lumps). Something like a teaspoon of dry starch to a cup of cool water will put you in the ball park. Two teaspoons won't hurt-just make things a little thicker. Stir while cooking (you are essentially making clear gravy). You don't have to boil it (212'F). You can fully cook out starch at something like 180'F, in about 10 minutes, with occasional stirring.

You can then take this cooked starch, and add some to your wetting/soaking bath for the parchment (or onion skin). Perhaps an ounce or two for a cup or cup and a half of warm soaking water. Just mix (or shake) them so you get good mixing. Dosage isn't critical, so play with it. The only drawback you'll see is that the soaking bath will get thicker with added cooked starch, as it cools (this is called "retrogradation." This is when the starch molecules are slowing down, and realigning themselves. It ultimately forms an irreversible gel if the concentrations are "right" (or "wrong".) This isn't going to hurt anything, but in case you experience it, this is what happened. You'll probably see it in you cooked starch container as it cools, as that is the highest solids/concentration of cooling cooked starch. Corn starch (and cereal starches) retrograde. Root starches do not.

You can add the egg white into the soak bath (with or without the cooked starch). How much? Not critical. Since eggs don't "save well" after opened, hell, add the whole egg white in a cup and a half of warm water, and mix. Then add the cooked corn/Wondra/flour starch to the mixture. (doesn't matter the order, egg-starch or starch-egg). Hope that concoction holds together.

To safe time, It would probably just be easier to buy a bag of wall paper paste, and just at some of that for your warm paper soaking bath. I think, that's what I'd do. It's a true paste. But whatever you want to do...

As always, try it, and see what happens. Sounds like an interesting little project to do on a quiet rainy day.

catboat
08-22-2008, 10:46 PM
Here is an excellent on-line (and free) source for paper making concepts in the field of "wet end chemistry." Wet end chemistry refers to the "wet end" of the paper machine, and the interaction of the various additives used there.

I used it a fair amount in my training classes to my colleagues.

http://www4.ncsu.edu/~hubbe/MiniEncy.htm

Molly
08-23-2008, 12:13 PM
Fellows, I'd like to ask a favor: Joe B. asked for permission to quote this thread in his Cast Bullets book a few messages back. I haven't seen but one response, which was "NO". Even that isn't clear: Does it mean "No, I don't mind being quoted" or does it mean "No, I don't want to be quoted."?

Lemme give him a plug here. For those who don't know, the book is a NON PROFIT enterprise detailing cast bullet technology and techniques be something like two hundred authors and counting. You can download it for free, or you can order it on a disc for $5, delivered. There's also a hardbound version. Joe just handles the editing and making sure that anyone that wants one can get it.

Joe keeps the highest standards in his work. Legally, this forum is public, and anything posted here is in the public domain. Joe doesn't even have to ask. But the fact that he asks anyhow illustrates the integrity with which he handles all his work. In editing, Joe will delete any comments from anyone that doesn't want to be quoted. For those who don't mind, he'll also quote by moniker name, or by real name, your choice. He can also attribute comments to "Anon."

I'd really appreciate some sort of consensus for this. Joe's trying to be a good guy, but he wants permission. If anyone doesn't want to be included, a PM is all it will take. All Joe's doing is sharing tips and techniques, the same thing we do here with every reply we make. This thread offers a great deal of information about the hows and whys of paper selection, and I think it would make a great contribution to the book. I've sure learned a lot, and I'm sure it will be interesting for others too.

Regards,
Molly

yondering
08-23-2008, 01:24 PM
I'm not sure I've contributed anything of value here, but I don't mind anything I post here being quoted, in a book or otherwise. It is a public forum, as you said. :drinks:

montana_charlie
08-23-2008, 03:51 PM
I haven't seen but one response, which was "NO". Even that isn't clear: Does it mean "No, I don't mind being quoted" or does it mean "No, I don't want to be quoted."?
Well, to quote Joe, "If you're willing, please post here or as a PM."

BrentD's immediately following reply was 'no', and it was capitalized...which seems to indicate he is not willing.

For myself, you may use anything you wish...but it would be inaccurate to portray it as 'expert testimony'.
CM

Molly
08-23-2008, 08:55 PM
Well, to quote Joe, "If you're willing, please post here or as a PM."

BrentD's immediately following reply was 'no', and it was capitalized...which seems to indicate he is not willing.

For myself, you may use anything you wish...but it would be inaccurate to portray it as 'expert testimony'.
CM

Thanks for that consent Charlie, and yes, I got that distinct impression too. But you know what they say about assuming. And there will be no portrayal of anyone as expert. The pattern used heretofore has been to use simple quotes, and to let the contributor's skill speak fo itself. There are no guarantees for the data, and thus no liabilities. It's just guys like us talking about what the've seen and wondered and tried.

Molly

catboat
08-23-2008, 10:08 PM
JoeB emailed me, and I replied to him this morning, giving him my consent to use this thread (at least my comments) for the book/e-book/cd/posting in question.

ktw
08-23-2008, 10:23 PM
I'm interested finding some target paper. Paper that would be manilla or white in color and which would have some thickness but produce really nice holes. Some targets like Edelman pellet targets are excellent, but where can one find paper like this? I think it must be very short-fibered paper.

Two suggestions...

1) Back when we used to send people to the field to collect data on paper we had the plot cards printed on "card stock". This was a heavier, thicker sheet of paper that stood up well to a fair amount of abuse (the information/data was valuable). Any printer should know what "card stock" is. This is similar to the 3x5 index cards, but in 8.5x11 sheets.

2) I have occasionally been using the extra heavy duty, molded paper plates for targets. This is more of a thin cardboard than a paper. They stand up well and cut clean holes but their 3 dimensional structure doesn't offer much in the way of easily filing them away later. Some of the cheaper, thin cardboards may offer what you are looking for.

-ktw

Southern Son
08-24-2008, 03:03 AM
All I do for targets is print them out (or photocopy them) on normal paper, then glue them to old bits of cardboard (old boxes, the back of leagal pads, whatever). Gives a reasonably clean hole when anything from BP 45/70 to 4000fps+ 22/250Imp hits it, and I get it from work for nothing.

