XRF Interpretation

[nun2kute]

I'm not even sure that is the proper term for a metal analyzer. Anyway, I found a giant hunk of lead. I would guess that it's near pure lead. But before I commit any funds towards buying any I'd like to know how hard it is. One of the Employee's there says he will shoot it with the analyzer on Monday, but I have no idea how to interpret the data to gauge how hard it may be. I believe soft lead would be something like 95% Pb+5% Sb (lead and antimony) with traces of Sn (tin), As (Arsenic), if I read that other post correctly. But is that what a XRF gun will tell you or do I got to have a degree in Metallurgy to know how hard that lead may be ?

[BNE]

The XrF will tell you the % of each component present.

You probably will get a readout like:
Pb = 99%
Sb = 1%

As long as you don't get all wrapped around the axle about the reading it will tell you pretty much what you have. If it gives you a reading like 1.05%, then I would call it 1% and move on. It may also give you a bunch of small contaminant level stuff. That may or may not be accurate.

Good luck, I hope it works out for you.

BNE

[runfiverun]

it will give you the percentages of what is in the block.
make sure they shoot a clean spot.
the machine should read out something like 98% Pb 1.0% Sb .5% Sn .3% Cu
some iron probably, maybe some calcium, and maybe even a little Zinc.

it won't give you a BHN number just the contents it see's, or the closest thing to what it has been programmed to see.
if it doesn't know Bi exists it will read it as Sb which it does know exists if it's in the program.
it might show some of both.
it might pick junk up on the surface.
but it gives you a pretty good idea what is there besides Lead.

use your head.
if it reads 4% Fe, clean it off and have them try again, the block was sitting under some metal for a couple of winters.

[Thin Man]

Where would the everyday consumer of lead find a company that has an XRF analyzer? This sounds like a fine idea toward making an identification on the properties of any lead product. What type of industries would have this type of equipment, please? Thanks.

[nun2kute]

I work for one of the local scrap yards in Cache Valley, and drive non-ferrous loads to Western Metals in Plymouth. I'm not totally sure what they do with it yet. But Tom showed me three crates one day and said the salesman wasn't sure what to do with it. So I told him about this website and Cowboy Shooting. Bloom's in Ogden too, but I don't get there enough to encourage a friendship with anybody yet. I'm still working on getting to know the names of the people around when I drop off boxes.

I am really interested in the analysis of the lead, but the more I think about it, knowing what they do, I'm wondering if this is lead from batteries that have been left in cars for shredding that they have extracted from their conveyer belt, and maybe a health hazard not worth the effort. I am thinking I need to ask more questions next week before I buy a bunch of lead I can't use.

I'll let you know what I find out next week.

[Wayne Smith]

Even if it's from batteries if it has been melted into one block the contamination is likely gone.

[Dusty Bannister]

Even if it's from batteries if it has been melted into one block the contamination is likely gone.

Here we go again?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?138362-Why-Car-Batteries-Are-Dangerous

[runfiverun]

the XRF would show that as a high calcium content.

[lightman]

The read out should be pretty self explanatory. The ones shown on here are, anyway. Like BNE said, don't get hung up on all of the small% of stuff.

[Kosh75287]

There are a couple of ways to measure metal content in an ingot. Atomic Absorption spectroscopy, Inductively Coupled Plasma-M*** Spectroscopy, and X-ray Florescence spectroscopy.The first one is old, less expensive, and generally sufficiently sensitive and accurate. ICP is much more expensive, but can measure certain material concentrations down to the "part-per-quadrillion" level. I'm not acquainted with XrF, but it is almost certainly more accurate and sensitive than AA, and less expensive than ICP-MS.

Between XrF and a brinell hardness, you should end up with an excellent idea as to what's in with the lead, and how much.

[nun2kute]

This fella must not be a very good Salesman. Doesn't seem to want to sell any lead. I can't seem to get him out of his office. But when I do, I'll let you know the results.

[sqlbullet]

nun2kute, you need to spend a bit of time reading up at the lasc website about lead alloys. This article is a great starting point and should tell you everything you need to know when you get the results back.

http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletAlloy.htm

The example ratio you mention in your first post of 95% lead, 4.9% antimony and traces of tin and arsenic would be a hard, brittle alloy for the purposes of bullet metal. If I were given a supply of such lead I would cut it 60/40 with pure lead, and then add in some tin, for a target alloy of 96/3/1 pb/sb/sn. Alternately you could enrich it with 2 oz of tin pewter per 10 lbs of the example metal to get something pretty close to hardball.

Here is the simplest test. See if they will let you cut off a corner. You don't need much. 8 oz is plenty. A sawzall with a wood or general purpose blade will work best. Skip the hacksaw. Perform the following simple tests

Normalize the hardness by heating it in the oven to 350° for one hour and allowing it to cool in place. Cooling in place is important as we are ensuring there is no quench induced hardness in the lead, if it is an alloy. Once this is done:

1. Can you fingernail scratch it with ease
2. Does it ring or thud when dropped from 4' to a concrete floor

If you can scratch it easily and it thuds instead of rings, you have soft lead to be treated as pure. If it rings, it has some antimony or tin in it, probably around 2-3% antimony and .5-1% tin, and it will still scratch, but not as easily. If it rings and you have a hard time scratching it, it will have higher antimony and tin content.

3. Melt it.

If you have a way to track the temperature during melting great, but not required. The key item we want to know is does it melt like an ice cube (solid straight to liquid) or like ice cream (hard->soft->mushy->liquid). If it melts like an ice cube it is either pure lead (easily scratched) or a type metal (not easily scratched). If it melts like ice cream, it is a low-antimony/tin alloy.

Finally, feel free to reach out to me via PM if you want. I am in Salt Lake and have a hardness tester, thermometers and experience and would be glad to help you figure out what you have and how to use it for bullets.

[RED333]

Easy test that you can carry in your pocket.
1) old clamp on wheel weight
2) old stick on wheel weight
3) cast boolit of yours that is of known hardness
4) pocket knife
Try to shave a piece off of each and see what matches.
If you cut your self it is all on you!

[nun2kute]

I apologize folks, but all I've gotten so far are excuses. If I hear anything, I'll let you know.