45-70 300 grain boattail boolit ??

[crackerjack57]

i am target shooting and hunting with my H&R 45-70 buffalo classic rifle and need some input from those who have experience with this rifle and caliber. and 32" barrel.
my daughter shoots a 30-06 with a 200 gn boattail bullet and the boattail makes a difference with a flatter trajectory. wondering why i dont see a 300 grain boattail boolit available for my 45 caliber? also, if available, has anyone played around with going as far as 500 yards with this combo?

i shoot black powder and modern also and usually shoot 500 grain greasers with 65 gns of 2F but want to try something lighter for a flatter trajectory.

Thanx in advance for your input.
Dan

[country gent]

At the velocities of the 45-70 a boat tail isn't going to give as much increase and may allow for blow by on the bullet. If your shooting cast the blow by may also cause gas cutting of the bullet. The heavier bullets carry energy better and farther. I shoot shilouettes with a 45-70 and the heavier bullets are much better for the longer ranges. I normally use 550 grn bullets. The lighter bullet is going to drop velocity much faster and be affected by wind more at long ranges. Trajectory may even be more due to the velocity dropping off faster. One thing to watch is to start out sub sonic and it stays sub sonic to the target, no change due to the change from super sonic to sub sonic. You either want to start sub sonic or enough velocity to stay super sonic to the target. The 30-06 with the 200 grn bullet starts super sonic and stays above to the target. I shoot to 500 yds wth the 45-70 but use a 500 grn-550 grn bullet. My bullets are the 510 grn Lyman Govt round nose 457125. The 535 grn Lyman postell ( not sure of the mould number) that I converted to a nose pour years ago. The last is the 550 grn shilouette made by Bernie Rowels at Old west moulds. These work very well for me
Another consideration is a smooth sided Paper Patched bullet shoots slightly flatter than the comparable grease grooved bullets. This is due to less drag from grease grooves and rifling engraving.

[runfiverun]

agree.
the light weight and a boat tail will gain you nothing and may cost you especially when the wind starts blowing.

[crackerjack57]

Hey country gent. Im dan by the way. I do have a paper patch mold which will do 350-550 gn boolits. a am wrapping them with the proper onion skin rag paper. im loading with 65 gn of 2F and my cronied speed is 1250 fps at the muzzle with a weight of 472 gns. the mold is more pointed. i am loading to the standards of the book; the paper jacket by i believe bill Matthews. i "can" shoot to 330 and 440 yards but accuracy i think can be better. i bought some jacketed 300 grain winchesters and did a honest 1 1/4" group at 330y. im shooting a H&R buffalo classic 32" barrel with scope. I know the gun and I can do it but cant figure out why not tighter with the heavy pills which i would rather be shooting as it is for hunting. i shoot and run a brush through the barrel several times between shots.

I also have a lee 500 grain greaser mold.

also, are you using iron sights out to 500? if my eyes allowed, that would be my preference. id need to try. if your using iron sights, id love to know your gear suitable for hunting.

Im all ears.

Dan

[country gent]

I have 2 45-70s a pedersoli Long range ( cabellas run) and a Sharps brochart. The Pedersoli is a 34" half round barrel 1-18 twist it has just under .002 taper from breech to muzzle. The Brochardt is a 32" Al Story barrel with .004 choke at the muzzle. I use a Steeve Brooks adjustable mould in the pedersoli ( I just got the Brochardt and Ive been "down" this summer so haven't tried it yet) that's set to 512 grns currently.I have shot this with both the tang mounted long range soule and Hadley eye cup with wind gage front sight, I prefer a wider front post in it. My load is 65 grns of 2 f Olde Eynsforde BP a rubber fiber wad .060 thick a .090 grease cookie of sbg and a .020 playing card wad. Powder and R/F wad is compressed to allow bullet to seat .180 deep from the case mouth. Bullets are hand seated and tension set with a bushing die. Paper is Seth Cole 2 wraps to .449 - .450 dia on the bullet. My bullets are cast from 20-1 alloy. This load and rifle will clean rams at 500 yds.

I prefer Steve wrights book Loading and shooting the paper patched bullet a begineers guide over Paul Matthews The paper jacket. I find it to have more info for BP and is in a better format to see and understand.

Several things affect these big pills 1) is twist rate, they are long bullets and a to slow twist really hurt stabilization. 2) Follow thru can become an issue, with these bullets and recoil having the rifle recoil the same way every time is harder. 3) recoil itself takes a toll on the shooter as the string goes on. You just plain get punch drunk at times. 4) is bench technique is very important uneven pressure on the rifle causes larger groups.

A couple big pluses that help are a level in the front globe, this helps remove the canting of the rifle. A recoil pad. Past style or butt stock slip on. Finding the dead spot on the barrel or forearm for front bag placement helps a lot also.

I have a C Sharps Hepburn in 45-90 that does great with the above bullet but Its hard for me to get thru a days match with the level of recoil.

[crackerjack57]

thanx for the input. I have emailed with RFD (rob) a whole bunch in the past and will continue. he has been a fantastic guy with solid input and he has helped me a bunch. I know that he primarily shoots the 500+ grainers and like you also shoots the pedersoli style rifles. I was just wanting to see if others out there might be shooting a lighter boolit and getting a tighter group. with my 500 grainers i can do 4 1/2" roughly. with the 300's 1 1/4" just cant figure why the difference. i dont think im doing too bad with the heavy pills but you know how it is........ just a little more!! might be that this rifle likes the lighter pills better.

[Geezer in NH]

Boatail please define at 300 grains??????

[crackerjack57]

I can't define as I have nothing to go by.

[crackerjack57]

It may be 300 or 350 gn. Just a ballpark to start the idea. I have "0" experience with boattail 45-70 however did read the only article I could find on the subject by Dan Theodore whom I thought I would pm and ask more questions however if what I found is correct, he may no longer be with us therefore additional info isn't possible. I'm just trying to see if others may have played with this idea before me.

[Tom Myers]

It may be 300 or 350 gn. Just a ballpark to start the idea. I have "0" experience with boattail 45-70 however did read the only article I could find on the subject by Dan Theodore whom I thought I would pm and ask more questions however if what I found is correct, he may no longer be with us therefore additional info isn't possible. I'm just trying to see if others may have played with this idea before me.

crackerjack57,

This is the information I have in my files residing in the Precision Cast Bullet Design Software (http://www.tmtpages.com/#advanced) relating to Dan Theodore's boat tail bullet design.
I have no recorded information on the results of his test firings but, if I remember correctly, it was difficult to maintain bullet base integrity when loaded with compressed black powder and needed some sort of filler above the wad to encase the boat tail and maintain alignment as the bullet exited the muzzle.

And yes, Dan Theodore is no longer with us.

Hope this helps.

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/DT%20Designs/DT_Design_458-450-BT.Jpg http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/DT%20Designs/DT_Design_458-450-BT-r.Jpg

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/DT%20Designs/DT_Design_458-450-BT_453_gr_Sketch.Jpg