Seriously thinking about whole house generator either liquid propane or natural gas

[samari46]

Living here in Louisiana every time there is a hurricane start thinking about a whole house liquid propane or natural gas generator. Most likely a generac as that is what is offered by lowes. Anyone have one and how is it fueled LP or NG. Comments and suggestions are welcome. Thanks Frank

[fjruple]

Frank-- I did a complete evaluation of my circumstances, i.e. what is your current power use, strictly electric or natural gas. My home is powered by both. The electric is forever going out lately but my natural gas has never gone out in the 40 years that I lived here in NJ. I could have gotten a Generac but I wanted the flexibility to switch other fuels if need be. Gasoline is out as it is too dangerous to store and goes bad due to the alcohol content. I have small portable gasoline generator which is on a wheeled cart and I have converted to natural gas. I also have the conversion kits for liquid propane bottles (4 Bottles) if the natural gas should go out. If the natural gas goes in my area these people will be eating each other for breakfast. The snowflakes are helpless. My electric needs are small as I only need electricity to run communications, the thermostat on the heater (if in Winter) and refrigerator/freeze. I keep a good supply of pre-cooked can and packaged food in event the refrigerator/freezer fails. Your only limited by your imagination. Good luck.

--fjruple

[Finster101]

Frank, I have a Generac 22kw and a 500 gal propane tank buried. It just ran from Sunday the 10th till Saturday the 16th and never missed a beat. I had it put in when the house was built a couple of years ago having already been through a couple of hurricanes. I'd consider it a darn good investment.

James

[winelover]

When I built, in rural Arkansas, a whole house generator was stipulated in the house bid. NG is not an option for me. Went with a 22K Generac.....that is the largest air cooled unit, offered. Move up to liquid cooled and cost is prohibitive for most homeowners.

I have a 1000 gallon propane tank that is buried. Since I own the tank, I am able to shop for the best price on propane. Summer is the cheapest time to buy. Usually go through, 100 gallons per year. Tank gets topped off, every other year.

I have a 4000 sq. ft. ICF (Insulated Concrete Form) house. Geo-thermal heating and cooling. Most appliances are electric, except for fireplace, cooktop and clothes dryer. I have a 90 gallon water heater, leased from the electric provider. That is one of the biggest drains on the electricity usage. I have a 40 gallon propane water heater installed as a backup.......for use only for an extremely extended power outage. Been here 5 years and never had to fire it up, let along put water in it.

Generator is 5 years old and only gets it's once a year maintenance......oil and filter change. Did put in a new battery, before last Winter.......just because. Unit is set up to run/exercise, once a week for twenty minutes. Longest power outage was four hours.......however, we are prone to ice storms. Few years before I moved here, there was a big ice storm that left residents without power for two weeks.

I was a Boy Scout and like to "be prepared".

Winelover

[bandsmoyer]

I have a Generac 22000 and I wouldn't be without it. Where I live the electric goes off if it's cloudy. Just over the last two weeks it's run for two day's. Do it ,you wont regret it. Propane

[bullet maker 57]

Same here, don't hesitate. I have an 8kw Generac. It runs on propane. Longest run was 5 days.The only thing I can't run is the a/c. I have a window unit if needed for the bedroom. No natural gas available here. The utility wants an arm and a couple of legs to run the pipes up the street I live on.

[rancher1913]

I have a 60kw diesel that has not seen active duty in a long time. it runs fine but is a manual start and manual load transfer and we haven't lost power for more than a few hours in a long time. the solar and ups system take care of the freezers so just just have not needed it.

[mold maker]

Don't forget to change the oil and service the power source ever time it gets used for more than an hr. You never know when the next time will be or for how long. Starting with fresh oil will all but guarentee dependability, while neglect will always preclude failure.

[bedbugbilly]

About twenty years ago, my mother became paraplegic as a result of surgery she had to go though. I remodeled her house to make it barrier free. Where we are in southern MI, we do loose power at times due to storms, etc. Since she had an electric bed, had to transfer back and forth in to a wheel chair, etc., I felt it was a necessity that we put in a generator. She was alone except for the help I had coming in for her and my 3 to 4 visits a day to make sure things were O.K.