Molly
09-11-2008, 12:51 AM
Fellows,

I've been employed in a cleaning facility, where 'dirt' (ANY particulates) was monitored with great stringency. We used a special grade of an incredibly tough, lint free paper instead of rag wipers. I happened to have a few sheets of it in my car when the need to wipe up some beverage occurred. While I'd been aware of their strength before, the fact that they didn't lose much strength - if any - to moisture suddenly suggested that it might be the ultimate PP material. I'll try to find sources and ID info, but wanted to alert you to check out lint-free papers if you are interested in following this up.

montana_charlie
09-12-2008, 05:07 PM
I am still waiting to hear from Ross about the thickness of their lens paper. Unfortunately, I expect them to say it runs about .001", when .002" would satisfy me in two wraps (I think).
After a couple of false starts, Ross did finally send me a sample of their lens paper.
As it turns out, it measures .002" when using my dial caliper.
Comparing it to 9-pound onionskin, they are very similar in thickness.

The onionskin is 'harder' and 'slicker', while the lens paper has some 'texture' to it and (as expected) a softer 'feel'.
CM

shooter93
09-12-2008, 08:11 PM
Ross calls it .005mm which is 2 thou......ought to work and worth a try.

leftiye
09-13-2008, 01:16 AM
After reading Molly's post this morning, and CM's post just now, it struck me that I have been thinking that tougher, stretchier, more flexible papers were what I have been thinking I want. I suppose that resistance to cutting when engraving is necessary too, but these papers might do that also. What say yees, what qualities make a primo patching paper?

CM, If you were to make a few patches with that paper and shoot some boolits with them, please let us know how you like them. I am following this with great interest.

montana_charlie
09-13-2008, 01:40 PM
CM, If you were to make a few patches with that paper and shoot some boolits with them, please let us know how you like them. I am following this with great interest.
leftiye, are you willing to follow slowly?
You see, as stated elsewhere, I don't paper patch.

I have developed an interest in it, and I am collecting tools and materials...but I don't yet have a mould for a paper patch bullet.
I am still trying to decide what diameter I want to try first.

I have some leftovers from an abandoned journey into 'grooveless' bullets that depended on being 'dipped' to carry lube into the bore. They have smooth sides, somewhat similar to a paper patch design.
So, I have cut a few onionskin patches, and practiced some rolling, just to see what they looked like...and to get an idea of how much the paper increases diameter.
That information should be helpful in choosing a naked size.

But, if you want to wait till I shoot one...well...you might still be waiting come next spring.
CM

catboat
09-13-2008, 02:07 PM
After a couple of false starts, Ross did finally send me a sample of their lens paper.
As it turns out, it measures .002" when using my dial caliper.
Comparing it to 9-pound onionskin, they are very similar in thickness.

The onionskin is 'harder' and 'slicker', while the lens paper has some 'texture' to it and (as expected) a softer 'feel'.
CM
'
Montana Charlie,

I'm glad you got a sample of your desired paper. You make a very good observation about the onionskin and lens paper about the way they feel (hard, slick, texture).

Lens paper needs to be soft for the application. It is likely creped (pronounced CRAYpped , with a long "A" as in crayon). You have seen crepe paper for party decorations. Look at it , and it will be folded, or bunched togeter. This is done a a paper machine, mostly for tissue products (toilet tissue, napkins, nose tissues) so they are soft on our tushies and noses.

The continous sheet of paper is directed to a LARGE heated metal cylinder ("Yankee dryer") in the paper machine ( on tissue machines, not on machines making printing/writing grades). They vary in size, but can be more than 20 feet in diameter. The surface of the roll is continually coated with a cross linked polymer that acts as an adhesive (also called a "release coating"), which temporarily bonds the damp sheet of paper to the creping roll. The paper and creping roll on in contact for more than half of the roll (almost looks like the greek letter "omega".)

On the "outgoing" side of the creping roll, there is a long blade, the width of the machine. It is essentially a large putty knife. The "putty knife" blade, scrapes off the "stuck" paper from the creping roll. But, in the process, and by control, the paper "rams into the putty knife blade, and bunches up (crepes), THEN is released to enter the drying section of the machine. This creping process, softens the sheet (for our tushies).

If you take party-favor crepe paper, you can stretch it. This is because you are "debunching" the sheet.

A paper machine that makes writing paper, does not have a creping roll, so the sheet does not have this physical characteristic of "bunching" or "softening" , as is does not need it (a printer certainly does not want to write/print on creped paper-poor print results will follow). "Onionskin" is also subjected to a size press as one of the last steps in the papermaking process for this grade. A size press is essentially two rolls together (like the fashioned "washer/wringer washing machine" with a continually pumped stream of cooked size press starch ("gooey") and likely some surface sizing agent to assist in printing/ink sharpeness. A size press will made the sheet (at least the surface) feel stiffer, or "harder" as you observed. The added starch (internal and surface), plus the 25% "rag" or linen fibers give the "onionskin" sheet that "rattle" if you hold a single sheet by a corner or end, a shake it a bit. It IS harder than tissue paper. Great observation.

The creping process also breaks some fiber:fiber bonding, so the dried (final product) creped sheet will be a little weaker than if it were not creped.

It may be still plenty strong for this application of paper patching. It may also be good for rolling/patching, as you can stretch out the paper a bit in the process for a tight wrap (as the paper "de-crepes" in the paper patching process.).

If the lens paper doesn't dry tightly wrapped, it may be due to the sheet being creped relatively severly (to make it as soft as possible). Fiber:fiber bonds have been broken to a fairly great extent. One way to counter this would be to add a small amount of wall paper paste to the wetting solution. (or contact an industrial starch supplier, such as Cargill, Hercules/national starch, Carolina starch, Penford Products, Raisio, Western Polymer) ask for a small amount of cationic wet end starch (2-4 oz).

I have seen some lens paper than seems like it has not been creped-perhaps that should be compared /tested too.

FYI: "lint free" refers to the paper not having short fibers that can pull off and be left on a lens. This supports the fact that the paper is made from relative long fibers (as previously written about), whether they are soft wood kraft or linen/flax based.

