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View Full Version : How many here stick with traditional styles?



DwarvenChef
11-17-2005, 12:52 AM
Howdy all, just looking to see how many stick with traditional muzzle loader styles? Hawken, Plains, Pensilvainia, ect. ? I have never liked in-lines and will not own one, so I'm always looking for others like myself.

SharpsShooter
11-17-2005, 07:51 AM
Never cared much for the in-line types. I have a good friend that builds traditional types from scratch and they are absolutely fine shooters and pleasing to the eye as well. My remaining M/L is a 13ga double with european walnut in the english configuration. I haven't had a M/L rifle in house for several years.

MT Gianni
11-17-2005, 11:41 AM
TC Hawken made from a kit about 78. 50 cal that has never seen plastic down the bore. It has had an adaptor put on it to shoot small rifle primers rather than caps more for cost and availabilty than ignition problems. Also a 50 cal Lyman plains pistol that unfortunetly has never been blooded but has punched some paper. Gianni.

KCSO
11-17-2005, 02:02 PM
I won't even let one in the shop. My partner turned down a hunting show for Cabella's as they wanted him to shoot a White. He said he would rather eat horse dung on live TV.

Nuff' Said

versifier
11-17-2005, 02:43 PM
I shoot an older traditional TC .54 Renegade from the first or second year of production. I guess that makes it an antique... More than a few years back, I installed a receiver (peep) sight, put a recoil pad on the stock, chopped about six inches off the barrel, and milled a new front sight out of brass to make a really nice handling carbine for hunting in the thick of things. (A coulple of years later, they started making the "White Mtn. Carbine".) It shoots my home cast 430gr Maxi-Balls, 3" 5shots at 100yds. Last year, I got a new drop-in for it in the same caliber from Green Mtn. This one shoots my home cast Lee 228gr .45 HP's with TC sabots, 1" 5shots at 100yds. :lovebooli In the woods or at the range it's one of my favorite rifles and however much they chuckle when I bring it out, their eyes go wide when they see how it shoots. :shock:
As I have mentioned before, here and elsewhere, I really enjoy watching the range rats show up a week before m/l season opens, stuff three pellets into their brandy new in-lines and fire no more than three shots, the last two flinching noticably, then put the rifles back into their cars and tear up the targets before heading home with bruised shoulders. :oops: I just keep on shooting until the fouling builds up enough to make loading a little harder, 20-30 shots. I think the hard plastic of the sabots cleans a lot of the fouling as they're rammed home.
To those who would bemoan my use of the plastic sabot as "untraditional", I have this to say: Yes, plastic is relatively new, but sabots themselves have been in use for hundreds of years, originally made of wood (hence the name, French for "wooden shoe") and used in cannon, but they were also used in small arms. When you really stop to think about it, what is a round ball's patch for and how does it work? Paper patches on BPCR bullets? Don't they serve the same function as a sabot? Traditional? Do you wear waterproof boots, Gore-Tex jackets and hats when the rain/sleet/snow is blowing horizontally and you're crossing streams and tramping through swamps? How about blaze orange Ten-Mile cloth, plastic lenses in your plastic-framed glasses, two-way radios, GPS units, MRE's and plastic-wrapped chocolate bars? Is your tree stand made from aluminum or a fancy alloy and what about the camo paint? [smilie=1: Or do you still cook in cast iron pots over an open fire, ride a horse to the range or to your favorite deer stand? Was your rifle made on a water-powered lathe and rifled by pounding over a mandrel by hand? The furniture made by a real live blacksmith in a coal forge? :holysheep How traditional do you want to/ have to be?
For me, it is enough that I can use a traditional caplock rifle that is still basically Civil War era technology and out-shoot most of the modern in-lines by a significant margin. The point is to have fun, isn't it? :smile:

DwarvenChef
11-17-2005, 04:20 PM
Well I can't afford all the above mentioned toys, and still use cast iron cookware (griswalds). I hear what your saying about where do you draw the line on traditions. For me it depends on how I'm feeling at the time I guess. I've made my own horn messures, cut my patches with a forged blade and use hornit nest as a buffer to the pillow ticking. I tried sabots years ago when I worked for a gunsmith in Santa Barbara due to customers asking how they worked... so I tested em out, didn't like em personaly.

I guess I got into Black Powder shooting becuse I liked going back to the early basics. I don't begrudge those who want to try to modernize it, I would not myself, but more power to ya. My guns are modern replicas but I try to get as much hand finishing and custom touches as I can. Reminds me I need to get that .40 flinty started, found a couple molds for it... so why not :bigsmyl2:

Buckshot
11-19-2005, 09:56 AM
............My ML'ers aren't really hunting rifles (they could be) but are repros of military, ie: P58 Naval pattern Enfield, or target rifles, ie: Rigby and Whitworth. Had one of the drivers the other day walk up and haul a well flattened slug out of his pocket, and announced he'd gotten himself a buck first day of the season in Oklahoma.

He's a pure meat hunter. I asked him what the rifle was. He said it was just a $89 inline from Wal-Mart. I asked about the slug and he didn't have a clue. It was just some he'd bought at Wal-Mart. Powder charge was, "2 a them 50gr pellets they sell."

I will suppose inlines have their place and are certainly useable. A frequenter of the range has or had some tie with White Systems. He's used one in Africa every year for the past 10-12 or so. Uses an NEI mould for a 520gr slug that was designed to be paper patched in cartridge rifles. White systems has a special sabot to utilize it.

...............Buckshot

waksupi
11-19-2005, 01:03 PM
I have three traditionals, and wouldn't allow one of the new plastic guns in the house. I have a twenty bore NW tradegun, an Alexander Henry English sporter, a Beckwith style Pennsylvania, and a couple pistols around, one Pedersoli, and one I built.

Jumptrap
11-19-2005, 02:11 PM
I dunno.....what difference does it make? If you like pretending to be Daniel Boone, use a traditional. If you like the looks of an in-line use that. Makes no big difference to me. I have both.......not a big fan of BP in any form. It's filthy, a PITA to clean up after and just doesn't do anything for me.

But yes, I have played with it. I have a .36 squirrel rifle built from a 60's era Dixie kit.....shoots quite well. I have had one TC flinter....yuck! I have had one TC Hawken, 2 of the el cheapo Caeblla's Hawkens and a TC .54 in-line...SS with all the bells and whistles. I quit using it and went back to the $69 Cabellas because it is so light and cleans quickly with it's hooked breech.

They are just a hunting tool for me. I've killed critters with all of them and the 36 is the most fun and you'd be surprised at what a 65 grain ball will do. I have no qualms with shooting a deer with it....kills them dead as hell. Cut the head right off a squirrel.

RugerFan
11-19-2005, 09:28 PM
I also have both. A Lyman .50 cal Plains Rifle and a CVA .50 cal Optima Pro inline. Each has it's place for my own personal needs/desires. I have taken big game with both and enjoy shooting both very much. I admit taking game with the Plains Rifle is more satisfying, but sometimes I want a little more reach.

9.3X62AL
11-19-2005, 09:50 PM
I'm not a totally hidebound traditionalist, but my frontloaders are all Hawken or Civil War patterns. I also use only The Holy Black in these rifles--one in 32 (Traditions Crockett), one in 54 (T/C Hawken) and an Italian Zouave replica in 58. Roundballs are also a strong preference. I also have four cap-and-ball replica revolvers--one in 31 (1849 Pocket), two in 36 (an 1851 and an 1861), and one in 44 (1860). Again, it's RB's and THB in these rollers.

shooter575
11-19-2005, 11:09 PM
I have allways liked military weapons of the Civil war era so that is what I shoot.My first BP rifle was a Italian pipe bomb :] [cheep zouave] Think I gave 68 bucks for it with a tin of musket caps,lb of bp and a bunch of badly cast minnes. That was pushing 35 years ago.
Anyway now I still shoot muskets.Like to build my own from orgional parts guns. Just cant get into the plastic versions.Lot of meat hunters do though.

versifier
11-20-2005, 01:07 AM
Shooter575,
I just saw a bumper sticker the other day that read "Don't worry about what people think, they do it so seldom." There are many paths to happiness.
There's a guy a know not far from here that has the care of the rifle his g'g'grandfather carried in the Civil War. Every so often I go and visit. Holding history, real solid wood-and-metal history in my hands always brings my ego back to a healthy size. I don't need to shoot that one, though it has been well cared for and he might even let me if I asked. To me it is like a holy relic. My old Renegade keeps me enough in touch with what it was like for them and puts the food on the table. The crack of the cap and the foom of the charge going off hasn't changed over time, but the Pyrodex smells a little better and no one shoots back.

Abert Rim
11-20-2005, 12:07 PM
It's the history of it for me, so I "don't have no truck " with in-lines, sabots or pellets. Fortunately, the state of Oregon is in line (sorry) with my thinking and has banned most such devices during muzzlelader seasons. The boys are welcome to use their scoped in-lines during the regular seasons, though. I am currently down to a two-band Enfield I hope to sell in order to help pay for a couple of Pecatonica kits. My wish list includes the Rigby kit, such as Buckshot's; the Schuetzen kit for offhand work with conicals and fast-twist barrels; and the Tulle -- the purtiest firearm ever designed, to my eye. I have had a lot of fun with Lyman Great Plains rifles, though. I also like a Colt 1860 or a Remington 1858 in a cross-draw holster. Have also been lucky enough to own and shoot original Merrill and Maynard Civil War carbines.

Tom W.
11-20-2005, 09:57 PM
I have a T/C Hawken in .45 cal that I bought in 1975. I shoot pyrodex "P" with patched roundballs or maxiballs, and I have used Butler Creek poly patches when I could get them. I liked the old style poly patch with the double concave wnds better, as I could put some lube in the bottom, and just a dab under the ball. I don't even know if they are still made anymore....

JCW
11-22-2005, 11:58 PM
100% Traditional style ML's. Have a .54 Cabelas hawkin Hunter and a .54 TC Renegade. Both perc.

swheeler
11-23-2005, 03:27 AM
Have both and enjoy both , life is like a buffet, sometimes you got to sample everything!

PatMarlin
11-24-2005, 12:22 AM
I've got a nice TC Hawken 50cal.

A lyman Deerstalker bored to 20ga. Nice performer!

And I don't care for inlines but I fell in love with, and got a steal of a deal on a new Knight 12ga turkey gun all camo, witih the gold medallion in the stock and it is one fine quality shotgun.

Couldn't bare to use plastic inserts, so I installed a #11 cap nipple.

Didn't have time to get my first turkey this year, but will soon.

Oh yea... Got 3 screw in chokes to.. 8)

DwarvenChef
11-24-2005, 01:56 AM
Going to be piecing together a 58 hawken soon if my buddy doesn't give up his old monster. I'm going to be looking to buy .570 and .575 steel RB single cavity moulds in a few (after I get the Bbl) any makers I should be looking at?

fiberoptik
11-24-2005, 03:39 AM
I picked up a .32 CVA squirrel gun at a pawn shot, and was hooked. I then got a cheap CVA .50 inline for my first deer rifle. I've now got another CVA .50 in trade, and traded a .36 TC for a .32 Dixie poorboy. I would like a White, and I would like to trade a Colt 1903 for a pair of sidelock .45's at this weekends GunShow in Birch Run from someone I met there the last time. I'm hoping he shows with the charcoal burners & we're up on trade. I'm leaning more & more to the traditional rifles, but I'm not about to talk trash to anyone that thinks different, as we need more shooters, not less. Still, I made meat with mine using a patched RB, and both chubby does dropped dead in their tracks. The biggest thing the inlines have going for them is easier to scope.

Bret4207
11-24-2005, 09:24 AM
The Bi-Centennial, 1976, was a big influenece on me. That being said, I consider the non-traditionals something "less" than a real muzzle loader. NY's muzzle loader season was intended to offer a week of additional hunting season to those using traditional black powder muzzle loaders. It has morphed into nothing less than a second season. Scopes do not belong on a ML. Shooting saboted jacketed bullets is not primitive. Bolt action muzzle loaders are not traditional. They should not be allowed during the muzzle loader season. Just my opinion. Yes, I want more shooters, but calling a White System rifle a "muzzle loader" is streching the intention of the reason for the season. If they were to have a speacial "In Line" season that would be more appropriate.