My folks had a 1,000 gallon L.P. tank. Since you never knew when the power would go off - i.e. summer or winter - I needed it to power their circulating pumps on their hot water boiler, the garage door, stove/oven/fridge, lights, AC, deep well pumpetc. I had a company come out and do an evaluation and they suggested the size to put in to meet the requirements. It ran on the LP, electric start from a car batter and they wired in the necessary switches, etc. to the service panel.

It was set up to kick on at 5 pm every Tuesday for a weekly "test" and would run for 15 minutes. When it kicked in and the power changed from the regular service to the generator, I never noticed a flicker in the lights nor a "lag" of any kind. I'm guessing that it was needed probably once a year over the remaining ten years that she lived.

My only comment would be that if you put one in, have it installed correctly - i.e. if you don't know what you're doing, hire someone who does. I had her generator serviced once a year on a regular basis. Too often, folks put these in and then forget that they do need to be maintained - batteries replaced, etc. - then when they are actually needed, thee can be problems. And it goes without saying that anything that creates an "exhaust" needs to be installed so that there is no possibility of carbon monoxide build up in a living space. When I was working fire/rescue, I remember several times that we responded to where generators had been placed where they shouldn't be (portable generators) and there results on several of them were deadly.

If I lived where there were frequent possibilities of wind storms, tornado or hurricane, I wouldn't hesitate to have one installed - especially when you are looking at extended power outages. In the forty plus years we were at our house on the farm, I think the longest we were ever out was about four days - fortunately we could go to my mother's house and take showers, cook, etc.

[bedbugbilly]

double post - sorry

[Nueces]

In storm surge or other flood prone areas, a ground generator installation may just contribute to your overall losses. A friend of a friend put a big one in at his place near Baytown, Texas (near the coast, east of Houston). Rising Harvey water killed it.

[lightman]

After I retired as a lineman, Mrs Lightman declared that the response time to outages was too long. I guess she was spoiled with my bucket truck being parked in the driveway! :) I looked at lots of options and bought a Generac 22KW. I was all electric so I had to have gas run to the house. The gas line was close enough that my service line was free. The plumber charged me $175 to provide the necessary material and hook up the generator. As a licensed electrician, I did the electrical work myself. There is a farm co-op here that I had an "in" with and the generator cost about $5000 including a concrete pad and a 200 amp auto transfer switch. Most Generacs will run on either propane or NG with the turn of a screw.

Now, Generac has a bad name! After I retired, about 1/3rd of my neighbors bought this same unit. A few of them had trouble, including me. First, the control board on mine would not program. Two weeks later, with a new control board, the motor came apart on the first test run. Four weeks later I had a new motor and everything has worked ok since. It seems that they just throw them together at the factory to get them out of the door and let the warranty folks deal with them. All of this was covered under warranty, although I was pretty apprehensive by now.

I looked at several options before making this purchase. I have a 70 hp diesel tractor and considered a pro driven unit. The trouble hooking it up every time and dealing with keeping fuel ruled this out. Same thing with a large portable unit. I really wanted a diesel unit because of the long life but the expensive service and dealing with fuel ruled this out too. The Generac, with its air cooled engine and running on natural gas was just too convenient to go another way.

I would recommend looking to see what sells where you are located. I went with Generac because they were established in the area, with parts and support available. There are other brands, just as good or better.

Being in a flood zone is something to consider. Build a raised platform if you think water will get that high.

Whatever you choose, I encourage you to hook it up legally and correctly. Back feeding receptacles in your house is dumb and dangerous. So is doing anything that will back feed through the meter. Don't plan to pull the meter either. Power companies frown on this and as soon as they find your meter unplugged they will probably put a lock on it and maybe charge you a large tampering fee. Do it right!

