I've Never Seen A 30-06 Case Like This

[vzerone]

Gentlemen, here's a 30-06 case that I've never seen. What is different about it is the circular groove around the primer. This makes me think of the cases made for rifles that use a tubular magazine and the groove is to catch the pointed tip of the bullet from contacting the primer. As you can see it's an RA 45 which I presume to be Remington Arms 1945. Anyone have any information on this?

205774

[roysha]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that that is one very serious crimp because if memory serves me correctly, which at my age is questionable, that particular batch was known to be very hot and presumably meant to be fired in machine guns. There are reports, (sisters best friend's cousin twice removed type) of it damaging Garands. I don't know whether to give that whole scenario much credence since in a military situation, it would seem to me that interchangeability of same caliber ammunition would be a very highly desirable. That's my story and I'm sticking to it, sorta, maybe.

[vzerone]

Well that's interesting that you mentioned "machinegun ammo" because as far as I've researched there was no specifically made ammo for machineguns. Can you shed some light on that?

I also though that it may have been some sort of crimp groove.

[Boolit_Head]

Is it me or does that primer look a bit larger than a large primer even with the crimp groove?

[vzerone]

Is it me or does that primer look a bit larger than a large primer even with the crimp groove?

It's the same as our large rifle today. You're right thought that it appears larger.

[trails4u]

http://www.ammo-one.com/30-06PIC3.html

The photo here just described it as crimped.....and is very similar to the RA 45 you have. Not that this is definitive.....but it's something... ??

[vzerone]

http://www.ammo-one.com/30-06PIC3.html

The photo here just described it as crimped.....and is very similar to the RA 45 you have. Not that this is definitive.....but it's something... ??

I think that is a BINGO for you! That RA 42 looks identical to mine. To me it settles it as pretty much a circular crimp. Thanks

[TNsailorman]

I picked up a few of those on a range years ago. They loaded and shot just the same as my other WW II brass. I was curious about them but never bothered to try to research them. I don't even know if I have any of them left. Mine was marked R A also, which was the Remington head stamp. I have some Korean War R A head stamp cases also.

[Outpost75]

Aircraft ring crimp.

[vzerone]

Aircraft ring crimp.

Now that's an interesting thing Outpost. I would say they sure didn't want a primer to pop out on an aircraft machine gun where they couldn't remedy it right away!

[GONRA]

GONRA's pretty sure this loaded round is in my Modest Cartridge Collection.

[fatelk]

I've seen a lot of those over the years; they all loaded and shot fine after removing the crimp. I was told long ago that it was ammo for aircraft use, like Outpost says.

[762sultan]

I received a can of loose M2 AP several years ago and was told that it was going bad. I pulled all the bullets and many had wet clumpy powder inside. I deprimed all of them and cleaned them up and went to seat new primers and when I went to ream the pockets there were a lot with this type of ring on the bottom of the case. They work in my 03 Springfield just fine.

[roysha]

Aircraft ring crimp.

Perhaps that is where the reference to "machinegun ammo" came from. Certainly I'm no authority by the wildest stretch of the imagination and was just passing on a "myth?' of yore.

[Eutectic]

Remington manufactured military (RA) .30-06 had that unique way they crimped the primer. I've seen it in WW1 .30-06 ammo up until the end of WW2. I don't believe it was specific for any particular use and could be used in any weapon when the .30-06 round was specified.

Eutectic

[Mytmousemalibu]

For aircraft use makes a lot of sense. Not even in say a waist gunner position on a B-17 which it would still be preferred. More along the lines of say a plane with wing mounted machine guns that the pilot has no chance of remediation in the air. Also would explain the brass being somewhat scarce since most of it went overboard in flight. Very interesting! Looks like a 8mm Lebel case head!

[dbosman]

Here are some more examples of a large ring crimp.205853205854

[vzerone]

Let's not get an internet myth started on this type of primer crimp being specific for aircraft machine guns. So far all we have are suppositions. When we get some concrete proof, then we're talking.

