Did I overdue a good thing?

[Johnw...ski]

After determining that my lead alloy had little or no antimony I acquired some foundry type which is high in antimony. A mix of 51 lbs of range lead which measures between 10.0 and 11.0 BHN and 10 lbs of foundry type gave me boolits that were casting slightly light 241 gr. instead of 245 gr. and measuring 14.4 BHN as cast. Age hardening after 2 weeks was 16.6 BHN and after 4 weeks it is 17.9 BHN.

Do you guys think they are getting too hard?
How hard will they ultimately get?

This alloy is for a .35 Whelen using Saeco #352 mold and being shot at around 2000 FPS.

Thanks,

John

[DLCTEX]

Depends on what you want to shoot with them. Is this as cast or did you water drop or heat treat them? 17.9 is not really too hard unless you are looking for expansion as a hunting boolit, but they can expand some even at that hardness. The thing you want to watch is that adding the type doesn't result in a smaller dia. boolit that causes gas cutting. Did you check the diameter? I don't think they will harden much more. DALE

[Boerrancher]

I will most likely get persecuted and verbally abused for saying this, but... I don't believe that harder is always better. Hard boolits have their place don't get me wrong, but I try and cast just hard enough for the speeds I want to push the boolit. When I first started casting, I use to think harder was better, and tried to get everything as hard as I could. When my accuracy started falling apart I went back to the advice of my older friend who taught me how to cast. He told me, "all you need is it to be hard/tough enough that it doesn't jump the riflings."

I start out now with this basic philosophy, and that is anything up to 1200 fps is pure lead, and I start adding tin and antimony mostly by adding WW or Lino to the mix. I noticed you are wanting to shoot around 2000 fps. You should be able to get close to that with straight WW.
To answer your question, I would think they are a bit too hard, but that is Just my 2 cents worth.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[Naphtali]

Depends on what you want to shoot with them. Is this as cast or did you water drop or heat treat them? 17.9 is not really too hard unless you are looking for expansion as a hunting boolit, but they can expand some even at that hardness. The thing you want to watch is that adding the type doesn't result in a smaller dia. boolit that causes gas cutting. Did you check the diameter? I don't think they will harden much more. DALEDale:

Please expand on relationship among hardness, velocity, and reliable, predictable expansion with cast bullets. I want to identify casting alloy's chemistry to achieve .458-.460-inch bullets, 400-450 grains, with gas check.

I've archived threads on differential heat treating, two-alloy casting, and hollow pointing. These are complex or have twitchy predictability. Were there a safe-to-shoot cast bullet handload for 45-70 modern lever actions that will expand reliably but not severely, you have solved an expensive problem for me.

[Just Duke]

Dale:

Please expand on relationship among hardness, velocity, and reliable, predictable expansion with cast bullets. I want to identify casting alloy's chemistry to achieve .458-.460-inch bullets, 400-450 grains, with gas check.

I've archived threads on differential heat treating, two-alloy casting, and hollow pointing. These are complex or have twitchy predictability. Were there a safe-to-shoot cast bullet handload for 45-70 modern lever actions that will expand reliably but not severely, you have solved an expensive problem for me.

45-70's are already pre-expanded Naph. Big Hole on the other side.

[Bass Ackward]

How strong is 17 vs 15? Only one that can answer that is Professor Gun. Sometimes his verdict is going to be lots. And sometimes it will be nothing as a major move is required to show a difference.

How do you know? Easier way than changing mixes, is to change lube or to change the amount of lube.

This is the key: " Best accuracy with lead generally occurs at the point just before leading or stripping begins. "

If lube change or reducing the amount of lube makes a great difference in accuracy, then you are right on the cusp for the conditions (lube, hardness, bullet fit, pressure, temperature) you are subjecting it to. If it doesn't make much of a difference to none, then most likely you can soften up some more, go on up with a slower powder, or shoot in a warmer climate.

For hunting I stay close as I want as soft as possible. For target, I could care less how much over I am. :grin:

This accuracy point identifies what you shoot most by the response you get.

1. Rifleman tend to believe in RPMs.
2. Handgunners tend to call it matching their bullet to their twist rate.

But if you harden or soften successfully without gas cutting, stripping or leading, this accuracy point will move up or down as you change hardness or lube powder etc "IF" your bullet fit is good enough to allow it. One thing that is being driven home to me right now, is that the poorer the bullet fit, the harder you need to be and the lower the over all ceiling you will have.

[cbrick]

Dale, higher antimony percentage will increase final bullet diameter due to the larger crystalline structure, not decrease it.


I will most likely get persecuted and verbally abused for saying this, but... I don't believe that harder is always better. Hard boolits have their place don't get me wrong, but I try and cast just hard enough for the speeds I want to push the boolit. To answer your question, I would think they are a bit too hard, but that is Just my 2 cents worth. Best wishes from the Boer Ranch, Joe

Persecuted and verbally abused . . . Hhmmm ok Joe, here goes, you are absolutely correct. Too hard is responsible for more leading and accuracy problems than is being too soft.

Depending on Johnw...ski's range and the type of shooting done there his range scrap could well have 3-5% antimony, a Smallbore range would have little to none. By using range scrap and cutting it 50/50 with foundry type (23% antimony) he has basically made linotype (about 11-14% antimony depending on the range scrap) that's probably high in the percentage of tin. This would be a hard bullet but more importantly it would be a very brittle bullet. If the intended target is steel it would be a poor choice of alloys, as a hunting bullet it's still a much higher antimony percentage than I would select.