[rancher1913]

so I guess using a double male cord and pluging into the dryer outlet would be wrong [smilie=1:

[Handloader109]

Brother in MS purchased and installed Generac after Katrina. His home is mainly propane, Heating, water heater and range. (works for pipeline and gets good discount) His set to kick on monthly. And he has used it rarely over past few years. Probably a day or two max a year. But it is there......
No issues that I know of. I'd love one here in NWA, I'm all electric except propane cooktop I just put in. Dang NG is quarter mile away, and they won't run closer. Geez!

[farmerjim]

so I guess using a double male cord and pluging into the dryer outlet would be wrong [smilie=1:

But it is OK to plug it into the 50 amp welder outlet.

[jonp]

Wifes parents have one. A Generac fueled by LP from a buried 500gal tank. He wired it for instant on if the power cut out and off when power came back. Works great

[Edward]

Count me in I have a 10k Generac ,wife on oxygen and I have to have electric /self installed going on 7yrs(LP) runs test once a week year round /got it at Home Depot .Keeps freezers /computer/water and some lights/outlets going and the wife happy . Get one and get independence :bigsmyl2:

[Outpost75]

I've had a 20kW Generac Guardian with solid state ATS panel and 500 gallon propane tank for five years.
My model was replaced by the 22kW version currently sold. If doing it again I'd get a 1000 gallon tank.

http://preparednessadvice.com/tag/generator/

204261

[square butte]

Is there a stationary unit out there that will survive an EMP?

[MaryB]

EMP survival is a matter of adding the proper surge suppressors to every wire in and out of the generator cabinet.

An option with going water cooled(yes more expensive) is the ability to use the waste heat to keep your house or garage/shop warm! Many of the guys using diesel for backup to solar are doing this. Free heat!

[3006guns]

Well, my backup system is pretty crude compared to all of the above. No massive generator, no massive fuel tank..........just a Listeroid 6 hp diesel belted to an 1800 rpm 2500 watt surplus generator. Hand start with a crank, mounted on a rolling frame that's stashed in a corner of the garage. It has a two gallon tank with a five gallon jerry can next to it. Power is transmitted through a heavy cord to a special outlet in the garage to the breaker panel outside. A manual lockout prevents the main breaker from being on any time the generator is in use to protect power company personnel. Pretty simple, huh?

During the horrible heat wave we had a couple of months back, the power went down. Normally not something really inconvenient, but when the evaporative cooler quit it got hot........really hot. I wheeled the beast out, swung the crank once and it started immediately. I was able to operate my cooler, refrigerator, freezer, a few lights and my tv set. I discovered later that all 2400 households in my little town were without power. The only places still "lit up" were City Hall, the Police Department, hospital and ME.

That's a feeling of security that's hard to beat.

[lightman]

so I guess using a double male cord and pluging into the dryer outlet would be wrong [smilie=1:

Yes, double male cords are dangerous to those not familiar with electrical stuff. And most breakers are not rated for reverse feed so its possible to be feeding stuff that has no overcurrent protection.

I see your screen name is rancher. Most of my friends are farmers and they just have a way of making stuff work! :) I understand!

I'm a professional electrician, retired, and a retired lineman. I've had friends injured from generators and this is a personal thing to me. I meant to offense to you personally.

[lightman]

But it is OK to plug it into the 50 amp welder outlet.

Yes, that too! See my reply above! :)

I'm a professional electrician, retired, and a retired lineman. I've had friends injured from generators and this is a personal thing to me. I meant no offense to you personally.

[gbrown]

My friend is a disabled vet who had a setup with a 22 KW Generac and a 1000 gallon propane tank. During Harvey, flood water made the tank float and turned it on its side. Water almost got on the generator. His wife had to wade in thigh deep water in the middle of it all and turn off the tank. Lessons learned. Elevate the generator and have the tank elevated and immovable in some type of anchored cradles.