8mmshooter
11-24-2005, 11:17 AM
I too believe in the traditional is more better don't cha no. I do own an inline but I prefer to hunt with my side hammer .45 kentucky rifle. My hawkens .50 and my pendersoli 10 gauge shotgun .... all replicas wish they were originals. Even have a couple of remington revolvers cap and ball .Wish I had a .32 squirrel rifle to go with them. I do collect old military rifles as well....just somethin about the way they feel and the history behind them. The feel of the wood and steel and the events in history they went through along with the young men that used them. Sure wish those old rifles could tell their story. 8mmshooter

DwarvenChef
11-24-2005, 09:26 PM
The T/C Fire Hawk would be about as new-fangled as I would be willing to go as far as a "New style" ML was conserned. I'm just goofy for half-stocks, working on a list of T/C Hawkens to start a moden collection. See how it goes...

BS2
11-25-2005, 10:49 AM
What I really like about the older traditional guns is the fancy wood. The striped maple and fancy walnuts are beautiful!

Then there is the quality and workmanship that is put into these guns. The carvings and inlays, WOW!

and I just tinker with simple ole Underhammers. :roll:

madcaster
11-25-2005, 11:39 AM
I do not get the same level of satisfaction with modern guns as I do with flintlocks.

Howdydoit
11-30-2005, 12:55 PM
Im new to ML'ers

But I own a cva 32 squirrel and a cva bobcat. the last few years if went fom mauser rifle building to (just starting) ML building. When I get a bug I get it all the way. I jumped into archery the same way and now im putting down the compound and using longbows. So I am an advocate of traditional with holy black only. Inlines are nice but to easy, it takes some of the challenge out of it. This has all come about because I can shoot comfortably out to 500 yards iron sights so having to get, any game into about 50 yards is real hunting. :lovebooli

quigleysharps4570
12-08-2005, 07:07 PM
Another traditional fan here. Been shooting them since 1975. A guy at work got me started with a kentucky long rifle kit. Never have owned or shot an in-line...odds are never will.

waksupi
12-08-2005, 08:48 PM
Traditional, here. Inlines give me the fantods.

KCSO
12-08-2005, 10:50 PM
What gripes me is that I pushed for a M/L season from 1971 till the first season in 1984??? Our premise for the season was slow reloads, limited range and power and the general difficulty of the sport. Now I see where the inlines are bragging about being 100% waterproof and accurate and powerful out to 300 yards and they reload with a bullet glued to a stick of powder. M/L season has become an extra chance for the greedy to harvest another deer. The inlines have brough very little into the primitive clubs and now the guys with the flinters are out there competing with the same thing we petitioned for a special season to get away from.

But then again I won't shoot a bow with wheels either.

PatMarlin
12-08-2005, 11:04 PM
That's a good argument to be anti- inline.

I only have an inline turkey shotgun cause it's real pretty camo, and has a gold medallion in the stock.. :bigsmyl2: :bigsmyl2:

StarMetal
12-08-2005, 11:39 PM
Some states such a Pennyslvania started with a primitive season that means a primitive flintlock with patched roundball and iron sights only. I think they modified that to almost the same except you can you use a conical I heard. My point is PA also has a BP season where any sort of muzzleloader is okay. You PA forum members correct me if I'm wrong. Now, If I had my choice of a BP season with inlines or no season at all which you think I would pick? Yup right, inline season. There are other greedy ways of getting more deer and one of them is illegal. I'd rather see a primitive season that gets a hunter out there true and honest. I'd rather see a young kid hunt primitive season with an inline then not hunt at all and play they foolish damn video games.

Joe

DwarvenChef
12-09-2005, 02:54 AM
Also have to agree with the in-line issue. If it gets people into the sport, great. Now we traditionalists have a little easier job of converting them to real BP shooting.

I would love to see a bit of re-doing the ML season hunting regs but I know that the lobbists for in-lines will be the loudest, look at the common blackpowder Co's output now days, almost every rifle they offer is an in-line. What I would like to see is the powder and load written up to restrict the speed of loading. Load sticks need to go away, I would love to see sabots go away but it would be argued that a patched roundball is a sabot of sorts.

Ok my brain hurts and I'm going on to something pleasent...

moodyholler
12-09-2005, 12:51 PM
Most definitely a traditionalist!!!!! I have a .65caliber flintlock trade gun (smoothbore) and a .54 caliber Hawken fullstock that were both made by me. I shoot from my bag at the shoots and people look at me like I am crazy. Biut it keeps me close to my ancestors!!! FWIW, moodyholler

ejjuls
12-10-2005, 02:27 PM
I shoot a flintlock only - It was hard to allow my son's perc. in the door....but what can a guy do? :-)
Anyway - Cabela's .54 HAwken copy (Eric re-worked to make it shootable)
The rifle is actually made in Spain - can't remember off hand who. Learned my lesson on copies, repro's, etc. If you want it done right - you have to do it yourself. It took me ALOT of time and effort to get this things consistently on paper at 50yds......new sights, mods to sights, lock "tuning" and adjustment, etc, etc....long saga.

Oregon has ML seasons - the particulars are as follows
peep or open sights
open ignition (inlines or 209 primers not allowed) Yippy!
Lead projectiles only (YES!!!!)
no plastic, sabot's, artificial wads, etc... (OH YEAH)
No fiber optic sight inserts or scopes
The list goes on and I can't remember it all off-hand.... but the gist of it is percussion or flintlock only with inlines, closed breech percussion and other modern designs excluded from the ML seasons. If people choose to use the modern ML's in general center fire rifle seasons they can.

I like flinter's myself. Reason? Just cuz...if I am going to make it challenging why not make it challenging? I'm out there to have fun and hone my skills - not to "cheat" and carry a center fire rifle in ML clothes or use some exotic "wonder bullet" to compensate for poor shot placement. THe proper projectiles are simple - lead ball, lead minnie ball or REAL bullet from Lee. This is one concession I had to make (they shot REAL Good from my rifle!) There are others that work too - Maxi, maxi-hunter, etc, etc.

There is no ignition timing difference in a properly tuned flinter and a good percussion operating correctly. This, I guess is a lost art so to speak - luckily there was an old timer nearby who past on the tricks to me. Nothing complicated - but very very necessary conversion to a "factory" lock. Take a wait a minute deer and hold still gun - to a wham never new what hit-em' gun.

There!
Done rambling..... OH I almost forgot - Black powder is the ONLY propellant.
For those of you scared of the "corrosion" issues - you have nothing to fear from black powder if you follow a simple routine. Fire gun - clean gun. All you need for cleaning is simple - water, plain old water, use ZERO petroleum / synthetic based lube or protectant (unless you plan to remove it completely before firing). In the field I can clean my rifle after a one shot or two at game before I walk up to make sure the critter expired. Basically it takes about 2 minutes to clean and protect. The hype about black is pushed way out there in left field to promote these "subs" to black. If you use them and like them - good for you. If you find ignition spotty or difficult - switch to another one. If you want rapid reliable ignition - black is your answer. If anyone has specific questions on the flintlock or my cleaning techniques just drop me an email or whatever.
Ok.....done rambling I promise

RugerFan
12-11-2005, 12:12 AM
Ejjuls,
Very interesting post. I have a percussion and have thought about getting a flintlock. If you would be willing to post your lock tuning tricks, I'm sure there are many here that would be all ears.

-Todd

ejjuls
12-11-2005, 01:23 AM
I will do just that!
I need to take some pictures of my lock and such and put together a thoughtful easy to follow instructions.....

Give me a couple of days and I will post a new topic on "geeting flintlocks to go boom - instead of swishsshhhhsshhhh....pause.....boom"!

Hope everyone enjoys.....glad to hear I can actually contribute something useful!!

:-)
Eric

versifier
12-11-2005, 05:03 PM
Ejjuls, you know, even if all you have to say is "Yes, I think so, too. That's how it worked with mine.", that's still something useful and important. It adds a lot to one simple posting when others agree, or also when they disagree. There are a lot of us who explore threads on things we know nothing about just to stretch our minds a little in a new direction, and every opinion adds a little more to the process. If you get a thread where someone says something off the wall and there are NO replies at all, then we get the general impression he might be a sandwitch or two short of a picnic, [smilie=1: but when someone comes along with a "Yeah, it seems strange, but I tried it and it really worked.", then we have food for thought and the motivation to try something new to see if it might work for us, too.
Of course, when you have something major to teach us, that's even better. Flintlocks are a fascinating subject and there are too few people around that know much about them. Don't hesitate to go on for a few pages or more about all of the little things that "everybody knows", because I, for one, do not and would like to. I seriously doubt that I am the only one, either. Start up a new thread like "State of the Art:1700's", we'll keep you busy answering questions for a while. :D

Dr.Doug
12-13-2005, 10:47 AM
I like my Lyman Great Plains. I've never owned an in-line, but I may experiment with one some day- I like anything with a trigger! My personal direction is retro- my next move will be from percussion to flint, then from rifle to smoothbore. I think it's about personal experience, and the experience one is seeking, more than about the tools we use.

As far as hunting, I'll use a modern centerfire during that deer season, and a traditional during ML season. If an in-line gets someone interested in the sport, more power to them- then I'll take them to a Rendezvous, let them smell real black powder, start them casting RBs, and somewhere along the way they'll see the light.

BTW, Santa's bringing my 8 year old a 50 cal CVA for Christmas; traditional style, of course!

Stay safe,
Doug

P.S. Looking forward to your flintlock thread, EJJULS!

shooter575
12-13-2005, 10:49 PM
Here is a good link on how to tune up a C/W musket lock. Most info should apply to any traditional lock

Ejjuls Like to see your lock tuning tips also

http://www.nwtskirmisher.com/useful-locks.shtml

RugerFan
12-14-2005, 12:33 AM
Dr. Doug,
I agree with you whole heartedly on "personal experience". Good point. You got your son a ML for Christmas eh. You rock! My son was about that age when I got him his first gun, also for Christmas (.22 rim fire). Since then he used money he saved from mowing lawns to buy his own deer rifle and 12 ga. He lives to hunt and doesn't do dumb things like drugs and alcohol. When kids are engaged in a healthy time consuming hobby, they tend to stay on the right path.

Dr.Doug
12-14-2005, 11:46 AM
Ruger Fan-

My 8 year old brought home a Christmas list he'd made at school last week.

#1 was a .22 rifle.
#2 was a scope for the .22.
#3 was a muzzleloader.
#4 was tools.

Coulda been my list, too!

Doug

carpetman
12-14-2005, 12:50 PM
Dr Doug---Your 8 year old wants a .22 riflescope. You can buy a small tube scope very cheap and usually that's about the type service you get out of them. Spend some money and get a good one,and he can use it possibly the rest of his life. Leupold makes a compact 3x-9x with EFR(Extended Focus Range)that will focus down to 10 meters. This scope was designed for spring air rifles. Spring air rifles have a double acting recoil that will wreck scopes not designed for it. Even scopes that would stand up to magnum centerfire recoil. He could not only use this scope on a .22 rimfire,but it would be right at home on a big game centerfire. I think Leupold changed their policy in that they only sell to Authorized Leupold dealers,so that some places that use to carry Leupold no longer do. So I have not kept up with recent price on this scope,for a long time you could get it for $307 at a couple of places and it actually dropped down to $240. Pricey? Not really,when this scope was selling new for $307,I never saw a USED one go less than $275 on EBAY. You do pay more when you buy but they retain and increase in value. I recently bought 3 pairs of WW2 vintage Bausch & Lomb binoculars. These things are old enough to draw social security. Not much telling what use and abuse they have been through. But you look through them,they are clear and bright and one clear circle that is clear all the way to the edge. No overlap,blurr,double vision etc. I'll give a pair to my grandson and I figure they'll come a day he will be using binoculars that are over 100 years old and still performing like I described.

wills
12-14-2005, 02:37 PM
Eight year old eyes ought to work fine without a scope.

Ricochet
12-29-2005, 04:21 PM
My only long front-stuffer is a flintlock Dixie Tennessee Mountain Rifle I built from one of their kits in 1980-81.

Pawpaw
12-29-2005, 05:11 PM
Mine is a T/C Renegade, purchased brand new in 1979 for $89.00 US. I use it for hunting, informal competition and plinking. Not to mention teaching four children to shoot. Having an adolescent learn to load and shoot a muzzleloader teaches them about what makes a rifle go BANG and makes it easier to teach reloading.