Johnw...ski, you didn't mention how well your range scrap was working for you before you added the foundry type. If it ain't broke don't fix it. For steel targets (most of my shooting) I don't like anything over 3-4% antimony or in other words, wheel weights. A good alloy if you must add the foundry type would be in the range of 1 pound foundry type to 5 or 6 pounds range scrap and its very possible to use even less than that.

Don't forget that foundry type is also 15% tin. I suggest making your valuable foundry type last a lot longer by using its tin and antimony sparingly.

Hope this helps,

Rick

[EDK]

I acquired about 200 pounds of foundry type years ago...and unfortunately sold it, not knowing how to deal with it. It was off the chart on my SAECO hardness tester and cast about .004 larger in my LYMAN 429244 mould...ran about .438 IIRC. Trying to size them through the STAR looked like a good way to wreck the machine! I got $.50 a pound for the remainder...wheel weights were half that price.

:Fire::cbpour::redneck:

[45 2.1]

Too hard is responsible for more leading and accuracy problems than is being too soft.

Ain't that the truth. Too hard usually means too brittle and less accurate. Tough ductile alloys are the answer to many things.

[Johnw...ski]

Thank you, everyone. for all the answers.

Rick,

The range lead is from the pistol house at my club, I tried water dropping it as well as some other mixes I had with zero results as to increasing hardness, that is why I felt that I had little or no antimony in my inventory. I alloyed the foundry type until I got a mix that produced a boolit at 14.4 BHN close to what I had been buying. I guess I can cut the ratio down some more, I was just curious as to how long these boolits would continue to age harden.

John


Dale, higher antimony percentage will increase final bullet diameter due to the larger crystalline structure, not decrease it.



Persecuted and verbally abused . . . Hhmmm ok Joe, here goes, you are absolutely correct. Too hard is responsible for more leading and accuracy problems than is being too soft.

Depending on Johnw...ski's range and the type of shooting done there his range scrap could well have 3-5% antimony, a Smallbore range would have little to none. By using range scrap and cutting it 50/50 with foundry type (23% antimony) he has basically made linotype (about 11-14% antimony depending on the range scrap) that's probably high in the percentage of tin. This would be a hard bullet but more importantly it would be a very brittle bullet. If the intended target is steel it would be a poor choice of alloys, as a hunting bullet it's still a much higher antimony percentage than I would select.

Johnw...ski, you didn't mention how well your range scrap was working for you before you added the foundry type. If it ain't broke don't fix it. For steel targets (most of my shooting) I don't like anything over 3-4% antimony or in other words, wheel weights. A good alloy if you must add the foundry type would be in the range of 1 pound foundry type to 5 or 6 pounds range scrap and its very possible to use even less than that.

Don't forget that foundry type is also 15% tin. I suggest making your valuable foundry type last a lot longer by using its tin and antimony sparingly.

Hope this helps,

Rick

[cbrick]

Thank you, everyone. for all the answers. I guess I can cut the ratio down some more, I was just curious as to how long these boolits would continue to age harden. John

Guess that question hasn't been answered. After 4 weeks it's doubtful they will get any harder and if they do it will be very slight. The percentage of tin will limit the amount of strengthening (hardening) and also shorten the time for age softening.

How well did the alloy (range scrap) work BEFORE you added the foundry type?

Rick

[45 2.1]

I was just curious as to how long these boolits would continue to age harden. John

Thats a loaded question.................. It really depends on your alloy and how you cast them. Storage conditions have an impact also. Typical WW alloy will get harder up to a point. At 8 months, it is as hard as its practically gonna get, but it will get slightly harder up to two years which is as long as ran the batch. It will also grow in diameter at times also. You never know what your going to get until you try it.

[Larry Gibson]

JohnW...ski

If the harder alloyed bullets are a good fit to the throat/bore and your using a good lube then those bullets should do quite nicely at 2000 fps from your Whelen. Leading should not be a factor at that velocity with a good lube such as any of the 50/50 alox/beeswax lubes or some of the other lubes such as Carnauba Red or LBT. Since you have the alloy and have already cast the bullets don't second guess or over think the situation. As Bass said, let the gun (rifle) tell you. While those bullets are harder than I use for hunting they will do well for target and practice shooting. I use harder bullets for target shooting and HV (HV is those loads that approach J bullet velocity) loads. Many get the impression that all factors with cast bullet loads must be just right and aligned with the stars, the moon and the planets before accuracy or no leading occur. That just isn't so. Shooting cast bullets accurately is not all that difficult. My advise is to try them.

Larry Gibson

[Johnw...ski]

Hi Larry,

By all means I intend to shoot them and I expect they will meet my requirements since they only have to penetrate paper.

It may be some time before I get to work with the Whelen again because I have a few other rifles I would like to work up loads for. I was a little surprised at how much harder the boolits got age hardening and was wondering how long this would go on.

John


JohnW...ski

If the harder alloyed bullets are a good fit to the throat/bore and your using a good lube then those bullets should do quite nicely at 2000 fps from your Whelen. Leading should not be a factor at that velocity with a good lube such as any of the 50/50 alox/beeswax lubes or some of the other lubes such as Carnauba Red or LBT. Since you have the alloy and have already cast the bullets don't second guess or over think the situation. As Bass said, let the gun (rifle) tell you. While those bullets are harder than I use for hunting they will do well for target and practice shooting. I use harder bullets for target shooting and HV (HV is those loads that approach J bullet velocity) loads. Many get the impression that all factors with cast bullet loads must be just right and aligned with the stars, the moon and the planets before accuracy or no leading occur. That just isn't so. Shooting cast bullets accurately is not all that difficult. My advise is to try them.

Larry Gibson

[runfiverun]

they are probably there. any more will be pretty negligable, in the long run.
the 18 bhn should be fine for what you wanna do.