[samari46]

First of all I'd like to thank one and all for responding to my post. Your comments and suggestions are gr4eatly appreciated. House is 4500 sq ft and all electric. There is a gas line near the house but has been disconnected as we are all electric. No meter installed. Seeing as how it has not been used in over 20 years (galvanized pipe direct buried) I have doubts about its structural strength. And the tie in point is about 200' from the back of the house. I'm 70 and have breathing problems copd and asbestosis. I have been using a 6K gas generator in the past but don't like having to store all that gas near the house. Lowe's sells the 22k LP or NG one but kinda have doubt's about their doing the installation. So it boils down to LP and seeing who sells the generac and the transfer switch and installation plus getting a 1000 gal LP tank. Thanks Frank

[AbitNutz]

There is a huge difference in units in the 22kv area. One type used a 2 cylinder air-cooled engine that runs at 3600 rpm. The other uses a 4 cylinder liquid cooled engine that runs at 1800 rpm. The life of the two eninges are vast as are the difference in price. The 4 cylinder liquid cooled 1800 rpm engine is quiet, low vibration engine based on a GM auto engine that can run almost indefinately. Both can run on propane or natural gas. The 2 cylinder 3600 rpm engine that is akin to a garden tractor motor.

If your budget allows, the liquid cooled 1800 rpm engine is a forever generator that can power your whole house including your central air.

[MT Gianni]

First of all I'd like to thank one and all for responding to my post. Your comments and suggestions are gr4eatly appreciated. House is 4500 sq ft and all electric. There is a gas line near the house but has been disconnected as we are all electric. No meter installed. Seeing as how it has not been used in over 20 years (galvanized pipe direct buried) I have doubts about its structural strength. And the tie in point is about 200' from the back of the house. I'm 70 and have breathing problems copd and asbestosis. I have been using a 6K gas generator in the past but don't like having to store all that gas near the house. Lowe's sells the 22k LP or NG one but kinda have doubt's about their doing the installation. So it boils down to LP and seeing who sells the generac and the transfer switch and installation plus getting a 1000 gal LP tank. Thanks Frank
I would check out the gas line anyway. Galvanized is rare for a NG line as it will flake off and plug orifices. Usually they are black iron with cathodic protection systems. If it is connected on the utility side it should be protected. If not the cost to run a new line should be less than the fuel cost difference.

[lightman]

There is a huge difference in units in the 22kv area. One type used a 2 cylinder air-cooled engine that runs at 3600 rpm. The other uses a 4 cylinder liquid cooled engine that runs at 1800 rpm. The life of the two eninges are vast as are the difference in price. The 4 cylinder liquid cooled 1800 rpm engine is quiet, low vibration engine based on a GM auto engine that can run almost indefinately. Both can run on propane or natural gas. The 2 cylinder 3600 rpm engine that is akin to a garden tractor motor.

If your budget allows, the liquid cooled 1800 rpm engine is a forever generator that can power your whole house including your central air.

This is true and I considered it when I bought mine. But the cost was prohibitive. The cost was like buying a riding mower vs buying a car. If you live in an area where you have to use it frequently for long periods of time the liquid cooled unit probably is worth it. My air cooled unit will have a shorter life span but usually only runs for a few hours at a time. We have an ice storm every 5 or 10 years where an outage can last between 40 hours and 2 weeks. My air cooled unit is fairly quiet, we can barely hear it running. My neighbor had to place his near his bedroom and it bothers him some.

[texasnative46]

Friends,

At our place in rural WV we have a 20KW generator with a 1,000 gallon propane tank. - It does WELL given the frequent power outages up on the mountain.
(I don't remember the brand.)

The tank belongs to the farmer's coop & the tank is filled, as necessary, by the coop's driver/truck.
("Rodney" also keeps a watch on all the local houses when he is out on service calls/delivery.)

We like the rig, given that some years that we've been iced in for 10+ days but everything still worked fine.

yours, tex

[lightman]

I would check out the gas line anyway. Galvanized is rare for a NG line as it will flake off and plug orifices. Usually they are black iron with cathodic protection systems. If it is connected on the utility side it should be protected. If not the cost to run a new line should be less than the fuel cost difference.

I suggest talking to the gas company before committing to propane. Around here the gas company will run 100 ft for free. The cost of the service may be cheap enough to off set the fuel cost. I do see advantages to having a bulk propane tank around though. You can plumb into it to run the BBQ grill or heat your shop and even run your lead smelting operation, of just fill your smaller bottles from it. The drawback to natural gas to me was having to fix my yard. I keep a nice yard and I'll be a year or more repairing my yard where the trench is. If you have to run a new gas line consider putting your generator near your electric meter. Plastic gas line may be cheaper than copper wire, conduit and labor.

