Solar Electricity

[Echo]

I'm in the process of getting solar panels to provide the electricity for my house. I live in the city, but the electric bill is going through the roof. An engineer checked my peek usage, and recommends an 8.7 KW (31 panel) installation. My question is - it only comes with a 7 KW inverter. If the panels can provide 8.7KW, why shouldn't the installation include an 8.7KW inverter?
During the day, any electricity I don't use is fed into the grid, figuratively running the meter backwards, and the savings will ostensibly pay for the installation. At night, I get power from the grid.
Any comments?

[AZBronco]

Mr. Echo,who will hold title to these panels? If you sell the house,are you still subject to pay off any debt or does that debt pass forward to new home owner/s?Also,does the solar co. have a 2nd on your title? How are you buying this equipment?

[RED BEAR]

You may want to consider a new roof if that is where the system is going as it will need to be removed to replace or do very much repair to it. Please let us know how it works out as I have thought about putting in solar system but was not sure the cost benefit would work out for the life of the panels. Electricity's pretty cheap here compared to other parts of country so that may influence my reasoning. My electric bill rarely goes to $300 for a total electric home. Good luck with your project.

[starmac]

I hope this works out as planned. I have known quite a few folks that were off grid and their place and appliances were planned out just for that purpose, but this has always been because grid hookup was either not available at any cost, or just totally cost prohibitive. Anyone I knew would have switched over to the grid fast if it was an option.

I take that back, I knew one old time rancher that lived till the day he died refusing to hook up to the grid, which came available to him at some point, he like most of his time went to bed with the chickens so just didn't have a lot of need for it. lol

When he died he still used a one cylinder maytag to wash his clothes, and his whole shop was either gas or hand powered.

I knew another that paid good bucks to have his house wired and a considerable sum to have power run to his house after years of living without it, when he got his first bill he called and ask what they thought they were trying to pull, he had paid in cash, he too lived out the rest of his days without electricity. lol

I do know in most places there is quite a bit of difference in what the electric company pays you for your electricity and what they charge you for theirs, even if they tell you it is the same for kilowatt, they neglect to mention that half of it is delivery cost that they do not pay for yours.

[Mr_Sheesh]

I imagine the inverter is sized to your expected power needs, the extra capacity is so that on less sunny days (hazy, or earlier in the day / later in the evening) you have enough power for your needs without using grid power much.

[Lloyd Smale]

My buddy lived far enough away from the nearest power and in a very rocky area where plowing cable would be expensive. he decided to go with a combo or wind and solar. I forget now what it all cost but at the time I figured it would take 20 years to even break even at the rate I was paying and our electric is high in this area. I think the time will come when this technology is more efficient and cost effective but its not here yet. Sad thing for him too is he about drained his bank account doing it and died 5 years later of cancer. I'm sure whoever buys the house that was left to his 14 year old kid will thank him though. reason they probably spec. a smaller invertor is energy loss. they probably look at your average consumption figuring if you went over average and into peak useage the cost of the bigger invertor and the increased energy loss wouldn't justify putting something in that really isn't cost effective.

[HATCH]

You need to ask for the ROI calculations.
ROI = Return on Investment

Basically how long they calculate that it will take for the panels to pay for themselves in savings.
You need to also ask what the life expectancy is for the panels as well.

By design, you installation is gonna be 100% off grid during the daylight hours with most likely 2kw being sold back.

[scattershot]

My take on solar is that it's fine in the country, if you're not on the grid for some reason. In the city, I figure you're going to be hooked up to the local utility whether you have solar or not. Then it becomes a choice of paying the utility, or paying the solar company. You have to pay someone either way, and I think you're fooling yourself if you opt for solar if you don't need it. JMHO.

[MaryB]

Standard practice, your panels only produce peak power a little over an hour a day and most charge controllers can handle a 20% over current(they just stop at whatever max current they can handle and ignore the rest).

[Bookworm]

Back in 2007 I replaced the HVAC in our all-electric house. I checked in to Geo-thermal, but decided against it because the payback was to long a time - something around 8 years to get the extra money back.

Little did I realize that in just a year of so, an Administration would be in power that instituted policies DESIGNED to jack up electric rates ("Following my plan, electric rates will necessarily skyrocket..." B.H.Obama).

What I'm trying to say is - be careful of the cost-benefit analysis. There are always unknowns. If I had it to do over, I would have jumped all over the Geo-thermal systems. Once the holes are drilled, the replacement costs are much lower.

Electric rates WILL go up, and go up dramatically. We are no longer fueled by cheap coal, which can be contracted for long-term, but by mostly natural gas, which, as a commodity, is subject to market forces. This makes power costs many times more volatile.

Perhaps installation of solar panels that you own is a good call.

[leadman]

Here in Arizona solar works very well. Trouble is the power company I have, APS, seems to want to make it difficult and costly for a homeowner to have solar. They charge you a fee even if you do not use their electricity and have also lowered the dollar amount they pay a homeowner for excess solar sold to them. With leased panels this excess solar monet goes to the leasing company.
My neighbor had a company install panels on his roof that he does not own so there is an issue if he sells. His bill is fixed at the amount he was paying APS at the time the panels were installed. Took almost 6 months for APS to inspect the installation and turn on the system.
If I go solar I will buy my own system and install it. I know an electrician who will do the final hook-up so it will meet code. Even with his cost it still will be about 1/4 of the cost of having a "solar" company doing the install.
Before you install the solar you might want to go over what you are powering now and see if some changes can be made to lower your bill. I had a new HVAC system installed a couple of years ago and it lowered my bill about $40 a month alone. The replacement of incandescent and compact fluorescent bulbs with LEDs lowered it about another $20 to $30 a month. I also installed more insulation in the attic and on my garage walls and door.
The system proposed for your house is very large compared to most of the systems I see on roofs here in Phoenix.

[Echo]

I hold title - no lease arrangement for me.

[Echo]

My buddy lived far enough away from the nearest power and in a very rocky area where plowing cable would be expensive. he decided to go with a combo or wind and solar. I forget now what it all cost but at the time I figured it would take 20 years to even break even at the rate I was paying and our electric is high in this area. I think the time will come when this technology is more efficient and cost effective but its not here yet. Sad thing for him too is he about drained his bank account doing it and died 5 years later of cancer. I'm sure whoever buys the house that was left to his 14 year old kid will thank him though. reason they probably spec. a smaller invertor is energy loss. they probably look at your average consumption figuring if you went over average and into peak useage the cost of the bigger invertor and the increased energy loss wouldn't justify putting something in that really isn't cost effective.

Makes sense...

[Echo]

You need to ask for the ROI calculations.
ROI = Return on Investment

Basically how long they calculate that it will take for the panels to pay for themselves in savings.
You need to also ask what the life expectancy is for the panels as well.

By design, you installation is gonna be 100% off grid during the daylight hours with most likely 2kw being sold back.

The estimate is about 8 years - and I hope to last that long, too...

[Echo]

My take on solar is that it's fine in the country, if you're not on the grid for some reason. In the city, I figure you're going to be hooked up to the local utility whether you have solar or not. Then it becomes a choice of paying the utility, or paying the solar company. You have to pay someone either way, and I think you're fooling yourself if you opt for solar if you don't need it. JMHO.

My electric bill just went up to $239/mo, averaging over the year.

[HATCH]

Sounds like a win win setup to me.
ROI used to be 15-20 years. Not worth it for the ROI.
8 years ROI means 12 to 17 years of pure profit
Well worth the investment


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Echo]

Sounds like a win win setup to me.
ROI used to be 15-20 years. Not worth it for the ROI.
8 years ROI means 12 to 17 years of pure profit
Well worth the investment


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Here's hoping - but I doubt that I will last 20 years!

[scattershot]

So what are the payments on the solar installation? Will you still need the power company on cloudy days?

[Mal Paso]

If this is a roof mount the angle of the panels to the sun may derate the panels to work with that 7KW inverter. Most roofs are the wrong angle and pitch to make the best use of the sun. If the earth realigns itself with your panels we'll have more problems than an overloaded inverter. Working load is usually 80% of max load which would be 5,600 watts peak. I have only built offgrid systems but electrical standards are the same.

Pole mounted panels usually have more output with better alignment to the sun and better air cooling. Hot panels produce less electricity. Most gridtie solar firms only do roofmounts. Might be kickbacks from roofers LOL.

If it's going on the roof ask a roofer. Best of luck.

[Lloyd Smale]

my electric bill with just myself and wife is 210 a month. That said I'm a bit prejudice because I worked in the electrical utility field as a lineman most of my life. Yes that's a lot of money but many pay near that for there cable tv, phone, heat ect or the payment you pay on your new truck, car, motorcycle, atv ect . Look at what all you use electric for. Most of us use it one way or the other for at least 12 hours a day and couldn't live without it. I can live without tv and a smart phone but if you look at the big picture you get more for your money with your electric bill then any other bill you have. You wouldn't be on here without it. If your here you probably cast bullets and load ammo. Take electric away from that and most would find a different hobby. Also factor in the electricity that is not factored in to heating and cooling your home, powering that tv, computer ect that should be considered part of those costs. shut off all your luxury items like tvs, stereos, phone chargers, microwaves ect and buy yourself a wood stove for heat and hot water and go and cut firewood and see how much you can drop your electric bill. Bottom line is none of us want to give up those luxuries. So its not the utility's fault you use so much electricity. Lots of ways to reduce that bill if you really want to. Your great grandpa didn't have a hot shower every day. Didn't run a water pump every time he went to the can. didn't wash His dishes or clothes in hot water from a hot water tank. Didn't have probably anything in his house that needed electricity and even your grandpa probably on used it for lights. Only reason your electric bill is over 200 bucks is the same reason mine is. I use it ALL THE TIME because it just makes life easier. I'm sitting here right now at 8 oclock in the morning. Allready used electric to cook breakfast, my wife showered before work using hot water and the water pump. Lights are on, computer is obviously on and the tv is on in the back ground along with the cable box. Furnance blower has came on a few times since ive been up. fridge and freezers have probably came on in the last couple hours too.
My electric bill just went up to $239/mo, averaging over the year.

[rancher1913]

been looking at solar systems for our retirement house. our power company got a law passed that they do not have to purchase your solar electricity so the rate they pay is so low the grid tie companies won't even look at this area. I pay 95 bucks a month just for the right to have electricity, thats before I ever use one drop of power and the scum buckets even charged me 150 bucks last year on top of my normal bill because I did not use enough electricity for them. looks like it will be off grid for me even with the power line right on the road and I look forward to when I can tell the arrogant REA they can stick the poles up their you know what. my current power bill with all propane appliances runs 400 to 500 bucks a month.

[Lloyd Smale]

what is your kilowatt per hour charge there. Ours is one of the highest ive seen and I'm all electric except of heat and like I said the furnace still needs electricity and I just looked and mine is 201 per month (that's 12 months on budget plan) Now that's with electric hot water, clothes dryer, stove, basically everything but the gas for the furnace is electric. That includes running to large freezers and a one bedroom apartment for my learning disabled so that also has its own electric hot water tank, electric stove, clothes dryer ect. Something is drastically wrong with a 4-500 dollar a month bill unless your running a restaurant out back.

Just checked we pay just under 11cents a kilowatt hour which is higher then the average CO resident which is about 10.5. Now granted your could be slightly higher do to location. Even at 13 which would be very high you power bill shouldn't be anymore then 20percent higher then mine unless you have a HUGE house lots of kids and kids with the habit of leaving everything on and considering you say you have gas appliances its should be lower. Id call your utility and ask them to come put a recording meter on your home and it will tell you exactly when you usage goes up and down so you will know what is causing that astronomical power bill or if maybe your meter isn't calibrated right. Bad water pumps and freezers and fridges are notorious for this problem. Even with all this said how many of us pay 2-300 dollars a month for insurance (not even including what part of your salary represents health insurance. You in all reality probably shell out 500 dollars a month for insurance between health, home, and auto and basically get NOTHING FOR IT unless something bad happens maybe once every few years.