Teach
12-30-2005, 12:57 PM
I have two percussion Hawken replicas, both .50 caliber. The older one has a badly pitted barrel that tears up patches, either during loading or while firing, so it needs plastic sabots to be accurate. The other one will probably do OK with patched round balls. I just bought it on a gunbroker auction, so I don't have enough range time with it to form an opinion. Those two are "loaners" for visitors. My primary hunting rifle is a Traditions .50 caliber Pennsylvania flintlock, rifled for round ball only. I shoot 3-f black powder in it, with 4-f priming powder. I'd be interested in hearing any lock tunng tricks, as it's prone to flash or hangfire pretty often. I just received the gift of an original .577 Pattern 53 Enfield rifle, from a friend who purchased it at a bazaar in Afghanistan during a deployment with the Tennessee Army National Guard. he says there's plenty more of them over there, and getting a friend to ship us some won't be a problem. Mine looks good inside and out, with honest wear, but not abuse. I should have it in firing condition soon. Yes, I'd say I'm a traditionalist!
Jerry

Boondocker
01-02-2006, 01:04 AM
Well I have hunted with rocklocks for about 15 years as a added season if I didnt get one in rifle. 3 doe and saw a mighty fine buck one time on a rainy day and we know what happened but thats the fun of it. Had 2 CVA's then a Deer Hunter gifted to son inlaw now a Traditions Seneca that I really like. Want to build one tho. One of these days got to get back to Dixons. You go to Dixons Muzzleloading Fair and it really gets the blood cooking.

Hoyt
01-12-2006, 10:00 PM
I started in muzzle loaders with a scoped inline..still got it, then I decided spring gobbler season was gettin out of hand with all the 3-1/2" extra heavy duty, plutonium shot..etc., so decided I need to hunt them with a percussion side lock. Got a gobbler with it and then a strange feelin came over me kinda like I wanted to reach back in time and do like all the old long hunters did and hunt whatever I hunted usin a flintlock. So I built a .62cal. Virginia style smooth-rifle from Pecatonica parts. This would be my gobbler gun. The next summer I had to have a .54cal. for deer and hogs before the fall. I used Pecatonica and made a .54cal. Buck's County longrifle. Now I'm gettin my parts together for a .58cal. lite-weight hunting rifle. I'm still in the figurin stage as to which Rice barrel, what style gun, etc. to end up with a .58cal. flintlock under 8lbs. Then I want a .40cal...then.........

Dr.Doug
01-12-2006, 10:54 PM
Hoyt-

I'm thinking about a smooth-bore flinter for turkeys, too. I'm leaning more toward a NW Trade Gun or maybe a Brown Bess, but I'm open to suggestions. Please tell me more about your .62 Virginia...

Thanks,
Doug

Hoyt
01-13-2006, 12:19 PM
Doug..I like everything about my Virginia except the weight..it's not heavy by no means 8lbs. 2oz. but I wanted it light as possible for all the walking I do in spring gobbler hunting.
I may just redo the thing and take off more wood..although with the 36" oct to round Getz barrel I don't think I can get it light as I would like, probably got to go with thin round barrel..I may just make another one in the future..mayber 16ga.
It patterns real good has a very light smooth simple, single Hedgecock trigger,rear sight..used a Chamber's large siler lock..should have used Chambers large siler deluxe..but the large is a good sparker. I also used 5/16" Chamber's White light'n liner. #2 Pecatonica stock.
Here's a couple pictures of it and a pattern it shot at 35yds.
Pattern (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v71/Iflytrout/Flintlocks/1stdayflintlock1.jpg)
Virginia (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v71/Iflytrout/Flintlocks/1stdayflintlock.jpg)

madcaster
01-13-2006, 10:49 PM
I HAVE seen flintlock inline pocket pistols,look at some gun sale catalogs,you can see some as well I'm sure.
Even George Shumway had an article on a Mauser converted to an inline-he slipped up a bit there.
I detest inlines,but not so much because of what they are,but the FACT that most people seem to not realize that you can put a scope on a sidehammer,buy waterproof caps and be just fine.
So I guess it is just the failure of some to think about other angles to the problem of a better aim than inlines that bothers me.It is my opinion ONLY,you are free to think and express yourself as well.Remember we are free because of men who have fought and died for our rights,and the ones who were wounded or even just served in the armed forces.Exercise your rights!
Jeff. :castmine:

sturgeon
01-13-2006, 11:26 PM
My Whites are legal here in OR, ignition is open to the elements and use #11 caps, shoots lead conicals (as it was designed for), and have Lyman peeps, loads from the muzzle, and has a fondness for both swiss and 777 fffg. My personal limit with open sights and rainbow trajectory with a 460-495 gr. conical is 100yds. It is not a "traditional" muzzleloader, but it loads from the muzzle nonetheless.
No real axe to grind, each to his own. I like curly maple and brass as much as the next guy. Not all inlines use plastic or centerfire primers is all.....

tusti
01-30-2006, 08:12 PM
I got an original Leman long rifle about 50 years ago along with a few others like a Remington revolver and a pepper-box. When I retired I built a couple of long rifles, both in 36 cal. and because of some nasty arthritis, I'm limited to range shooting.
tusti

quigleysharps4570
02-02-2006, 08:54 PM
Do you have any pictures of the ones you built Tusti? BTW...Welcome.

drinks
02-12-2006, 10:43 PM
How do you define traditional?
Firearms have been in development continually since the first, the cannon lock was likely the most long lived, the side hammer percussion the shortest lived, less than 30 years from first practical models to obsolete.
In the 30 year period, the cheapest , simplest, most undemanding route was the conversion of flint locks by the drum and nipple with a new hammer method,several other systems were developed, most direct ignition and simpler and more reliable than the drum and side hammer conversion.
Colt used inline ignition from the first, underhammer and mule ear systems were more trouble free and safer than the side hammer and drum, Moses Browning made inline repeaters on the harmonica system, I have seen a 2 shot rotating barrel rifle with inline ignition, built about 1845, even had a concealed hammer.
Why is the cheap, dirty method of converting a flintlock considered "Traditional", especially considering the very short life of the system?

OldBob
02-13-2006, 07:21 AM
I have tried a whole bunch of muzzleloaders and keep coming back to the"Hawken" style caplock for hunting. For pure fun shooting its the flintlock, tuned up properly and using "real" blackpowder, the ignition is fast and a lot of fun to shoot. My go to gun for hunting is a CVA Frontier Carbine in .54, 1:48 twist,90 grs. FFG and a Lee REAL bullet, deer drop dead "right now" with this and it doesn't mess up a lot of meat. On the other hand, my round ball .50's seem to get the job done just fine also. I'm not a strict traditionalist, but I think that the new in-lines are a darn far cry from what the "primitive" season was ment to be, the other side of the coin is we have so many whitetails now that car/deer accidents are a daily occurence and the herd needs thinning out. We had a spectacular one here a week ago where 1/2 the deer wound up in the cab of a pickup right beside the driver..... I guess its the hunter and his frame of mind that makes a hunter or a slob, not the type of gun he uses.

hpdrifter
02-14-2006, 11:29 PM
Have a '74 TC Hawken 50. Been wanting to get a GreeN Mountain .54 round ball barrel and use the original 50 for just Maxi Hunters, but haven't done so yet.

Building a 54 Henry rifle with both percussion and flint L&R Locks. Can't seem to get it finished for shooting my 45/70. Kinda grown acustom to the 45 recoil and have considered an inline just for the "magnum" aspect, but suspect I will be satisfied with the irons in the fire for now.

Also have a 1803 Harpers Ferry repro, not the newest 54, but the old 58; darn it and a 12 gauge double percussion. Just gave away an old CVA longrifle to a friend and have a Renegade 54 flint that needs to go.

Use holy black or pyrodex. Either requires the same clean up and I enjoy cleaning my firearms.

waksupi
02-15-2006, 01:14 AM
Ok, you guys. For those who have hunted with RB, and pointy bullets, why do you consider the pointy bullets better? I've killed some pretty big stuff with RB's, and seen a lot more killed, including a few truck loads of buffalo. If a bullet is properly placed, the critter dies. I know of a total of zero people around here who hunt with the conicals, and deer, elk, and bear are the common targets. And, of the same number, zero hunt with inlines. And there are a lot of ML hunters in this area. Can you give me a quantative number, on how much tougher, or whatever, the animals are in your areas, that require on deer, more power than was commonly used on buffalo, a hundred years fourty ago?

explain yourselves! ;o)

Personal experience with both projectiles only, same bullet placement. Distance secondary factor. No quotes from magazines allowed.

OldBob
02-15-2006, 08:50 AM
waksupi, I think you said it.........bullet placment matters, bullet type is not nearly as critical. I use the conicals because my .54 shoots them better, thats the only reason. My .50 cal guns are all 1:66 twist and use round balls just fine, and thats what they get, I don't feel a bit "undergunned" using them and have never had to chase down a deer I shot with them. Most of our shooting is well under 100 yds., NY places a .45 minimum cal on the rifle and even at that size a round ball works just fine, I personally believe a .36 or a .40 would get the job done without much fuss....if the bullet placement was right .

PatMarlin
02-15-2006, 10:44 AM
RB's simply just do not do as wells as conicals on crack heads in S. Kalifornia Ric...

Don't ask me how I know... :mrgreen: ...:shock:

OldBob
02-15-2006, 07:18 PM
Pat, is there any bag limit on them ??? Kinda like shooting ground squirrels I guess, almost as usless after shooting as they were before.

hpdrifter
02-15-2006, 09:19 PM
Ok, you guys. For those who have hunted with RB, and pointy bullets, why do you consider the pointy bullets better? I've killed some pretty big stuff with RB's, and seen a lot more killed, including a few truck loads of buffalo. If a bullet is properly placed, the critter dies. I know of a total of zero people around here who hunt with the conicals, and deer, elk, and bear are the common targets. And, of the same number, zero hunt with inlines. And there are a lot of ML hunters in this area. Can you give me a quantative number, on how much tougher, or whatever, the animals are in your areas, that require on deer, more power than was commonly used on buffalo, a hundred years fourty ago?

explain yourselves! ;o)

Personal experience with both projectiles only, same bullet placement. Distance secondary factor. No quotes from magazines allowed.


Waki, don't know if you know anything about TC Hawkens, but it's got kinda shallow rifling. It'll still shoot round balls well, but at max levels, the accuracy kinda wonders on mine. So, I use maxi hunters in that particular rifle about half the time. I wouldlike to acquire a RB barrel(better suited anyway) so I could/would use them more. I have about 5 mayonnaise jars full of balls aching to get launched.

The Henry will definitely be RB. Kilt a couple of deer with each and dead is dead. It does seem the RB deer have wondered a bit further, not enough to worry about tho.

PatMarlin
02-15-2006, 09:21 PM
Now limit back here Bob.

Last time I bagged a few a game warden gave me a warning cause I didn't have an urban crack head stamp with my license through.. :mrgreen:

You OldBob over at the church?

OldBob
02-16-2006, 06:37 PM
Shore nuff', I'm OldBob most anywhere I wander, it helps defeat the CRS disease!

PatMarlin
02-16-2006, 07:10 PM
Shore nuff', I'm OldBob most anywhere I wander, it helps defeat the CRS disease!


I kinda live by that varmit Wheelchair Bandit. I sure do get a kick outta readin' your guys trails and tribulations over there. It'd be a smash hit real life TV show sitcom fo sho.. :mrgreen:

Specially Black Prince and Blackwater... Arch Bishops and Deacons..hee, hee.. :drinks:

mparks
07-06-2006, 08:23 AM
Nothing but sidelocks for me. Renegade, GPR, and New Englander 12 Ga.

windwalker
07-06-2006, 10:43 AM
i ownley shoot traditional guns dont like inlines.i shoot mini's in my side locks as where i live in west oz there is to greater risk of bush fires with patch and ball so i leave them for rainge shooting. i will shoot round ball in the winter though but not in the summer.
bernie:-D

Old Ironsights
07-06-2006, 11:48 AM
I have three traditionals, and wouldn't allow one of the new plastic guns in the house. I have a twenty bore NW tradegun, an Alexander Henry English sporter, a Beckwith style Pennsylvania, and a couple pistols around, one Pedersoli, and one I built.
Ya mean like one of these plastic guns?:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/IMG_4259.jpg

That's a Stainless & Black Plastic TC Firestorm .50 Flintlock on the rest up there.