[samari46]

Still in the planning stage. Great idea regarding the 1800 rpm engine (liquid cooled) versus air cooled 3600 rpm. Spend enough hours on a riding lawn mower. Seem to remember the lower rpm engines running better,longer and quieter than the 3600 rpm jobs. Again, thanks. Frank

[Meatpuppet]

3006guns... Listeroid??? Man, I am jealous. That is my dream generator. I could listen to it run all day long.

[MaryB]

They replaced my gas line this summer. No trench. 3x3' hole at either end and they use a pulling machine that pulls the new line in.


I suggest talking to the gas company before committing to propane. Around here the gas company will run 100 ft for free. The cost of the service may be cheap enough to off set the fuel cost. I do see advantages to having a bulk propane tank around though. You can plumb into it to run the BBQ grill or heat your shop and even run your lead smelting operation, of just fill your smaller bottles from it. The drawback to natural gas to me was having to fix my yard. I keep a nice yard and I'll be a year or more repairing my yard where the trench is. If you have to run a new gas line consider putting your generator near your electric meter. Plastic gas line may be cheaper than copper wire, conduit and labor.

[jonp]

First of all I'd like to thank one and all for responding to my post. Your comments and suggestions are gr4eatly appreciated. House is 4500 sq ft and all electric. There is a gas line near the house but has been disconnected as we are all electric. No meter installed. Seeing as how it has not been used in over 20 years (galvanized pipe direct buried) I have doubts about its structural strength. And the tie in point is about 200' from the back of the house. I'm 70 and have breathing problems copd and asbestosis. I have been using a 6K gas generator in the past but don't like having to store all that gas near the house. Lowe's sells the 22k LP or NG one but kinda have doubt's about their doing the installation. So it boils down to LP and seeing who sells the generac and the transfer switch and installation plus getting a 1000 gal LP tank. Thanks Frank

Great choice. My wife's dad is a commercial/industrial electrician and did the wiring himself. He was not worried about the summer as Northern New England doesn't get that hot but the winter with his heated floors. The more I think about it I'm pretty sure that underground tank is 1,000gal not 500gal as most on here are saying is what is generally used in this situation.

[MaryB]

A rough rule of thumb is a 20# propane tank is equal to 5 gallons of gas if you want to do a comparison...

[Bo1]

A few years back, I bought a MEP003A Military diesel generator. This is a refurbished older style genset that is rated at 10K by military specs. It is actually comparable to a 15 to 18 kilowatt commercial generator. It is an air cooled 1800 rpm unit, and is almost bullet proof. It was designed to run anywhere in the world, and run for months at a time. I have 2 central air units and my home is all electric, and it will run everything without really grunting. I was without power for over 10 days after a major hurricane years ago, and decided then that when I could afford it, I was going to have backup power for my house.

[lightman]

I've hooked up some of those surplus generators for some of the volunteer fire departments and police stations around here. They are like most military equipment in that they are over built and are tough and durable. I could have got one for myself except that I did not want to deal with storing fuel.

[Bo1]

I understand, but I also have a diesel pickup truck, 45 horse diesel tractor, and two military deuce and a half multi fuel trucks... Having a couple of 55 gallon drums of diesel fuel under the back awning of the shop is easily used in my case.

[lightman]

Oh yeah, you are all set then.

[samari46]

Did a little pricing and comparing the 3600 22kw generator versus the 1800 rpm 22kw generator and the 1800 rpm one is about one third more that the faster one. And at one time (before we bought this house) did have a gas line run from the main that runs through the front of the property to where the well pump house is and although there is no gas meter connected the inlet has a gas cock with a lock on it. And still have a short run that was used to feed the house. So I'm guessing that up to the gas cock with the lock the line is still pressurized. Would have to check with the gas company about the status of the line plus any plans to replace it if and when I need the NG for the generator and also a gas meter. Still researching. Frank

[MT Gianni]

Our summer price is $1.05 for a gallon of LP. [92,000 btu's] Natural gas runs about $0.45 per therm [100,000 btu]. Best to go Nat if you can get it. You might get a $ meter charge for having one there but most are less than $10 a month.