As to the extra 150 bucks they charged you that is no doubt a power supply charge. It cost money to build lines. If they spent say 20k to put a line to your home and you don't use a certain amount of electricity they add a surcharge so that its not someone on the other side of town who has to pay more to offset the cost of building that line to your home. They figure an average power supply rate and it is added to the kilowatt hour charge everyone pays. At a certain level some have to pay more to pay there fair share of the costs and some get refunds. I just looked on my bill and I got a wopping $2.50 refund credited to this months bill. I am somewhat blown away though that if your bill is actually even 300 dollars a month you have to pay in anything. Only exception is sometimes when a line extension is built for one or two people that costs a lot of money they are charged for its construction and rather then hitting your for 10 grand up front to build the line you pay over say a 5 year period on your bill. If your avatar is correct and you live on a ranch chances are theres lots of line that had to be built and maintained for a single customer. Even if you bought your home and the owner before you made this contract you are still responsible for it. As I said anything else would require everyone to pay more for your convenience. bottom line is ive been around the power utility world all my life and if your paying that much anywhere theres a reason and you should contact your power company and nicely as for an explanation why and for them to set up a recording meter so that you can see whats really going on in your home and what is using the power.
been looking at solar systems for our retirement house. our power company got a law passed that they do not have to purchase your solar electricity so the rate they pay is so low the grid tie companies won't even look at this area. I pay 95 bucks a month just for the right to have electricity, thats before I ever use one drop of power and the scum buckets even charged me 150 bucks last year on top of my normal bill because I did not use enough electricity for them. looks like it will be off grid for me even with the power line right on the road and I look forward to when I can tell the arrogant REA they can stick the poles up their you know what. my current power bill with all propane appliances runs 400 to 500 bucks a month.

[MaryB]

Wait until you find out zoning regulations force you to connect to utilities... I know FL does that...

[mold maker]

I used to cut and split wood, enough that it heated my home and water requirements for the year. Now I would rather just adjust the thermostat and open the facet with the expatation of it being warm. I use/save as much power as needed, because the bargain I get vs a chain saw and splitting wedges doesn't justify the effort.
Time and age have a way of changing your perspective.

[salpal48]

I know several people went solar and Everyone Regreted it. No money saved. Just expensive. The power co. sure Pays You but the cost Of electric is small If you do not Count the so delivery Charge. The delivery Is Generally 5 to 10 Times your Usage which is non Regulated

[dverna]

I checked into solar 4 years ago. It was a 20 year payback and it made no sense to me. Maybe costs have come down....or I maybe I was dealing with a rip off company.

Solar cells do deteriorate over time, so factor that into your numbers.

My cost in northern Michigan is about $.10/kwhr. Not cheap but not too bad either. There will be a point where the cost of solar comes down and electricity gets ever more expensive. If I cannot get an eight year payback, I would not do it. Plus, I can never be totally off the grid. We can get quite a bit of snow and I doubt solar works well with the panels covered.

[AggieEE]

I'm teaching a class now about solar, learning as I go. Panels degrade at about 1% per year so one test question asks how much is lost after 30 years and it is 26% of initial cap. Also be aware that if your system is tied into the grid if the grid goes down so will your inverter. If you want to go totally off grid you will need storage batteries, very expensive, with a microinverter to keep your main inverter synced. This can also work for a grid system just be sure that you have a auto disconnect going to the grid. Otherwise you'll try to power the entire grid. The other posts have a lot of good information in them also.

[gwpercle]

My buddy lived far enough away from the nearest power and in a very rocky area where plowing cable would be expensive. he decided to go with a combo or wind and solar. I forget now what it all cost but at the time I figured it would take 20 years to even break even at the rate I was paying and our electric is high in this area. I think the time will come when this technology is more efficient and cost effective but its not here yet. Sad thing for him too is he about drained his bank account doing it and died 5 years later of cancer. I'm sure whoever buys the house that was left to his 14 year old kid will thank him though. reason they probably spec. a smaller invertor is energy loss. they probably look at your average consumption figuring if you went over average and into peak useage the cost of the bigger invertor and the increased energy loss wouldn't justify putting something in that really isn't cost effective.

Lloyd is totally correct , it's not cost effective ...yet. In Louisiana there was a State and Federal subsidy to help homeowners pay for panels and installation....during those years no advancements were made in making the system cost effective, panels and installation were high , government footed most of the cost....no incentive to make it cheaper , Then the subsidies stopped and overnight that industry evaporated. Without a government subsidy, you can't generate enough electricity to pay for the solar equipment and maintenance of the system. The panels have to be cleaned regularly. It really isn't cost effective but the subsidies have ended so if the companies want to survive they will now have to improve the panels electrical output and make them much cheaper. Before going to far into debt , check out what they are telling you...people will lie to make a buck.
Gary

[MaryB]

I gave a ham radio friend a 50 year old solar panel that was still producing 80% of the original rating. Not bad at all really and you design with that 20% loss in mind.


I checked into solar 4 years ago. It was a 20 year payback and it made no sense to me. Maybe costs have come down....or I maybe I was dealing with a rip off company.

Solar cells do deteriorate over time, so factor that into your numbers.

My cost in northern Michigan is about $.10/kwhr. Not cheap but not too bad either. There will be a point where the cost of solar comes down and electricity gets ever more expensive. If I cannot get an eight year payback, I would not do it. Plus, I can never be totally off the grid. We can get quite a bit of snow and I doubt solar works well with the panels covered.

[RPRNY]

There's no problem. Your "8.7 KW" installation is about capacity. That is, in theory, at peak efficiency, which begins degrading the minute the installation is complete, it could generate 8.7KW. It will never generate anything like 8.7 KW. Probable peak generation is in the 6 KW realm, so your inverter has plenty of extra capacity.

A "thank you" would have been nice, considering my tax dollars are subsidizing your solar panel installation. But then, I suppose neither Tom Steyer, nor Mike Bloomberg, nor Elon Musk, nor any other Big Dem Donor beneficiaries of the @ $6 billion a year in federal solar subsidies alone, nor for that matter the Chinese government, where more than 98% of solar panels installed in this country are made, have thanked you for their cut.

[GaryN]

I was talking to my son last night about power rates. He lives in Honolulu. My power is 9.5 cents per kilowatt hour. He pays 37 cents. Most power in Honolulu is generated by diesel or gasoline generators. They have a lot of people with solar. Then the government cut off the subsidies for the solar. Now they don't get much for the extra power. Hawaii has tried wind farms in the past to generate power. So far all of them have gone belly up. They are talking of doing some again. Even talking about off shore wind farms. The problem is maintenance. I don't know much about solar but if I didn't get a fairly quick payoff of equipment I don't think I would do it unless that was my only option.

[762X51]

Never, ever, ever seen solar work out in a situation like this. I'd have to see the results at the end of the payoff to actually believe it. I just don't believe their ROI calculations...I'm certainly not saying you are lying but the folks selling this stuff are mighty "creative".

[Kosh75287]

Where you live and how you live there is very much your own business, so I offer the following with some hesitation, and full disclosure that I probably know less about powering a household than any who have chimed in. That said, perhaps your goal should be to assure that you always have energy of some type available, rather than just lowering the cost of a single source.

In the process of planning my own "get outta dodge" dwelling, I decided that some hybrid system of power generation would be required (this was for western Oklahoma). Solar panels (plenty of sunshine there) would be a part of it, as would a wind generator (puh-LENTY of wind there), a gas or diesel generator, and electric from the grid, plus a large propane tank would assure that I always have power of SOME sort, at any time. Installation of a gas and an electric system would be a significant cost factor but my dwelling, as designed, would be comparatively small. If your dwelling is somewhat larger, then perhaps what I'M suggesting would be cost-prohibitive.

Just tossing it out there, for you to consider.

[RogerDat]

Let us not forget vampire devices. Chargers and digital TV's or Internet modems or routers that are always drawing a little power. With campers or cabins that use solar to replenish the house battery the ability of solar panels to "keep up" with demand is to a great extent influenced by planning on the load side. The LED lights, energy efficient vent or furnace fan, reduced use or downsizing device, low water use shower heads with on/off (reduce water pump use) and stuff like not leaving a laptop or phone plugged in to a charger. All these choices lead to a usage load that the solar can keep up with.

I recall a rule of thumb for calculation of daily amp output was 50% output for 4 hours and 100% output for 4 hours. One probably doesn't get 100% for 4 hours but for part of the other 4 hours one does better than 50% so it tends to be pretty close to the actual amp output. Then it is just math how many amps do my devices times hours used draw. House batteries storage is in amp hours so I think of it that way but watts per device times amount of time device is used tells you can solar meet the demand. Toaster draws a lot but only for a few minutes TV and satellite box draws less but runs for hours.

I don't know if you have planned for some storage capacity in your house but that can be mighty useful during a power outage. However it may not be price competitive with a generator and fuel, depends on how often and how long you lose power for. Even a small fan to move heat from wood burner around or charge batteries for the LED lantern can make a couple days without power easier.

[bedbugbilly]

Echo - Our place is about 15 miles south of Tucson and we are on Tucson Electric which I assume you are as well. Our house iis 10 years old and built to be energy efficient. Our house is about 1,400 square feet - single story - stucco with cement tile roof. Mine you, we are "snow birds" - we keep the air conditioning at about 80 degrees when we are gone but our highest bill was in August (we weren't here) and that was $100.

I'm just curious -how big of a house and how old is yours? One or two story? What you state for a month average seems high to me even if you are year round resident - or perhaps I am just not burning that much electricity. I have heard others who have moved here about how high the electrical bill is - I don't know where many of them have moved from but I can tell you we pay much more for electricity back in Michigan than we do here.

We are in a 55 plus community and several her have added solar to their roofs but I have never heard just who much they have saved or the pay off on it. We certainly have enough sunlight here to power a system though! LOL

It's just curiosity on my part and no criticism intended - I'm just wondering how old your house is and how energy efficient it is as I would imagine that much of your electrical usage is going towards AC? While the solar may very well be a good move for you, is there any way to make you house mor energy efficient n the process with better insulation, windows, etc. to save on calling/heating when necessary?

We are retired and there is just the two of us which makes a big difference - and we are always conscience about not "wasting" energy but we do keep the house AC running as needed as neither of us like a hot house. Your situation may very well be different - especially if you have a family, kids, etc. which adds to the electricity usage for sure - i.e. more shows, more washing during the week, etc. which can eat up electricity and gas in a hurry.

Good luck with your solar and I hope you'll post how it all works out.

[MaryB]

If you do most of the solar yourself(and it isn't hard if you can do anything mechanical) and have an electrician do just the wiring part solar breakeven can be 7-8 years or less. My system with batteries paid for itself in 5 and it isn't even grid tied. The panels plug into each other so that is easy to do, a junction box with disconnect the panels go to is also pretty easy(remember, this is DC so just 2 wires + and - ). Only thing is do the final connection in the box after dark unless you enjoy playing with high voltage DC! My strings of panels are 87 volts dc in full sun and 15 amps total... it hurts if you brush across it! Get it across both hands and it is lethal!

[Lloyd Smale]

is that break even compared to buying power? Or is it compared to running a generator? I worked for the power company and have a pretty good handle on these price comparisons because we were questioned constantly. A generator is about the worse case senerio. theres some fuel cell technology generators that are closing the gap but like solar they still aren't cost effective unless you have no grid power available. Bottom line is its going to take the average person with the average sized home switching to alternative power (be it solar, wind, or both) an average of about 20 years to get to the break even point with todays efficiency's and costs and even then you will have weeks without wind and days without enough sun to keep charged and about still will need a generator and that's added cost that few talk about.
If you do most of the solar yourself(and it isn't hard if you can do anything mechanical) and have an electrician do just the wiring part solar breakeven can be 7-8 years or less. My system with batteries paid for itself in 5 and it isn't even grid tied. The panels plug into each other so that is easy to do, a junction box with disconnect the panels go to is also pretty easy(remember, this is DC so just 2 wires + and - ). Only thing is do the final connection in the box after dark unless you enjoy playing with high voltage DC! My strings of panels are 87 volts dc in full sun and 15 amps total... it hurts if you brush across it! Get it across both hands and it is lethal!