[StratsMan]

I've also seen many WWI '06 rounds with this type of crimp... I just assumed that was normal manufacturing for technique at the time...

[45-70bpcr]

Let's not get an internet myth started on this type of primer crimp being specific for aircraft machine guns. So far all we have are suppositions. When we get some concrete proof, then we're talking.

It says "For Aircraft use only" on the box :-)

[vzerone]

It says "For Aircraft use only" on the box :-)

Ya got me fair and square . I didn't blow the picture up and didn't see that. Thanks Well I have to take back what I said. Now we have proof. Boy, I sure got caught with egg on my face!!!!!!!!

[45-70bpcr]

Ya got me fair and square . I didn't blow the picture up and didn't see that. Thanks Well I have to take back what I said. Now we have proof. Boy, I sure got caught with egg on my face!!!!!!!!

No egg! It was small print :-) I have never seen such a round. Something new on here to see here everyday.

[w5pv]

This is the learning channel

[dverna]

It says "For Aircraft use only" on the box :-)



OH!!! Now I understand. Loaded really hot to shoot down planes so it needed a super crimped in primer. LOL

[TNsailorman]

I am not an aircraft expert but I can only remember one American fighter plane that entered WW II with .30-06 machine guns, the very early Curtis P-40. The Mustang, Hellcat, Corsair and the P 47 all had .50 Brownings. The British Spitfire had .303 guns (if I remember correctly), the Japanese Zero had 2 each 7.7 machineguns and 2 each 20mm cannons on it. Navy dive bombers did have .30-06 machine guns (both front and rear). I would very much be interested in just why aircraft machineguns would need dual crimp primers (if that is what they are). Maybe someone with more of an engineering background than I can provide more information. Interesting topic though, james

[Multigunner]

There were still quite a few pre 1940's aircraft in USAF inventory armed with .30-06 wing or cowl guns, as well as flexible guns. Most of these wouldn't have lasted long against the Japanese aircraft of the time so you don't hear much about them.
In the Philippines a few Obsolete P-26 "Peashooters" were still in service when the Japanese invaded.

Also advanced trainers usually had .30 guns for target practice. Also the US supplied .30 ammunition to many countries that still had older aircraft.

Contrary to the internet mythology there were loads intended only for use in aircraft and antiaircraft MG emplacements and for use against enemy AFVs.

Most Infantry rifles were built with a safety margin that allowed for infrequent use of the hottest MG loads, but not as a steady diet.
The Germans at one time issued a single five round clip of a very hot loaded Tungsten core AP round to each soldier, only to be used in an emergency.
Some German 7.92 Aircraft gun loads generated pressures as high as the hottest proof test loads of the time.

[vzerone]

There were still quite a few pre 1940's aircraft in USAF inventory armed with .30-06 wing or cowl guns, as well as flexible guns. Most of these wouldn't have lasted long against the Japanese aircraft of the time so you don't hear much about them.
In the Philippines a few Obsolete P-26 "Peashooters" were still in service when the Japanese invaded.

Also advanced trainers usually had .30 guns for target practice. Also the US supplied .30 ammunition to many countries that still had older aircraft.

Contrary to the internet mythology there were loads intended only for use in aircraft and antiaircraft MG emplacements and for use against enemy AFVs.

Most Infantry rifles were built with a safety margin that allowed for infrequent use of the hottest MG loads, but not as a steady diet.
The Germans at one time issued a single five round clip of a very hot loaded Tungsten core AP round to each soldier, only to be used in an emergency.
Some German 7.92 Aircraft gun loads generated pressures as high as the hottest proof test loads of the time.

There were quite a few aircraft still using the 30 caliber machine guns mostly the ANM2. Dauntless dive bomber, Avenger torpedoe bomber, PBY Catalina, TBD Devastor to name a few.

Not to argue with you, but I would like to see some proof of the "hotter" machine gun specific ammo you speak of. Not talking about the special primer crimp stuff. This is one thing I've been researching for many years. Nobody has come up with proof. None of the military manuals for ammuniation type have any mention of it either. The German machine gun ammo was very obvious. I've even fired some of it and to say it's hot is an understatement.