[blackthorn]

If I were going to put in a large generator, I think I would go for the underground LP tank. The reason is because the Natural gas line is part of a very large grid and who knows what might happen to some part of that grid during a major disaster? Much better comfort factor using a tank that is right there.

[MaryB]

Gas company here charges an insane fee for using gas for a standby generator...

[kootne]

I am seriously considering a 7.5kw Generac just so the next time a big fire blows through the area I can leave sprinklers running on the roof if we told to evac. I already have the underground tank which we don't use anymore and a good well in the Kootenai river bottom gravel. My house is very well fire wised except for the burning ember landing on the shingle roof scenario (which I think is probably what gets most fires started). Anyway, it was fun to read this thread and get some other viewpoints. Now I just need to do it while the memory of 20,000 acres of timber burning 4 miles away is still fresh on my mind.

[snowwolfe]

I wrestled with the decision to install a large stand by gen or go with a portable unit as we lose power on the average of twice a year. The end result was I purchased a 8K gen at Costco on sale for $750 and had the builder install a transfer switch. I keep the gen full of non ethanol gas and have 10 extra gallons of the same gas on hand.
We cant run everything at the same time but we can run anything we want if we are careful.

[lightman]

Gas company here charges an insane fee for using gas for a standby generator...

I guess different companies in different areas have vastly different rates. Utilities have a customer charge that covers the book keeping, IE reading the meter, billing, ect, whether you use the product or not. Most will cover a minimum usage also. My gas bill, for my generator only, runs around $13 per month. My generator starts and runs once a week for 10 minutes.

At some point I may add gas heat to my shop and build a NG fired burner for smelting. The shop is really close to the gas meter but there is a sidewalk between them to dig under!

[Detroitdanm]

The company I worked for did generator service work as part of it's business and I saw an awful lot of the Generac's used in a lot of emergency services buildings. Typically I'd see the 12K-14K units IIRC though. They served well and I don't recall having much issue with them at all. I would question how much need there would be for a larger unit.

[Shingle]

Glad to see you are thinking dont be one of those people who gets a generator hooked up to gas company lines in the event of regional disaster the gas will stop coming due to pumping stations being electrical go with propane back up.

[samari46]

Well the reason I had posted about the 22k or 25k generators is that I'll be 71 in October and the wife is 10 years younger than me. Rather than have to hump the 6K gas generator out of the garage to where it will be running and then running power cords to two refrigerators and one freezer, assorted fans and my cpap machine it would be better to have a permanently installed NG or LP generator all wired in with transfer switch ready to go. Plus need a feed for the septic tank pump as well. Frank

[lightman]

If finances will allow this is what I would do. This was a part of my decision and I just did not want to do all of the work everytime that I needed it. Or if I was gone, I wanted it to be convenient for my Wife. I also did not want to mess with storing and purchasing fuel.

[Finster101]

Let me tell you, after Irma went through it sure was nice having power for the well. Not to mention A/C with the heat and humidity here in Fl. I do not regret the investment of a 22kw stand by unit. As stated, if finances allow it is the way to go. Purchase and bury your own tank as well.

[MT Gianni]

Glad to see you are thinking dont be one of those people who gets a generator hooked up to gas company lines in the event of regional disaster the gas will stop coming due to pumping stations being electrical go with propane back up.

80% of the pumping stations I am aware of are driven by inline gas engines. They have electrical controls with manual override procedures. Arcing in electric motors need to stay a long way away from normal pipeline gas stations.

[woodbutcher]

:) About 4 years ago,a friend in Fl got a Generac set up for his house and shop.Diesel powered.He just tapped into the 5K storage tank that he has for all of his farm/cattle operation equipment.Sure came in handy a few weeks ago too.Diesel price ain`t too bad either.All the Diesel that he buys is classed for agriculture use.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo