Dutch Shultz Patch - ?? on water soluble oil

[bedbugbilly]

I'm not posting this to get into a debate on what the best patch lube is so let's not go there please.

I am looking for an answer of what water soluble oil is the best now for doing the Dutch Shultz patching? i.e. soaking patch material and then letting it dry.

I've used this type of patching for many years and the last time I made patching material up was probably five years ago when I made a large supply of it. I'm getting ready to make a supply of it again as I'm getting low.

I use pillow ticking as well as thinner cotton material for patching. At the time that Dutch cam out with this, my brother and i tried it and it worked very well for both of us. At the time (probably twenty years ago) we got a container of water soluble oil form the local NAPA dealer. The last time I made patching, I used it up but kept the container to get another one. Well . . . in our move to a new place this past June, the empty container evidently got tossed by mistake and I no longer have the NAPA name or number of the water soluble oil. So I have been doing searches and have run across remarks of the newer water soluble oil having "polymer additives".

So what are those who use this method using for the water soluble oil now to do this type of lubing of the patching (which is then air dried)? Ballistol? If so, what is the best source for it - never used it so is it available in hardware store or ?

I usually cut strips of the material (after washing well to remove the "sizing"), soak and hang out to dry. (Normally I muzzle cut). This time, I'll make more strips but then also want to soak a piece of the material and then cut "pre cut" patches out of it using my drill press and patch cutting cutters I've made.

I did call the local NAPA store but it has changed hands and the young fellow I talked with didn't have much information that would help as far as trying to get the same thing we bought years ago. The "old timers" who could answer questions and who had the experience/knowledge have all retired.

Thanks

[country gent]

There are several water soluable oils available. Some are lubricating for pumps and such that work in an enclosed system. One is for your vehicles water pump, you pour it in the radiator and it lubes the pumps bearings and impellor. Some also improve the flow of the water and increase the ability to carry heat to the radiators. Another is a machining oil that's dissolved in water to improve tool life and carry chips and heat away. The old ones were a black oil that when mixed with water turned a milky white. These were the ones used to make "moose Milk" and patch lubes. The newer forms of this style do have other additives in them that may become an issue. Napas water Soluable oil is probably a lubricating type for radiators and water pumps. Check some of the smaller machine shops for the older water Sol they may have some on hand and sell you the small amount you will need. At 20-1 a 5 ounce container makes over 100 ounces of lube

[rodwha]

Hmmm... My understanding is that Moose Milk is made with Ballistol.

And Ballistol, I thought, is what Dutch used and mentioned.

I've yet to try Ballistol as a patch lube but I've certainly read of a few people who love it, and I use it for various other BP uses figured I'd have to give it a try once I get back to a range and begin working on loads as prior I was merely breaking it in and having fun using grape seed oil as it's all SWMBO would allow me to use out of the pantry having given me a lot of fuss and scolding when she saw me with the olive oil in hand.

I ordered my aerosol can from Dixie Gun Works but don't recall when I bought the regular oil from. Online though as it's just not common. Were I to guess I'd say Amazon.

[waksupi]

Dutch recommended Ballistol, as the formula for the NAPA stuff apparently changed. I imagine MSC would have a suitable oil. Ballistol is available at sporting goods stores in this area.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

Moose Milk: Have your typical Shot Glass ready!
1 shot glass of water soluble oil "Ballistol"
1 shot glass of Pinesol
2 shots hydrogen peroxide - 3% solution
20 shots of water
When weather turns very cold to the freezing point, you can add 2 shots of Alcohol to your mix to prevent it from freezing.

---

Castor Oil 4 oz.

Murphy's Oil Soap 1 oz.

Witch Hazel 4 oz.

Isopropyl Alcohol (91%) 8 oz.

Water (non-chlorinated) 16 oz

[country gent]

Ballistol is one of the earlier water soluble oils. German chemistry they used it for cleaning, restoration work, preserving leather, and production machining. Its a great oil for all of this smell is different and some really don't care for it.

[10 ga]

For my prelubed patching material it's a pretty simple formula = equal parts beeswax and deer tallow. Make a roll of patch material, slowly melt lube in microwave and stir to mix, set roll of material in bowl of melted and very viscous lube. Let it sit a bit then take out of bowl and place on wax paper to cool. repeat until all your rolls of material lubed. Simple, easy and nice stiff patches with plenty lube and they cut easily with scissors or a sharp knife. My way, others will differ. 10

PS: following the stripes on the pillow ticking make cutting long even strips of patching material easy.

[izzyjoe]

I've tried different patch lubes, some worked good, others just plain sucked! Olive oil soaked patches worked well, but gojo hand cleaner didn't work. 70/30 water, ballistol seemed to work the best using Ducth's method. I kept cutting it with water till it didn't work so well, and then backed up.