[Mytmousemalibu]

The need for extra heavy primer crimping is two fold. The rounds being hotter required a better primer retention which is part of the other equation, reliability.

It aircraft use, the upmost reliability is needed because it may be at best, very difficult to clear a fouled up gun if it spits out primer into the action or it might be flat out impossible to remediate except on the ground. Historically aircraft mounted guns tend to a much higher rate of fire even if it is otherwise the same as a model that is used on the ground. In air to air combat, you are up against fast moving targets and have only fleeting chances to engage them so a higher rate of fire is necessary to get hits in quick. Hotter ammo may or may not be a component to higher rate of fire but extra powerful rounds may also be a factor in effective hits on the target, maybe improved trajectory? Either way, you can't afford to have a jammed up gun in an air to air battle with limited ammo quantity, limited chances of engagement, etc.

[vzerone]

The need for extra heavy primer crimping is two fold. The rounds being hotter required a better primer retention which is part of the other equation, reliability.

It aircraft use, the upmost reliability is needed because it may be at best, very difficult to clear a fouled up gun if it spits out primer into the action or it might be flat out impossible to remediate except on the ground. Historically aircraft mounted guns tend to a much higher rate of fire even if it is otherwise the same as a model that is used on the ground. In air to air combat, you are up against fast moving targets and have only fleeting chances to engage them so a higher rate of fire is necessary to get hits in quick. Hotter ammo may or may not be a component to higher rate of fire but extra powerful rounds may also be a factor in effective hits on the target, maybe improved trajectory? Either way, you can't afford to have a jammed up gun in an air to air battle with limited ammo quantity, limited chances of engagement, etc.

Think about it. We have cartridges that operate from a very low pressure range to up to 65,000 psi. No provisions are made for the high pressure one. If a primer pocket is the correct size and the primer fits as tight as it is suppose to the pressure range of the cartridge has nothing to do with the crimp.

I had earlier sent a pm to Larry Gibson and questioned his vast knowledge on this subject and he concurred that there was no special aircraft ammo for the U.S. other then how they may have mixed the cartridges up to types of bullets suited to shooting down aircraft such as tracers, AP, armor piercing incendary, etc., but the pressure were very similar.

I've read many official military documents on muniations used in WWII and not nary a mention of a special hot loaded round especially for aircraft machine gun ammo. I'm pretty sure if the U.S. had it that it would be marked very well as to not get into the hands of soldiers using it for rifles. Larry also said that there was no special ammo for the M60 besides the standard ball ammo and tracer. He further more stated, as I knew already, that Germany had a much hotter round for machine guns.

[45-70bpcr]

This picture doesn't show the crimp but another clearer box marked "For Aircraft Use Only" And it instructs you to gather the fired casings asap and soak in soda water? How and why would any soldier gather the casings to clean them especially in an aircraft? Very weird.

205990

[vzerone]

This picture doesn't show the crimp but another clearer box marked "For Aircraft Use Only" And it instructs you to gather the fired casings asap and soak in soda water? How and why would any soldier gather the casings to clean them especially in an aircraft? Very weird.

205990


You're right about the collecting the casings part. The soak in baking soda is because they had corrosive primers in them.

Did you know that one of the reasons they started using the metal link belts? Because back in the day when they were using machine guns in those fabric cloth covers bi-planes, 1. The cloth belts slaps the gunner nearly to death in the wind, and 2. If it didn't hit him it hit the fabric and tore holes in it. So they came up with the disintergrating link belt. This was for the U.S. and imagine it may have applied to other countries. Possibly more reasons then those two.

Only other thing I found on U.S. 30 caliber machine gun ammo is that is used a heavier ball, but later on they loaded it for the rifles too and named it M2 Ball.

Other then the bullets having Incendiary heads, I can't think of any reasons besides what we discussed about the primer to make them for use in aircraft only. I don't think they wanted to use incendiary for rifles in ground fighting. Probably would have been against the war rules.