Sounds like good paper. Please report back how it wraps , and shoots.

montana_charlie
09-13-2008, 10:34 PM
The onionskin is 'harder' and 'slicker', while the lens paper has some 'texture' to it and (as expected) a softer 'feel'.
CMMontana Charlie,

I'm glad you got a sample of your desired paper. You make a very good observation about the onionskin and lens paper about the way they feel (hard, slick, texture).

Lens paper needs to be soft for the application. It is likely creped.
Nope...it doesn't resembel the 'crinkliness' of crepe paper, at all.

Let me see if I can say it a different way, to give a more accurate understanding of the difference.

The onionskin is quite slick. But after being slightly dampened and rolled onto a bullet, it does seem to cling to itself a little...and is mildly resistant to unwanted unrolling. After drying, it has taken on a curled 'set' that makes it unwilling to unroll, even though it doesn't appear to be stuck to itself.
The surface of the two-layer wrap seems almost as hard as the soft lead bullet underneath.

The lens paper is (perhaps) not quite as stiff as the onionskin, but it is by no means 'limp'. The 'texture' and 'softness' I referred to is a quality of feel...rather than a flexibility of the paper.
It is somewhat like comparing grain leather to suede. Both can be equally 'stiff', but suede has a surface texture while the grain leather is 'slick'.
That isn't to say that lens paper is 'fuzzy'...but it has a slight 'velvet-ness' when rubbed.

And...in appearance, it kind of resembles very thin fiberglass mat because you can see the fibers.

I haven't tried it on a bullet, but I didn't get the impression (just handling the dry sheet) that it is particularly 'stretchy'...at least no more so than the onionskin (which can be stretched a bit while wet).

I managed to delete part of the email series I had with Ross Optical, but Divi Mangadu ( divi@rossoptical.com ) is the person who sent me the sample.
If my descriptions of the qualities of this paper make you (anybody) feel like trying it, I suggest you contact her to explore the question of how to obtain large quantities of it...and in larger sizes. I would like to know, myself.

The samples I received are little 4 by 6 sheets, which (I suspect) would result in a lot of being wasted when cutting it up for bullet patches. It would be nice to be able to get it in bigger sheets...or some kind of roll.

CM

catboat
09-13-2008, 11:50 PM
Montana Charlie,

I had to dig up my box of lens paper to investigate. It is called 1 ply extra-low wiper, made by alpenco (product number AL60). 300 sheets/box (5" x 8"). The address on the box is Pendergast Safety Equipment, Philadelphia, PA. It is ~.0021" to ~.0022" thick. Haven't patched with it yet. My best luck has been with some yellow art/tracing paper-but I'm always looking around for "something different." It keeps the neurons firing in the old brain crankcase.

The example of the party favor crepe paper is the extreme, which definitely shows the "bunched sheet" affect (so a person can visualize it). On tissue, creping is the fiber level, not at the macro "sheet" level (as they say in papermaking, "sheet happens"). Creping is a process to soften the sheet, by breaking bonds. It may or may not stretch at a macro level.

The onionskin likely holds it shape for a variety of reasons. One is that the surface is treated with surface starch. Upon wetting, wrapping, it comes in contact with the other surface of the paper. It (size presss, or surface starch) acts as a bonding agent to hold the to layers together. That's good.

The bottom line is that if the paper a person uses performs for them, then all is good. I came across some other paper that looks interesting. My wife received a package (clothes) in the mail the other day. It was wrapped in sheets of flat tissue/wrapping paper. I kept it aside to "play with". It's almost like tracing paper.

Good luck

big boar
10-04-2008, 09:03 AM
Can't thank you enough for all the info you've provided. I just got home from nightshift and was thinking all night about the abrasivness of different types of paper and who I could contact for info. (Just joined the forum last week) I've got Paul Mathews book 'the paper patch" and read it for the ?th time and still not enough info on paper. You should put all this info into a book, really. (no kidding) You have all the knowhow from a professional view. I have to print all your writings so I can re-read them again. Seriously, any chance you'd consider putting your vast knowledge into print? (Mathews, Venturino,Catbob?)BB

catboat
10-12-2008, 07:47 PM
Cut and pasted from another thread on the board. Keeping all the paper making questions together.

Another good question.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Woodtroll
Boolit Man


Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Mtns. of SW Virginia
Posts: 100 "Cockle" finish paper- ? for Catboat

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. Catboat (or anyone else who knows)-

I wonder about the "cockle" finish used on some of the onionskin papers, supposedly to make them easier to erase on. Is this indicative of more abrasives, or is it just a particular texture the paper has? The specific paper I am using is Southworth 9 lb. onionskin, 100% cotton, cockle finish.

Thanks very much, take care!
Regan


Woodtroll
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Today, 03:31 PM #2
catboat
Boolit Man

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 145

Cockle finish is a weird one. Weird in that, to a papermaker, it's an undersirable characteristic of the paper.

"Cockle" means the sheet has many "puckers" on in. If you look at the sheet's surface from low angle, you will likely see a non-smooth surface. Cockles or puckers vary in size, but they are area of paper about 1/2" to 1" in size. Some pucker up, and some pucker down. It is due to non-uniform water release (drainage) from the paper. Then as the sheet passes continuously through to the dryer section of the papermachine, the areas of the sheet which have released water at different rates has presented a sheet that will dry at various rates. You use low levels of "draw" or paper tension (which allows the sheet to pucker). The dryer sections of paper (can be areas of 1/2" to 2" in size) will dry faster than the wetter sections (same ~ size area). The uneven degree of heat to the sheet causes the fiber bundles (areas of fiber) to shrink at different and non-uniform rates. This results in a "pucker" or "cockle." When you WANT cockles, is if a customer wants a sheet of paper that is to look like a "hand made" sheet of paper (like from 100+ years ago), and then the sheet was air dried (no tension).

If you want to eliminate cockles or puckering, the papermaker increases the tension of the sheet, at various points along the machine. Today's papermachines make then sheet nice and smooth, almost like ironing it. A smooth sheet is better for printing (better transfer of inks). But, if someone wants a "cockle finish", the papermaker will reduce draw / tension to the sheet, and make the stuff.


