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Lloyd Smale
08-03-2008, 07:57 AM
sure can get alot of gun for 400 bucks right now. I see now weatherby is in the game too. You can get a vanguard even in weatherby mag chamberings for 399. I may just have to pick up a 257 weatherby at those prices. thats retail too im sure they can be had alot cheaper then that.

BlackRifleShooter
08-03-2008, 10:22 AM
I heard an ad for the 257 wby mag for 399 the other day. I may have to pick one up to........ as long as the wife doesnt find out about it, should be a good deal.

Boerrancher
08-03-2008, 10:43 AM
Lloyd,

Before you think about picking up one of those $400 dollar Weatherbys you might want to also figure out how much it is going to cost to have it re-barreled. I have had several friends buy those Vanguards and not been able to make them shoot better than a 2 MOA group at 100 yards, even after glass bedding the action and free floating the barrels. Even tried pillar bedding on the synthetic stocked ones. When we got to checking into them a bit more closely, we found that the throats were excessively long. Most of the guys got tired of messing with theirs and sold them. A couple of them bought new barrel blanks and had the local gunsmith chamber and install the new barrels. Those rifles once re-barreled shot sub MOA groups with just about every type of ammo fed them. Just something to think about, because once you take it home and shoot it, and find that you can't make it shoot, you went from owning a new $400 gun to a barely used $250 gun.

Best Wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

Boz330
08-03-2008, 10:51 AM
That freebore allows them to get those impressive velocities without boosting the preasures to dangerous levels.
I used to have a 60s vintage Vanguard in 264 Win Mag. It would shoot 120s into 3/8" at a 100. That was one fine shooting gun. Used it on everthing from groundhogs to elk.

Bob

anachronism
08-03-2008, 10:51 AM
All Weatherby rifles have a lot of freebore. A friend has a high-end MKV .257 that only likes one factory load. It took him a long time to develop a handload it liked. Interestingly enough, it didn't use the same bullet that the factory load did. But the factory load with the bullet he finally got to shoot well only made about 2.5 in groups. He's very proud of his Weatherby. When he first showed it to me I told him to take it back. I warned him it wouldn't shoot cast bullets worth a lick...

Scrounger
08-03-2008, 11:53 AM
Cheaper than re-barreling might be to just set the barrel back 8 or 10 millimeters and rechambering with a better throat.

Heavy lead
08-03-2008, 12:04 PM
Sometimes you can get lucky with a lesser expensive gun, sometimes you can't. Sometimes you get unlucky with a more expensive gun too. In the late 90's I went through 4 brand new model 70's all different calibers, pretty rifles, all of them had junk barrels on them. One of them got sold, two got rebarreled, one to a 338/06 that thinks it's a varmit/target gun, one to a 257 Weatherby, which shot good to great, but got sold, and another a rare factory caliber (a 284 winchester in a model 70 classic) is in the gun cabinet so I can sell it some day. Since then if I want a shooter I either by a Remington 700, a save a little extra and by a Kimber. I'm sure there are some bad ones out there, I have or have had 12 of them since 2001 and they all have shot good for me.
I'd go for that Vangard if that's what you want, you can stick a new tube on it if you need to, but what the heck for 400 bucks you can afford too. I've spent more than that on just an action.

DLCTEX
08-03-2008, 02:30 PM
My 257 Weatherby Vanguard shoots fine 1 1/4" with factory ammo. Better with handloads. I haven't tried cast in it yet, but I won't really care if it won't shoot cast, as I have other rifles for cast. I shot a small prarie dog with it recently at better than 400 yds, so I am confident I will be able to take the deer out in the wheatfields this fall. DALE

wiljen
08-03-2008, 03:06 PM
My vanguard shoots to about 1.5 MOA and that is fine for a hunting gun where I'm concerned. I would suggest that you invest in a Timney trigger the day you buy a vanguard though. I was really unimpressed with the stock trigger, the Timney is $75 well spent.

danski26
08-03-2008, 03:09 PM
I like my Vanguard chambered in .270. It shoots around 1.5 to 2 inch 10 shot 100 yard groups with several different bullets. I'm happy with that. I bought it from a guy for $250.....he was not happy with that preformance. I bedded it and installed a Timney trigger. It's not as nice as many of my rifles but i find that i hunt with it more than most.

Lloyd Smale
08-04-2008, 07:14 AM
they advertise that they guarantee 1.5 inch groups or better so if a guy got a lemon he could just trade it on another. Ive got a 243 howa which is the same gun and it will do under an inch with handloads. Never tried factory ammo so i dont know how it shoots with them.

GabbyM
08-04-2008, 10:05 AM
They are advertised guaranteed to put three shots in that 1 1/2”group. You have to get that done before the barrel fouls out.

I've a 1970'ish Vanguard in 270 WIN. Predates the Wall-Mart contract. With the typical crap barrel. You can see the reamer marks swirling all the way down the bore. They just ran the hammer forge button down a rough bore. To be fair. Back then you tossed a Remington barrel and put a good one on too. Remington has improved though.