I like to have my cake and eat it too, so it's "Modern Traditional" for me. I even use an Aluminium Powder "Horn". :twisted:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/IMGP2612.jpg

(I also have a .50 inline ML barrel for my Mossberg 500, but I've almost stopped using it entirely...)

Underclocked
07-07-2006, 11:38 AM
I don't care if you hunt with a sidelock, why should you care if someone else hunts with an inline? Neither one is superior to the other overall.

Having been a muzzleloader user since 1971, I find myself a little resentful of the "two pellets and a powerbelt" mentality but if they are out there obeying the law and having fun, what gives me the right to deny them that pleasure?

"My partner turned down a hunting show for Cabella's as they wanted him to shoot a White. He said he would rather eat horse dung on live TV." I agree with him, I would much rather see him do that. ;)

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But, you know what they say......

http://aycu26.webshots.com/image/1905/1244440322987575804_th.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/viewimage?imageID=1244440322987575804)

rmb721
07-11-2006, 10:42 AM
Yes. Everybody has one, some are one.

KCSO
07-11-2006, 03:57 PM
In the late 60's early 70's I worked with several muzzleloading clubs and the State Game Commission to get a muzzleloading deer season. Part of that work was dedicated to proving that muzzleloaders were NOT a modern weapon. Limited range and killing power, slow reloading and the lack of total reliability were part of the reason we got a special season. Now we are innundated with guns that in their own advertising are stressing NO range limitations, ease and speed of reloading and total reliability. I don't care who hunts with what, but I see just as much connection between a M700 remchester and I do to a WCVA inline. So I belong to a primitive club and I shoot at primitive matches and I try not to think about inlines and life is good. The Game Commission decided real quick after the first season that they would never sell enough permits to a flintlock only crew and they copped out for the money, so be it, I'll just have to suck up and live with it. It was somewhat humerous that our club had 17 members before M/L deer season was adopted. The first year after we jumped to 93 and after inlines were allowed we dropped back to 23 members. Like most folks who call ever Fall, "I'm not interested in anythng but hunting another season".

I am still convinced that percussion caps are a passing fad, and the recurve bow won't catch on. If you have an ugly wife or an inline it is no skin off my nose so long as I don't have to look.

Nuff' Said

PatMarlin
07-11-2006, 04:12 PM
If you have an ugly wife or an inline it is no skin off my nose so long as I don't have to look.

Nuff' Said



......................:mrgreen:


...

waksupi
07-11-2006, 08:10 PM
Ya mean like one of these plastic guns?:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/IMG_4259.jpg

That's a Stainless & Black Plastic TC Firestorm .50 Flintlock on the rest up there.

I like to have my cake and eat it too, so it's "Modern Traditional" for me. I even use an Aluminium Powder "Horn". :twisted:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/IMGP2612.jpg

(I also have a .50 inline ML barrel for my Mossberg 500, but I've almost stopped using it entirely...)

Ironsights, aside from assaulting my asthetic tastes, I do support your choice of weapon, as it carries the spirit. Go for it!

Underclocked
07-12-2006, 12:59 AM
I have yet to see a single inline owner/poster attack someone for choosing an arc-action rifle.

waksupi
07-12-2006, 08:34 AM
I have yet to see a single inline owner/poster attack someone for choosing an arc-action rifle.

That's just cuz they is embarrassed. Kinda like owning a cat. Nothing really wrong with it, you just don't want everyone to know!:drinks:

PatMarlin
07-12-2006, 09:41 AM
I think arc-action rifle owners have organization and communication issues. Problems with keeping their ducks in a row so-to-speak, and coming out of the closet with their true feelings. Always side stepping the problem instead of taking a clean direct approach. Hence their need to beat around the bush when professing their true emotions... their outright all consuming rage towards inline muzzle loader users, that only manifests itself by suppressing a deep primal instinct and thereby producing polite, or semi polite posts on the subject.. :mrgreen:

Old Ironsights
07-12-2006, 12:36 PM
Ironsights, aside from assaulting my asthetic tastes, I do support your choice of weapon, as it carries the spirit. Go for it!
What's even more fun is going to PC rondys fully kitted out in "Period Modern".

Totally messes with people's heads. (Is that a Gerber 'hawk???) :twisted:

Underclocked
07-12-2006, 01:41 PM
http://aycu36.webshots.com/image/3275/1634303590396953297_th.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/viewimage?imageID=1634303590396953297)

hope the pic doesn't permanently damage anyone. :mrgreen: Just keep clickin'.

Old Ironsights
07-12-2006, 02:09 PM
http://aycu36.webshots.com/image/3275/1634303590396953297_th.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/viewimage?imageID=1634303590396953297)

hope the pic doesn't permanently damage anyone. :mrgreen: Just keep clickin'.
Actually, that Firestorm is one of the best intro's to muzzleloading I've found.

When I go to the local "Black Rifle" range, most of the AR/AK shooters won't pay a lick of attention to a ML guy... inline or sidelock, and will actively ignore anyone in PC gear.

However, when I break out the Firestorm, I get guys comming up all the time. I tell them it's my "Assault Flintlock" :groner:

I'll lop off a light Round ball, then quickly drop a "speedloader" 360gr minnieball on top of 150gr of 3F... My lock is nice and fast, no ssshboom, just POW -stuff- BOOOM!

That generally impresses them enough to drop the Black Rifle Superiority Complex and really start asking questions. :drinks:

Most don't give up their black rifles, but I've had more than a few tell me they had to buy one like mine. :mrgreen:

PatMarlin
07-12-2006, 03:38 PM
I have to admit these are some hot looking firearms...

Old Ironsights
07-12-2006, 04:38 PM
I have to admit these are some hot looking firearms...
But they're not Black Plastic & Stainless Flintlocks.

I think it is the whole "Whoa! That's a Flintlock?!?!" thing that attracts the attention over the inlines you posted.

Not saying the Firestorm is "better", just that IMEX it attracts more positive attention than inlines or more "traditional" wood sidelocks.

waksupi
07-12-2006, 09:01 PM
the following is info from another page. I am not responsible for the content!


Here are the reported NMLRA Western Championship scores from 2005... I thought this was interesting and comes as no surprise to me whatsoever.

You will note that the "all mighty inline" that the manufactures claim to be such a good accurate hunting muzzleloader - can not even beat the following:

NOTE: 1 through 5 are shot with traditional muzzleloaders,,, while A & B are shot with inlines... These are 20 shot Aggregates also where a max score is 200-20X...


1. Flintlock Bench Championship (Agg. C)-Al Kramer 185-4X, Ira Thumma 184-2X, Charlie Brown 179-1X.

2. Women's Offhand Championship (Agg. K)-Neysa Bush 135-1X, Teri Schwindt 131-1X, Susy Larson 128-1X.

3. Benchrest Championship (Agg. M)-Charlie Brown 192-1X, Al Kramer 190-3X, Ted Sanders 180-2X.

4. Smoothbore Championship (Agg. Y)-Kirk Mathew 146, Jack Henson 140, Joe Ed McCray 139.

5. Sighted Smoothbore Championship (Agg. JJ)-Jack Henson 165-1X, Joe Ed McCray 154-1X, Glenn Benson 151-1X.

A. Inline Offhand Championship (Agg. IO)-Ron Fowler 106, Vincent Pelly 103-1X, Roger Schaefer 75.

B. Inline Bench Championship (Agg. IB)-Al Kramer 144-2X, Vincent Pelly 139-4X, Donald Lemker 136-1X.

Now with this proof before us, how can anyone continue to claim that these inlines are as accurate as the manufactures claim. Afterall, aren't these NMLRA National Shoots a "proving ground" for what muzzleloaders can do?

This is so laughable... Smoothbores with and without rear sights are smoken these inlines. It's obvious that an inline can not even be benched and out shoot a smoothbore with no rear sight.

PatMarlin
07-12-2006, 09:40 PM
That's amazing.

I need to shoot my smooth bore more. I really need to do some barrel smoothing work on it also... :drinks:

Underclocked
07-12-2006, 10:58 PM
I think the numbers tend to show inline hunters are at an even greater disadvantage than you sidelock shooters. So inliners should get to keep the more traditional muzzleloader seasons while you sidelockers are still free to hunt the centerfire seasons. :wink: :kidding:

That's the very same logic applied by many, just in reverse. And no, I don't own a cat. :mrgreen:

waksupi
07-12-2006, 11:02 PM
I believe when you look at the scores shot by Al Kramer, the figures become more interesting. Here is a guy who is an accomplished flint shooter, who cannot accomplish a better score, with the "improved" inlines. Draw your own conclusions.

Underclocked
07-12-2006, 11:10 PM
My conclusion is "smoke 'em if ya got 'em"! :-D

PatMarlin
07-12-2006, 11:15 PM
Only problem I see with inlines as mentioned before is if it harms muzzleloaders hunting seasons.

I own an inline shotgun, and 2 sidelocks, plus one cat who has been my buddy for 15 years, and I don't care who knows it.. :Fire:....................................... :mrgreen:

Old Ironsights
07-12-2006, 11:29 PM
I think the difference/problem is that inlines were/are not designed for "one hole" accuracy as much as "magnum power/range 'minute of deer'" accuracy.

IMO/IMEX inlines are at an extreme disadvantage when it comes to paper punching, where sidelocks can be tweaked to be much more "rounded" guns.

I would be interested to know what kind of bullet/sabot the inlines were shooting - 'cause (almost by design) they can't shoot PRB for dick.

Underclocked
07-13-2006, 02:23 AM
http://aycu02.webshots.com/image/721/1036918200914551064_th.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/viewimage?imageID=1036918200914551064)

Some of 'em do a little better than minute of deer. :)

Old Ironsights
07-13-2006, 10:42 AM
Yeah, some can, but they will never "compete" with traditional/target guns because they really aren't designed to. They are hunting tools.

versifier
07-13-2006, 12:11 PM
If they get a shooter interested in muzzle loading, that's a good thing. A good percentage will want to explore the world of front stuffers more thoroughly, and that will lead many to traditionals. They also encourage more hunters, and that's a bonus for us all, too. In this day and age, I believe we all need to be as supportive as we can of any interest in all kinds of shooting. From a newbe's perspective, if an inline seems to be more user-friendly and can be bought for what seems to him (or her) to be a reasonable price, then it's one more joining us. I don't feel that a lot of hunters are serious shooters, and a lot of serious shooters don't hunt much, but the novelty of muzzle loading can be enough to capture the imagination. After learning to experiment with propellants and all the various available kinds of projectiles, it can get someone to wondering about handloading for centerfires and how much $ can be saved. [smilie=1: Then a look at the prices of commercial bullets can nudge one in the direction of casting, only to become a hopeless addict like the rest of us. :mrgreen:
Anything that can draw more people into our sport/hobby/passion/addiction we should be all for, even if it doesn't float our personal boat. I shoot traditionals, but I will give nothing but encouragement to a friend or acquaintance considering an inline to be able to hunt the extra days for muzzle loader season. Likewise, the only shotgunning I generally do is when chasing birds around, but I voted for the significant cash outlay for the new clay bird pitcher at our club because the weekly trap shoots bring new people to our club. Many of them end up joining and bringing friends and family members along to get hooked, too. I am not into the big social event scene, and I shoot midweek when there are few or no other shooters, but more dues means better maintainence, more trout for the stock pond, etc. It's like the pebble at the top of the hill that becomes an avalanche. Every new shooter is another pebble, and if it's an inline that get's them started, I'll cast them a few boolits and give them some different powder to try. :drinks:

PatMarlin
07-13-2006, 12:33 PM
I don't feel that a lot of hunters are serious shooters, and a lot of serious shooters don't hunt much...

THAT is so true.

Another great thing about BP is no registration... A HUGE PLUS!!!..... :drinks:

Old Ironsights
07-13-2006, 02:41 PM
RE: versifier

You are absolutely correct. While I rarely shoot my inline any more, I keep it around as a "learner-loaner" for those skittish about setting off 4F in their face. :D

And I have never understood the "hunter" who will spend days/weeks in the feild prepping for the season but only break out the gun 2 weeks before to make sure it's still zero'd. (or worse, not prepare at all...)