It's sort of like having non-uniform areas of corrugation (corrugation would be more linear lines, where as cockling or puckers are "circular" corrugation. By corrugation, I mean the sheet's high and low area create a space. If you stack a bunch of sheets of paper that has cockled, compared to a stack of sheets that does not have cockles, the cockled stack will be bulkier (due to the high/low voids made from the non-uniform drying).

I've seen some weird stuff. Many years ago, my sister bought me some writing paper as a gift. She was very "green and environmentally conscious" back then. The paper was "all natural." She was very proud to give it to me. I looked at it, and it was the lowest quality paper I've seen. Instead of having uniform and smooth formation (fiber orientation, non-blochy) it looked liked someone ironed a bunch of cotton balls together. Instead of having nice smooth fiber orientation, it had literal chunks of wood in it (that's what made it "all natural" I guess). The paper maker calls those chunks "shives" (short "I", like "slip"). Those fiber bundles are deliberately put through screens to remove, because a true papermaker would die of embarassment to produce a sheet of paper with that crap in it. Oh well, I guess if there is a market, there is a product for it.

Someone must like the sound of the work "cockle finish" and wants it. A papermaker I will fill that need, if it means a sale.

From a paper patching stand point, it shouldn't make any difference, good or bad, for wrapping a bullet. It may make it dry a bit non-uniformly, as that is what caused it in the first place (some wraps may be tighter or looser due to fiber drying characteristics). That's a guess, and it may be miniscule, or non-existant.

I wouldn't go out to BUY cockle-finished paper, as it is just bond grade paper (good fiber, and good quality), but with that funky non-uniform fiber drying issue. Certainly don't pay any PREMIUM for it. It still has a fair amount of filler to it (probably at least 12-15% inorganic filler (clay or calcium carbonate), and may be as high as 20%+ filler.

I still like tracing paper or lens paper as a bullet wrap paper. Low ash, strong fiber.

But, as I always repeat... "if it works for you, then use it."


It's interesting how marketing comes to play. Something that is a mistake is now sold as "something special" to those who don't know "the rest of the story." . Now you know.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by catboat; Today at 03:44 PM.

Kurachan
10-27-2008, 02:56 AM
This question is posed for Catboat, Brown Wrapping Paper, as used for covering books, parcels etc. Is available in .002" thickness, how suitable is it for patching? It seems relatively free of sizing and other materials to make it hard and opaque. Two kinds seem to be common, one is dull (both sides) and the other has one or both sides shiny. The dull stuff, looks remarkably like the paper found on antique rounds. Which by the standards of today's paper looks coarse or unfinished.
Thanks
David

catboat
10-29-2008, 09:31 PM
Brown paper is brown as it is unbleached. It also probably has a touch of brown or yellow dye added to it to uniform batch to batch sources of fiber. Brown paper typically has a very high percentage of long fiber (softwood kraft), and low levels (usually not added at all) of inorganic filler ("ash"). Brown wrapping paper is designed to resist tear, which is why it uses long fiber (very strong). Most brown wrapping paper will have some sort of water sizing to it (alum-rosin for acid-, or AKD for alkaline/basic- papermachine systems). Use the "lick test" to see how long (in seconds) it takes to wet-out the opposite side of the sheet.

Think about it, why would you want to wrap something (or even use a paper bag) that wouldn't resist tearing or some water/aqueous material? Condensation from frozen foods, rain on the bags going from the store to the car/home (or vehicle to the home) would make the bag useless.

I haven't measured the thickness of any brown paper bags/wrapping paper, but I do know there are various basis weights of bag paper. The common brown paper grocery bag is certainly thicker than 0.002".

Technically, it should be a good paper to use. Strong, and low ash. The dye, or sizing in the paper shouldn't make any problems for your rifle bore. Because it is sized, it may take some warm/hot water (or some added wallpaper paste, or added baking soda-to lower pH, or egg white-to be a binder) to aid in wrapping the bullet.

I don't know why exactly one side is shiney and the other is dull. Usually, both sides are either shiney or dull. If it is shiney, then the paper probably was processed through a calender stack. This is a serious of steel rolls the act like rolling pins, and polishes the paper (actually, one roll is hard, and the opposite roll is softer). Some are heated. The contact point, or "nip" burnishes the paper, and polishes it. It is referred to as "gloss." Either the shiney or dull should be ok to wrap and shoot.

As I say in my posts, "If it works for you, then, that's great." I think this is a good idea, and deserves a good wrapping and range session. Please post your results for both with your paper source. I'm interested. Sounds good to me. Just may have to try to find some 0.002" thick ("thin"?) brown paper.

You may also find similar bag paper that is bleached, which would be whitish in shade. This too could be used. (stong, and low ash, with some water sizing agent added to it).

Try both, and report back for use. Should be good reading.

Nice find.

Lead pot
12-14-2008, 01:05 PM
One thing you might want to keep in mind with this onion skin paper weight.
I have two boxes of 100% cotton 7.5# that is .0019 thick and three boxes of 100% cotton 9# that is .002. one of 75% cotton 9# .0016 thick.

leftiye
12-14-2008, 03:04 PM
I have really found this thread informative, But I would find a bit of effort in the direction of "what is/are the best paper(s) for paper patching?" to be very helpful. Maybe I'm just too dumb, but I've mired down in the going over of Paper in general without a value system attached. I know it's cool and modern to be non directive, but I'm hoping to not have to reinvent the wheel in terms of obtaining the experience to know what works best.

Lead pot
12-14-2008, 03:12 PM
I like the paper listed above and it's all made by Southworth.
Match the bullet with the paper you are able to find for the dimension you need.

badgeredd
12-21-2008, 07:22 PM
Well I just read this thread, every word, some twice.

I am getting a barrel bored and rifled for a project that originated with a thread in this Paper Patching forum. The smith made a comment when I told him how I arrived at the cartridge I am building a rifle, the comment was about the abrasiveness of paper and bore wear. NOW I HAVE to ask, point blank. :???:

Specifically, WHICH paper should be the least abrasive and the strongest mechanically for paper patching? I am thinking that lens cleaning tissue sounds like it has both properties. Also paper bag paper sounds like it has both properties. I would think that lens paper would be about perfect since it is soft enough to not scratch lenses. BUT I may be totally wrong.