[rfd]

jim,

as already posted, dutch specified ballistol water soluble oil. also and fwiw, and besides the dry lube patching he advocates, dutch's load is all about really tight patched large diameter balls in the percussion guns he was shooting before he had to stop due to vision issues. you may find, as others have, that his dry lube system requires rigorous fouling control between shots. basically, dutch's treatise was all about bench shooting percussion rifles.

rob.

[bedbugbilly]

Thaks all for the info.

country gent - time flies, especially when you get older and the more I got to thinking about it, it has probably been 20 + years since we bought that water soluble oil from NAPA.Your reference to black oil is about right and when we mixed it up, it did turn the milky white sort of color.

I have been shooting BP for close to 55 years now and over that time, I have tried just about every lube you could think of. I'm very familiar with the "moose milk" but Dutch's process is to soak the patching and then air dry it. When you're done, the patch has a lubricating quality to it but no muss or fuss of grease,, tallow or whatever. I normally cut my strips 36" in length and just die to the strap of my hunting pouch and cut when loading.

When I first read Dutch Shultz's information, I sort of poo poo'd it but my brother and I decided to give it a try. I ate crow instantly. It worked well or of our smoothbore trade guns as well as rifles - both small bore and large boe. Since then, that's all I use. While I still prefer to spit patch between shots, I can fire repeated times without a wipe of the bore in between if necessary. Our groups tightened up with all of our guns.

We are going in to the city tomorrow so I'll try and find a can of Bllistol to ry. Thanks for the information - greatly appreciated!

Jim

[mozeppa]

hamicut 800 is water soluable... looks like milk.

[waksupi]

Moose Milk: Have your typical Shot Glass ready!
1 shot glass of water soluble oil "Ballistol"
1 shot glass of Pinesol
2 shots hydrogen peroxide - 3% solution
20 shots of water
When weather turns very cold to the freezing point, you can add 2 shots of Alcohol to your mix to prevent it from freezing.

---

Castor Oil 4 oz.

Murphy's Oil Soap 1 oz.

Witch Hazel 4 oz.

Isopropyl Alcohol (91%) 8 oz.

Water (non-chlorinated) 16 oz

Lost me at the hydrogen peroxide. I experimented on barrel sections, highly corrosive.

It would work well to brown a barrel.

Let the argument begin.

[koger]

I started using it in the early 90's, guy was selling Dutch's info packet with a bottle of oil mixed up at Friendship. He turned me on to Mobil Met, water soluble cutting oil, for metal working! I came home, ordered a gallon from my local machine shop, been hooked ever since. I mix it 1-4, oil to water, in a bucket, soak as much patch material as I can, wring it out and pour the remaining into a jug of some kind for future use. I then lay the patch material out on a flat concrete surface, with some rocks to hold it down, till dry, then either process or fold up, in a zip lock bag, good to go!!

[rfd]

Lost me at the hydrogen peroxide. I experimented on barrel sections, highly corrosive.

It would work well to brown a barrel.

Let the argument begin.

i totally agree, ditch the H2O2, it's corrosive and not needed. in fact, ditch EVERYTHING other than 1 part water soluble oil and 6 parts of distilled water. that's all any of us would ever need to clean out any gun, or maintain fouling control.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

boys,thats right from dutches book.

[rfd]

i have dutch's "e-book" ... there are more than a few things in it that i don't accept as "right" when it comes to trad muzzleloaders. this is not at all to say dutch is "wrong". it's all a matter of perspective and what floats yer boat best.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

same, I found it to be a good read, but nothing that I follow by these days. It can be very helpful to someone to zero knowledge and needs some guidance.

[rfd]

no, it's about learning, then making a choice. you learn about loading parameters, do yer testings, figure out what's best for you. dry lube patching isn't for everyone, same as tight patch loads. dutch's methods work well off the bench, not so much out of the pouch.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

Tight patches are my #1 find to best accuracy. A light amount of lube that keeps the patch light and fluffy works best for me than one slathered in lube that turns hard and waxy. Consistent seating pressure however I think folks have the hardest time with.

[rfd]

absolutely true. i do believe that tightly patched balls, using thick patching that's well pre-lubed (greased through the cotton or linen fibers), and requires both a starter and mallet, along with proper shot-to-shot fouling control, will offer the better consistent accuracy at any distance.

all of that is not my cup of tea and difficult if not impossible for me to administer and control during a 10 to 30 shot woods walk, with mandatory out-of-pouch style of shooting.

none of this is right or wrong, good or bad. it's about personal preferences for a task at hand.