[Mytmousemalibu]

Perhaps that is the case regarding the pressure, I haven't a clue to be honest but the extra crimping is justified in the case of aircraft use.

[elmacgyver0]

Mercuric primers, the mercury attacks brass and weakens it.

[jrmartin1964]

The "Aircraft Only" ammunition was not loaded "hotter", it carried a heavier bullet. As such, the ballistics (trajectory) was significantly different from the ammunition intended for ground-based troops. The major reason it was labeled for aircraft was that its trajectory did not correspond to the graduations on the "rifles of the day", the 1903 Springfield and the 1917 Enfield. Additionally, with the introduction and adoption of the M1 Garand in the 1930s it was found that the heavier bullet contributed to bent operating rods and other difficulties.

[Drm50]

I have herd the aircraft ammo thing too, but thought it was BS. Back in early 70s I bought a case
of French 9mm. They were in boxes in a weird number, 36 or 32 rds, I think. Any way at the time
I had a P38, Colt Commander, Brn HP and S&W 39. The Brn Hp wouldn't put it off, it would on
second strike. The P38 & Colt functioned ok with it. The S&W 39 was my main shooter in 9mm
because of adj sights. It functioned with this ammo also. I had the fram crack on the S&W and took in to Gunsmith. He ask about ammo and I showed it to him. He said that ammo wrecked your
pistol. He said it was submachinegun ammo designed for open bolt firing it was loaded hotter, since Im careful to find out about military ammo that I'm going to shoot.

[Multigunner]

Hot loaded 9mm SMG ammo is a well recognized fact.
If you could find a previous thread on this sort of thing IIRC Gibson mentioned extra hot .30 ammunition being manufactured for use in the 1919a6 I think in the 60's or later. The A6 had several different muzzle caps for use with various bullet weights and power levels.

The .30-06 M1 Ball was designed for long range use in MGs, but despite slightly higher chamber (50k CUP vs 48K CUP)pressure than .30 Ball ammunition of the time the 03 and 1917 had the margin of strength necessary to handle it. The Garand gas system proved problematic when 1930's M1 ball using slow burning powders was used so they standardized on the M2 Ball. They later manufactured M1 Ball with a faster powder but it still damaged Garand Op-rods if the gun was not well lubed or in icy or sandy conditions.
The M1 ball has also been blamed for damage done to many Winchester Model 1895 lever actions in .30.
What a gun can handle on the range means little if it can damage a percentage of these guns in field conditions.

Back to the SMG loadings. Some SMG cartridges were loaded with a slower burning powder to take advantage of the longer barrels of 30's-40's designs. These normally won't generate full pressure before they have exited the muzzle of a handgun. The Finns used 9X19 SMG loads in their 9mm Browning Blowback pistols when pistol ammo ran short. Excessive muzzle blast was the main problem.
Later SMG loads intended for more modern short barreled designs use fast powders and hot loads that caused problems with several modern 9mm handgun designs, requiring heavier frames for milspec Browning P-35 pistols and the Walther P-1 with aluminum frame becoming obsolete. No way I'd use these loads in my Model 59.

The Ammunition manuals show a commercial level 9X19 ammunition kept in stock for use in the M3 Greasegun when converted to 9MM and in several 9mm pistols in limited use by our military.

Aircraft MG ammunition was also manufactured to higher tolerances with special attention to time of ignition due to continued use of synchronized cowl guns.
The British used hotter burning propellants for high altitude use, since replacing eroded barrels was better than poor performance in combat.

[Larry Gibson]

It says "For Aircraft use only" on the box :-)

That does not mean it was loaded to higher pressures than M1 ball because they weren't. They were supposed to be loaded with the M1 174 gr bullet. Notice the box does not identify it as M1 or M2 but as ".30 Ball Cartridges". They also were supposed to me made to much tighter specification and tolernces because of the potential to shoot your own plane if a bullet was too slow or too fast.