Anyway, thanks to all that have participated in this thread as I now have a pretty decent understanding of the paper requirements and some real understanding of what I definitely don't want in a paper. I may yet give this PPing thing a try! KEEP IT GOING, GUYS!!!!!!!!

Edd

montana_charlie
12-21-2008, 08:07 PM
I received some bullets cast by a guy who bought a case stretcher from us. They are exactly like what I think I want to use, and their diameter is .450". That is the diameter I would prefer...if I can find a paper that gives me the .460" patched-to diameter I want to try.

I tried my 'onion skin' and only got an increase of 6 or 7 thousandths with two wraps.
I tried the Ross lens paper and only got ~ 5 thousandths.

I saw some 'sketching tablets' on my last trip to the grocery store, and tore off a 'sample' from a pad on the bottom of the stack. I figure nobody will buy that one before I have time to get back to the store.

Two wraps of that 'sketching' paper gives me an increase of 10 thousandths...just the amount I want...but I didn't have enough to play with as much as I need to. I'm still unsure if it will stay plastered on the bullet...and won't know until I can try different degrees of wetness.

But, it looks to have enough potential that I may (even) be able to shoot a few of these donated bullets...if the temperature ever gets high enough to allow black powder to ignite!

CM

Lead pot
12-21-2008, 10:12 PM
Edd.

I shoot mostly PP bullets and to date I cant see any wear in my rifles.
I'm not a now and then shooter I burn average of four cases of powder a year. Last year it was five.

In Catboats fine information he stated in one of his posts that the paper slitter or cutter (cant remember what he used) has to be changed so the paper dont tear. It must be many many yards more then I can ever shoot up in my life time I would bet.

I would think that the blackpowder fouling in my barrels wear it more then the paper will.

LP

badgeredd
12-22-2008, 10:15 PM
Edd.

I shoot mostly PP bullets and to date I cant see any wear in my rifles.
I'm not a now and then shooter I burn average of four cases of powder a year. Last year it was five.

In Catboats fine information he stated in one of his posts that the paper slitter or cutter (cant remember what he used) has to be changed so the paper dont tear. It must be many many yards more then I can ever shoot up in my life time I would bet.

I would think that the blackpowder fouling in my barrels wear it more then the paper will.

LP

Thanks lead pot for the info. Now what do you think about the lens paper idea? I realize from all of the reading I did that one doesn't really want a paper that has inorganic additives like clay. If I try this paper patching, I want to start right and get the tecnique down with out the other variables. Understand what I am asking?

Thanks

Edd

Lead pot
12-23-2008, 01:00 AM
Hi Edd.
I don't use any paper on a patched bullet that is thinner then the groove is deep in my barrel.
I don't want the lead to come in contact with the barrel when it gets cut sliding down the barrel.
I use only a paper that is as close to 100% cotton acid free .002 thick.
I don't know what your interest is shooting match, or hunting? but I would suggest finding your paper then order a mould for match the paper that you want to patch to the final dimension you want the bullet to be tight or 1 or 2 thousands under bore and the ogive you want the bullet to be a high BC or high kinetic energy for hunting or a in between usable for both jobs.

Lp.

badgeredd
12-23-2008, 11:35 AM
My intent will be using PP boolits for hunting mainly. Thanks for the added info. I think I'll give it a try very soon. I want to get a cigarette roller ( maybe I can find mine from my younger days[smilie=1:). Hmmmm. wonder if I can still use a dollar bill to roll with? :twisted: I'll likely kinda sneak up on this project as soon as I get my new gun built.:-D

Being a tool maker and a bit of a cheapskate, I am thinking I will first try to make my own mold (just to say I did it). If I am not successful in that I will order one, probably from redriverrick since I know it'll be a quality mold from him.

Just one more thing (maybe), would air cooled ww be an acceptable alloy?

Edd

longbow
12-23-2008, 01:05 PM
badgeredd:

If you are planning to make your own mould, a really easy one to make is the push out mould.

I have made these quite successfully for many years ~ usually to test a design or try a different boolit weight. They also work well for PP boolit moulds and Ideal used to market them.

I have made them in 2 styles: full diameter cylinder with sliding nose form (allows for adjustable weight); and cut with a D bit form tool made to boolit shape including nose but with a small ejection pin forming a flat point, hollow point or formed to the nose.

The basic design is mentioned in joeb33050's book here;

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=36337

Large diameter moulds can be easily bored but for smaller diameter (.30 cal and under) or stepped moulds, like a nose bore rider, I find it easier to make a D bit form cutter.

A small lathe is all you need but even a drill press might be adequate.

I have some pics posted in another thread but I will have to delete some pics if I add more. I can e-mail some to you if you would like to see what I make.

Longbow

montana_charlie
12-23-2008, 01:47 PM
Just one more thing (maybe), would air cooled ww be an acceptable alloy?
The most recent advice you have received on bullet diameter would have you operating at (or slightly under) bore diameter...after patching. In order for a bullet of that size to bump up enough to seal the bore, it will probably need to be somewhat 'soft'. Wheelweights may not give you what you need.

On the other hand, a 'fatter' bullet patched to groove diameter will require less bump. So, it's something to consider...
CM

badgeredd
12-23-2008, 05:46 PM
MC,

Thanks for the answer. I imagine I could use a 50/50 pure lead/ww mix too. I think I'll go with a slightly larger diameter boolit anyway. It seems that way no matter what (within reason) I should be on the right track.:-D

Guess I'd better get at making a mold to see if I am truly capable. :roll: Let the game begin!!!!!!:twisted:

Edd

home in oz
12-23-2008, 05:57 PM
Well thought out article, thanks!

techlava
07-10-2009, 03:32 PM
This is a worthy step toward engineering the PP bullet.

Zeek
09-26-2009, 01:38 PM
I received some bullets cast by a guy who bought a case stretcher from us. They are exactly like what I think I want to use, and their diameter is .450". That is the diameter I would prefer...if I can find a paper that gives me the .460" patched-to diameter I want to try.

I tried my 'onion skin' and only got an increase of 6 or 7 thousandths with two wraps.
I tried the Ross lens paper and only got ~ 5 thousandths. . . .
CM

This may prove helpful.
First, two wraps (what I call a "2X patch") will give you the following diameter increase for the listed hard-surfaced paper (this varies by make, but is a good rule of thumb):
16# paper gives 0.010" (or 0.005"/turn):
20# paper gives 0.012" (or 0.006"/turn):
24# paper gives 0.014" (or 0.007"/turn); and
28# paper gives 0.016" (or 0.008"/thrn).
Use paper that THICK?!!! Now you KNOW I'm crazy. However, listen a bit further and you'll join me in that affliction.

Second, If a 2X patch is not enough, then try at 3X.

With those two pieces of information, you can achieve just about any final-dried-patch-diameter you want from any reasonable boolit core diameter.

Third, a tight as-wrapped-&-dried paper patch is very weak! It will not start to really function (as a "grab point" for the rifling to torque-up the bullet to its muzzle-exit rpm) until all of the "air" has been crushed out of it so that it is a hard shell. You can "get there from here" ahead of time if you size down around half of the patche's added diameter, for THAT is the amount of crush at which most papers become "harder than lead alloy" (i.e., the paper fibers are fully mobilized against one another, with no air cushion left).
Example: If you have a 0.450" boolit core and want a crushed-to-hardness patch diameter of 0.458", you'll need to add 0.016" (dried-over-the-patch diameter of 0.466") = a 2X patch using 28# paper. You then size to 0.458" and end up with a very hard jacket ready to do its work. Sizing down any further than that will cause the boolit core to size down (because the patch is then too hard to give at sizing-induced pressures).

Forth, both wheelweight alloy and the sized-to-hardness patch will give you some springback, so you can expect the patch described above to come out at ~0.459" or even a 0.460". However, when shot, the instant it enters the full-rifling-depth (just ahead of the throating), it will be sized down again to 0.458" in the grooves and further compressed by the lands, so will be able to start doing its torque-up work IMMEDIATELY ~~~> no loosey-goosey slouch-along until the charge FINALLY reaches full pressure (usually 1.2" to 3" forward of the casemouth, in most modern rifle chamberings using rifle-type powders and charges).
Regards, Zeek

jbunny
11-10-2009, 08:41 PM
so much to learn in so little time. lots of good info guys, and mich apriciated.
as for type of paper, thinking outside the box, how about meat wraper paper.
brown paper waxed on one side so u don't have to lube for the final sizeing.
i got to get a electric coffee cup warmer to roll your boolits on and to warm
ur boolits prior to wraping. first got to find out what temp the wax melts.
a brain fart??????
jb

Matt3357
11-12-2009, 02:54 PM
I think I have found some good paper to test out. We use it at work. They are called Kimwipes made by Kimtech. They are a long strand tissue paper like but lint free and very very wettable. Kinda stretchy when wet and about 0.003" thick. The ones we have are about 16" squares. Lots of patches per sheet. Not sure how much they are to buy outright but a couple of sheets will last me a while.

Matt

onesonek
01-22-2011, 02:44 PM
One thing I learned while researching paper, is that lense tissue may be not the best. I didn't find alot on how it was made, but came across one brand that was 70% rayon 30% cellulose. If they all have synthetic fibers in them I do not know. I do know that rayon don't stand a lot of heat, and suspect it would melt at the base. I also wonder what the friction heat will do to it on it's way down the bore. I can envision the possibility of a sticky mess. May not be so, but I have to wonder.

Matt3357
01-23-2011, 12:39 AM
That would explain a lot about their characteristics (stretchiness, etc). I never did anything with the wipes so I can't elaborate on their use.

Matt

onesonek
01-23-2011, 11:40 AM
"With this knowledge, you can now wrap your bullets with a paper paper so that you get maximum strength in the wrapping direction (which is the machine direction, or the direction with the aligned fibers due to the DRAG). So, any sheet of paper you have, you can give a little tear, then turn 90 degrees, and measure the tear again to see which one is stronger/weaker. The WEAKER tear is the STRONGER tensile (or PULLING) force, which is the machine direction, which is the axis you want to wrap AROUND the bullet, or PERPENDICULAR to the bullets major axis. Get that? Read it again until you have it down."

Not nitpikin or trying to over think this,,,,more or less just thinking out loud here.
Ideally,,,would you not want to cut your paper CMD on a bias as to match MD to the twist rate catboat? Just looking for your thoughts on it.
This way the MD max tensile strength is aligned to the lands and grooves, rather than the bore axis. Yeah I know one would have some cutting waste. I'm not sure how much if any difference it would make. It's just one of those thoughts that come from that "perfectionist" character defect (so I'm told by the wife) I inherited from my father,,,lol

catboat
01-23-2011, 02:11 PM
I don't think it makes a HUGE difference, whether you wrap the bullet with the machine direction (md, or "higher percentage of longer fiber in md" ) or cross machine. MOST paper is not totally weak in the cd direction. Some paper is made when cd tensile strength=md tensile strength (called a "square sheet").

My point about wrapping the bullet with the strong directional of the paper (typically MD) is that you could put a tighter wrap around the bullet-and as the wrap dries, have that md strength to prevent ripping/breaking.

I don't think it makes any difference what direction the grooves/lands "see" or get. The bullet is being pushed out with compressed gas. The rifling will cut that paper to some degree. The paper jacket often shreads as it exits the muzzle, due to those cuts or "scoring' of the paper jacket, as the jacket hits the resistance of air (now outside the barrel).

I wouldn't get to worried about the md/cd thing. It works in either direction.

If you go back to the era of true paper jackets of the 1870's-80, Sharps used paper that was called (I believe)" bank note paper). The paper machines back then were very slow, with not a lot of drag of fibers on the formation of the wet sheet. As a result, I wouldn't be surprised if that paper was had a "square tensile" (md=cd, or close to it). There was also a fair amount of "hand made" or "dipped" paper. This is when a papermaker would make a fiber slurry, and dip a framed piece of screening in the slurry. The water would drain, and the sheet would be transferred (or "couched", pronounced "cooched" as in "cool") to a pressing and drying. These "dipped" papers were definitely had "square" tensile, as there wasn't any drag in formation.

Once again, if it works for you, then that's what it's all about. I just wanted to give readers some background on what to think about if they were selecting paper.