Ya don't have to compete to shoot, but you do have to shoot to compete.

44man
07-13-2006, 04:15 PM
I stay with traditional all the way because I have built my own rifles for years and have taken many, many deer with them. I use nothing but patched round balls and will go against any inline to 100 yd's and maybe even 200. I have brought home thousands of dollars in groceries from shoots. Once learned they are easier to load and shoot then the inline. My friends all shoot and hunt with inlines and they go nuts after a shot or two trying to load again without cleaning. I see them putting the ramrod against a tree to get the bullets down. No thanks, I can shoot all day without ever wiping the bore and don't lose accuracy. The inlines need the substitute black powders that cost a lot more then black so they can't be shot as much without running into a lot of money. Sabot's and Power Belts aren't cheap either.
If you look at all the facts, the inline is a pain in the ***. The only advantage is they can shoot farther, flatter. Is that what muzzle loader hunting is about?
I don't care if anyone uses them but I will never buy one.

waksupi
07-13-2006, 08:33 PM
For any of you who may be in NW Montana the first weekend in August. I am sponsoring the first World Championship smoothbore matches. We may draw 30-40 people, if we are lucky. Guns must be smoothbore, flintlock, snaphaunce, or matchlock. No rear sights. Shot and ball events. Lots of people in this area are really getting into the fowlers, and trade guns. And there are people who will shoot right up to any rifle shooter, within ML ranges. I can generally finish in the top 10, shooting my trade gun in rifle matches, with maybe 180 shooters involved. These are trailwalk type shoots.

RugerFan
07-14-2006, 01:20 AM
My friends all shoot and hunt with inlines and they go nuts after a shot or two trying to load again without cleaning. I see them putting the ramrod against a tree to get the bullets down. No thanks, I can shoot all day without ever wiping the bore and don't lose accuracy.....Sabot's and Power Belts aren't cheap either.

As stated earlier, I have both hawken and inline MLs and enjoy shooting and taking game with both. With the inline, I won't touch Power Belts. My .50 cal inline is just another avenue for me to shoot my own cast .429 bullets (in sabots). For me, Power Belts would just defeat the purpose of using that particular firearm.

I have the best of both worlds. The hawken for when I'm feeling old school, while the inline entertains me in an entirely different fashion.

Any loading difficulty is easily overcome. I recently hand-lapped the bore with LBT lapping compound and now use American Pioneer powder. It literally takes 2 patches (one wet and one dry) to clean after many shots.

44man
07-14-2006, 10:15 AM
I have read some real horror stories about that powder. Have you had any problems with it? I am a confirmed Swiss BP user and won't change. But I read all the sites and everyone has a bad opinion of AP powder.

Bucks Owin
07-14-2006, 01:47 PM
FWIW, I hate "modern" front loaders and think that they should not be allowed as "primitive weapons" as far as hunting goes. As high tone target rifles, fine, but they were made for one reason IMO, and that is to "cheat" when muzzleloader hunting season comes around....

A "muzzleloader" with a plastic stock, speedlock, shotgun primer, rangefinder scope etc etc etc is NOT a "muzzleloader"! It's a high tech black powder single shot...

Grrrr....

Dennis

Old Ironsights
07-14-2006, 02:01 PM
Watch out with the "Plastic stock" thing. Wood or plastic does not a Muzzleloader make. My TC Flintlock happens to have a plastic stock (see pic above). It is in no real, material way different than a TC Hawken with a wood stock. it has no better range or ballistics than any other 1/48 gun.

Eliteisim does nothing but divide shooters and make us easier to pick off by the Antis - who no more believe we have the right to a Flintlock than an M16.

Bucks Owin
07-14-2006, 02:11 PM
A "primitive weapon" does not have a plastic stock IMO....

At the range, Yea. In the woods, Nay!

JMO,

Dennis

BTW, there is nothing "eliteist" about it, I just feel that a high tech black powder single shot should not be allowed to hunt in the "primitive weapon" season.....There's really not much disadvantage to hunting with such a "muzzleloader" against a Ruger #1 except perhaps at long range (depending on calibers)...Hell, you can even load one almost as fast with a plastic "cartridge"! :roll:

StarMetal
07-14-2006, 02:26 PM
I think Bass can correct me on this if I'm wrong, as it's been some time that I lived in PA. They originally only had a primitive black powder season. Only thing legal were flintlocks, with patched ball, and iron sights. Then I heard they changed that to allow a conical or sabot slug, but still flintlock and iron sights. Then I think they made an addition black powder season were all black powder rifles were legal.

You could alway use a blackpowder rifle of anykind in regular rifle season if I'm not mistaken.

When I lived in Ohio for a short while, I refused to use a shotgun in there deer gun season. I just plum hate shotguns for anything besides small game hunting. So I bought a TC inline for deer gun season. Now I owned a farm with woods so I used my rifles on my own personal land whether they liked it or not. Most of the time that was a Browning 1886 in 45-70 with a 405 cast bullet.

Joe

Old Ironsights
07-14-2006, 03:31 PM
A "primitive weapon" does not have a plastic stock IMO....

At the range, Yea. In the woods, Nay!

JMO,

Dennis

BTW, there is nothing "eliteist" about it, I just feel that a high tech black powder single shot should not be allowed to hunt in the "primitive weapon" season.....There's really not much disadvantage to hunting with such a "muzzleloader" against a Ruger #1 except perhaps at long range (depending on calibers)...Hell, you can even load one almost as fast with a plastic "cartridge"! :roll:

Sigh. What about Plastic changes the ballistics or operational realities of an exposed ignition sidelock?

And it bloody well is elitist as well as illogicall and uninformed to tell me that this gun:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/5049sm.jpg

which uses this lock:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/IMG_4224.jpg

is not acceptable for muzzleloader/primitive season just because you don't like plastic. [smilie=b:

Try getting off your high horse and pay attention to what people are saying.

I think modern, high-pressure, enclosed ignition inlines DO violate both the intent and spirit of a muzzleloader/primitive season. But that's not because of the materials used, rather because of the design and ballistics - which are decidedly NOT in keeping with traditional muzzleloading/primitive ballistic ranges.

How primitive is primitive enough? You prefer Hand Twisted Damascus barrels over modern steels that won't blow up?

Maybe #11 caps are too modern and only Flinters should be allowed - unless you don't like how they look...

I suppose I could always resort to a snapchance or arquebus or matchlock... that is, unless I use a plastic ramrod or properly corned modern Black Powder. :roll:

It's because of people with opinions like yours that more people DON'T pick up the sport. and that's sad. :mad:

44man
07-14-2006, 03:57 PM
Bucks, dontcha know that when some "hunters" see a deer they can't shoot, the first thought is to get something to shoot farther? Cheat any which way instead of getting closer and actually hunting. And of course, the gun has to be loaded faster. Many guys can't stand to let a deer walk and hunt again another day.
I can't tell you how many times I have NOT shot and hung my bow on the rope so I could enjoy the deer. Had 17 one day bumping into my bow as they fed under me. Same with guns, don't have to shoot at every one. A lot of hunters are gone and the woods are full of shooters now.
Yes, I use compound bows but they don't shoot any farther then the recurve. I also won't use less then 65% letoff with my 80# bows. A lot of guys have gone to 80% so they can draw and hold it back for 5 minutes. Might as well have a crossbow. Then there are the super light arrows that won't penetrate a deer but they shoot flatter so the guy doesn't have to estimate the range. Yeah, it is in every type of hunting, make it easy instead of enjoying the hunt and going home without a deer once in a while.
I never hunt with a modern rifle any more. (I only killed 3 deer with them before giving them up.) I go to revolvers after bow season. I get as many deer as the rifle hunters around here, maybe more and I have more fun.

PatMarlin
07-14-2006, 03:58 PM
THAT is a purdy sidelock... :drinks:

-wouldn't mind having that one.. :mrgreen:

PatMarlin
07-14-2006, 04:03 PM
Talk about a guy having to shoot...

An old freind of mine just boughta Model 700 in 7mm, with bipod, and heavy scope. He has to have all that firepower and distance but hunts mainly in the woods.. :roll:

Just as you say, instead of learning how to hunt, they fire scud missles and hope to hit something.. :mrgreen:

Old Ironsights
07-14-2006, 04:16 PM
THAT is a purdy sidelock... :drinks:

-wouldn't mind having that one.. :mrgreen:
Shh. Don't tell anyone but it's cast stainless steel. It's all wrong 'cause they didn't do it that way back in the day... And don't get me started on the coil spring on the other side. Ben Franklin would NOT have approved. :roll:

RugerFan
07-14-2006, 05:45 PM
I have read some real horror stories about that powder. Have you had any problems with it? I am a confirmed Swiss BP user and won't change. But I read all the sites and everyone has a bad opinion of AP powder.

Accuracy is as good as 777 in my CVA Optima Pro. I don't currently have a chronograph, so I can't give you velocity data. I have had no problems so far and am very happy with it.

Bucks Owin:
You have a point saying that inlines violate the intent of "primitive weapons" season. I often use my inline during the regular rifle season to make things more challenging (and again to use my own cast bullets).

Bucks Owin
07-14-2006, 05:50 PM
Sigh. What about Plastic changes the ballistics or operational realities of an exposed ignition sidelock?

And it bloody well is elitist as well as illogicall and uninformed to tell me that this gun:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/5049sm.jpg

which uses this lock:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/IMG_4224.jpg

is not acceptable for muzzleloader/primitive season just because you don't like plastic. [smilie=b:

Try getting off your high horse and pay attention to what people are saying.

I think modern, high-pressure, enclosed ignition inlines DO violate both the intent and spirit of a muzzleloader/primitive season. But that's not because of the materials used, rather because of the design and ballistics - which are decidedly NOT in keeping with traditional muzzleloading/primitive ballistic ranges.

How primitive is primitive enough? You prefer Hand Twisted Damascus barrels over modern steels that won't blow up?

Maybe #11 caps are too modern and only Flinters should be allowed - unless you don't like how they look...

I suppose I could always resort to a snapchance or arquebus or matchlock... that is, unless I use a plastic ramrod or properly corned modern Black Powder. :roll:

It's because of people with opinions like yours that more people DON'T pick up the sport. and that's sad. :mad:

Sigh yourself!

How fast can you load a plastic sabot with a bullet inserted in one end and tube shaped pyrodex "powder" inserted on a stem attached to the sabot on the other end in comparison to loading with a powder flask, patch and ball? What about scopes? Is that "primitive weapon"? The whole idea behind primitive weapon hunting seasons was to give those who use them a chance to hunt before the the rest of the mob. When your HIGH TECH BLACK POWDER SINGLE SHOT RIFLE offers no disadvantage to any other cartridge firing weapon why should that rifle be allowed to hunt with the REAL "primitive weapons"?

THINK ABOUT IT!!!!! :roll:

Dennis :twisted:

BTW...You're being ridiculous and grasping at straws with the other comments regarding damascus barrels etc. :roll:

You have your opinion and I have mine. PERIOD! That's what the poll asked....(And if you're in love with "plastic" guns, waterproof ignition, rangefinder scopes on a "primitive weapon" it's fine by me! Just stay the hell out of the woods until it's "ordinary rifle" season. It's simply a matter of sportsmanship IMO....)

Oh and BTW. Your crack regarding "people like me". I take kids shooting. (Not just my own either). I belong to half a dozen shooting organizations. I write letters to government officials and other "anti's". I volunteer at my club whether it's running a match or picking up garbage and cleaning the portapotty! What do you do to help the shooting sports? Hmmmm?

Old Ironsights
07-14-2006, 06:10 PM
Sigh yourself!

How fast can you load a plastic sabot with a bullet inserted in one end and tube shaped pyrodex "powder" inserted on a stem attached to the sabot on the other end in comparison to loading with a powder flask, patch and ball? What about scopes? Is that "primitive weapon"? The whole idea behind primitive weapon hunting seasons was to give those who use them a chance to hunt before the the rest of the mob. When your HIGH TECH BLACK POWDER SINGLE SHOT RIFLE offers no disadvantage to any other cartridge firing weapon why should that rifle be allowed to hunt with the REAL "primitive weapons"?

THINK ABOUT IT!!!!! :roll:

Dennis :twisted:

BTW...You're being ridiculous and grasping at straws with the other comments regarding damascus barrels etc. :roll:

You have your opinion and I have mine. PERIOD! That's what the poll asked....(And if you're in love with "plastic" guns it's fine by me!)

It's nice to see you have no intention of actually reading what I post before expounding on my opinion. :roll:

For the record, I shoot nothing but Real Black Powder in my Flintlock under a Patched Round Ball or Minnie that I cast myself.

My Flintlock is Stainless Steel and Plastic because I used to like to play in and near salt water, plus I flash-rust even stainless with my acidic skin.

I think Inlines and scopes are fine for GUN season but are inappropriate for a PRIMATIVE season.

As far as being rediculous... am I? Who determines exactly what makes a gun "primitave"? A functionally primitave firearm is a functionally primitave firearm. A functionally modern firearm is a functionally modern firearm. It matters not one whit what they are made of.

Underclocked
07-14-2006, 06:19 PM
While it has already been shown that some of the finest shooters in the country can do no better with a "HIGH TECH BLACK POWDER SINGLE SHOT RIFLE" on targets than with a "primitive" flintlock, it remains perfectly clear (to some) the fancy inlines are shamefully superior to their own "primitive" and spiritually correct Italian/Spanish reproductions.

My Whites are loaded either from a flask or a vial of powder, usually followed by a wad and a large, pure lead conical. The action is a plunger and is wide open, #11 caps produce the ignition. I owe to any creature I might aim at to make the best shot I possibly can - I can do that with my Whites and I use them in every season I can. My centerfires haven't been fired in so long they may be welded to the cabinet.

Easier to load? Generally speaking about inlines - you have GOT to be kidding! Never let facts influence your opinions.

Just shoot and have fun. Let the next guy do the same. I started traditional way back when and find the inlines more accommodating to my aging, messed up vision.

If one helped to build a temple, of course only the builders would be welcome in that temple.... right?

Bucks Owin
07-14-2006, 06:37 PM
It's nice to see you have no intention of actually reading what I post before expounding on my opinion. :roll:

For the record, I shoot nothing but Real Black Powder in my Flintlock under a Patched Round Ball or Minnie that I cast myself.

My Flintlock is Stainless Steel and Plastic because I used to like to play in and near salt water, plus I flash-rust even stainless with my acidic skin.

I think Inlines and scopes are fine for GUN season but are inappropriate for a PRIMATIVE season.

As far as being rediculous... am I? Who determines exactly what makes a gun "primitave"? A functionally primitave firearm is a functionally primitave firearm. A functionally modern firearm is a functionally modern firearm. It matters not one whit what they are made of.

Sounds like we agree more than disagree....:drinks:

My apologies,

Dennis

(But I still hate "plastic" on anything other than a full tilt BR rifle....) :-D

Old Ironsights
07-14-2006, 11:31 PM
While it has already been shown that some of the finest shooters in the country can do no better with a "HIGH TECH BLACK POWDER SINGLE SHOT RIFLE" on targets than with a "primitive" flintlock, it remains perfectly clear (to some) the fancy inlines are shamefully superior to their own "primitive" and spiritually correct Italian/Spanish reproductions.

It's a truisim that the gun is only as good as the shooter.

I believe that earlier I stated that there is no practical advantage to the modern inlines at sub 150 yd ranges using equivelent bullets.

Where inlines have an advantage is in Ultimate trajectory/ballistics using large powder loads and sabot spitzers - which traditonal guns do not do well with, and (in many to most inlines) weather-tight ignition systems.

For all intents and purposes, using the specialized bullets, powders and primers, a modern inline becomes less a "muzzleloader" and more a "center-fire rifle using caseless ammunition". Nowhere is this more true than with the Savage ML10 - a fine single-shot rifle designed to use true smokeless powder in its calseleaa ammunition delivery system. It stretches credulity to categorize such firearms as equivelent to a sidelock of any type.

This is why Washington State demands that even Inlines have ignition systems with exposed caps.

All that said, assuming a Hunter is honest enough to work within the range/velocity limitations of a traditional season by using Roundball or full-caliber conical over loose powder, I really won't bitch if they want to hunt in the primitive season. However, most times all things are not equal and the inline shooter tends to, as Buck said, use one or more of the "enhanced" powder/bullet combinations that puts their rifle into a whole different category of firearm.

In many ways it would be like allowing a Compound Bow with synthetic strings and carbon-fibre arrows in a season designed for Recurves with sinew & wood arrows. At close range, there's not much difference, but in the stretch or in the wet.....

The difference lies in hunting within the spirit, rather than the letter of the regulation.

Modern inline/powder/sabot development is a direct and unintended consequence of allowing people with little or no hunting/shooting/ballistic experience develop Regulations. To the average Citified Rule Writer, a muzzlestuffer is a muzzlestuffer regardless of the ballistic capacity. That's why you can get Rules like they have in Indiana that prohibit using a .45 Ruger Old Army pushing a 200gr REAL with 31 gr 3F to around 1100fps while allowing a .45 Ruger Old Army using a 700fps .45LC "cowboy" load from a Cartridge Conversion cylinder... or allow a 6" .357 or .44 revolver but not a .357 or .44 carbine.

If you really want this sort of thing fixed, you have to demand your State's regs be based on Ballistics, not appearance. Get caught with a spitzer/sabot or weather-tight ignition system during Primitive and get fined - regardless of Lock or Stock. It's really that simple.

Old Ironsights
07-14-2006, 11:38 PM
Sounds like we agree more than disagree....:drinks:

My apologies,

Dennis

(But I still hate "plastic" on anything other than a full tilt BR rifle....) :-D

I thought so too, that's why I was puzzled by your responses.

Plastic may not be pretty, but it's durable, light and easy to clean. I like that in a hunting gun. :mrgreen:

PatMarlin
07-14-2006, 11:39 PM
One thing about plastic, getting away from the BP argument is weight. My 358 Winny has a choate plastic stock that weighs less than a pound. I like that, and am going to pillar bed it. It feels great, and will be stable.

I don't like plastic stocks, but this rifle is amost 3 pounds lighter than my others.. !

It's purely going to be a mean hunting machine.. :mrgreen:

shdwlkr
07-15-2006, 04:32 PM
Well I am late at replying but for me I use traditional why? because when I started shooting black powder that was all that was available.
Three TC's and one of them will be sporting a scope soon. Why? because my old eyes need some help, sorry if that upsets some but I intend to shoot as long as I can and if I need to cheat to keep doing it I am.
I would kind of like to get and inline remington in 54 caliber but haven't found one yet when I had the money to buy. Will I get one someday maybe but maybe not.
Inlines bother me when a company like Savage comes out with one that use smokeless powder and a newbie buys it and uses it and then buys a sidelock and trys to use his smokeless powder in it just like he is used to doing. This is my bigest complain with inlines otherwise I really don't care one way or the other as I have the ones I like and they work for me so why change as they have worked for almost 40 years now and I think they will last until I am finished with them then some of kin can use them or sell them as I won't be needing them.
What do I like about my sidelocks the most? The slower pace they force me to use. When I used to be working that is what I took them out hunting with me for to slow me down so I could see things better worked most of the time. I am no speed demoen on the reloading and don't intend to be as that is why I shoot black powder when I shoot it is to relax and that is just what I do. Several years ago I used to shoot in competition mainly against myself. One day someone made a nasty comment about my low score and how I most likely couldn't anything at any distance either. Well I borrowed a friend's rifle as I was shooting a pistol I was learning how to use and we had a steel target that was about 125-175 yards out and was in the shape and size of a deer. Most of guys in my group could hit it once in a while but not all the time. Well this loud mouth shot at it and missed a few times and I walked up and hit the deer in the heart area a few times and then got bored and handed the rifle back to my friend and thanked him for the chance to shoot long ball or TC calls them hunter or maxi-ball bullets. Up until that day had never shot them. Could I do it now nope that was almost 30 years ago and my eyes have changed since then a lot. Age does that to us.
I think inlines are to get more people shooting blackpowder or substitutes and that is fine with me. I don't like the idea they can be used for black powder hunting seasons but that is only me. Open sights for big game is ok with me also.
I don't like plastic modern rifles or the "black guns" they just don't get me going might be because the last time I had a "balck gun" in my hands it was not to have fun but to maybe stay alive. I don't do that kind of work anymore and see no reason to be reminded of it.
As to the fact that everything is changing and new ideas are coming out that is all part of life. I have seen firearms go from tools to weapons of terrorists and the firearms have gone from wood to plastic to camo to every color in the rainbow. Does that mean that firearms are someday going to be made with plastici barrels that shoot ice bullets maybe but I will stay with what I understand and like and let those who like the new go their way.

eldeguello
07-16-2006, 02:08 PM
Howdy all, just looking to see how many stick with traditional muzzle loader styles? Hawken, Plains, Pensilvainia, ect. ? I have never liked in-lines and will not own one, so I'm always looking for others like myself.

I currently own two "inlines", and occasionally take them to the range and shoot them AT PAPER TARGETS!. However, I prefer more traditional sidelock types, and today am into flintlocks primarily. I just finished building a 1750-style 12-bore (.73 cal) Jaeger,

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v444/eldeguello/1.jpg

which I will use during the PA flintlock season this coming winter. I also shoot the more modern Hawken style rifles, both caplock and flintlock.......

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v444/eldeguello/FLHawken1.jpg

Who says you can't put a scope on a sidelock??

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v444/eldeguello/Hartley50LargeBBLHawken.png

Who says inlines aren't antique enough? (This one's from Germany, C 1835.........) I've also seen flintlock inlines from the mid-1700's!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v444/eldeguello/Percinline.jpg

44man
07-16-2006, 09:56 PM
Notice the crack in the stock? Thats from those Germans in 1835 shooting 150 gr's of 777 and a sabot.

versifier
07-17-2006, 12:42 AM
eldeguello,
Welcome. Glad to see you made it here from the AR forum. You will see a few familiar faces. People are much more open and friendly here as it's like knowing everyone in a small town. Check out the Gunloads and Reloaders Guide fora, too. :drinks:
Questions: Is that 1835 German inline a caplock? It looks like there's a nipple under the trap door, but I wasn't sure. Is that part of the cocking mechanism sticking out the side like a clock post? The design and setup of it is fascinating and I would like to learn more about it if you would indulge me. In any event, thanks for posting that shot of it, it's certainly got me thinking (no bad thing at any time). :mrgreen:

PatMarlin
07-17-2006, 11:26 AM
eldeguello,
Welcome. Glad to see you made it here from the AR forum. You will see a few familiar faces. People are much more open and friendly here as it's like knowing everyone in a small town.

Boy you ain't kiddin'.

I PM'd a guy with a question and you'd think I was a popper in their magic kindom. To low down the hiarchy to have a helpful question answered.. :roll:

...

brayhaven
07-23-2006, 05:41 PM
Looks like most here prefer traditional ML's and I'm glad to see it. I like flintlocks & perc rifles & shotguns. Either originals or ones I've built in the "more or less" original patterns. One gun I carry a lot is an original 20 ga perc. double that I re-lined the right barrel to 45 rifle. Shortened to 28" barrels & put sights on. I did put a screw in choke tube in the shot barrel, but I figured the old guy in Carlysle, PA who made it way back when would forgive me that little indiscretion. I also built a Mule ear rifle last year, lock & all, that I shoot offhand competition with. I shoot it better than any modern rifle I own. Good to see tradition alive here on CB. If God had wanted man to have plastic stocks, he'd have planted plastic trees :o).
Greg

waksupi
07-23-2006, 06:51 PM
I was at a shoot this weekend, all traditional. We had right on 200 shooters, from as far away as Edmundton, Alberta, to Texas and Daytona beach, Florida.
Very hot, and all shooting was shut down by 2PM each day, because of fire danger. And, we still had two fires to deal with. We will most likely be restricting some types of patch lubes in the future, to eliminate this problem. The Bore Butter, and Wonderlube have proven thierselves to be very bad about this over the years.
It is extremely dry in the woods, so if you are travelling the west, be very careful.
This was the first year this shoot has offered a separate smoothbore flintlock class. We were surprised at all that showed up, with some very fine English, French, and Eastern fowlers on the line, along with several types of trade guns. Most of us with smoothbores, also shot them in the rifle part of the competition. We may have not come out on top, but they knew someone was there trying hard!
I had scheduled in a smoothbore match to run in a couple weeks, but with fire restrictions now in stage one, and stage two right around the corner in a couple days, I imagine this will have to be cancelled this time around.
Retrogression, can be fun!

brayhaven
07-24-2006, 08:38 AM
The modern ML Vs traditional, debate always churns up strong feelings, as it has here. I love the traditional wood stocked rifles & smoothbores as well as shotguns, and that's my preference. I hunt most of the modern season with a flinter. But, I don't hold it against those who choose to go afield with a modern, inline, 209 primed, plastic stocked, "thingamajig". I think they are mssing out on major part of the allure & satisfaction of BP hunting, though. I may tease them a bit about their "mattel" or tupperware equipment, but I don't hold it against them :o). I feel sorry for them, but I sure don't resent them :o). Good hunting.
Greg

Old Ironsights
07-24-2006, 11:04 AM
The modern ML Vs traditional, debate always churns up strong feelings, as it has here. I love the traditional wood stocked rifles & smoothbores as well as shotguns, and that's my preference. I hunt most of the modern season with a flinter. But, I don't hold it against those who choose to go afield with a modern, inline, 209 primed, plastic stocked, "thingamajig". I think they are mssing out on major part of the allure & satisfaction of BP hunting, though. I may tease them a bit about their "mattel" or tupperware equipment, but I don't hold it against them :o). I feel sorry for them, but I sure don't resent them :o). Good hunting.
GregThat's why my plastic stocked "thingamajig" is a Stainless Steel Flintlock. That way I get to annoy everybody. :mrgreen:

brayhaven
07-25-2006, 10:17 AM
That's why my plastic stocked "thingamajig" is a Stainless Steel Flintlock. That way I get to annoy everybody. :mrgreen:

I don't dislike plastic stocks because they aren't traditional. I dislike them mostly because they are butt ugly :roll: But, since yours is a flinter, I may give it a pass (IMO). As a gunsmith, I've seen some pretty ugly wood stocks too :) .
Greg

Old Ironsights
07-25-2006, 10:52 AM
I don't dislike plastic stocks because they aren't traditional. I dislike them mostly because they are butt ugly :roll: But, since yours is a flinter, I may give it a pass (IMO). As a gunsmith, I've seen some pretty ugly wood stocks too :) .
Greg
Can't disagree with you at all. But a man't got to make sacrifices. Besides, that's the only way it came. If I wanted Stainless (which was a must for me) it came on Plastic. :mrgreen:

I may have a custom stock (no stock stock will fit) made for it some day, but it will likely cost more than the gun.

(Then again, I'm putting a black plastic Ramline on my (matte stainless) Rossi .357/1892 so I can have a "PC" "Black Gun"... I'll use the Wood for CAS, but the black plastic is just so light and useful - plus, it annoys people. :mrgreen:

brayhaven
07-26-2006, 06:32 PM
Can't disagree with you at all. But a man't got to make sacrifices. Besides, that's the only way it came. If I wanted Stainless (which was a must for me) it came on Plastic. :mrgreen:

:

As a Floridian, I can sure sympathize with that. I built a short fowler with a queen anne lock last year and decided to make the barrel from scratch (never again). http://onfinite.com/libraries/731048/fe4.jpg I made it out of 416 stainless with a part octagon/part round in 24 ga. Those folks don't charge nearly enough for a barrel :???:
I also have a carbon graphite & fiberglass stock on my stainless barrelled Alaska rifle so I'm not totally without guilt <G>

You could probably make a nice stock for that rifle yourself. Polished stainless looks good. A lot of the old guns were left bright with no bluing or browning. I'm curious about that stainless lock. Is the frizzen stainless too? How does it spark? What kind of flints do you use with it?

Greg

Old Ironsights
07-27-2006, 12:12 AM
I'm sort of partial to the "in the white" look of matte/bead-blasted stainless.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/IMG_4734.jpg


My Flinter is a stock Thompson Center "Firestorm". The only thing I've done to it is lower the frizzen heel & a bit of smoothing. The Frizzen is cast - of what I don't know - and painted(?) black. It sparks fine.

I use primarily cut agates, though I have also used cut arkansas chert. Until I tuned my lock, I didn't have much luck with Knapped Black English flints, however, I am looking to try knapping my own one of these days.

I probably won't try to make a stock though. I don't have any woodworking tools or skills.

brayhaven
07-27-2006, 09:50 AM
I'm sort of partial to the "in the white" look of matte/bead-blasted stainless.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/IMG_4734.jpg


My Flinter is a stock Thompson Center "Firestorm". The only thing I've done to it is lower the frizzen heel & a bit of smoothing. The Frizzen is cast - of what I don't know - and painted(?) black. It sparks fine.

I use primarily cut agates, though I have also used cut arkansas chert. Until I tuned my lock, I didn't have much luck with Knapped Black English flints, however, I am looking to try knapping my own one of these days.

I probably won't try to make a stock though. I don't have any woodworking tools or skills.

I would say the frizzen is a carbon steel of some sort. stainless alloys haven't sparked very well for me; playing around with making a 440C firestarter and talking with the lock people.
You could probably have someone with a stock duplicator use your plastic one as a form and make you one that wouldn't take much woodworking skill to finish.
Knapping flint is fun & challenging, but for a sparking flint you can't use heat treated flint, which knaps better.
Greg

mazo kid
07-29-2006, 12:44 AM
Muzzleloader=traditional in my mind. If you want to shoot an in-line, so be it. You might just as well shoot a Rem 700 if you want to shoot a m/l for hunting. In my mind, it just means you want an extra deer and you take it with a modern appearing m/l rifle. Many States limit hunts to an external hammer rifle moving in an arc. This is only my opinion and if you are hunting M/L with an inline then keep on doing it. We need to be unified in this respect. Emery

gregg
08-06-2006, 06:05 AM
Muzzleloader=traditional in my mind. If you want to shoot an in-line, so be it. You might just as well shoot a Rem 700 if you want to shoot a m/l for hunting. In my mind, it just means you want an extra deer and you take it with a modern appearing m/l rifle. Many States limit hunts to an external hammer rifle moving in an arc. This is only my opinion and if you are hunting M/L with an inline then keep on doing it. We need to be unified in this respect. Emery

YUP. Thats the way I feel. I like the look of old rifles. Levers, bolts,pumps or single shots... Old guns just have nice lines. Inlines don't.

50 Caliber
08-27-2006, 02:06 PM
I very much prefer "old Style" smoke poles, I have a Dixie Pennsylvannia 32 cal & a 50cal short rifle, My Daughter's each have a TC, The youngest shoots a Pennsylvannia Hunter the oldest shoots a New Englander. We cast our own ball and Maxi hunters. The Penn Hunter will shot clover leaf groups @ 100yds with 75gr FFFpowder under a 180gr .495 lead ball, the New Englander will shoot 2.5" @ 100yds with 90gr FF and a home cast Maxi Hunter.
OH crap! I almost forgot my Pedersoli 12 Gauge double! Must not do that. I have more fun with that than should be legal....

Ricochet
08-31-2006, 10:01 PM
That's why my plastic stocked "thingamajig" is a Stainless Steel Flintlock. That way I get to annoy everybody. :mrgreen:
You know, it'd be a hoot if someone built a very traditionally styled Pennsylvania long flintlock--in stainless and black plastic.
:mrgreen:

waksupi
08-31-2006, 10:14 PM
You know, it'd be a hoot if someone built a very traditionally styled Pennsylvania long flintlock--in stainless and black plastic.
:mrgreen:

I remember thirty plus years ago, at Prairie Du Chien, Wisconsin, at Villa Louis, the old John Jacob Astor fur trade mansion. A pilgrim showed up with a Thompson Center Hawken, with a chromed barrel. Curly Gostomski was camped next to me, and showed great interest in the rifle. We looked it over closely, and Curly offered the guy more money than it was worth. I was rather wide eyed at that, as Curly owned NorthStar enterprises then, the only manufacturer of trade guns at the time, to the best of my rememberance.
Anyway, the guy took the deal, very pleased with himself, that someone such as Curly would pay a premium for his rifle.
Curly immediately proceeded to the bank of the Mississippi River, that flows right past the grounds. He took hold of the barrel, and with his best effort, pinwheeled the rifle as far as he could, into the Mississippi silt. And I'll bet it is still there! If anyone wants to go diving for it, go straight off the end of the northern most blacktop drive on the grounds, and start searching!

50 Caliber
08-31-2006, 10:47 PM
:bigsmyl2: :-D

Old Ironsights
09-01-2006, 09:27 AM
You know, it'd be a hoot if someone built a very traditionally styled Pennsylvania long flintlock--in stainless and black plastic.
:mrgreen:
If'n you haven't read the whole thread... there's pics of mine. :mrgreen:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=88808&postcount=68

50 Caliber
09-06-2006, 10:29 AM
Is that "gun oil" in the upper right corner of the first picture??? :):)

Old Ironsights
09-06-2006, 11:28 AM
Is that "gun oil" in the upper right corner of the first picture??? :):)
Actually, it was a bottle of "real" Black Bush... There was over 1lb of 4F in there until I got a plastic container to put it in. Made an interesting conversation piece tho.

(I know, I know. Powder in glass = bad. That's why it's not there any more.)

Slamfire
09-23-2006, 09:07 AM
Well I am, but not very. My youngest son bought me a CVA Bobcat for Christmas one year. I stuffed it half full of pyrodox and a Buffalo Ballet. It wouldn't go off. So I found a musket nipple and caps. It went boom when I wanted it too, but sprayed my arm with hot copper. I then bought some Graf & Son labeled black powder and discovered it'd go boom, without the musket caps. Remington's "new, hotter" work just fine. Tried PRBs and they are a little bit more accurate than the ballets.
Thinkin' I'd like a small game rifle, I bought an old Numrich H&A "Buggy Rifle" in .36. Bein' a southpaw I like the underhammer arrangement. It cruds up too fast to use black, preferrin' 777 or Pyrodox "P", so that's what I use.
Then I wanted a smoothbore and latched onto a T/C Renegade .56. It ain't all that useful as a shotgun with the double triggers, and I haven't cast any balls with the included mould. Seems like the more traditional I get the less use I have for the gun.
I think I'll get another Bobcat to rebarrel the underhammer, then sell the Renegade.
I think the inlines look dumb without a real bolt on the back.

StarMetal
09-23-2006, 10:46 AM
Remember that one neat 36 caliber rifle TC use to make, the Cougar I believe. My friend up in Ohio still has his. Wish they'd bring that back out.

Joe

Willbird
09-23-2006, 10:21 PM
Well heck my Omega has a swinging hammer, so I guess it is traditional

waksupi
09-23-2006, 10:49 PM
Doh! [smilie=b: Doh!:groner:doh! :killingpcConsarned varmints! :Fire:

WadePatton
09-30-2009, 01:09 AM
time to bump the thread and get the love flowing again.

traditional here. prb/flint and percussion/powder.

critters don't care, but a lot of times things are slow in the woods and a hand-crafted weapon gives one something else to ponder/enjoy.

i do modern too, but they're all "old-school" designs firing golden oldie cartridges: s/a revolvers, 1911's, turn-bolts, falling-blocks, that sort of thing.

"modern m/l" has no appeal to me. you shoot what you like, life is too short for me to worry 'bout that.

oldhickory
09-30-2009, 05:01 AM
O.k. Wade, I'll take you up on the bump. I shoot a Williams made .54 transitional flinter, beautiful rifle, swamped bbl, nice carved curly maple stock, and the most important thing of all, it goes boom when the trigger is pulled.

Other traditional rifles include a Windsor Enfield rifle-musket 1856, and a second model Fayetville rifle, 1862.

I would rather not shoot than shoot a "modern muzzle-loader".

beemer
09-30-2009, 08:56 AM
I have a long .40 cal. caplock that I built over 30 yrs. ago, with all the mistakes of the first one and a short .50 that I hunt with. Finished a .32 FL a few weeks ago that has a 42'' barrel and a cherry stock, I had the barrel and lock hid for over 20 yrs. That little flintlock is fun, wish I had started using them years ago. I have built several muzzleloaders over the years but these are my favorites.

I don't have a problem what someone else hunts with but I think they missed the boat and all the fun.

beemer

Potsy
09-30-2009, 09:57 AM
I've got a CVA St. Louis Hawken that's a fun gun and it's killed some stuff.
I've got a Knight BK-92 that's been my "go to" muzzleloader for years.
Old style guns are more fun. I was at a flintlock shoot the other day and had a ball (pun intended).
I'm working on a Lancaster .40, and I'm afraid it could lead into another time consuming and expensive hobby.

Archer
09-30-2009, 10:09 AM
I have 5 handguns, 7 rifles, & 1 shotgun,
all Black powder side locks flint or cap, except for the
handguns, which are either wheel guns, or single shot
of course. I have hunted with a Kentucky I built for
dang near 50 years now, and she still shoots fine.
Never had, or ever plan to get a inline. It don't bother me
if anyone else wants to shoot one, but I just don't need one.
Differen't strokes, for Differen't folks.

jim4065
09-30-2009, 10:29 AM
Have both and enjoy both , life is like a buffet, sometimes you got to sample everything!

Amen. :smile:

oldhickory
09-30-2009, 10:40 AM
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/8620/picture117l.th.jpg (http://img529.imageshack.us/i/picture117l.jpg/)

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/2419/picture116z.th.jpg (http://img219.imageshack.us/i/picture116z.jpg/)

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/2055/picture115q.th.jpg (http://img219.imageshack.us/i/picture115q.jpg/)

Here's a few pics of my flinter.

stubshaft
09-30-2009, 04:21 PM
That's a real purty rifle!

Ajax
09-30-2009, 05:02 PM
i use a 45 underhammer and a 50 cap lock i love them both. i tried to do the inline thing but couldnt get into it. i have shot deer at 100yrds with my 45 and they didnt seem to mind LOL

WadePatton
10-01-2009, 12:18 AM
...rest of my story (the interesting part). i'm building a tn/ky poor boy with a swamped 54 colerain (42") and a custom cast (flint) lock. have a cherry log to saw up and make a stock outta. steel furniture and sights to suit me (i don't dig buckhorns--not on the bbl anyway). this has become a 2-year project.

young traditionalists tend to think i'm going overbore. old traditionalists say-whatever works. the truth is i like to err on the large side rather than the small side (the elmer keith in me), need a hunting gun moreso than a target rifle, and will wind up with a hand-built rifle of domestic parts and wood from my ridge. it will look "old-timey" until one gets real close to it.

putzing around now with some loaner caplocks...just to get back into the feel of it.

guns are second to bikes for me now. so i can't go hog wild. the avatar is me brazing up a bike frame.

cheers

I Haines
10-05-2009, 12:11 AM
I love traditional firearms and all that goes with em. But I have no problem with others using inlines. A friend of mine is quite an accomplished hunter using an inline at up to 200 yards. The modern BP stuff just doesn't do it for me. IH

northmn
10-05-2009, 06:59 AM
As one who has studied and built traditional rifles, I guess you could call me a traditionalists. To me the word primitive does not decribe a firearm. The muzzle loaders are however "Historical" arms and the ideas and basis of the originators of the shooting matches was to experience history. To argue that an inline was pateneted in the 1800's does not cut it as they were not significant. On another thread an individual mentioned that he would like to see more videos about hunting and people hunting in more original camps. In Minnesota they kind of botched that as the ML season follows the centerfire season and it can get darn cold. Anyone who has hunted squirrels with a smallbore flintlock, or birds with a flintlock smoothbore will gete hooked. Deer hunting with a flintlock is its own challenge. If I want to use something more sure fire and less messy I use my 45-70. At least the ammunition for it is hisorical and not so hysterical. Jacketed pistol bullets in a ML are hysterical.

Northmn

willyboy
10-07-2009, 01:25 PM
I don't own anything but traditional.

mooman76
10-07-2009, 07:35 PM
I love the traditional one's the best myself and have about 12-15 guns but I did stumble a couple times. I picked up a inline to try to see what the fuss was about with the intention of hunting with it and a 32 cal. that is a side lock but has a plastic butt pad and only slightly resembles a traditional one in fact it is called a Deerhunter. Where it got that name is beyond me. I don't know of anyone that would hunt deer with it. My pride and joy though is an old original 32 cal squirrle gun from the 1860-1880 erra. Weighs a ton though but I've always wanted an original in shooting condition and it still shoots surprizingly well.

Rattus58
10-07-2009, 08:07 PM
yup.... 58's, 54's, and 40's. Two flintlocks in 54 caliber.

Aloha... :cool:

Underclocked
10-07-2009, 09:13 PM
So are those the ONLY muzzleloaders you own, Rattus? ;)

Rattus58
10-08-2009, 08:26 PM
So are those the ONLY muzzleloaders you own, Rattus? ;)

Ummmmmm well no actually, I have some 1-20 and 1-18 twist White Muzzleloaders in .451 and .410 as well as two straight rifled 12 ga. muzzleloader shotguns also by white. I'm not sure, but I think that the total comes out to two...410's, a super 91 in .451 and two thunderbolts in .451, one set up as a 91 with musket cap caps, the other is now set up as a primer, but I'm now using small rifle primers in a variflame carriage... :)

Since you axed.... :)

Underclocked
10-08-2009, 09:05 PM
So a guy can own several types and still have no shame? ;)

Lead Fred
10-08-2009, 11:12 PM
If its got a brand name, or dont throw sparks, it aint tradional :groner:



http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab211/stallhorn/Lock.jpg


:kidding::kidding::kidding:

Home made from some of the finest stuff on the planet, and a hunk of wood from the great state of Tenn.

jim4065
10-09-2009, 12:32 AM
That's a beauty Fred!

Hanshi
10-12-2009, 01:03 PM
While I personally detest inlines, I still like the idea of the separate muzzleloading seasons being open to them. These guys present no impediment to we traditional sidelock hunters. I'm for people spending money on our sport, supporting the economy & ml suppliers. If they don't know they're at a disadvantage, that's okay. Maybe they will eventually come over to the dark side and swell our ranks. I hunt all seasons with a flintlock and never feel at a disadvantage even with modern rifles.

Lead Fred
10-12-2009, 01:59 PM
They can take thier BBQ sparkers, plastic stocks, and artifical powder and shoot during the centerfire season.

Ajax
10-12-2009, 02:03 PM
i usually hunt with a 50 hawkens and a 45 underhammer i made from a kit.

Andy

oldhickory
10-12-2009, 02:08 PM
Here in Pa, they have a very generous flintlock-only season that begins after Christmas, and a "general" (doe only) muzzle-loader season in Oct. mainly for inlines, but any muzzle-loader can be used. I use this early season to hunt with my rifle-musket, I see no use in an in-line what so ever.

waksupi
10-12-2009, 02:50 PM
I believe there is a misconception by some, that the inlines are easier to shoot, so they go with them. From what I know of them, they are more difficult to get a load worked up for, are more difficult to clean, and are generally shot with a more corrosive powder than BP. Flintlocks are simplicity itself, once it's intricacies are learned.

StarMetal
10-12-2009, 04:10 PM
Ric,

Maybe those that feel the inlines are shoot is because most of them scope them. I bought an inline to specify hunt deer with in Ohio because they have a shotgun/muzzleloader only season. I don't like shotguns.

With that said, yes I had to work to find a load. Now I may shoot an inline, but I refuse to shoot sabots. I still use the original Maxi-Ball in mine.

I'm considering getting a flintlock and will have to mail order for the BP since that's all you can shoot in them. I've always wanted to try a flinter.

Joe

50 Caliber
10-12-2009, 04:12 PM
I have 5 smoke poles at this time. 2 of which are TC Pennsylvania Hunters. 1 is percussion, 1 is flint lock. Those two are by far my favorites, they shoot 2" all day with Goex 3FFF BP and .495" ball & .015" patch.
I also have a 32 caliber flintlock made by Miroku of Japan I got from Dixie GunWorks several years ago that WILL harvest squirrels with a load of 15 grains FFFBP and patched ball.

Hickory
10-12-2009, 04:23 PM
Here's the one that puts meat on the table for me.

http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/images/silos/5049.jpg

Underclocked
10-12-2009, 11:54 PM
I definitely prefer inlines because of the ease of scoping. My eyes just aren't worth a crap so far as using irons and I owe it to the animal to place a bullet as best I can. Started some 38 years ago with a T/C Hawken or three but feel absolutely no shame in using a good inline. There is an insane attachment that many seem to make with respect to the other fellow's choice of weapon. Hunt with what you like and can use effectively.

I never knock a guy's choice of a sidelock and really do not understand why some percentage of sidelock shooters feel those who use inlines are lesser beings or cheaters. I suppose it is simply some sort of nonsensical ego thing. I've yet to meet a fellow in all those years using any sort of muzzleloader that would make a good pimple on the [edit] of some of the historical figures many seem want to emulate.

50 Caliber
10-13-2009, 03:13 PM
I dont realy knock inlines, just dont like them, Inlines have been around alot longer than some may think.

piwo
10-13-2009, 07:32 PM
I shoot only traditional styles, and only "home made". It's just a choice, not an editorial. :drinks:

reivertom
10-13-2009, 10:09 PM
If it don't throw some sparks near your face, it just aint no fun. I think a rifle's muzzle should be at least chest high. It makes it harder for me to get stupid and lean over the muzzle when I'm loading it.;-)

frontier gander
10-14-2009, 01:15 AM
http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm53/thepowerbeltforum/Picture465.jpg

Dean D.
10-14-2009, 03:02 PM
I'm a traditionalist myself. I just got into shooting muzzleloading rifles but have owned and shot a 10ga percussion cap shotgun since about 1974 when it was given to me to use by an uncle. Here in Washington the ignition source must be exposed and 209 primers are not allowed. I am not sure how many inlines that eliminates but I'm sure quite a few.

So far I now have one Lyman GPR flintlock .54 for hunting and the hardware for an Isaac Haines Lancaster flintlock .54 from TOW. Still waiting on the wood for that kit :(

Gussy
10-14-2009, 08:53 PM
I've been hunting with a ml and only black powder since the very early 70's. Never had an inline and never will. I don't care if others use them and I think the "others" have helped get better ml seasons. I've shot several deer, a few elk, but so far, no bear.

Try bird hunting with them, it's a hoot. So far pheasents (many), quail, dove, ducks, geese, turkey, grouse, and huns. I use 20 SXS (dove, quail), 12SXS, 12 O\U (everything) and 10 SXS (geese, ducks, turkey).

I will be elk hunting this year as I got drawn for a meat hunt (cow elk).

cajun shooter
10-15-2009, 11:36 AM
I'm also one of the old timers who believes in the old style guns. I will not resort to name calling because of what others shoot but will say that if you gave me the top of the line in-line I would sell it. Just can't get in the mood of shooting with a wanna be gun. I started with BP in 1971 with a 36 and 44 caliber revolvers and learned why they threw the guns at the other guy when empty. I shoot a 50 Hawken in the swamps of Louisiana.

Hanshi
10-15-2009, 01:00 PM
I definitely prefer inlines because of the ease of scoping. My eyes just aren't worth a **** so far as using irons and I owe it to the animal to place a bullet as best I can. Started some 38 years ago with a T/C Hawken or three but feel absolutely no shame in using a good inline. There is an insane attachment that many seem to make with respect to the other fellow's choice of weapon. Hunt with what you like and can use effectively.

I never knock a guy's choice of a sidelock and really do not understand why some percentage of sidelock shooters feel those who use inlines are lesser beings or cheaters. I suppose it is simply some sort of nonsensical ego thing. I've yet to meet a fellow in all those years using any sort of muzzleloader that would make a good pimple on the [edit] of some of the historical figures many seem want to emulate.

While I dislike inlines I DO think a hunter should use what makes it possible for him/her to get out into the field. For this reason I've come to question muzzleloading seasons which exclude inlines. As much as I love flintlocks there are some who need more modern (not necessarily better) technology. For me, though I can still use iron sights fairly well, I'd take a different tact if I needed a scope. My idea would be a mid 19th century rifle with the period telescopic sight. Improves sighting but is still challenging. Even I carry a cell phone into the woods and not a HC one at that.