As mentioned earlier our .30 cal MGs were (re)designed to function with M1 Ball and that included the MGs in aircraft. At the beginning of the war there was still M1 ammunition in the inventory which was used for MGs including aircraft MGs. Since M2 ammunition had replaced M1 ammunition in production there needed to be a "special" kind of M1 loaded just for aircraft use. It would be nice to know the bullet weight and design (FB or BT), the type of powder used (ball or extruded) and the weight of the powder charge. Could someone pull a bullet to confirm or deny and give us that information?

Also it was the late '30s that M2 ammunition came in being. There were 4 different specifications for M2 ammunition. The first, made for the NG to stay within the safety fans of their ranges, was the 150 gr bullet at 2700 fps to duplicate M1906 ammunition. Then it was found that ammunition still exceeded the safety fans of many ranges so M2 ammunition was produced (up through the '70s) with 2550 - 2600 fps. Also it was found that the M1 rifle was capable of using M2 ammunition loaded to 2815 fps +/-. That is the spec most often seen.

Our recoil operated MGs (including those in aircraft) functioned reliably with M1 Ball and the 2815 fps M2 ball. The sight regulation also was correlated to both types. The M2 made to M1906 specification (2700 fps) often would function the MGs. The second iteration of M2 ammunition made for the NG most often would not reliably function the MGs. That's why a lot of M72 was belted and given to the Contras for use in the Browning recoil operated MGs we gave them. The 2 generation M2 in the inventory was not reliable in MGs or BARs.

[Dutchman]

I have 100 rds of this stuff on original brass stripper clips with locking tabs intact.

https://media.fotki.com/2vTe3w95xH3Es.jpg

https://media.fotki.com/2vTe3wfFxH3Es.jpg

[Larry Gibson]

I have 100 rds of this stuff on original brass stripper clips with locking tabs intact.

https://media.fotki.com/2vTe3w95xH3Es.jpg

https://media.fotki.com/2vTe3wfFxH3Es.jpg

That should be M1906 ammunition, the stripper clips being a possible clue. Have you pulled a bullet?

[Dutchman]

That should be M1906 ammunition, the stripper clips being a possible clue. Have you pulled a bullet?

No never messed with it. Its all sitting in a m/1923 cartridge belt just how I bought it
off ebay long ago.

Dutch

[M-Tecs]

I don't know what the history of M1906 ammo was. Interesting https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/u-s-caliber-30-cartridges-m1906-m1-and-m2/12690

Shot a bunch of it when I was a kid. I don't remember what years but there was a bunch of 1918

[Caliboose]

Anyone need some of these to add to their collection?

[Dutchman]

Not the same...

https://images51.fotki.com/v731/photos/2/28344/3886627/c035-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/crufflerstuff/v_am-1/c035jpg.html)

https://images42.fotki.com/v663/photos/2/28344/3886627/c034-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/crufflerstuff/v_am-1/c034jpg.html)

[Cast10]

Removed

[one-eyed fat man]

At one time US small arms ammunition was classified by its intended use, rifle, machine gun and aircraft. Here is an excerpt from TM 9-1901-1, dated 1957.

"7. Grade of Ammunition

a. Ammunition for 20-mm aircraft guns is not graded; all accepted
lots thereof are serviceable for issue and use in all applicable- weapons.

b. Due to the varying characteristics of the several types of caliber .50
weapons, applicability of immediate action, and the location of the gunner
relative to the weapon, caliber .50 ammunition is classifieds either grade
AC or grade MG for purposes of identification, issue, and use.
Caliber .50 ammunition lots indicating minimum or no probabilities of misfires or
other malfunctions which may cause stoppages in remote 'weapons is
classified as grade AC for use in aircraft and antiaircraft machine guns.
All other ammunition lots within allowable specification limits are classified as grade MG
for use in ground machine guns under the immediate, direct control of the gunner."

The rifle classification was by this time semi obsolete as manually operated bolt action rifles (most tolerant of inconsistent ammo)were no longer in general use.

[Char-Gar]

Let's not get an internet myth started on this type of primer crimp being specific for aircraft machine guns. So far all we have are suppositions. When we get some concrete proof, then we're talking.

Outpost is not guessing or supposing, he knows. That is concrete.