I know I know another 9mm leading thread

[MAGA]

So I need some help
My first casting session went well and i was using my new MP 147gr round nose flat base. I coated them 2x with hi tek black 1035 which passed both tests.
I did notice the lube groove was not coated
I loaded them over 2.8 and 3gr of titegroup 1.095 had to seat them that deep to pass the plunk test. And I used a lee FCD with about 1/2 turn of crimp.
I flared the cases good so I don't think coating was scraping off the base, but it could have possibly been scraping off the top of the lube groove, the groove seems kinda sharp but I'm not sure cause I'm new at this.
I sized both to .356 and .357
The last half of the barrel was leaded majorly in about 6 rounds in a Glock 43
I will pull some shortly and see if maybe the lee FCD was sizing them down
Alloy was water quenched COWW

Any other ideas?

Thanks!!

Pic of bullet
203565



Update:
Well I chamfered the cases and that took care of the case cutting into the boolit problem, but I made some dummy rounds just now just seating the boolits that deep and just taking the flare back out of the case not even really crimping it was squeezing the bases down to .352-.354
I guess that means the lee FCD isn't the problem
Dang that makes me kind of dissapointed i guess that means this problem is basically unavoidable?
Do I need to find a mold with a bevel base?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

when you crimped and sized them with the FCD, did you feel much friction during the sizing?

[fredj338]

Ditch the LFCD, & me, I would not shoot TG under any lead bullet, coated or not.
Yes I taper crimp in a separate step, enough to remove the flare. If you are flaring enough, a chamfer wont matter.

[MAGA]

Maybe just a tad more than normal I pulled about 15 and the bases were about .352 -.354 one was even .346 :neutral:
On the worst 3 you can see where the case actually cut into the bullet above the lube groove I think from seating?
Should I put a chamfer on the cases?
Also I guess that means the Lee FCD is to blame?
Do you guys still crimp?
203566

[runfiverun]

yep too small, gas cutting, and leading,,,, just like a regular bullet would.

try 358.
don't fcd smash them.

[runfiverun]

the base thing is unavoidable with a bullet that long, that's why most jacketed ones of that weight have a little bevel on the bottom.
the case is stronger there to deal with the higher pressure of the round.

I'd also be wary of titegroup and a heavy bullet, titegroup does not like small spaces.

[MAGA]

the base thing is unavoidable with a bullet that long, that's why most jacketed ones of that weight have a little bevel on the bottom.
the case is stronger there to deal with the higher pressure of the round.

I'd also be wary of titegroup and a heavy bullet, titegroup does not like small spaces.

The base thing, do you mean them being sized down just from seating?
Do you think that means unavoidable leading with this boolit?

[Dusty Bannister]

Lyman cast bullet handbook, 4th edition shows Titegroup with the 147 RF seated to 1.058" with a suggested start load of 2.5 gr and a max if 2.8 Gr. Your cast bullet being a round nosed bullet is probably longer, but who knows where the base of the bullet is in the case, and that puts you over the max load and perhaps over the max pressure.

Recheck your data source, and verify you are not sizing down the bullet in the case. Do you know what size bullet it takes to fill the barrel, or are you just guessing at it?

[MAGA]

Lyman cast bullet handbook, 4th edition shows Titegroup with the 147 RF seated to 1.058" with a suggested start load of 2.5 gr and a max if 2.8 Gr. Your cast bullet being a round nosed bullet is probably longer, but who knows where the base of the bullet is in the case, and that puts you over the max load and perhaps over the max pressure.


Recheck your data source, and verify you are not sizing down the bullet in the case. Do you know what size bullet it takes to fill the barrel, or are you just guessing at it?

Well I have loaded acme hi tek coated .356 145gr round nose with no leading in all my 9mm's including this one

[MAGA]

Well I chamfered the cases and that took care of the case cutting into the boolit problem, but I made some dummy rounds just now just seating the boolits that deep and just taking the flare back out of the case not even really crimping it was squeezing the bases down to .352-.354
I guess that means the lee FCD isn't the problem
Dang that makes me kind of dissapointed i guess that means this problem is basically unavoidable?
Do I need to find a mold with a bevel base?

