Flaring a case neck for cast boolits

[jeff100]

I'm having trouble hand loading cast boolits for my 357 magnum. I'm using a Lee Pistol die set. In setting the case expander die deep enough to easily start my cast boolits the die seems to expand the entire case neck too much. There isn't much case neck tension left after seating the boolit. If I back off the expander die so there is proper neck tension I can't start a cast boolit.

I see that Lee sells a universal neck expanding die made and sold for seating cast boolits. Will this die (or one by another manufacturer) flare the case mouth instead of expanding the case neck? I'm looking for a die that will flare out the mouth of the case. What do you all use to enlarge the case mouth enough to start the base of the boolit? JJ

[Yodogsandman]

Yes, the Lee Universal Neck Expanding tool will work. If you decide you want better, NOE sells expander spuds that replaces the Lee Universals spud.

[35 shooter]

I like the versatility of the lee universal tool. I use it for every cal. i load for.

[crackers]

The plug portion might be on the large side, (if the boolits aren't smallish) and can be lapped or fine papered .001".

[BUCKEYE BANDIT]

Best money I ever spent.Bought one for 9mm problem child,now have them for every thing I load cast in,and that's everything I load!!! .At $6.50 ea. even my budget isn't impacted severely.
Yes, the Lee Universal Neck Expanding tool will work. If you decide you want better, NOE sells expander spuds that replaces the Lee Universals spud.

[ABJ]

I would use the lyman "M" die. I have those dies for all my bottleneck cases as well as 38/357, and 44 revolver cases. I do use the Lee universal expander when loading a little larger than normal boolits. I have not used the NOE, but from what I understand it is a lot like the "M" die and if so might be a little less expensive.
Tony

[dragon813gt]

I see that Lee sells a universal neck expanding die made and sold for seating cast boolits. Will this die (or one by another manufacturer) flare the case mouth instead of expanding the case neck? I'm looking for a die that will flare out the mouth of the case. What do you all use to enlarge the case mouth enough to start the base of the boolit? JJ

This is all the Lee die does. It's not an expanding die. It's another tool that Lee named improperly. If all you want to do is flair the case mouth then that's the die you want. If you want to expand the case properly buy NOE's inserts for the die. Only thing that would make that better is if the entire setup was powder through.

[lightman]

I use the Lyman "M" die on rifle cartridges but have never needed anything else when using my RCBS dies.

[Petrol & Powder]

I would use the lyman "M" die. I have those dies for all my bottleneck cases as well as 38/357, and 44 revolver cases. I do use the Lee universal expander when loading a little larger than normal boolits. I have not used the NOE, but from what I understand it is a lot like the "M" die and if so might be a little less expensive.
Tony
This would be my solution. Another possibility is the RCBS "Cowboy" expander stem or just a standard RCBS expander. I've never had a problem with RCBS or Redding equipment and since I'm only going to buy it once, I'll spend the little extra money.

[mozeppa]

they ought to call it the lee carrot die...because it's like shoving a carrot in the case to achieve a flare.

it does nothing for the 98% of the rest of the bullet that has to be seated.

[OS OK]

Yes, the Lee Universal Neck Expanding tool will work. If you decide you want better, NOE sells expander spuds that replaces the Lee Universals spud.


207337

This is the Lee Expander die and the two expanders that come with it are in the top left two compartments.
All the rest of the expanders are from NOE.
So...I made a kit out of it, I expect to add more expanders in the future.

When you go to the trouble of discovering what size cast you need to use in your weapon and then stuff it into a case that was expanded for a jacketed round it just swages that cast to some extent and all the work you have done thus far is negated.

Generally the brass will shrink back from the expander mandrel by .002"...if you expand .001" over the cast sizing it will give you .001" of case retention/squeeze on the cast without trying to resize it. Then you add an appropriate firm crimp for good start pressure and/or to prevent magnum setback in the cylinder or in an auto to keep the round from changing OAL as it goes into battery from the magazine...then your good to go.

It's always best to load a few dummy rounds and take them apart after 24 hours to measure the cast to determine just how much to size over the cast size...brass varies.

This is about as simple, universal and easy as it gets if you are looking for some degree of precision.

[HABCAN]

LEE all the way. I have TWO, one for each side of the room, LOL.

[vzerone]

207337

This is the Lee Expander die and the two expanders that come with it are in the top left two compartments.
All the rest of the expanders are from NOE.
So...I made a kit out of it, I expect to add more expanders in the future.

When you go to the trouble of discovering what size cast you need to use in your weapon and then stuff it into a case that was expanded for a jacketed round it just swages that cast to some extent and all the work you have done thus far is negated.

Generally the brass will shrink back from the expander mandrel by .002"...if you expand .001" over the cast sizing it will give you .001" of case retention/squeeze on the cast without trying to resize it. Then you add an appropriate firm crimp for good start pressure and/or to prevent magnum setback in the cylinder or in an auto to keep the round from changing OAL as it goes into battery from the magazine...then your good to go.

It's always best to load a few dummy rounds and take them apart after 24 hours to measure the cast to determine just how much to size over the cast size...brass varies.

This is about as simple, universal and easy as it gets if you are looking for some degree of precision.

You said the crucial words there about the cast bullet (especially soft non-gaschecked flatbase) getting swaged by the tight neck or the very sharp angled inner ledge left by the Lyman M die. If you are after the most accuracy you can get flaring is the best way to go.

[Larry Gibson]

"the die seems to expand the entire case neck too much. There isn't much case neck tension left after seating the boolit".

You don't really want a lot of tension on a cast bullet because it will swage them down many times. When that happens everything you've done for a perfect "fit" is lost. If you can't turn the bullet in the case after seating with your fingers it is probably tight enough. My guess is the sizer is over sizing the cases you have and it only appears the expander is expanding them too much.

[vzerone]

When you have a case with a short neck like the 300 Savage and the 7.65 Argentine for two examples, the Lyman M dies leaves a good portion of the mouth larger then the bullet (that you then have to size back or crimp) and bottom with the ledge I speak of not leaving much "real" tension on the bullet. That is critical depending on what type of cast bullet you are using where lube grooves may be inside the neck somewhere. Those have no tension what so ever.

[fredj338]

I load all my handgun on a 550 or 650. So I had a machinist friend regrind the Dillon Powder thru to an 'M' profile. Bullets seat perfectly straight.

[dragon813gt]

When you have a case with a short neck like the 300 Savage and the 7.65 Argentine for two examples, the Lyman M dies leaves a good portion of the mouth larger then the bullet (that you then have to size back or crimp) and bottom with the ledge I speak of not leaving much "real" tension on the bullet. That is critical depending on what type of cast bullet you are using where lube grooves may be inside the neck somewhere. Those have no tension what so ever.

You can adjust the die so you don't hit the second step. When loading boat tail jacketed bullets you don't need to flair the mouth at all. Adjustment of the die is key. What makes the NOE inserts so. Ice is that they come in different diameters so you can find tune bullet tension. Before I bought them I used a M did to load cast in 300 Savage w/ no issues.

[swheeler]

I use M die to load cast in 7.65 Arg with no issues, I am a fan of the Lyman M dies.

[vzerone]

I use M die to load cast in 7.65 Arg with no issues, I am a fan of the Lyman M dies.

LOL swheeler, but are you getting the accuracy that the taper die guys are????:drinks:

[swheeler]

LOL?? Better I hope:drinks:

[vzerone]

All the little things add up, they really do. What are you using a 1891 or 1909? I got a (get this) 1909 that has a brand new barrel on it. I about fell over when I seen it. The grooves are .3110000 Can't ask for more then that in a 7.65. I find a major difference in throats and bore dimension between the 91's and 09's, what do you think?:Fire:

[RogerDat]

Yes, the Lee Universal Neck Expanding tool will work. If you decide you want better, NOE sells expander spuds that replaces the Lee Universals spud.
Plus one on these NOE expander plugs used in the Lee Universal Expander die. The NOE spuds being round not tapered give a consistent tension for the depth of the bullet and tiny amount of flare for a well defined depth at the case mouth.

Check out the pictures and you will see how they would give a better result. Also note the precision sizes so you can get just what you need for your oversized or undersized custom cast to the bore bullet.
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=89&osCsid=ic35n6fc01o151mh1dhnv8l5t7

[vzerone]

Plus one on these NOE expander plugs used in the Lee Universal Expander die. The NOE spuds being round not tapered give a consistent tension for the depth of the bullet and tiny amount of flare for a well defined depth at the case mouth.

Check out the pictures and you will see how they would give a better result. Also note the precision sizes so you can get just what you need for your oversized or undersized custom cast to the bore bullet.
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=89&osCsid=ic35n6fc01o151mh1dhnv8l5t7

If that's the little bit of flare just right ahead of the big step up, then those look okay and are better then the M die.

[Moonie]

I just noticed that NOE no longer has the powder through expanders that they used to. Whats up with that?

[RogerDat]

I just noticed that NOE no longer has the powder through expanders that they used to. Whats up with that? Your right. I haven't used them but I have used the Lee ones for pistol and like them a lot.

Yes VZ that little bit of a band is the flare and getting the neck size consistent makes seating bullet have a more consistent feel to the press. Smooth and all the cases require same pressure. I literally bought them for anything where I didn't already have a Lee powder through expander die that came with the die set.

[dragon813gt]

I just noticed that NOE no longer has the powder through expanders that they used to. Whats up with that?

He hasn't had them in a long time. Some of the original ones didn't work properly. I believe the one for 9mm was one of them. I have a bunch of them but don't use them. The ones for the universal die are sized more appropriately.

[OS OK]

207364

That's one of the problems with the Lee Powder Through Expander...'oversized' casts.
I got around that by running a regular sizer in front of the Lee Powder die. It adds a stroke but who cares, it's right.

[jeff100]

Thanks everyone, yet again another informative thread. One thing I didn't mention in my original post is my boolits are sized oversize to begin with and the boolit shape that has no bevel on the plain base is giving me the most trouble in starting them in the case, I've lost a few cases because of these plain base boolits catching the edge of the cartridge case during seating, deforming the case mouth as the boolit is seated hence the need for a slight flare, just enough to clear the base and start the boolit properly in the cartridge case

I'll get the Lee universal expander die and deploy it in the station of my turret press, using it along with the standard powder thru expander die. I'll back off the powder thru expander die to give me just enough expansion/taper on the case for the correct case neck tension and then flare out the case neck in the next station. That should work well and give me exactly what I'm looking for. I don't size and decap my cartridge cases when charging and loading anyway. Sizing/decapping is done before I tumble clean my shot brass so that the primer pockets get cleaned (somewhat) during tumbling. That leaves an extra station open in my turret press for adding the universal die during the loading process. - JJ

[Viper225]

I am loading 357 Maximum on my 550 Dillon using RCBS Dies. My bullets are NOE 360-180 WFN-GC sized to .357. I was having a problem getting the case in the Seater Die after flaring on the Dillon Powder Thru Expander enough to seat my cast bullets. I was wadding up way to many expensive cases. I took it out for a look and the die had no chamfer to get the belled case started into the die. I had a second Seating Die that I was using to apply the Roll Crimp, and it was made the same. I also have a RCBS 357 Taper Crimp die that I use for bullets with no crimping groove where you need it like the Hornady 140 FTX that I seat very long. I was going to get it chamfered with the others and discovered it had a really nice factory chamfer on it. I had the other two chamfered at the machine shop. Problem solved.
One of my 357 Maximums has a .358 bore. It does not shoot the .357 sized bullets well at all. I have a larger Lube/Sizer die for it. I also got one of the NOE Expanders for loading the .358 bullets in that barrel.

Bob

[texassako]

I will throw a slightly different option out there. I really like the Lyman Multi-Expander and Powder Charge die. Basically a powder through M die that comes with about all the pistol caliber expanders you would ever need.

[trixter]

207400

I use this with great success, and you can get different sizes of them.

RCBS neck expander die.

[KCSO]

Many years ago I bought a small arbor press for eye glass work. I turned a few case neck expanders for it and use it for everything. Before that in the dark ages I used a 50 call dummy round and the palm of my hand. Both worked the press is much better.

[retrobass]

He hasn't had them in a long time. Some of the original ones didn't work properly. I believe the one for 9mm was one of them. I have a bunch of them but don't use them. The ones for the universal die are sized more appropriately.

If you have one of the old 9mm Dillon expanders NOE made, I'd gladly buy it from you. Something for me to tinker with. I'm really amazed that there isn't somebody selling m-style powder through dies like hot cakes, seems like there's a market for it.

[dragon813gt]

They never made Dillon ones. They are for Lee powder through dies.

[jimb16]

I used to use the Lyman M die, but these days, I load several different nominally .30 cals and each one takes a slightly different diameter bullet. I've gone to the lee "case mouth flairing tool" since it is quick and easy to adjust for each different round.

[robg]

Std expander die works fine for me in 357 using 358 sized boolits just flare the case enough to start the boolits without damaging it.use the expander dies for my .223 and .308 no problem.

[trixter]

Maybe I a missing something here, All of my Pistol die sets came with Powder through Expanding Die. They have worked perfectly ever since I started reloading (88). They just need to be adjusted correctly. For my Rifle reloading I use RCBS Neck expander die in the correct size and it will size the neck perfectly and flare just enough to let a gas checked lead bullet get started nicely. again correct adjustment is the key.

Hope this helps someone.