[Lloyd Smale]

just to reiterate on how dependent we are on power and what that 200 bucks a month buys you. We just had the worse wind storm ive seen up here and I worked as an electrical lineman and have seen some bad ones. Our power was out for 37 hours. Wasn't to bad for me because I'm not stupid enough to rely on just one source of power and have a generator that will run my house but I had 3 neighbors come by for coffee (because they couldn't make any) and none of them had ever been out that long and the joke was that if it would have lasted another couple hours they would have probably killed there wives. Sitting in the dark with a few battery lights with nothing to do but talk to each other. No water pressure to flush the toilets, no showers, no tv, no computer or internet, no stove or microwave to cook supper and no resteraunts open within 25 miles due to the outages, freezers and the food in them all thawed out, no heat and it was down below 50 degrees at night. All of them have a new appreciation of what there electric bill buys them and all three are going today to buy a generator. that's if they can even find one around here because id bet today there isn't one on a shelf in any store in the area. I chuckle at people that balk about a 200 dollar power bill but will pay 200 dollars a month for a smart phone and contract or a 150 bucks a month for cable tv. Or someone like me that doesn't bat an eyelash at spending a couple hundred bucks a month on guns and loading supplys. Or a 200 dollar a month payment of an atv, motorcycle or some other toy. Truth be told you get more for that 200 dollar a month electric bill then you do for about any outlay of money you make. IF you doubt it ill make you this challenge. Shut your breaker off for a week and see for yourself. Sure a few of you can do it but 99 percent of us would be lost without it.

[6bg6ga]

My highest electric bills are in the summer and I've never had one top $130.00 The what I consider lower bills I can atribute to going to LED lights everywhere in the house that the lights are used quite a bit. Common sense when using the dishwasher and other units that take a considerable anount of electricity and produce heat need to be considered. In other words use the electric dryer at a time of day where the heat from it con't contribute to higher room temps and the same goes for the dishwasher.

Would you mind telling us if your home in AZ is a two story? Type of insulation, amount of insulation, type of windows and so forth. I've seen people tie up a goodly amount of money in a home with bad windows, bad insulation or lack of. Everything comes into play.

[6bg6ga]

just to reiterate on how dependent we are on power and what that 200 bucks a month buys you. We just had the worse wind storm ive seen up here and I worked as an electrical lineman and have seen some bad ones. Our power was out for 37 hours. Wasn't to bad for me because I'm not stupid enough to rely on just one source of power and have a generator that will run my house but I had 3 neighbors come by for coffee (because they couldn't make any) and none of them had ever been out that long and the joke was that if it would have lasted another couple hours they would have probably killed there wives. Sitting in the dark with a few battery lights with nothing to do but talk to each other. No water pressure to flush the toilets, no showers, no tv, no computer or internet, no stove or microwave to cook supper and no resteraunts open within 25 miles due to the outages, freezers and the food in them all thawed out, no heat and it was down below 50 degrees at night. All of them have a new appreciation of what there electric bill buys them and all three are going today to buy a generator. that's if they can even find one around here because id bet today there isn't one on a shelf in any store in the area. I chuckle at people that balk about a 200 dollar power bill but will pay 200 dollars a month for a smart phone and contract or a 150 bucks a month for cable tv. Or someone like me that doesn't bat an eyelash at spending a couple hundred bucks a month on guns and loading supplys. Or a 200 dollar a month payment of an atv, motorcycle or some other toy. Truth be told you get more for that 200 dollar a month electric bill then you do for about any outlay of money you make. IF you doubt it ill make you this challenge. Shut your breaker off for a week and see for yourself. Sure a few of you can do it but 99 percent of us would be lost without it.

All are great points.

[scattershot]

Second the LED lights. That has saved us a bundle since we installed them.

[Lloyd Smale]

Yup ive seen people in the south that don't think they need insulation because it doesn't get cold! It takes as much energy to cool a house down there as it does heat one here. I do agree with the led bulb changes and another thing that will knock your electric bill down considerably is a demand hot water heater (something I need to do). Put a bigger bladder on your water pump or even put two of them on so it runs less often. if you have two freezers when theres room combine the food into one and shut the other off. A full freezer will take less power to keep cold then a half full one. Plus your shutting one off. If you have room buy a chest freezer instead of an upright. Every time you open the door on an up right the cold air comes falling out of it. Another easy way to save is to make large meals so that you can keep left overs for the next meal. It takes less power to warm up leftovers then cook a meal. How many thaw food and meat in the microwave? A lb of burger or steak will thaw in an hour or so in cold water in your sink. Add to that unplug ANYTHING that isn't being used. How many things in your house have a digital display or a little red light on 24/7. Use your phone as a phone and never mind face book and it will need to be charged about a third as often. My wife drives me nuts. She takes 20 minute showers, has to rinse dishes in hot water and leaves it run while she does them. Leaves the computer on all night (heck how many here leave a computer on all day long) If shes in the kitchen cooking she has every light in the kitchen on. ect ect. Little common sense goes along ways toward cheaper power.
My highest electric bills are in the summer and I've never had one top $130.00 The what I consider lower bills I can atribute to going to LED lights everywhere in the house that the lights are used quite a bit. Common sense when using the dishwasher and other units that take a considerable anount of electricity and produce heat need to be considered. In other words use the electric dryer at a time of day where the heat from it con't contribute to higher room temps and the same goes for the dishwasher.

Would you mind telling us if your home in AZ is a two story? Type of insulation, amount of insulation, type of windows and so forth. I've seen people tie up a goodly amount of money in a home with bad windows, bad insulation or lack of. Everything comes into play.

[RED BEAR]

Thought my electric bill was cheap until I read others post. My bill rarely goes over $300 per month but the lowest bill I ever had in my life was still $130 per month. But still prefer to flip a switch and have power. As said before looked in to solar before and it would take 20 to 30 years to break even. Panels never put out what they tell you and count last like they say batteries have the same problem. And if you want power on cloudy day you need them. Never take the word of anyone selling anything always do your own research. And take with a grain of salt the glowing reviews and the horrible ones the truth is somewhere in the middle. Beware of Info from someone with a stake in what ever you are doing. Like I say my bill looks pretty high compared to others but after thinking it over its my fault. House is 60+ years old and larger than !e and my better half need even though granddaughter now lives with us. Run pool filter in summer hot tub in winter. Have 3 large aquariums. Have never seen granddaughter turn off anything. All appliances are energy efficient . others talk about power being off for hours try 14 days. Every 2 to 3 years on average lose power for multiple days. The street our house is on is on a line by its self so during outages it is usually the last to get on again. There are a lot more houses on street and think they upgraded the system because the outages are less often now. Anyway starting to ramble on. I hope this works out for you and would like to know how it goes.

[MUSTANG]

Red Bear:

You must live near the Farm my wife had years ago in the Appomatax area. Has to be near it because of the stories she tells of the power going off and staying off for weeks at a time.

[MaryB]

Compared to buying but remember, I had zero labor cost because I can do this myself(electronics tech for 39+ years now).

And panel price are down to 60 cents a watt so you can do a system pretty cheap if you do a lot of the mechanical work yourself if doing electrical is not in your toolbox. Mounting the panel frames, getting the panels mounted, mount all the charge controllers/inverters and have an electrician come in and do the final bits. Size it so you run close to what you use in 24 hours so no worries about power company payback. You use what you produce offsetting any electric bill.

Battery systems add cost, my 24 volt 928 amp hour battery bank of 16 batteries ran $2k. But I see 16+ power outages a year, some last 24+ hours so having heat when it is -20 without having to try and start the portable generator is a huge plus. The pellet/corn stove is 120/12 volt, I run it off the 24 to 12 volt converter that powers my ham radio gear if grid power fails. Plus I run 2 chest freezers and chest freezer converted to a fridge, TV, computers off the battery bank.


is that break even compared to buying power? Or is it compared to running a generator? I worked for the power company and have a pretty good handle on these price comparisons because we were questioned constantly. A generator is about the worse case senerio. theres some fuel cell technology generators that are closing the gap but like solar they still aren't cost effective unless you have no grid power available. Bottom line is its going to take the average person with the average sized home switching to alternative power (be it solar, wind, or both) an average of about 20 years to get to the break even point with todays efficiency's and costs and even then you will have weeks without wind and days without enough sun to keep charged and about still will need a generator and that's added cost that few talk about.

[MUSTANG]

MaryB:

What do you think the life of your batteries will be? Replacement down stream (before System Payoff occurs) drives a longer payback period than most people compute; one of the reasons why I decided not to put PV into the house in Moapa despite the long sunny days for collecting photons most of the year.

[yeahbub]

A co-worker got set up with solar panels at his house as a personal experiment. A very handy fellow he is. One thing he mentioned that cooled my zeal for the idea was the difference in price between what you pay when YOU buy a KWH and the money you get when THEY buy a KWH from you. Big difference. They only pay what a KWH costs them to produce and it isn't much. In Ohio, it takes years to get the investment back by selling power back to the utility. I don't want to rain on your parade, though. This fellow set up a couple of pallets of forklift batteries from an outfit our employer gets them from at the company discount, bought some big inverters to provide 120V/60hz and can run his lights for a few days before he needs some sunlight or has to hook up the generator to recharge them. Most power outages aren't that long, so he figures he's covered. I think he's right, having a source of power and having your own power storage capability enables your system to provide power even when the sun doesn't shine. Being able to operate independent of the grid when necessary without having a noisy generator chattering is a big plus in my book. A running generator is a big "please come steal me" call in some places, as reported after Katrina. It's better if the system is silent.

[shdwlkr]

solar electricity
some things to think about first is of course cost, amount of electric you use or need, how often do you lose power and yes pay back.
solar panels are a lot cheaper than they used to be and that is a good thing
you will need an inverter to take dc current from panels to ac that electric company supplies to your house and get a good one that you can disconnect from the grid if power failure and still have electric in your house during daylight hours if you don't have batteries. Yes batteries are expensive depending on how big a battery backup you need. think $2000-10000. Life of the batteries depends on how many discharges they can handle and how far down they discharge even.
Location of your home and even how the roof faces. What I mean by this is the more south or even south east or west your roof is the more hours of electric production you can get. How many cloudy days you get in a year or no sun days can mean the difference between a solar system that earns its keep or one that is more of a interesting idea.
Yes I am learning more and more about solar power and hope to begin my journey down the solar highway this fall or next spring. I already know that when I get the system done I will be using a lot more electric then I do now because I will have the electric to use at a price that is good for me. I am not really looking at payback more like we do with casting our own bullets and making our own cartridges, it is interesting, provides enjoyment and peace of mind that I can do something for myself and get a reward.
Lastly it is not cheap to get into solar electric, neither is getting into reloading anymore but the enjoyment of being able to do for yourself is in it self a great satisfaction and that is how I look at solar power. How long will it take me to get it totally done I have no idea and really don't care as long as I enjoy the journey, the learning, the fact that I am working to be independent if needed of the electric grid I am happy.
My .03 cents on the subject of solar power YMMV

[Hogtamer]

Great thread, thanks guys.

[Handloader109]

My local coop just installed about 5 acres of solar. They say it will power about a thousand homes. Offering the members the opportunity to purchase a portion of the field. Will give you a discounted off of your bill for 20 years. I figured it was about a 4 or 5 percent return unless power rates go way up.

[MaryB]

Typical for these is 7-10 years, mine are at 7 and just showing some signs of capacity loss, higher quality solar batteries can last 20 years+. So while my system has paid for itself i am looking at investing another $2k in the next 2-3 years probably, but payback on that will be short, under 2 years. Solar panels have a 20 year warranty for 80% capacity, I have excess capacity, my charge controllers actually throw away some energy around noon right now but in 10 years it will be balanced...

Knowing how this all works and being able to do my own install really saves money. And in 3 years the price of lithium batteries may be down to lead acid and I will switch chemistries... lighter, smaller, much longer life...


MaryB:

What do you think the life of your batteries will be? Replacement down stream (before System Payoff occurs) drives a longer payback period than most people compute; one of the reasons why I decided not to put PV into the house in Moapa despite the long sunny days for collecting photons most of the year.

[MaryB]

Some examples

Solar panel 230 watt, 46 cents per watt, $105 per panel. 20 panels will power many homes especially if you start with energy saving BEFORE buying any panels. So $2,100 for panels
Inverter, 4,500 watts 48 volt input for on/off grid use 2,600
MPPT Charge controller $673
Batteries 6 volt 554 amp hour $343 each for a 48 volt bank you need 8 so $2744

Wiring, racking for the panels, rack for the batteries another $2k

So approximately $10k for an on/off grid system that will give you 6-12 hours for critical loads during power outages. Batteries I quoted are long life solar batteries and not the cheap golf cart batteries I am using. For longer backup power you add more batteries! Double the bank would be good for an average house where kids may not understand conservation.

Lifespan is a minimum 20 years for the system. if your bill is $200 a month payback would be ~ 4-7 years(depends on state...), very doable and you would either cut your bill by your production each month or get paid a tiny bit if your state allows that if you produce a surplus each month.

[popper]

Anyone count in the storm damage & insurance costs?

[charles1990]

The only winners in wind and solar are the people who make and sell it. W/O our taxes subsidizing it it would be as dead as the Dodo.

Tesla has NEVER made a dime. Wind farms slaughter birds. Building solar panels and their batteries creates more pollution than a natural Gas power plant would.

A scam pushed by Democrats and suckers.

[MT Gianni]

It was a toss up for me. I have a new house, all LED lighting elec, water heater and pump, freezer and refrigerator. The rest is LP. My elec bill rund $75-90 a month. I have never needed ac in the house. Cost to run Electric service 275 yards, install a transformer, junction box where the old transformer was and 200 ft of service wire all buried was $9500. That was from my employer, no savings given.

[Multigunner]

Too many walnut trees around here to put solar panels anywhere near my house.
The other morning a strong wind blew up and walnuts were hitting the ground like machine gun fire. A storm window I had placed against the fence in the back yard while refurbishing the window frame caught two or more falling walnuts that smashed out the glass.
The walnuts can be found every where after a storm, even a roof top installation wouldn't be safe.

I have considered constructing a simple solar preheater for my water heater. The inlet running through a rack of black PVC tubing mounted on the roof before running to the water heater.
It could also act as fire suppression if a house fire burned through the roof mounted tubing. It would have to be bypassed in the winter of course.

[Lloyd Smale]

ya but youd have to factor in that it may be paid off in 7 years but you also durning that time with your system have to probably buy a new set of batterys 3 times (that's 10k) also replace things that do fail ($?) in that 20 years and at the end start all over with new panels ect and if I'm reading you right that's just to supply "critical load" 6-12 hours in an outage. So basically does what my 400 dollar 5k generator does in an outage. It runs on gas or propane and is hooked to my 500lb hog and could run steady for about any length of electrical outage. It will run my house and my sons apartment without having to shut off anything that includes two freezers and two hot water tanks and the water pump. granted I understand yours also supplys at least a portion of your electricity day to day. I sure wouldn't want to try to live off my generator alone. But for even a once or twice a year outage it works just fine and I can buy propane enough for years for a grand to run it. But a normal 3 bedroom home with 3 kids and a dog that's electric use was similar to the average on grid home would take a lot more of an outlay in cash then what you did. Maybe twice that. I have no doubt it works for some that are willing to put up with sacrifices in the way they use power but most aren't these days. If money was no object id have solar, wind, a automatic diesel generator and still be connected to the grid. But most are building for day to day living not survival and most aren't those people on those shows in Alaska that want to be self sufficient. Bottom line is the cheapest way is still the grid if you can get hooked up. Add 500 bucks for a generator and spend a grand on some propane to keep in reserve for outages if they concern you. Even a 500 dollar generator and a couple 5 gallon cans of gas will get you through 99 percent of outages. If it weren't the cheapest route power companys would either be out of business or lowering there rates to compete. But right now they don't have the need to do either. There still constructing even coal fired plants every day in this country. Some day the technology will no doubt be there. that is if the big power corporations don't snuff it. But it probably wont be in my lifetime.
Some examples

Solar panel 230 watt, 46 cents per watt, $105 per panel. 20 panels will power many homes especially if you start with energy saving BEFORE buying any panels. So $2,100 for panels
Inverter, 4,500 watts 48 volt input for on/off grid use 2,600
MPPT Charge controller $673
Batteries 6 volt 554 amp hour $343 each for a 48 volt bank you need 8 so $2744

Wiring, racking for the panels, rack for the batteries another $2k

So approximately $10k for an on/off grid system that will give you 6-12 hours for critical loads during power outages. Batteries I quoted are long life solar batteries and not the cheap golf cart batteries I am using. For longer backup power you add more batteries! Double the bank would be good for an average house where kids may not understand conservation.

Lifespan is a minimum 20 years for the system. if your bill is $200 a month payback would be ~ 4-7 years(depends on state...), very doable and you would either cut your bill by your production each month or get paid a tiny bit if your state allows that if you produce a surplus each month.

[Lloyd Smale]

When mine was installed it was free. The power company I work for used to give free hookup to new customers as long as it didn't take more then a 3 pole extension and even then the first 3 poles, wire, transformer and service were free. Not any more though. Today like you had to, they charge for everything right down to the nuts and bolts. Change happened about 10 years ago. Like I said in a previous post to many customers (that already got theres for free) complained that they had to absorb the cost of building a line to a new customer. Same used to be for gas and phone company's but today you pay for everything when putting them in too. I have propane and am the only one on the road (I'm on the end of the road) that doesn't have natural gas. The main ends about a 150 feet from my house. It would have to be extended a 100 feet and a service line put in and a meter. they want 7.5 k to do it plus the price of converting all my propane stuff to natural gas. I can buy LOTS of propane for 7k! It would probably pay me to do it if I looked at a 20 year picture considering the difference I price per gallon but I wont probably be around that long. My budget for propane comes to about 150 a month most years and that's to heat my house, my shop and my kids apartment. I sure couldn't even buy firewood to do it all much cheaper and that doesn't even factor in the cost of a boiler big enough to heat them all and my time and energy. yes its cool to be able to say you don't need anyone and can do it all yourself but a lot of us are getting older and cutting wood and even maintaining systems like solar and wind are getting to the point wed have to hire it done anyway and doesn't that put you right back relying on someone else. Theres may days anymore where my back wouldn't even let me go out and fill a wood boiler twice a day.
It was a toss up for me. I have a new house, all LED lighting elec, water heater and pump, freezer and refrigerator. The rest is LP. My elec bill rund $75-90 a month. I have never needed ac in the house. Cost to run Electric service 275 yards, install a transformer, junction box where the old transformer was and 200 ft of service wire all buried was $9500. That was from my employer, no savings given.

[6bg6ga]

Sorry, the math still doesn't add up for me to consider Solar or Wind energy. You have the initial cost of the panels or the genertor, the inverter, and the batterys. You have wear and tear on panels or the generator. Panels can be damaged and so can wind power generators. You have constant maintenance on batterys and inverters and generators. The pay back isn't going to be there for a long long time. The power companies sure they have to purchase the energy that is excess but they don't pay the rate your paying or the rate it actually cost them to produce the power you pay for they pay far less and make money on your investment. Mary, you seem to be proud of being an electronics tech and its a decent job but nothing special I am one also and I know that with all that knowledge we have its still going to cost us for a cup of coffee. To be blunt its child's play to wire up a elementry little solar charging system but you still have to pay an electricion when it comes to hooking to the grid and the same goes with wind power.

Its more of a scam than anything else. How do I know this? Back in the early 80's I worked part time my off hours working with a friend selling wind power genertors and inverters. Mega profit mega costs and solar panels at that time were extremely expensive for what you got. Yes, sure people like Mary and myself and some others on this board are capable of repairing their inverters provided the manufacturer hasn't used house part numbers and we are able to secure replacement for the parts that seem to burn out in those inverters.

Payback... the reality of it is the payback is long and hard coming. The reason and the most overlooked is the maintenance of the system the batterys, the inverters, panels, and generators parts brushes and such.

As mentioned for most the idea of a efficient generator as a back up is probably the best and least expensive option and certainly one to consider in my humble opinion.

[mold maker]

Whether solar and/or wind are viable sources of power is determined by need. Our grandparents lived without power that didn't involve fire. We are tied to the power grid by convenience, not need. Our dependence on electricity is created by the availability of power, and what it does to make life more comfortable, not need
My personal investigation and the experiences of others, make me believe that unless there is no alternative, it's not practical.
However, if you don't mind the original financial outlay, it can be a break-even proposition after 7-13 years if no major break down is encountered.
If temporary replacement in a storm situation is your aim, a generator may be a cheaper alternative.

[Lloyd Smale]

yup and our grandparents (well to be realistic our great grandparents didn't take a bath but once a month MAYBE. If the garden didn't do well they starved. Ive the game population was low they starved and so did there kids. They had to work from sun up to sundown and even longer to just feed there familys, heat there homes and buy fuel for the lanterns. They didn't have entertainment becasuse they were to tired for it at the end of the day. They did this winter summer in 100 degree heat and -30 cold. Then they beat there bodys up so badly most were wore out of dead by the time they hit 60. If that's what you want then go for it. Me ill take modern technology. take a shower every day heat up some lunch in the microwave, turn the knob on the thermostat to get my heat and buy what I WANT to eat at the store. I eat venison and veggies I grow because I like the way they taste not because its all I have to eat. End of the day ill sit in the recliner and watch some tv thank you. I have no more want to live like my great grandpa then I do to go to a dentist without novicane or have me leg sawed off because its infected while I bite down on a chunk of wood:wink: Good old days weren't really so good.
Whether solar and/or wind are viable sources of power is determined by need. Our grandparents lived without power that didn't involve fire. We are tied to the power grid by convenience, not need. Our dependence on electricity is created by the availability of power, and what it does to make life more comfortable, not need
My personal investigation and the experiences of others, make me believe that unless there is no alternative, it's not practical.
However, if you don't mind the original financial outlay, it can be a break-even proposition after 7-13 years if no major break down is encountered.
If temporary replacement in a storm situation is your aim, a generator may be a cheaper alternative.

[mold maker]

Like you say, Loyd, it is your choice and not because of need.
The folks that live beyond the grid, do so by choice also but want to take the modern technology with them as they move farther into the wilderness.
That's how most of the West was settled. It wasn't because they needed gold or electricity.

[MaryB]

No that system is grid tie and will offset most of a 740kwh load per month. The batteries are optional! And the batteries I quoted have a 20 year life span, they are not cheap golf cart batteries like I use. And panel life goes far beyond 20 years! I know of 50 year old panels still in use producing 80% of rated output.


ya but youd have to factor in that it may be paid off in 7 years but you also durning that time with your system have to probably buy a new set of batterys 3 times (that's 10k) also replace things that do fail ($?) in that 20 years and at the end start all over with new panels ect and if I'm reading you right that's just to supply "critical load" 6-12 hours in an outage. So basically does what my 400 dollar 5k generator does in an outage. It runs on gas or propane and is hooked to my 500lb hog and could run steady for about any length of electrical outage. It will run my house and my sons apartment without having to shut off anything that includes two freezers and two hot water tanks and the water pump. granted I understand yours also supplys at least a portion of your electricity day to day. I sure wouldn't want to try to live off my generator alone. But for even a once or twice a year outage it works just fine and I can buy propane enough for years for a grand to run it. But a normal 3 bedroom home with 3 kids and a dog that's electric use was similar to the average on grid home would take a lot more of an outlay in cash then what you did. Maybe twice that. I have no doubt it works for some that are willing to put up with sacrifices in the way they use power but most aren't these days. If money was no object id have solar, wind, a automatic diesel generator and still be connected to the grid. But most are building for day to day living not survival and most aren't those people on those shows in Alaska that want to be self sufficient. Bottom line is the cheapest way is still the grid if you can get hooked up. Add 500 bucks for a generator and spend a grand on some propane to keep in reserve for outages if they concern you. Even a 500 dollar generator and a couple 5 gallon cans of gas will get you through 99 percent of outages. If it weren't the cheapest route power companys would either be out of business or lowering there rates to compete. But right now they don't have the need to do either. There still constructing even coal fired plants every day in this country. Some day the technology will no doubt be there. that is if the big power corporations don't snuff it. But it probably wont be in my lifetime.

[MaryB]

My system is 7 years old. Maintenance so far is a couple gallons of distilled water to top off the batteries and to check the bolts holding the panels down once a year. They have survived 90mph winds and 3/4 inch hail. My system offsets about 1/2 my electric bill each month plus gives me 7 days of backup heat if needed. Plus it powers my ham station 24/7 so if needed I can provide communications which I have done twice when the phone system went down and the cell service for the area(cut fiber optic cable both times).

Yes solar CAN pay for itself in 7 years but it is not for everyone. A grid tie only system removes the battery need and maintenance, you use the grid as your battery by spinning your meter in reverse with excess power and pull from the grid at night when you need power. Downside is no backup power in an outage.

Is solar for everyone? Nope. Is it "green"? Heck no, panels produce toxic waste when made and when recycled. Can it require maintenance? Yup! In areas with little rain panels need to be washed to keep dust ff, I have to sweep snow off in winter... Does it require sacrifices? NOPE, I know a guy in WI who is solar/wind powered and they have AC, use lots of electric appliances... he is to far off the grid to even get power so he produces his own. His backup generator runs about 200 hours a year to provide a power boost as needed.

And I did my entire install, no electrician, just had the electrical inspector sign off on it! I was tired of trying to start a generator at -20 during a snowstorm, lot easier to flip a switch and be back in business with power.

[snowwolfe]

Very interesting thread to read. Totally blown away by how much some of you pay for electric per month. Everything in our 2,300 sq foot house and 1,000 sq foot shop is electric except for a gas water heater. Even our furnance is electric. But it converts to gas if the temp is below 32. We run the AC 16-18 hours a day in the summer.
Our electric bill averages $90-$110 a month, every month of the year. We do supplement with wood heat once in awhile during the winter months. We run two full size freezers and two large and one small refrigerators all the time.

[6bg6ga]

My system is 7 years old. Maintenance so far is a couple gallons of distilled water to top off the batteries and to check the bolts holding the panels down once a year. They have survived 90mph winds and 3/4 inch hail. My system offsets about 1/2 my electric bill each month plus gives me 7 days of backup heat if needed. Plus it powers my ham station 24/7 so if needed I can provide communications which I have done twice when the phone system went down and the cell service for the area(cut fiber optic cable both times).

Yes solar CAN pay for itself in 7 years but it is not for everyone. A grid tie only system removes the battery need and maintenance, you use the grid as your battery by spinning your meter in reverse with excess power and pull from the grid at night when you need power. Downside is no backup power in an outage.

Is solar for everyone? Nope. Is it "green"? Heck no, panels produce toxic waste when made and when recycled. Can it require maintenance? Yup! In areas with little rain panels need to be washed to keep dust ff, I have to sweep snow off in winter... Does it require sacrifices? NOPE, I know a guy in WI who is solar/wind powered and they have AC, use lots of electric appliances... he is to far off the grid to even get power so he produces his own. His backup generator runs about 200 hours a year to provide a power boost as needed.

And I did my entire install, no electrician, just had the electrical inspector sign off on it! I was tired of trying to start a generator at -20 during a snowstorm, lot easier to flip a switch and be back in business with power.

I guess maybe you can get a inspector to sign off on it if you live in the sticks. Where I live you first have to take a test and pass that before you can wire and once you do that you are very limited as to what you can do and then of course there are the fees involved the test fees and the inspection fees. It was all designed to make it so the electricians in the area were the only ones doing the work. Another stick in my side is that we can no longer change a simple gas water heater. Got to show a contractors licence first in order to even purchase a gas water heater and then there are the fees, the building permit and inspection fees. I'm just amazed that they would allow you to wire your system after all an electronics degree doesn't mean much to most people.

[Lloyd Smale]

not quite as bad here but one thing for sure is youll get looked at with a magnifying glass if you do your own. I know the local inspector well. Hes actually not only our electrical inspector but is also the decon at our church. When I wired my pole barn he knew me and knew I did know what I was doing and treated me like a contractor. He basically came over to inspect and had a cup of coffee and gave me a sticker. About the same way he treats the local contractors because he knows them personally. But if my neighbor would have wired his barn it would have had ever outlet and every circuit checked and if ANYTHING wasn't to code he would have walked away. Here you do have the right to do your own home wiring but youd best have a code book and stick to it by the letter. They don't except wiring something that's not code even if it makes sense. He told me VERY few pass inspection the first time and you get charged for every time he comes to inspect. Thankfully I don't foresee having to do major wiring again because hes retired and so am I and I wouldn't get the same treatment today. My barn surely wouldn't pass a close inspection. Its safe and if not safer then code as I used bigger wire then I even needed too but I didn't pay much attention to outlet locations ect. I put them where I wanted and at the level I wanted. Same with switches, fuse panels, wiring for back up power ect. When I first started as a lineman it was a lot more slack. All you had to do was to install an entrance panel one breaker and one light and outlet and you could then get inspected, then after the inspector left do what you want. Not anymore.
I guess maybe you can get a inspector to sign off on it if you live in the sticks. Where I live you first have to take a test and pass that before you can wire and once you do that you are very limited as to what you can do and then of course there are the fees involved the test fees and the inspection fees. It was all designed to make it so the electricians in the area were the only ones doing the work. Another stick in my side is that we can no longer change a simple gas water heater. Got to show a contractors licence first in order to even purchase a gas water heater and then there are the fees, the building permit and inspection fees. I'm just amazed that they would allow you to wire your system after all an electronics degree doesn't mean much to most people.

[Lloyd Smale]

Very interesting thread to read. Totally blown away by how much some of you pay for electric per month. Everything in our 2,300 sq foot house and 1,000 sq foot shop is electric except for a gas water heater. Even our furnance is electric. But it converts to gas if the temp is below 32. We run the AC 16-18 hours a day in the summer.
Our electric bill averages $90-$110 a month, every month of the year. We do supplement with wood heat once in awhile during the winter months. We run two full size freezers and two large and one small refrigerators all the time.

ive allways been told that cost of living is low in TN. You electric rates have to be much lower then the country average. Do you know what a kwh costs there?

[Lloyd Smale]

My system is 7 years old. Maintenance so far is a couple gallons of distilled water to top off the batteries and to check the bolts holding the panels down once a year. They have survived 90mph winds and 3/4 inch hail. My system offsets about 1/2 my electric bill each month plus gives me 7 days of backup heat if needed. Plus it powers my ham station 24/7 so if needed I can provide communications which I have done twice when the phone system went down and the cell service for the area(cut fiber optic cable both times).

Yes solar CAN pay for itself in 7 years but it is not for everyone. A grid tie only system removes the battery need and maintenance, you use the grid as your battery by spinning your meter in reverse with excess power and pull from the grid at night when you need power. Downside is no backup power in an outage.

Is solar for everyone? Nope. Is it "green"? Heck no, panels produce toxic waste when made and when recycled. Can it require maintenance? Yup! In areas with little rain panels need to be washed to keep dust ff, I have to sweep snow off in winter... Does it require sacrifices? NOPE, I know a guy in WI who is solar/wind powered and they have AC, use lots of electric appliances... he is to far off the grid to even get power so he produces his own. His backup generator runs about 200 hours a year to provide a power boost as needed.

And I did my entire install, no electrician, just had the electrical inspector sign off on it! I was tired of trying to start a generator at -20 during a snowstorm, lot easier to flip a switch and be back in business with power.

so if I'm not being to nosey whats your electric bill on average every month for the power your system doesn't supply? How much does your solar system actually save you a month on average?

[6bg6ga]

not quite as bad here but one thing for sure is youll get looked at with a magnifying glass if you do your own. I know the local inspector well. Hes actually not only our electrical inspector but is also the decon at our church. When I wired my pole barn he knew me and knew I did know what I was doing and treated me like a contractor. He basically came over to inspect and had a cup of coffee and gave me a sticker. About the same way he treats the local contractors because he knows them personally. But if my neighbor would have wired his barn it would have had ever outlet and every circuit checked and if ANYTHING wasn't to code he would have walked away. Here you do have the right to do your own home wiring but youd best have a code book and stick to it by the letter. They don't except wiring something that's not code even if it makes sense. He told me VERY few pass inspection the first time and you get charged for every time he comes to inspect. Thankfully I don't foresee having to do major wiring again because hes retired and so am I and I wouldn't get the same treatment today. My barn surely wouldn't pass a close inspection. Its safe and if not safer then code as I used bigger wire then I even needed too but I didn't pay much attention to outlet locations ect. I put them where I wanted and at the level I wanted. Same with switches, fuse panels, wiring for back up power ect. When I first started as a lineman it was a lot more slack. All you had to do was to install an entrance panel one breaker and one light and outlet and you could then get inspected, then after the inspector left do what you want. Not anymore.

I'm not knocking inspection by any means. I've seen stuff sneek past inspectors that is totally wrong. For example I'm low voltage A/V and I have had electricians put 120vac in my conduits or in a floor box that contained mic and line circuits and they didn't use a divider.

[6bg6ga]

I simply don't buy the idea of 20 year old batterys. Looks good on paper but in the real world figure about 50% of that depending on their use/abuse. Temp has a lot to do with battery life also. Ideal yearly temps will yeald longer life but zero, sub zero will cut life considerably. Seven year pay back? Please do print itemized info to confirm payback figures.

[snowwolfe]

ive allways been told that cost of living is low in TN. You electric rates have to be much lower then the country average. Do you know what a kwh costs there?

Base Charges
Customer Charge: $11.71 per month
* Energy Charge:
Summer
First 800 kwh: 8.062¢ per kWh per month
Each additional kwh: 8.062¢ per kWh per month
Winter
First 800 kwh: 7.896¢ per kWh per month
Each additional kwh: 7.896¢ per kWh per month


Hope this helps. Company is called Volunteer Energy Cooperative. Our house was finished Feb 2016. The contractor did an excellent job making sure all the holes were sealed, good windows, etc. It is 2x4 walls with normal fiberglass insulation in the walls and blown in insulation for the attic.

[Echo]

If this is a roof mount the angle of the panels to the sun may derate the panels to work with that 7KW inverter. Most roofs are the wrong angle and pitch to make the best use of the sun. If the earth realigns itself with your panels we'll have more problems than an overloaded inverter. Working load is usually 80% of max load which would be 5,600 watts peak. I have only built offgrid systems but electrical standards are the same.

Pole mounted panels usually have more output with better alignment to the sun and better air cooling. Hot panels produce less electricity. Most gridtie solar firms only do roofmounts. Might be kickbacks from roofers LOL.

If it's going on the roof ask a roofer. Best of luck.

Flat roof, tilt angle optimized, facing South...

[Echo]

Echo - Our place is about 15 miles south of Tucson and we are on Tucson Electric which I assume you are as well. Our house iis 10 years old and built to be energy efficient. Our house is about 1,400 square feet - single story - stucco with cement tile roof. Mine you, we are "snow birds" - we keep the air conditioning at about 80 degrees when we are gone but our highest bill was in August (we weren't here) and that was $100.

I'm just curious -how big of a house and how old is yours? One or two story? What you state for a month average seems high to me even if you are year round resident - or perhaps I am just not burning that much electricity. I have heard others who have moved here about how high the electrical bill is - I don't know where many of them have moved from but I can tell you we pay much more for electricity back in Michigan than we do here.

We are in a 55 plus community and several her have added solar to their roofs but I have never heard just who much they have saved or the pay off on it. We certainly have enough sunlight here to power a system though! LOL


It's just curiosity on my part and no criticism intended - I'm just wondering how old your house is and how energy efficient it is as I would imagine that much of your electrical usage is going towards AC? While the solar may very well be a good move for you, is there any way to make you house mor energy efficient n the process with better insulation, windows, etc. to save on calling/heating when necessary?

We are retired and there is just the two of us which makes a big difference - and we are always conscience about not "wasting" energy but we do keep the house AC running as needed as neither of us like a hot house. Your situation may very well be different - especially if you have a family, kids, etc. which adds to the electricity usage for sure - i.e. more shows, more washing during the week, etc. which can eat up electricity and gas in a hurry.

Good luck with your solar and I hope you'll post how it all works out.

Single Story, about 2600 Sq ft, slump block, no stucco, flat roof bought it new in '74, so it's 43 years old. Good roof and roofer is coming this week to service it.

Roger on the sunlight - I have solar heat for hot H2O, works fine

I use mostly LED's & CFL's, but still have a few incandescent's - got double-pane windows decades ago, and they work nicely, both heat and noise. And water heater is gas.

I'm alone, wife passed away 7 years ago, and no replacement yet, although still auditioning. Don't cook much, utility load is light, used my oven last night for the first time in ages (flat bread pizza - Yum!).

Here's hoping...

[Echo]

My highest electric bills are in the summer and I've never had one top $130.00 The what I consider lower bills I can atribute to going to LED lights everywhere in the house that the lights are used quite a bit. Common sense when using the dishwasher and other units that take a considerable anount of electricity and produce heat need to be considered. In other words use the electric dryer at a time of day where the heat from it con't contribute to higher room temps and the same goes for the dishwasher.

Would you mind telling us if your home in AZ is a two story? Type of insulation, amount of insulation, type of windows and so forth. I've seen people tie up a goodly amount of money in a home with bad windows, bad insulation or lack of. Everything comes into play.

Single story, ~2600 sq ft (4 br), slump block, double pane windows, no stucco, roof well insulated. When we bought the house (1974) three kids were with us...

[Echo]

Sorry, the math still doesn't add up for me to consider Solar or Wind energy. You have the initial cost of the panels or the genertor, the inverter, and the batterys. You have wear and tear on panels or the generator. Panels can be damaged and so can wind power generators. You have constant maintenance on batterys and inverters and generators. The pay back isn't going to be there for a long long time. The power companies sure they have to purchase the energy that is excess but they don't pay the rate your paying or the rate it actually cost them to produce the power you pay for they pay far less and make money on your investment. Mary, you seem to be proud of being an electronics tech and its a decent job but nothing special I am one also and I know that with all that knowledge we have its still going to cost us for a cup of coffee. To be blunt its child's play to wire up a elementry little solar charging system but you still have to pay an electricion when it comes to hooking to the grid and the same goes with wind power.



All maintenance is warrantied - the installing company fixes whatever is broke, does PM's, no expense.

[woodbutcher]

:grin: Re:Solar water heating.When my Father built the house that I grew up in back in 1949,he had a solar heater installed.Worked a treat.As far as I know,it is still going strong.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

[MaryB]

My dad was a state electrical inspector for a couple counties north of me. So when the inspector for my county came out he said I know your dad and I know he beat it into you how to wire right and handed me a sticker. I grew up wiring houses, doing plumbing, construction, drywall, finish work... my parents flipped 2 old houses a year and with 5 kids we were cheap labor(they did pay us minimum wage when a house sold). I have also rebuilt car and truck engines and transmissions... kind of done a lot of everything!


I guess maybe you can get a inspector to sign off on it if you live in the sticks. Where I live you first have to take a test and pass that before you can wire and once you do that you are very limited as to what you can do and then of course there are the fees involved the test fees and the inspection fees. It was all designed to make it so the electricians in the area were the only ones doing the work. Another stick in my side is that we can no longer change a simple gas water heater. Got to show a contractors licence first in order to even purchase a gas water heater and then there are the fees, the building permit and inspection fees. I'm just amazed that they would allow you to wire your system after all an electronics degree doesn't mean much to most people.

[MaryB]

Winter about $50, summer about $75 with 2 window AC units running. I produce almost exactly half what I use, it bounces up and down with weather of course.


so if I'm not being to nosey whats your electric bill on average every month for the power your system doesn't supply? How much does your solar system actually save you a month on average?

[MaryB]

These are not a typical battery, they are built for industrial use and careful watering, never discharge below 50% they do last a very long time! http://www.rollsbattery.com/renewable_energy/ they are also one of the most expensive batteries made... and my battery temp runs around 70 degrees year round so lifespan is extended


I simply don't buy the idea of 20 year old batterys. Looks good on paper but in the real world figure about 50% of that depending on their use/abuse. Temp has a lot to do with battery life also. Ideal yearly temps will yeald longer life but zero, sub zero will cut life considerably. Seven year pay back? Please do print itemized info to confirm payback figures.

[Lloyd Smale]

yup that's some cheap power. Our kwh in over a 11cents a kwh. Your very lucky as that's probably as low as it gets in the whole country.
Base Charges
Customer Charge: $11.71 per month
* Energy Charge:
Summer
First 800 kwh: 8.062¢ per kWh per month
Each additional kwh: 8.062¢ per kWh per month
Winter
First 800 kwh: 7.896¢ per kWh per month
Each additional kwh: 7.896¢ per kWh per month


Hope this helps. Company is called Volunteer Energy Cooperative. Our house was finished Feb 2016. The contractor did an excellent job making sure all the holes were sealed, good windows, etc. It is 2x4 walls with normal fiberglass insulation in the walls and blown in insulation for the attic.

[Lloyd Smale]

we actually use those same batteries for back up power in our electrical sub stations. They do last along time if maintained but like you said sure aren't an inexpensive choice. Probably are much higher quality batterys then are sold with most standard solar packages. Most are sold with batteries that allow them to have a competitive price.
These are not a typical battery, they are built for industrial use and careful watering, never discharge below 50% they do last a very long time! http://www.rollsbattery.com/renewable_energy/ they are also one of the most expensive batteries made... and my battery temp runs around 70 degrees year round so lifespan is extended

[6bg6ga]

My dad was a state electrical inspector for a couple counties north of me. So when the inspector for my county came out he said I know your dad and I know he beat it into you how to wire right and handed me a sticker. I grew up wiring houses, doing plumbing, construction, drywall, finish work... my parents flipped 2 old houses a year and with 5 kids we were cheap labor(they did pay us minimum wage when a house sold). I have also rebuilt car and truck engines and transmissions... kind of done a lot of everything!

Its absolutely great that you have some experience wiring,plumbing, construction,and so forth. When I walked into a factory many many years ago I applied for a machine operators position. I was told bluntly to come back and re-apply when I had held that position before or had suitable experience. I was told basically to go thru training actual training and then I would be considered. I went thru training went back and was hired on the spot. The quest to better myself led to me acquiring more training and experience and finally becoming a master machinist. I'm one of those people that can basically make something from nothing or close to it when you put machines in front of me. I hold two electronics degrees now and have held a master mechanics certifiction since it first came out many years ago. Also hold a refrigeration ticket. having said this I still do not consider myself to be all knowing in any of these fields. I currently work in the A/V field and am responsible for maintaining very large A/V systems across the country. I go to a site and repair what the all knowing have managed to flock up and yes like you I troubleshoot down to the component level and replace defective components in order to restore 100% operational ability. I've done this for 25+years and right now with less than 6 months to my retirement and the ability to collect social security and medicare I'm burned out. Like I said I have a mechanics certification have built many fast rides and still do not consider myself to be an authority in any of them. Not trying to pee on your experience just trying to point out that no matter how good you think you are or how many pieces of paper you hold no one is close to being the very best in their field. Just when you think you are good a new kid steps onto the block and maybe he/she is better than you are.

Lloyd brought out the importance of building codes and wiring codes. These are very important and need to be followed 100%. What I have learned in 25years of doing what I do now and prior fields is your never too good to learn or know too much that you possibly cannot learn something new.


Back to the payback...believe what you may and I will believe what I read on spread sheets that break down very aspect. Imyself considered solar and wind and found that my particular payback wouldn't come until roughly 20 years. Battery technology.... been thru a bunch of that and I would suggest going thru the actual reports instead of what a salesman might be spewing.

[MT Gianni]

I simply don't buy the idea of 20 year old batterys. Looks good on paper but in the real world figure about 50% of that depending on their use/abuse. Temp has a lot to do with battery life also. Ideal yearly temps will yeald longer life but zero, sub zero will cut life considerably. Seven year pay back? Please do print itemized info to confirm payback figures.
Most I have talked to have a buried battery room that evens out temperatures year round.

[Mr_Sheesh]

MaryB - Edison cells or SLAs? Edison (Lead Nickel) batteries last about 100+ years, not cheap but if you find them in good used condition they'll maybe outlast you - Or me anyways!

[MaryB]

Never claimed to be expert! But I CAN do it right and to code. Machining is something I haven't done, and I am teaching myself how to weld(another thing I used to farm out). Jill of all trades and expert at none other than electronics(I have kept up with technology there).

And my electronics experience ranges from consumer to industrial with the last 6 years installing/repairing/modifying slot machines for a local casino. Our shop was considered the best in the country and I got to teach some Russians when they started getting the freedom to run casinos etc. Spent 2 weeks in Russia with the other board level tech and they spent 4 weeks here in the states learning what we do, how to track parts inventory, what to have for spares etc. We kept a 99.9% uptime rate on our slots! If one was down more than a day we got hollered at even if it was a bottleneck in getting parts from the manufacturer.

We had one brand of slot that was a nightmare. Only had 10 of them. They had a hard drive that failed every 2 months, 36" picture tubes mounted vertically for a tall skinny screen that failed every 45 days or so because of the 50kv high voltage they were running the tube at(20% over the tube ratings!!!). I finally got sick of replacing large heavy tubes in a monitor that all together weighed 150 pounds and put a dropping resistor in the anode line. Manufacturer called and asked why we quit buying tubes so I told them. They claimed the tube can handle it 20% over spec... uh huh that was why we were buying them a pallet at a time...

I am not going by battery salesman garbage, I am going by real world experience of people I know who are using Surrette batteries. One guy is 100% off grid and he hasn't changed a battery in 16 years. Yes you pay more, but you get twice the lifespan and when I swap batteries it is going to be for either better lead acid or lithium ion if the prices have come down. I have also been playing with super capacitors so the inverters can handle surge loads better. Mount them right at the inverter to stop voltage droop on surge.

Super capacitors are the up and coming battery technology. Much better lifespan, way smaller in size for equivalent amp hour ratings... but prices are still very high as most new technologies are.


Its absolutely great that you have some experience wiring,plumbing, construction,and so forth. When I walked into a factory many many years ago I applied for a machine operators position. I was told bluntly to come back and re-apply when I had held that position before or had suitable experience. I was told basically to go thru training actual training and then I would be considered. I went thru training went back and was hired on the spot. The quest to better myself led to me acquiring more training and experience and finally becoming a master machinist. I'm one of those people that can basically make something from nothing or close to it when you put machines in front of me. I hold two electronics degrees now and have held a master mechanics certifiction since it first came out many years ago. Also hold a refrigeration ticket. having said this I still do not consider myself to be all knowing in any of these fields. I currently work in the A/V field and am responsible for maintaining very large A/V systems across the country. I go to a site and repair what the all knowing have managed to flock up and yes like you I troubleshoot down to the component level and replace defective components in order to restore 100% operational ability. I've done this for 25+years and right now with less than 6 months to my retirement and the ability to collect social security and medicare I'm burned out. Like I said I have a mechanics certification have built many fast rides and still do not consider myself to be an authority in any of them. Not trying to pee on your experience just trying to point out that no matter how good you think you are or how many pieces of paper you hold no one is close to being the very best in their field. Just when you think you are good a new kid steps onto the block and maybe he/she is better than you are.

Lloyd brought out the importance of building codes and wiring codes. These are very important and need to be followed 100%. What I have learned in 25years of doing what I do now and prior fields is your never too good to learn or know too much that you possibly cannot learn something new.


Back to the payback...believe what you may and I will believe what I read on spread sheets that break down very aspect. Imyself considered solar and wind and found that my particular payback wouldn't come until roughly 20 years. Battery technology.... been thru a bunch of that and I would suggest going thru the actual reports instead of what a salesman might be spewing.

[MaryB]

Problem with them is the need to swap electrolyte yearly and it is some nasty stuff to play with. All water has to be oxygen free etc... there used to be a place in MT making new ones but WOW LiIon is cheaper! SLA is great for a standby battery, not for a working battery that is cycled daily... I have mine setup to disconnect at 50% state of charge and not reconnect until it hits 70% recharge so they are not cycled hard. I have a programmable relay controller that has 4 outputs. I run 3 inverters and set them so the first drops off battery at 40% and the second at 45% and third at 50%. Leaves me headroom to run the TV and computer and ham gear until a recharge. Since the inverters are all 24 volt input I use a solid state relay for switching them in and out of circuit.

My setup is not typical, I did it to run my specific needs. Most run one large inverter on a sub panel with a transfer switch to drop it on/off grid. I have a small transfer switch on each inverter instead. Gives me some redundancy, if I lose an inverter I can quickly move the TV load to grid(or just turn it off and read! I have over 1,000 books on my tablet) so the freezer/fridge still have power. Pellet stove is 12 volts DC so it sits on the dc/dc converter that runs my ham station. Been building some 24 volt light fixtures in rooms where I need the light during an outage. Kitchen, bathroom, and over my desk in the living room.


MaryB - Edison cells or SLAs? Edison (Lead Nickel) batteries last about 100+ years, not cheap but if you find them in good used condition they'll maybe outlast you - Or me anyways!

[6bg6ga]

I always get told what I do is overkill... I prefer it to last versus having to redo it in 20 years! Code requires an outlet every x feet on a wall(forget the number, been 20 years since I wired my house). I hate not having one available when furniture gets placed so I go 1 every 5 feet. Box and and outlet are all of $1 when a wall is opened for new insulation and drywall! Sure it is more labor and I require more circuits per room but it is better than moving something heavy with my bad back.

And I basically apprenticed under my dad when he was just an electrician. I worked summers or 5 years doing rough ins and finish wiring. Trust me, my dad made sure I knew what I was doing!

Plumbing is common sense! Stuff flows downhill! ANYONE can cut and glue PVC or these days crimp on a fitting for pex.

Same for carpentry, studs 16" on center(even when code these days says you can do 2' in some situations, again my build it to overkill!). Doors and windows get a header and jack studs. Sizing a rafter or floor joist can be looked up online these days making it really easy to make sure you have it right. All my construction has been signed off by the inspector and he has complemented my work for being built stronger than needed. Finish carpentry is just putzy work with staining and fitting it all.

I'm sure that you try hard and I'm not trying to pick on you but try to remember that you have no certifications in plumbing, or electrical, and I'm sure I can keep adding to the list. Actually being qualified means you have that piece of paper proving that you have met the qualifications and certifications necessary to obtain that license or degree. An almost or I can do it as good just doesn't cut it. I found that out for myself.

Getting back the the thread.... can we compute costs of an average install figuring a licensed contractor and electrician to put a system together and arrive at total cost so we can actually figure a pay back in years? Lets figure that cost of the battery storage facility that will maintain an average battery temp year around. In other word the WHOLE system costs associated with the construction and maintenance of a charging system.

[Sweetpea]

Whole lot of condescending going on here, it probably should be moved to the pit.

You guys can tell me if it is different where youyou live, but everywhere that I've ever been, if you are a homeowner working on your own home, no license is required. For anything. Inspections are still necessary.

Wiring up solar panels is not that difficult, but I've known plenty of sparkies that would lead you to believe that simply replacing an outlet is magic, voodoo, and against the law, unless you have a liscensed electrician do the work.

[Lloyd Smale]

I was talking to one of the engineers from the power co. I used to work at. For a while our company pushed and sold fuel cells for off grid living and claimed that some day wed all be using them instead of a grid. What they basically are from my understanding is a small very efficient gas turbine that has very few moving and wear parts that is hooked to a generator and charges a battery pack and started and stopped itself and ran on about anything petroleum. Again the downside was battery technology. Your post kind of brought back something he told me recently. He said that capacitors would be the wave of the future, not batterys. He said a small turbine and high efficiency generator hooked to a capacitor would solve the problem but capacitor technology to do it is still a few years out. He said theres a lot of experimenting going on right now and if the big utilitys weren't fighting it at ever corner wed probably be seeing them in use widespread already.
Never claimed to be expert! But I CAN do it right and to code. Machining is something I haven't done, and I am teaching myself how to weld(another thing I used to farm out). Jill of all trades and expert at none other than electronics(I have kept up with technology there).

And my electronics experience ranges from consumer to industrial with the last 6 years installing/repairing/modifying slot machines for a local casino. Our shop was considered the best in the country and I got to teach some Russians when they started getting the freedom to run casinos etc. Spent 2 weeks in Russia with the other board level tech and they spent 4 weeks here in the states learning what we do, how to track parts inventory, what to have for spares etc. We kept a 99.9% uptime rate on our slots! If one was down more than a day we got hollered at even if it was a bottleneck in getting parts from the manufacturer.

We had one brand of slot that was a nightmare. Only had 10 of them. They had a hard drive that failed every 2 months, 36" picture tubes mounted vertically for a tall skinny screen that failed every 45 days or so because of the 50kv high voltage they were running the tube at(20% over the tube ratings!!!). I finally got sick of replacing large heavy tubes in a monitor that all together weighed 150 pounds and put a dropping resistor in the anode line. Manufacturer called and asked why we quit buying tubes so I told them. They claimed the tube can handle it 20% over spec... uh huh that was why we were buying them a pallet at a time...

I am not going by battery salesman garbage, I am going by real world experience of people I know who are using Surrette batteries. One guy is 100% off grid and he hasn't changed a battery in 16 years. Yes you pay more, but you get twice the lifespan and when I swap batteries it is going to be for either better lead acid or lithium ion if the prices have come down. I have also been playing with super capacitors so the inverters can handle surge loads better. Mount them right at the inverter to stop voltage droop on surge.

Super capacitors are the up and coming battery technology. Much better lifespan, way smaller in size for equivalent amp hour ratings... but prices are still very high as most new technologies are.

[Lloyd Smale]

We don't have many outages here. Maybe a couple times a year and there usually only 4-8 hours at most. Last weeks storm was an outage of almost 3 days and that's hands down the longest ive seen. I do agree though (although I'm admitting being pretty lazy here) it was a pain to go out and start the generator. I wish I would have at least bought one with remote start and an automatic breaker. But then just those options would be more then what my whole system cost me. Mine will run on propane but its tough getting it started on propane. So I have to turn the gas on pull it a few times get it warmed up and switch to propane. I did cure on deficiency with it this week. I was set up to run either gas or a 10-100 lb propane tank. I did a bit of plumbing and bought a low pressure regulator and now can run it off my 500lb hog that I use to heat my house or a small tank or gas. So I could go longer then a week if I had too without running for gas. Still have to go out and open my two mains and close in the gen breaker and the breaker for the kids apartment and its sure not going to be easy on fuel but it will get me by on the off chance something like this happens again.
I didn't do my install with an eye on saving money... I was tired of power outages LOL and tired of trying to start a really cold generator!

[Bulldogger]

Winter about $50, summer about $75 with 2 window AC units running. I produce almost exactly half what I use, it bounces up and down with weather of course.


Reading all the posts about typical monthly gas/electric bills I am even more thankful to the Serviceman (lifelong HVAC installer) who owned my house before me. Made in 1956, it's 4 bedrooms and finished basement with a large add-on garage and den with fireplace.
BAD winter months my combined bill is under $200, and I still have single pane windows with storm windows in the back bedrooms and a single pane bay window (I keep a plastic storm window over it year-round since it doesn't open anyway).

My typical monthly bill in summer for electric rarely crests $100.

I was not eligible for grid-tied solar when I moved into my large house, but have followed it with interest as a DIY kind of guy. Northern Virginia is just warming up to allowing reverse-spinning meters, and some Solar companies are now sending people around to offer free quotes. I quizzed the guy for an hour, which he enjoyed because I am electrically-savvy and have been following the numbers and technical aspects of this for years. At the end though, he saw how little power I use monthly and admitted I might never pay back the install. I wanted a quote, but am waiting to see if they sign a contract with an energy storage company, which I could have wired for off-grid use during outages.

That said, I doubt that a contractor-installed setup would work for me, because of my low power consumption. If I bought newer freezers and fridges (I have two of each), it would get even lower.

BUT, if I reduce my consumption even farther, I would seem well-positioned to go off-grid or to some kind of on and off status as desired if I make my own setup like MaryB's (you don't mind driving out to help me install it do ya Mary?).

My plan was/is to buy dead electric forklifts at auction when they come up and salvage the batteries and scrap the rest, which could keep battery costs down. I don't know if that would work ell, since the batteries would be in varied states of remaining longevity. Could buy new if I got a windfall, of course. The LiIon setups from Tesla or Mercedes Power would be nice, but expensive, whereas you can buy/find wet cell batteries one at a time as your budget allows.

Then there's local wind, using converted high frequency permanent magnet washing machine motors on vertical vane drum-shaped blades... Don't get me started. I have dreams. Sunny, windy dreams!

Bulldogger

[rancher1913]

Code is the absolute minimum allowed, most people think code is the gosiple, basically if your doing it to code that's just safe enough to get by. And before anybody starts preaching to me, I hold ten trade licenses that encompass everything from master plumber to refrigerant

[6bg6ga]

Code is the absolute minimum allowed, most people think code is the gosiple, basically if your doing it to code that's just safe enough to get by. And before anybody starts preaching to me, I hold ten trade licenses that encompass everything from master plumber to refrigerant

I absolutely agree with you. Generally code is very easy to meet and most of us concerned about doing a good job that won't come back and bite us in the behind know this and always go above and beyond. I take my hat off to you sir for bringing this to light.

[6bg6ga]

Whole lot of condescending going on here, it probably should be moved to the pit.

You guys can tell me if it is different where youyou live, but everywhere that I've ever been, if you are a homeowner working on your own home, no license is required. For anything. Inspections are still necessary.

Wiring up solar panels is not that difficult, but I've known plenty of sparkies that would lead you to believe that simply replacing an outlet is magic, voodoo, and against the law, unless you have a liscensed electrician do the work.

You could be right in the fact that living in remote areas allows one a bit more freedom to do things. I surely don't enjoy that freedom where I live.

[MaryB]

Wiring,plumbing, and basic construction is NOT rocket science. Besides working for my dad in summer we also did 2 houses a year that we fixed and sold. Everything passed inspection. The only thing I refuse to touch are gas lines and concrete(although I did tend block for both houses my parents built). I also helped my parents build 2 houses from a hole in the ground! First one went from bare foundation to closed in in 4 weeks. Building codes are readily available online, making sure you use proper sized lumber is dirt simple, lumber yard will make a recommendation but now ALL the info you need can be found online.

If it passes inspection it is done right, if it fails you fix it and get it inspected again!

I'm sure that you try hard and I'm not trying to pick on you but try to remember that you have no certifications in plumbing, or electrical, and I'm sure I can keep adding to the list. Actually being qualified means you have that piece of paper proving that you have met the qualifications and certifications necessary to obtain that license or degree. An almost or I can do it as good just doesn't cut it. I found that out for myself.

Getting back the the thread.... can we compute costs of an average install figuring a licensed contractor and electrician to put a system together and arrive at total cost so we can actually figure a pay back in years? Lets figure that cost of the battery storage facility that will maintain an average battery temp year around. In other word the WHOLE system costs associated with the construction and maintenance of a charging system.

[MaryB]

F&P washing machine motors, Backshed forum in Australia has a ton of info on them. They will reliably produce about 500 watts.

Many forklifts are 36 volts while many inverters are 24 or 48 volt...


Reading all the posts about typical monthly gas/electric bills I am even more thankful to the Serviceman (lifelong HVAC installer) who owned my house before me. Made in 1956, it's 4 bedrooms and finished basement with a large add-on garage and den with fireplace.
BAD winter months my combined bill is under $200, and I still have single pane windows with storm windows in the back bedrooms and a single pane bay window (I keep a plastic storm window over it year-round since it doesn't open anyway).

My typical monthly bill in summer for electric rarely crests $100.

I was not eligible for grid-tied solar when I moved into my large house, but have followed it with interest as a DIY kind of guy. Northern Virginia is just warming up to allowing reverse-spinning meters, and some Solar companies are now sending people around to offer free quotes. I quizzed the guy for an hour, which he enjoyed because I am electrically-savvy and have been following the numbers and technical aspects of this for years. At the end though, he saw how little power I use monthly and admitted I might never pay back the install. I wanted a quote, but am waiting to see if they sign a contract with an energy storage company, which I could have wired for off-grid use during outages.

That said, I doubt that a contractor-installed setup would work for me, because of my low power consumption. If I bought newer freezers and fridges (I have two of each), it would get even lower.

BUT, if I reduce my consumption even farther, I would seem well-positioned to go off-grid or to some kind of on and off status as desired if I make my own setup like MaryB's (you don't mind driving out to help me install it do ya Mary?).

My plan was/is to buy dead electric forklifts at auction when they come up and salvage the batteries and scrap the rest, which could keep battery costs down. I don't know if that would work ell, since the batteries would be in varied states of remaining longevity. Could buy new if I got a windfall, of course. The LiIon setups from Tesla or Mercedes Power would be nice, but expensive, whereas you can buy/find wet cell batteries one at a time as your budget allows.

Then there's local wind, using converted high frequency permanent magnet washing machine motors on vertical vane drum-shaped blades... Don't get me started. I have dreams. Sunny, windy dreams!

Bulldogger

[6bg6ga]

I was talking to one of the engineers from the power co. I used to work at. For a while our company pushed and sold fuel cells for off grid living and claimed that some day wed all be using them instead of a grid. What they basically are from my understanding is a small very efficient gas turbine that has very few moving and wear parts that is hooked to a generator and charges a battery pack and started and stopped itself and ran on about anything petroleum. Again the downside was battery technology. Your post kind of brought back something he told me recently. He said that capacitors would be the wave of the future, not batterys. He said a small turbine and high efficiency generator hooked to a capacitor would solve the problem but capacitor technology to do it is still a few years out. He said theres a lot of experimenting going on right now and if the big utilitys weren't fighting it at ever corner wed probably be seeing them in use widespread already.

Actually there is some info out there on using caps in place of batterys for storage. I've read several accounts of people replacing their car batterys with a bank of caps. The info indicates it seems to work at least in cars.

[454PB]

I tend to agree with Lloyd. I too worked in the electric utility business, but I was in the generation side. Most people that use alternative power, but count on a power supplier to provide additional watts when needed fail to realize that the generation and distribution has to be built for worst case scenarios. So the utility has to invest the infrastructure to supply their customers as if the alternative supply doesn't really exist. In my state, they are also forced to buy any residual power the customer generates at a rate fixed by the public service commission. 10 years ago, that wasn't too big a deal, but now private companies are building large solar and wind farms that may or may not be dependable. The utility has to have the generation and distribution capability as if the alternative source didn't exist.

[abunaitoo]

We might have the highest electricity rates in the country.
Combination on monopoly, poor government, and everything having to be shipped in.
I wish I could afford to get solar.
I would buy and not lease it.
I'd get it with batteries and a generator back-up.
Off the grid completely.
If i were to win a lottery, I would completely do the roof. New panels and all. Then install the solar.
We have sun, and no snow, all year round. Would save lots of money.

[Mr_Sheesh]

I once helped a blind friend do some updating of her wiring, she needed more outlets in the basement. I made sure power was out & told her which wires were which colors and explained how to do it, I've rewired more than one house (My mom's place, we almost tripled the breakers in the place, it quit popping the breaker when you turned the lights on in the garage and had the kitchen lights on + anything in the master bathroom... 1 breaker per circuit and 12 Ga. wire instead of 16 Ga and suddenly things got LOTS better.) Passed the code test in suburbia there nicely. It "may" help that I've been studying electronics since the 60s :)

Also have fixed an idiot I know's issues in plumbing - You don't want to just (over and over despite being told how bad it is!) use just whatever random scrap of pipe you have, so that water supply like runs Iron, Copper, Plastic, Iron, Copper, Iron, Plastic, Iron, Plastic, Copper, Iron pieces in 20 feet of run, you want it all the SAME material. Prevents problems like galvanic corrosion (where the Iron and Copper act as a battery & corrode causing leaks...)

It's all been in books & Now's definitely on the web, do look for the "Gotchas" same as in any technology.

[Lloyd Smale]

if I won the lotto and money was no factor id be doing it too. thing is very few of us win the lotto and have to look at cost reality. Today that reality still favors the power companys and the grid.
We might have the highest electricity rates in the country. At 60 years old its a roll of the dice that id even be around when the costs broke even.
Combination on monopoly, poor government, and everything having to be shipped in.
I wish I could afford to get solar.
I would buy and not lease it.
I'd get it with batteries and a generator back-up.
Off the grid completely.
If i were to win a lottery, I would completely do the roof. New panels and all. Then install the solar.
We have sun, and no snow, all year round. Would save lots of money.

[6bg6ga]

I'm still not on the wagon with the proposed pay back numbers. To me its a loosing proposition no matter how you look at it. Unfortunately most here do not have a clear understanding of how to go about figuring a pay back. Luckily in 09 we purchased a new home with 2X6 walls and one that was energy efficient. My electric and gas bills are in my opinion very low unlike the prior home we owned that had utilities 3X more than our present home and had a fraction of the square footage.

If I won the lottery I would probably move to AZ buy a tract of land and take a good look at a solar farm with up to date technology.

[HATCH]

I sure don't see a lot of condescending posts here or ANY personal attacks. Just some people that have been there and done that that might have came away with slightly different opinions. If you don't want someone elses opinion you should steer clear of an internet forum period! Seems to me your last paragraph is in anything a bit condescending toward licensed electricians.

This is exactly correct. I have reviewed this thread and that is my thoughts.


On residential electricity new construction (anything requiring a permit) then it has to be inspected to make sure its up to code (as stated in this thread already)
Yes there are people that are licensed to do this type of work. It cost money.
For the most part, I can do ANY home electricial work and do it to standards set forth in the 2017 NESC Handbook.

Please keep in mind that we all have done stuff in the past. We all come from different backgrounds (as far as what we do/did for a living).

Because you can do electrical work doesn't make you a electrician just like because you can hammer a nail and saw a piece of wood doesn't make your a carpenter.

Talking about your past experiences or your thoughts is what makes CB great.
It is allowed and encouraged.

Now to get back to the current discussion....


I can't tell you the exact figures because its been a couple years since I worked at this company but we did install 4 large solar panels on the roof on my building.
This was a demo because the company I worked for was/is a energy management company.
What I was told by the owner, SCEG (the local electrical provider), would charge you x amount per KWH you used but then only pay 1/2 of x for KWH you sold back to the grid.
They didn't sell a lot back because during the summer the 4 panels did not produce enough to cover the 4 buildings usage except maybe on the weekend when it was unoccupied.
But at the end of the month we always used more then we made.

Now, I have a friend in Charleston (SC) that also has SCEG.
He get a check every month from SCEG because he produces WAY more then he uses. He works all the time and most evenings are spent at his elderly mom's house.

I can't have solar panels here because of my HOA.
If I ever win the lotto, I will have a solar farm with a bunker underneath it. Yeah I am crazy like that.

Anyway, I am enjoying the conversation in this thread and thanks for keeping it civil.

[6bg6ga]

I applaud people for trying to do things themselves but there comes a time when one should simply bail out and let a qualified person do it. I would be the last one to attempt to build a wall for example. Yes, I could do it and I'm sure it would pass code but it wouldn't be pretty. The usage of a qualified contractor a qualified electrician is paramount. Sometimes people need to step aside and let someone more qualified in to do the job.

I also saw no instances in the thread so far where there were any condescending comments or personal attacks. I'm still looking for information on how some have arrived at say a seven or ten year payback on thee systems when I have had information that claimed far more than a ten year payback.

[HATCH]

I can help you with the ROI information.

Its pretty easy to explain.

Cost figures of system is just #s

System size 8Kw
System cost - $10K
Panel life 25 years
Amount power company to pay 6 cents per KW
Amount power company charges per kw 11 cents

if you sold back 100% of the power generated.
Yearly income $480 (4.8 % return on your investment)
Time to recoup investment - 20.8 years

Now, lets say you used all the power you generate
Yearly savings - $880.00 (8.8 ROI)
Time to recoup investment - 11.4 years

Whenever you are discussing energy savings with any company you need to ask them for the ROI (return on investment)
This is a HUGE factor when your going to spend money to save money.

The company I use to work for dealt with DDC (direct digital controls). Basically its like a computer that controls your AC/HEAT (HVAC) system.
The average ROI was 2.5 years. The life of the controls was 20 years
There was a school district in the upstate that invested $100K in a system to control their HVAC. It saved them $50K in electricity a year.
So after 2 years it paid for itself.
We installed controls at the USMC Air Station at Parris Island.
Don't quote me on this figure, but it was almost $1 mill in savings per year. The ROI was 1.5 years.
This is what happens when you go from NO control to 100% control.'

The future is SOLAR but the question is when to invest.
The technology changes so rapidly. The efficiency of the panels has changed so much in the past few years that its almost worth it if you installed a older system to upgrade the panels.
not to mention the durability of the panels has also increased.

[rancher1913]

personally I think solar is to electric companies like cell phones were to ma bell, she had the attitude that cell phones were a fad and everybody needed a land line. our electric rates are 14 cents per kw and every year they go up again and like I said I have to pay a hundred bucks a month even if the breakers are off. I am working on going full solar, so far have one well compleatly solar and will do the other soon then start on the main system. I figure the well roi is about 1 year. when I retire I do not want any monthly bills and especially no monthly bills that keep going up when my income is fixed.

[MaryB]

MN is one of the few states that pays retail rate(9 cents per kwh) for any buyback electricity a solar install produces. So many in MN are doing systems. I know of 50 or so in a 10 mile radius, one is 3 sets of 8 panels on full axis trackers! Another is similar to my mounting method, few feet of the ground behind the farmers new pole barn. he has 80 panels back there at a ~44.5 degree tilt. Tracking can gain 20% in energy but it is extremely expensive and with panels dirt cheap now it is easier to just install 20% more panels.

And there is a huge solar farm going in SW of me about 20 miles.

I prefer to not deal with the power company and just run part of the house off grid with transfer switches to drop back on grid as needed.

[abunaitoo]

The solar industry here is kind of dying.
Electric company (monopoly) used to give full market rate credit for any power going back to the grid.
Now they give less than half credit back.
They also came up with an excuse to restrict the number of solar systems. Something about overloading the grid.
We now have less than half of the companies that we used to have.
Prices have gone up and there are less choices.
Plus the state has added all kinds of fees and inspection cost to things.
I've heard of people having to wait almost a year to finish the solar installation.
Price we are forced to pay for living here.
At least the sunshine is still free..................for now. .