[adam_mac84]

in my 9mm, I went to a 38 S7W powder through expander. Bottom portion of the expander is .355. I size to .357. Has allowed me to maintain .356 at boolit base. Leading is gone, but I would still like to maintain .357 through the whole boolit. I do have to use the FCD to get it to plunk properly after the larger sizer (goes out to .359/.360 at the end).

I also picked up a Lyman M die in 38AP and 38P. the AP is not as deep nor as fat as the 38P. I turned down the end of the 38P a bit so I wasn't sizing as deep into the 9mm case. Initially i used both sizers, but found that redundant. On my 4 hole turret, I now run decapping/resizing, then larger powder expander, seater, and FCD for a very light crim (0.379 OD). Seems to have helped my swaging.

[adam_mac84]

I also have found my problems only come from range scrap (softer). WCWW sized to 356 are very accurate, and hold their size against the case, even without larger expander... but I wanted to utilize my RS as I have more of it. At least I know I could add some Superhard to it to bring to WW hardness and be OK. (not helpful in your case as they were COWW)

[asmith80]

You could always get a taper crimp die instead of the FCD and see if that helps. I think they're only like $12

[tazman]

I hate to say this but I think the problem is unavoidable unless you can seat the boolit out to a longer OAL. You may need to have the chamber throated so that is possible. You would then only be limited by the length you magazine would accept.
Dougguy does this type of work and comes well recommended.

[Ggibson@saulsbury.com]

I agree with Tasman. The way to avoid staging (other than dispensing with the FCD) is to seat longer. I seat to 1.065 - 1.070 which run through my Glock mags just fine and allow me to seat bullets of 165 grain without bulging or staging.

[Ggibson@saulsbury.com]

That is to say staging not staging!

[P Flados]

There are options to avoid having the case sizing your boolit more than you want.

One possible solution that might work somewhat is to go harder with your lead.

As noted in post 11 below, the more positive method is to mix and matching parts & pieces from other dies (such as 38 special) to get an expander that opens your casings up to say 0.002" or so smaller than the boolit. This can "fix" the situation with respect to boolit diameter, but you may get case bulges that affect reliable chambering in a tight chamber.

The depth that you expand also makes a difference, but usually you do not have much choice for this unless you get a "custom" expander made up.

I am considering making myself some custom "expander only" plugs (no flare) that I can use as part of my search for non-leading 9mm loads. Discussion of my trials and tribulations are spread across several other 9mm leading threads including:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?336898-Glocks-lead
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?154418-9mm-leading

[MAGA]

You guys are great!
I will try a different expander die
From looking at the links it seems there are about 3 options
Lyman M die
Modified lee powder through expander with 38 s&w insert
Lee universal expander with a NOE expander plug
Not sure on the differences

[runfiverun]

sometimes you just have to improvise and measure.
I made an expander for my Dillon 550 from another larger expander I chucked it up in my drill and started in with the sandpaper and scrubby pads.
it ain't the greatest expander/flair tool but it gets the case open enough to take my 358 boolits.

[DerekP Houston]

I tried the 38sw expander in my 9mm and it did not help, a Lyman m die is on my wish list for christmas. Just my 2c. I had to switch to a 124gr rn mold to eliminate the leading in my 9mm and I powder coat those rounds. Good point about range scrap being too soft, I might have to invest in some superhard.

[popper]

9mm cases are extreme taper so deep seating reduces base size. Might try Amscor? Cases with the step in them.

[sigep1764]

Wheelweights should be plenty hard for 9mm. Im using range scrap right now in 9mm and am doing fine. The boolit fit is all wrong. Search for the thread using the 38s&w expander and just take the bell off the case. No need for a crimp, just remove the flare. And size your boolits 358. Both my glocks prefer 358.

[wlkjr]

I use an Accurate 147 grain bevel base truncated boolit and seat it to 1.125 using 2.9-3.0 grains of Titegroup, coated with Hi-Tek. I have shot thousands of these and load them on a Dillon 650. I have also used Bayou Bullets 147 truncated and also their 160 grain round nose. Shooting them out of a G19 and G26 mainly, but also have shot them out of a G43 and G17. I have not experienced any severe leading.
However, I have tried 2 different bullets in my G42 and I get some very light streaking after about 200 rounds. It does this in all 3 G42's we have. Not a bad problem but I'm still working to eliminate it totally.

[MAGA]

Wheelweights should be plenty hard for 9mm. Im using range scrap right now in 9mm and am doing fine. The boolit fit is all wrong. Search for the thread using the 38s&w expander and just take the bell off the case. No need for a crimp, just remove the flare. And size your boolits 358. Both my glocks prefer 358.

I just ordered the 38 s&w expander :mrgreen:

[DougGuy]

Have the barrel throated, then you can seat out as long as they will cycle through the mag. They feed better like this and also there is enough freebore in front of the case mouth that a goodly part of your boolit is into this section of the throat which is smaller in OD than the inside of the fired case so it holds the boolit square with the bore and concentric with the bore before it even hits the leade in to the rifling. It is a long gradual taper that really reduces or eliminates leading all together and will have that thing shooting lights out and running like a Singer sewing machine.

Base of the boolit is now up in the thinner part of the brass so it isn't sized down from seating deeper, I have always said that seating deeper is a poor workaround for not having enough throat or a throat of insufficient diameter. Either way you have to compromise something to get rounds to plunk and this just creates more problems when throating the barrel is what is needed.

[fredj338]

I agree with Tasman. The way to avoid staging (other than dispensing with the FCD) is to seat longer. I seat to 1.065 - 1.070 which run through my Glock mags just fine and allow me to seat bullets of 165 grain without bulging or staging.

That is really short. I seat my Saeco 147gr RN to 1.140-1/145" OAL. I shoot range scrap @ 900fps, no leading issues, HT or PC # 0.357" dia.

[tazman]

That is really short. I seat my Saeco 147gr RN to 1.140-1/145" OAL. I shoot range scrap @ 900fps, no leading issues, HT or PC # 0.357" dia.

I also seat that long or a little longer with my heavier boolits. The difference being the Beretta 92FS I shoot has a generous throat and will accept a long nosed boolit without problems.

[DougGuy]

No need for a crimp, just remove the flare.

Under the right circumstances this could be dangerous advice to follow.. The 9mm is a high pressure cartridge, and needs a good enough crimp to prevent boolit setback. A round loaded without crimp can easily allow the boolit to be pushed deeper into the case when it hits the feed ramp, which can be CATASTROPHIC because pressures can go though the roof. A 9mm loaded to 35,000psi can easily climb to 60,000psi with as little as .010" setback!

The best test I know of is the push test, take a DUMMY round, measure the COA, put the boolit against a solid surface and see if you can push it deeper into the case by pushing against the face of it. If it moves, this is very dangerous if it happens when the pistol cycles with live ammo. If it stays, there is enough crimp and case neck tension for it to function safely without risk of setback.


And size your boolits 358. Both my glocks prefer 358.

OP already states that he has to seat deeper so his loads will plunk. How is sizing larger going to help that unless/until he has his barrel throated?

[edp2k]

The problem the OP is having with this 147 gr bullet with a long (as compared to a 124 or 115 gr) straight "shank" (bullet section below the ogive)
is why many people have abandoned or avoided 147 gr bullets and gone with 124 gr or 115 gr bullets,
especially on guns with little or no free bore (i.e. they have a shallow throat), like a CZ.

The shorter 124 or 115 gr bullets have a shorter straight shank section which allows them to be seated out longer
and thus avoid or mitigate the situation where the thicker case walls in the lower part of the case swage down the bullet or end up with an over spec case bulge.

Also, since different brands of brass have different wall thicknesses (and probably even within the same brand across time and mfg plants),
it is likely that brand X brass will not end up with a case bulge/swaged bullet when bullet A is seated to OAL B, but brand Y brass will :(

Thus, in order to truly eliminate this problem you may have to also sort brass by head stamp, which many people want to avoid when loading pistol brass.

Throating a nitrided barrel, like a Glock, may also cut into and expose the softer non-nitrided steel, which would erode faster than nitrided steel.
Of course the depends on the depth of the nitriding penetration and how deep the cut.
I don't know how you could non-destructively determine the former :)
I also don't know for sure that the results of a nitriding penetration test on barrel serial # X (make at time Y)
would be the same for barrel serial # A, made at time B, especially since Glock has changed nitriding technology over time.

For these reasons many people solve the problem by going to a 124 or 115 gr bullet and/or one with a with a small reduced diameter "step"
in the area immediately forward of the case mouth, so that the bullet can be seated with a bit longer OAL and not have any interference with the throat/lead/rifling.

MP, NOE, and Accurate have some designs like this, some even in 147 or 135 gr, and a TC (Truncated Cone) design seated so that no straight section
is forward of the case mouth also solves the problem.

[MaryB]

There is rarely a need to use a super hard alloy in 9mm. In fact I nix to Lyman #2 for everything including .223 rifle. Slug your barrel, get the proper sizer, use the larger expander, and go to a lighter shorter boolit. I use the Lee 124TC for 9mm and it is very accurate. Barrel in my Hipoint is a sewer at .359 so I can shoot them as cast.

[sigep1764]

Dougguy, if you expand the brass wide enough and deep enough you can seat a 358 boolit where you need it. I seat my elco boolit to 1.125 (where OP seats his) and I get no swaging of boolits. This is because I expand my brass to 358 using an Expander modeled after the 38s&w expander turned by Lathesmith to work in my SDB. With a boolit as long as a 147 typically is, there is enough bearing surface to adequately grip the brass to not move. Now, I will give you "YMMV", but I've cycled the same dummy round enough times to know theres no setback for me. And yes, the Push Test is equally telling. And no, I have nothing against your work. If you look at my previous posts, I have even referred to your services more than once. I happen to think in this instance there is more than one way to skin the cat.

[meotai]

the Lee 38s&w powder through expander, expands 0.25 deep. So you can seat a flat base boolit 0.25 deep into the case before it start swaging.

[9.3X62AL]

The 9mm Parabellum has been running reliably for 115 years using 115-125 grain bullets. The original design spec was for 123-125 grain bullets, usually RN and occasionally truncated cone. Making an OEM 9mm run safely and reliably with heavy-for-application bullets requires some abstract gymnastics that I am utterly uninterested in engaging in. The Lee 120 grain TC bullet is about perfect for the application--seat it with .020" of front drive band exposed, and it will plunk into every chamber of every 9mm I have ever tried them in. Size to .357" or more--the ONLY 9mm barrels I have ever seen with .355" specs in throats or grooves were 1 Springfield Armory Loaded 1911A1 variant, and aftermarket barrels intended for cast bullets like Storm Lake, Bar-Sto, and Lone Wolf. We have five 9mm pistols at my house, and all have throats between .356" and .357". Same story with about a dozen 9mms I have sent down the road--they run fat. Accomodate their dimensional needs, and they will run wonderfully--fail to do so or create undersizing in some manner, and prepare to mine your lead.

[tazman]

Dougguy, if you expand the brass wide enough and deep enough you can seat a 358 boolit where you need it. I seat my elco boolit to 1.125 (where OP seats his) and I get no swaging of boolits. This is because I expand my brass to 358 using an Expander modeled after the 38s&w expander turned by Lathesmith to work in my SDB. With a boolit as long as a 147 typically is, there is enough bearing surface to adequately grip the brass to not move. Now, I will give you "YMMV", but I've cycled the same dummy round enough times to know theres no setback for me. And yes, the Push Test is equally telling. And no, I have nothing against your work. If you look at my previous posts, I have even referred to your services more than once. I happen to think in this instance there is more than one way to skin the cat.

That ELCO boolit is a special case. It was designed specifically to be seated long with nose dimensions that make it so it doesn't interfere with the rifling(similar to a boolit with a stepped nose). No more of the boolit is actually inside the case than with a 120 grain TC style boolit.
The same situation applies to the NOE 358-135-FN.
That is why these boolits work so well for most people.

[DougGuy]

Dougguy, if you expand the brass wide enough and deep enough you can seat a 358 boolit where you need it. I seat my elco boolit to 1.125 (where OP seats his) and I get no swaging of boolits. This is because I expand my brass to 358 using an Expander modeled after the 38s&w expander turned by Lathesmith to work in my SDB. With a boolit as long as a 147 typically is, there is enough bearing surface to adequately grip the brass to not move. Now, I will give you "YMMV", but I've cycled the same dummy round enough times to know theres no setback for me. And yes, the Push Test is equally telling. And no, I have nothing against your work. If you look at my previous posts, I have even referred to your services more than once. I happen to think in this instance there is more than one way to skin the cat.

Like I said, "Under the right circumstances.." The OP *or* someone coming in from a Google search, or new to reloading, may not have the same setup or boolit or expander plug, and they may not have enough neck tension to prevent setback, *or* they may not have ever heard of setback or know what it is or how dangerous it is. Thus you can see my strongly worded caution is in order. I was not necessarily criticizing your integrity or your experience, and certainly not attacking your character, merely throwing up a caution where one is needed.

Your barrel obviously likes the .358" which saves you the cost of having to fix it (and the aggravation of having to load around the throat size) but the OP's barrel seems to have an interference with his existing boolits if seated out longer so I would think that after throating the barrel, he could use a .358" successfully.

In response to the post by edp2k,


Throating a nitrided barrel, like a Glock, may also cut into and expose the softer non-nitrided steel, which would erode faster than nitrided steel.
Of course the depends on the depth of the nitriding penetration and how deep the cut.
I don't know how you could non-destructively determine the former :)
I also don't know for sure that the results of a nitriding penetration test on barrel serial # X (make at time Y)
would be the same for barrel serial # A, made at time B, especially since Glock has changed nitriding technology over time.

Glock barrels more often than not are through hardened, there is no soft center to speak of. True their process may have changed but the time those barrels spend in a 1500F salt bath is what determines how deep in the metal that hardening will go. I have throated a bunch of hardened barrels with specially made carbide throating reamers and also crowned them with carbide cutters and they pretty much don't "give" once the hardened layer is broke through. Others you can notice it immediately after breaking the surface with the reamer, you actually have shavings curled from the steel. Glocks all you get out of the barrel is dust that looks like when you turn a brake rotor on a lathe.

[lotech]

-Use the largest diameter bullet that will chamber without difficulty. This is often, .358"; some guns may require .357" or .359".
-Alloy around 12-15 BHN should be fine.
-Having never seen any drawback with conventional lubing methods, I stick with and recommend that process.
-If you have an accurate pistol and want to take full advantage of its accuracy, don't use mixed brass. Case wall thickness and inside taper can vary and affect bullet size, particularly long, heavy ones. I've never had a problem in this regard using Winchester 9mm brass, but my brass is far from new.
-Always seat bullets to max. OAL for magazine if possible, as long as cartridges will chamber fine.
-Crimp using as light a taper crimp as possible, i.e., just enough to prevent setback under recoil. I won't get into the Lee FCD debate ever again, so use one if you wish but shoot enough groups with cartridges crimped that way against those crimped lightly with a taper crimp die before making a decision as to which method provides best accuracy, at least for your purpose.
-If you get any leading or poor accuracy after doing everything right, try a different powder. Titegroup should be fine, but Bullseye and perhaps others are worth trying.

[sigep1764]

This is true, the Elco boolit is a different animal. Im afraid the buzz I acquired before during and after the concert SWMBO and I attended last night got the better of me. I truly apologize for my tone in the previous posts. Rereading it, it comes off rude. Not my true intentions.

[Cherokee]

Get the Lyman 38AP expander, it works fine for me and will go deeper into the case, causing a bulge...but the bulge doesn't stop my XDM's or Briley barreled 1911 from flawless function.

[Greg S]

Cherokee, note for others that RCBS packages the same expander in 9mm, 9x21, 9x23 and 38 super. I was looking at this the other day looking for a work around and figured I look up expanders in their parts book to see which ones were different. RCBS also lists the 38 Special, 38 S&W and 357 Mag as the same expander. The expander in the Cowboy 3 die set in 38/357 designed for loading lead bullets measures .356 but is too long to the mouth flare so I plan to use a standard 9mm expander to flare the mouth and then run the cowboy sizer for loading 147s until i find or adapt another expander die.

[sigep1764]

I can't believe none of us have mentioned Lathesmith! He made my expander for me for my SDB and does great work for reasonable cost. If you get sick, pm him.