[John Boy]

Bedbug, you might want to consider using Lehigh Valley Lube and Cleaner on your patches ... https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/156/1/LUBE-LEHIGH
203521

[bedbugbilly]

I certainly agree that there are many ways to do it and everybody has what works best for them.

I haven't "abandoned" using other patch lubes. For years, I've had excellent luck with a pound of non salt crisco melted together with one real beeswax toilet ring. I've used it in the bases of my rifled musket minie balls (yea, I never lube the rings and have successfully fired tens of thousands of the that way) and also used it in my C & B revolvers and worked it into my patching for both rifle and smoothbore. Others have their own formulas that work for them and that's great.

When Dutch first started selling his info, both my brother and i were having problems with our 20 gauge trade guns (smoothbore). His method of dry lubed patches turned out to work well out of both of our trade guns. I also had a 36 caliber Virginia style flintlock that I had just finished that I was having some issues with - if I remember correctly, I used a Green Moutain barrel on that one. I tried a number of different lubes but when I tried the dry lube patching, it really tightened the groups up. Unfortunately, I had a guy offer me a price I couldn't resist on the rifle and I sold it before I had an opportunity to pursue the dry lube patching in it any further.

I agree with rfd - it depends on your view of "traditional" as well and *** to how you are shooting. Regardless of if I'm shooting at a bench or out of the pouch. I like my patched balls to go down the bore with fair ease - and that involves not only working with patch lubes but patch/ball fit that does the trick. On RB barrels, I usually like to do a fouling shot and then run a patch down the barrel between shots. BUT - that isn't always practical when you are doing a timed event or a woods walk, etc. So, you do what works best for you and what fits your desires as far as being "traditional", etc. Nothing wrong with that at all.

Some like their patched balls to be tight, some like 'em loose and some are OCD and weight every ball and charge - and that's fine - to each their own. My grandfather had a 45 caliber plains style rifle that he bought off of a fellow who came to Michigan around 1832. (My grandfather was born in 1867). I have heard my
Dad tell how good a shooter he was with it, once hitting a dog who was killing his sheep and that dog was close to 125 yards away - I know as I know where it took place and I paced it off one time. He cast his balls in the typical "bag mold" and trimmed the spurs with the handle cutter. I doubt that any of them weighted the same. The rifle had square patches lubed with what looked like sheep tallow in the patch cap box on the stock.

I've read Dutch Shutlz's material and I certainly don't agree with all of it. In the beginning, I poo poked the water soluble patching as well - but I found it worked for what I was shooting. It's like anything else - you read it, you study it and you take away things that "might" work for you - then you try 'em and if they don't - nothing ventured nothing gained.

I smiled when I read reference to a "mallet". Years ago - many years ago - there was a guy who came to Friendship and usually did a lot of shooting on the offhand range. He was the poster child for OCD. He was a nice guy and I got to talking with him one day and he "lectured me" not he importance of keeping everything the same - exact powder grain weights, exact ball weights, same caps, same powder, etc. He had a nice half stock percussion rifle and quite the fancy shooting box as well. One thing he stressed was the uniformity of the ball to insure the same "flight". O.K. . . . . if it works for you then more power to you I thought. I watched him loads many many times. He used a drop tube down the bore, carefully dumped his powder charges in - swabbed between shots exactly the same each time, etc. When loading though, he defined the "tight patch/ball" concept. He always used a pre-cut patch and carefully set his ball on top, sprue up. Then, he' pull out his pretty ebony mallet and whack it to start it in the bore - followed by a short starter which he hammered on with the mallet, then a longer short starter, then the ramrod with a wide turned top that his mallet would hammer on. I always wondered what that soft lead ball looked ike when it got to the breech and was seated on the charge - it couldn[t have been round. He was an "O.K." shooter but didn't set any records but he was "consistent" in his style.

My point is to keep an open mind and not be afraid to try new things - if nothing more than to say you've tried it. Do what is within your parameters and don't get hung up on what someone else says " is the way to do it". Dutch Shultz offers some interesting things to read and think about but let's face it, he's sold a lot of his information packets over the years. Some may work for you and some may not. If it's one thing I've learned in 55 years of shooting BP, it's that "nobody is an expert". Don't get so hung up on what the "experts" say as every gun is different and lies different things - and having fun while shooting front stuffers or any other firearm is what it's all about.

Thanks to everyone for taking the time to post - a lot of interesting information and some products I wasn't aware of!