For the early poster, tissue paper may or may not be good paper to make a paper jacket. I think true "toilet paper" tissue, wouldn't be so good,as it is designed to lose fiber/fiber strength when it hits water (toilet)-so it won't plug up pipes. Toilet tissue (100% wood fiber) would just fall apart in th paper jacket formation process. You could probably get it to would somehow-but with so many other options, why bother.

The synthetic blend of tissue paper may be different. It MAY work. Try it. I'd guess that the synthetic blended tissue wouldn't have enough natural fibers to hold the wrap when it dries. Hydrogen bonds develop as the fiber:fiber interfaces get closer together upon drying. This process, H-bonding, yields dry strength. The opposite true. When fibersare wet, they are easier to rip/rear. It explains why freshing cut firewood is easier to split than two year old dried fire wood. I would think that 70% synthetic fiber blend would reduce dry strength bonding from the inner/outer layer of the paper jacket by that amount (70%). Who knows, it may work though. As for melting in the barrel? Try it. maybe pressures/temps are low enough. Shotgun cups are plastic. They don't automatically melt in the barrel (for the most part-though sometimes there is some residual gunk left in the barrel.

Tissue WRAPPING paper, is an excellent source. Strong. thin. Should be very close to "tracing paper."

If you don't try you ideas, you'll never know.

montana_charlie
01-23-2011, 02:55 PM
Not nitpikin or trying to over think this,,,,
You're doing a pretty good job of it...
CM

onesonek
01-23-2011, 04:04 PM
Ok,,,it was more a passing thought more than anything. For the most part, I'm more interested in playing with filter paper,,,,, thinking back on what was said about the lack of abrasive sizing additives. Only thing with the cheap coffee filters I had here at hand,,,they were running up to 40% shrink with this particular filter measuring .0025 from the start. Now that may be more to my lack of experience in rolling technique, and I'm over stretching it. Be that as it may, I am looking forward to experimenting with it when my mold gets here,,,,,and the temp. moderates some. It's 12 below right now,,I ain't shooting anything at present.

I do have a line on filter paper and put a request in for a sample,,,we'll see if they are willing to send me some from a roll. It is the heaviest this particular company makes for coffee/tea paper. It weighs 30 g/m2, and specs show strength to be about 3-1 md/cmd with "high wet strength", just noted,,(fully understanding your earilier comments on the matter). I have no idea what the thickness is, but hope to find out.
Another company has 45 g/m2, but it only comes in 70mm width unless special order is produced,,,( I read that as very large quanity). That width may be a bit narrow for medium to large bores. The other company's 30 g/m2 runs 70 -145 mm wide rolls. I asked for a 145mm sample, thinking it may take more than 2 wraps.

From reading here, I know there is a lot out there that works without a lot of fuss,,,,,I just like to experiment, as it just adds another excuse to shoot and to find out "what might be".

I agree, it certainly can't hurt to try the lense tissue/paper. Rayon fiber is completely different than the mass of plastic shotgun wads however. I just know you get rayon fiber/yarn/thread within a 1/2" of a flame, it shrivels worse than your family heritage on a winter's day. And I suspect most PP loads are running at 2 times or more the pressure. I quess it's the throat and leade area I be most concerned with it fouling.
I can't say that the wads melt, but they do leave some residue in the bore. I never use to do than more the run an oil mop down my 12 ga.. I got into Trap a few years. After my first 1/2 season of shooting, I was advised to clean it with "Shooters Choice". Should have been sooner. I ran a wet patch down and let it set 10 mins.,,,,,looked like I had gravel in bore from the plastic lifting from what looked like a fairly clean bore,,,outside of a few unburned powder flakes.

onesonek
01-23-2011, 04:20 PM
You're doing a pretty good job of it...
CM

Thanks!:twisted:

"Not nitpikin or trying to over think this"

Mis-stated,,should have said,,,what's your thought's of cutting on the bias catboat?

That work for you better?

BrentD
01-23-2011, 04:41 PM
One thing I learned while researching paper, is that lense tissue may be not the best. I didn't find alot on how it was made, but came across one brand that was 70% rayon 30% cellulose. If they all have synthetic fibers in them I do not know.



Rayon is not really synthetic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayon

onesonek
01-23-2011, 04:59 PM
True,,,,nor is it entirely natural. I did not know that either however. It still melts at a very low temp, which is my somewhat concerning thoughts. Not that I use it, I generally see Rayon listed along with other synthetics. For the most part I was using the term losely, as if one brand has rayon in the composition, other's may have other similar fibers in it as well whether semi or fully synthetic. Thanks for the headsup on it though Brent

montana_charlie
01-23-2011, 06:01 PM
Mis-stated,,should have said,,,what's your thought's of cutting on the bias catboat?

That work for you better?
It all works for me.
I replied to your post not knowing it was directed to catboat, who had not posted to the thread since September...of 2008.
I figured a short answer would pique your curiosity, and you would ask me to amplify on why I thought you were over thinking the fiber direction.

At that point I meant to give you a short rundown on what my own results had been, so you could use that information as part of the answer to your untested musings.

CM

onesonek
01-23-2011, 07:24 PM
Oh Ok Charlie,,, Yeah, I understand even with a partial post from Catboat that it wasn't clear I was asking his thoughts. I also know his post was sometime ago as well, but I hadn't been following it until recently. With that, I just think the whole process while nearly impossible to re-invent the wheel, is still in part a process of evolution, where as new products that serve a function not as intended still can be or have the possibility of an asset to our sport. My only point or thought was,,,, I hadn't seen the bias cutting mentioned, where as it would come into play(maybe) from a strength aspect. Thanks!!!

Westerner
10-20-2011, 07:11 PM
Back with some questions after many years.
Tried cast and swaged striaght wall bullets with 100% rag 9# and 30 to 1 lead with double wrap using water/egg white solution for wetting as per Paul Mathews recomendations. I have all his books and consider it the best library for the 45-70. I bought a Pedersolli 1874 "Quigley" model in 45-70 just so I could load BP Patched rouunds only. To date I haven't been able to get a bullet out without leaving a ring of paper on the taper portion of the lands. Has anyone successfully shot this gun with paper patch? Has anyone been able to pollish the face of the land taper portion. I would appreciate any recomendations. Thanks, Larry

BrentD
10-20-2011, 08:42 PM
Larry, there are lots of people that shoot that make/model with PPBs and do well. So, it's not the gun.

1. Loose the egg white. I love Paul Matthew's stuff, but the whites will just give you problems. Water is enough and even wrapping dry works best for many folks (including myself). But this won't fix the paper ring.

2. The ring is caused by the bullet swelling up in the chamber as the pressure rises. This pushes paper into the gap between the case and the beginning of the lands, where it is sheared off. There are two solutions

A. get longer brass. Or lengthen your brass. There is a guy that makes a jig to do the latter. But for sure,your brass is too short for your chamber.

B. rechamber your gun. This requires exactly the right reamer. It should be doable by a skilled smith w/o setting back the barrel. The right reamer is one that I call the "Orville Chamber". It will do the job, but A is easier and cheaper.

If you go to the Shiloh rifle forums (http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/index.php), and post a note asking about information for either A or B, you will find the folks that can help.

Brent

montana_charlie
10-20-2011, 09:16 PM
A. get longer brass. Or lengthen your brass. There is a guy that makes a jig to do the latter. But for sure,your brass is too short for your chamber.
The case stretching jig is sold at http://kal.castpics.net/CaseStretcher.html
It is demonstrated at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGzQsrPT4Qs

CM

BrentD
10-20-2011, 09:24 PM
That is one cool rig there CM, but I was thinking of this
http://www.classiccheckering.com/classiccheckering_040.htm

montana_charlie
10-21-2011, 11:47 AM
That is one cool rig there CM, but I was thinking of this
http://www.classiccheckering.com/classiccheckering_040.htm
Here's a video on Tim's stretcher. It works metal in the neck of the case where the amount available for lengthening is limited.

I recommend a shooter make his choice based on how much more length he needs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJQVNTvj5Lw

CM

BrentD
10-21-2011, 11:50 AM
I agree that if a lot of stretch is needed, your rig is the ticket. How much can you stretch with one of those and did you make it? It is darn slick but no trifle to make or purchase I'm sure.

montana_charlie
10-21-2011, 12:18 PM
I agree that if a lot of stretch is needed, your rig is the ticket. How much can you stretch with one of those
Theoretically, you could use it to make 45/90 out of 45/70 brass, but the sizes of the die and punch won't cause that much stretch.
As supplied, it will do up to about 40 thousandths, and it's easily modified to get more ... up to about a tenth.
To get more would require different parts with different dimensions.
As supplied, it will not reduce a case wall down to the thinness of Winchester factory 45/70.

and did you make it?
The basic concept is mine. Rick Kalynuik made stuff for me that I used to test the validity of the method. Then, he and I brainstormed it together to come up with a tool that anybody could use by reading a manual.

It is darn slick but no trifle to make or purchase I'm sure.
Rick makes them ... and sells them. Once the tool was available to the public I was satisfied, so my involvement ended ... except for providing tech support to users with questions.

Tim's tool requires the user to own a reloading press and (according to him) an RCBS sizing die.
Ours requires the user to have a 4-ton porto-power hydraulic tool.

If a guy buys a porto-power just for this one purpose, the ninety bucks makes it darned expensive. If he has other jobs that the porto-power can be used for, that makes it easier to swallow.

Back when I was keeping track, Harbor Freight and Home Depot had some good prices on porto-power sets ... and there was the occasional 'deal' on eBay.

Rick has also developed replacement parts which can make the jig work with 38-55 cases, and perhaps others. He can fill you in on that.

CM

montana_charlie
11-20-2011, 06:34 PM
I was doing some housekeeping around my reloading supply zone when I (re)discovered the sample lens paper sent me by Ross Optical.
I mentioned that back in Post #60 http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=394605&postcount=60 but did not provide any useful information.

Now that I HAVE been paper patching for a while, I have some idea of what 'useful information' looks like, so here is a bit of that.

I cut some patches to wrap on my .454" smooth-sided Money bullets.
When wrapping dry, it's hard to get the paper on tightly. No matter how well-controlled the grip is during the wrap, the patch is still loose on the bullet when done.

Maybe further practice would get success, but I didn't choose to spend the time on a procedure that I can do easily with other papers.
So ... I tried wet wrapping.

The lens paper goes on very sweetly when it's wet. It seems like it wants to be part of a paper patched package.
Unfortunately for my purposes, even though the paper mics at about 4 thousandths thick when dry, a double wrap only adds 4 thousandths (total) to a bullet.
That is, my .454" naked slug gets up to .458" ... no more.

But, as far as seeming like a useful paper for patching, I think it's strong enough (when dry) to do it's job. Because it IS so far under the size I use, I don't plan on shooting any of it.

CM

Texantothecore
06-16-2012, 03:48 PM
Has anyone tested the:

Coffee filters
Teabag paper
tracing paper?

Claypipe
08-18-2012, 11:56 AM
Here's an odd thought, what about using pages from old paperbacks? If it works, a cheap source would be any Goodwill or Salvation Army store.

doc1876
04-05-2014, 04:02 PM
you are scaring the hell out of me! I spent 24 years 11 months and 23 days making paper and they shut the mill down. I was a refiner operator, and a back tender most of the time there towards the end, and this made me relive all of those nightmares over.... the only thing I see, is that we made our paper (26# 30# and 40# ) at 1000 sheets per for the weight. once we accidentally made some 10 lb, and it is still being used for Sharps cartridges for my '59 Garrett.
If a person ever gets to see the inside of a mill, it can be a frightening experience to see a machine the size of a football field going 22 mph sitting still.

doc1876
04-05-2014, 04:02 PM
btw, that is 8 days short of 25 years

375RUGER
04-05-2014, 08:15 PM
Don't tell me...you were going to turn 65 in 8 days.

doc1876
04-06-2014, 11:40 PM
no, however, because I was short of 25 years, they deducted my benifits.

bigowl
09-18-2016, 11:33 PM
I too enjoyed your posts. I'm a retired B/T on a liner-board machine. Thanks ! To be honest, I miss backtending but not running the machine !