[rfd]

fwiw, what i favor these dayze is a "loose" easy load (no short starter, "thumb" seating) that allows decent accuracy with no fouling control between shots. to achieve that with most of my trad ml's typically means a smaller ball diameter and not too thick a patch. the patch lube is super important, and what i now use exclusively is good ol' #1 gato feo that's been both rubbed ONTO the patch strip cloth weave and then heat gunned INTO that weave. these greased patch strips feel nearly dry to the touch, though in super summer heat i'll vary the grease formula by using more beeswax. the 16"-18" patch strips are either rolled up (for muzzle cutting), or cut into squares (the width of the strip - width depends on caliber) for individual patches, or used with a ball board. this trad muzzleloader thing will always be a personal journey - who'd want it any other way? :)

[heelerau]

Mate, I bought Dutchs' system a couple of years ago, he stated that the cutting oil he normally used had changed in its formula at some point, and now suggested Balistol, that is what I am using and it seems fine.

[Toymaker]

Tru-Edge Economy Soluble Oil

Tru-Edge Lubricants
P.O. Box 227
Clover, South Carolina 29710
803-222-7337

Hope that helps. Be glad to give you any additional info off the label or photograph it for you and send it. Just send me a message with your email address.

I use 7:1 dilution.

At some point Dutch did start suggesting Ballistol but his original recommendation was water soluble oil "looks like oil, smells like oil, feels like oil, tastes like oil". He also warned against the blue water soluble oil because it was combustible at high heat and pressure, which caused some interesting results.

[Cary Gunn]

Gents,

A dozen years ago, or so, NAPA sold what it labeled as "soluble cutting and grinding oil." I sometimes couldn't find it on the store shelves, but the clerk at the counter was always able to find it listed in NAPA's huge merchandise catalog as NAPA Item Number 765-1526. Sometimes, when it wasn't on the store shelves, I'd have the clerk order some to be picked up days later.

I got my best accuracy in all my patched-ball rifles using Dutch's system, which involved mixing the NAPA oil 1-to-6 with well water, saturating the patching material with the oil-water mix, and allowing the cloth to dry. Black powder fouling, which otherwise would have hampered repeated reloading, was remedied by swabbing with a patch wetted with a very sparse oil-water mix (1 oil/30 water), followed by a dry patch between each loading.

The swabbing certainly complicated the loading process, but I felt the superb accuracy resulting from Dutch's method was worth the price in extra labor.

The only snag I found in the process was that some rifles would toss their first shot from a cold, clean bore to a different spot than the group formed by following shots. In loading for hunting situations, I finally resorted to popping a cap on a light blank load of black powder topped with a "wad" of paper, followed by wet/dry swabbing, then loading my regular hunting load. The loading routine was a "pain in the nether-region," but was necessary to make some finicky rifles place their first shots where they needed to go.

I killed quite a few whitetails with balls so patched in .50 and .54 caliber rifles. I also found the sparse oil-water mix (1-to-30) made a fine black-powder cleaning solution when the day's shooting was done.

Anyway, NAPA Item Number 765-1526 was stuff I used. Don't know if it is still available as such.

Happy trails,

-- Cary Gunn --

[Rattus58]

I'm not posting this to get into a debate on what the best patch lube is so let's not go there please.

I am looking for an answer of what water soluble oil is the best now for doing the Dutch Shultz patching? i.e. soaking patch material and then letting it dry.

I've used this type of patching for many years and the last time I made patching material up was probably five years ago when I made a large supply of it. I'm getting ready to make a supply of it again as I'm getting low.

I use pillow ticking as well as thinner cotton material for patching. At the time that Dutch cam out with this, my brother and i tried it and it worked very well for both of us. At the time (probably twenty years ago) we got a container of water soluble oil form the local NAPA dealer. The last time I made patching, I used it up but kept the container to get another one. Well . . . in our move to a new place this past June, the empty container evidently got tossed by mistake and I no longer have the NAPA name or number of the water soluble oil. So I have been doing searches and have run across remarks of the newer water soluble oil having "polymer additives".

So what are those who use this method using for the water soluble oil now to do this type of lubing of the patching (which is then air dried)? Ballistol? If so, what is the best source for it - never used it so is it available in hardware store or ?

I usually cut strips of the material (after washing well to remove the "sizing"), soak and hang out to dry. (Normally I muzzle cut). This time, I'll make more strips but then also want to soak a piece of the material and then cut "pre cut" patches out of it using my drill press and patch cutting cutters I've made.

I did call the local NAPA store but it has changed hands and the young fellow I talked with didn't have much information that would help as far as trying to get the same thing we bought years ago. The "old timers" who could answer questions and who had the experience/knowledge have all retired.

Thanks

I've actually used and use NAPA water soluble oil and I've also for several years used Ballistol... both work well.. soluble oil last longer on the patch than does Ballistol, but if you're going to use it timely, doesn't make a whit of difference... except in MY OPINION... NAPA needs more water or an 8:1 ratio where a 7:1 worked with Ballistol... and this is not SCIENCE... just a fingertip analysis... :D