The Vanguard does feed nice. Flawlessly actually. Holds five rounds just like a Winchester. Has a nice semi fancy walnut stock. Just needs a barrel that will shoot without fouling. It will give you about seven good shots then it's fouled out. Takes two days to soak all the copper out.

It has a very long magazine to go with the long throat. It likes 150 grain Hornady's loaded well out past the crimp grove -.03 from the rifling. Which is fine since the bullet still reaches the bottom of the neck.
A new barrel and it would be one deadly stick. 35 Wheelan?

1Shirt
08-04-2008, 10:06 AM
No mention of the cheap single shots and I have seen a number of them on the range that are somewhat ugly, but will do or be close to MOA. A friend of mine and I were shooting p-dogs about 5 years ago, and both using .223's. Mine a heavy bbl Sav. his a butt ugly little $200.00 single with a 3x9 scope, and he stayed with me on kills out to close to 250 yds. With a better higher power scope he would probably have stayed with me out to the 350-400 mark. Have to admit I was a bit more than supprised at the thing.
1Shirt!:coffee:

yondering
08-04-2008, 12:28 PM
My varmint hunting buddy has a Vanguard in .223 that he picked up for $400 new about 2 years ago. It shoots as good or better than my 788, which is great. His vanguard shoots 1/2 to 3/4 MOA with the winchester white box stuff from Wal-mart, and better with the right handloads. I've been real impressed, but he won't sell it to me. :(

BOOM BOOM
08-04-2008, 09:53 PM
HI,
OK so i am out of step here. $400 is not cheap!

DLCTEX
08-04-2008, 10:35 PM
I must have lucked out with my rifle as the bore is smooth as glass and just does not foul with jacketed. I really like the 257 cal. pushing 100 gr. bullets at 3600 fps. DALE

357maximum
08-04-2008, 11:07 PM
for a few bucks more one can have a remington 700 sps.........I fail to see the value in a 400 bolter................just one fellas opinion though.

Lloyd Smale
08-05-2008, 06:23 AM
got to keep in mind that 400 is retail and who pays that. Id bet one could be bought for 325 and when you take into account that a bolt ruger, win, or rem. will set you back over 500 anymore and closer to 600 id have to say thats cheap. The thing i woud keep in mind that even though it really means nothing its got weatherby on it and a guy would have alot easier time peddling it used then he would with a atr or marlin bolt. Most inexperienced gun buyers think that if it is a weatherby there buying a cadilac.

Bass Ackward
08-05-2008, 07:51 AM
Believe it or not, this is one of the most selected actions for cheaper custom rifles. And with good reason.

If you pull the barrel and set them up like you want to blue print them, you will find that they are the most perfect mass produced actions today. In most cases, they don't even need to be lapped. If you find one that appears out, you better go back and double check yourself, because it's probably you. :grin:

I believe that this contributes to their accuracy. Especially, if you want to free float a barrel.

yondering
08-05-2008, 02:03 PM
Believe it or not, this is one of the most selected actions for cheaper custom rifles. And with good reason.

If you pull the barrel and set them up like you want to blue print them, you will find that they are the most perfect mass produced actions today. In most cases, they don't even need to be lapped. If you find one that appears out, you better go back and double check yourself, because it's probably you. :grin:

I believe that this contributes to their accuracy. Especially, if you want to free float a barrel.

I gotta agree with Bass on this one. I like my Rem 700's, but the Vanguard (Howa) action is pretty good. If you're stepping up to the price of the 700, why not get the Tikka T3? Having owned both, I think the T3 is a way better gun all around, and they are only $10 more than a 700 SPS at the local Sportsmans Warehouse.

Ricochet
08-05-2008, 04:03 PM
My Vanguard .300 Weatherby is a very good shooter.

The factory guarantee is for a 3-shot group with Weatherby factory ammo in 1.5 MOA or less, and they ship with a target demonstrating it. That is, the guarantee's already been exercised when you bought the rifle. Mine looked like only two holes .8" apart. One hole was very slightly elongated; it was two shots. And it's always been capable of shooting like that with the Remington and Weatherby factory loads and most of the handloads I've tried in it. I don't understand the criticisms of the "too long throat." As long as the bullet fits the throat, where's the problem? It's analogous to a revolver. We all know they can shoot very well if the bullet fits the throat. Only way to have an accuracy problem with that is for the bullet to fit loosely in the throat, so it can tip or be radially misaligned.

357maximum
08-05-2008, 05:13 PM
I gotta agree with Bass on this one. I like my Rem 700's, but the Vanguard (Howa) action is pretty good. If you're stepping up to the price of the 700, why not get the Tikka T3? Having owned both, I think the T3 is a way better gun all around, and they are only $10 more than a 700 SPS at the local Sportsmans Warehouse.

I guess a few people would still rather contribute to an american worker feeding his family is all, getting harder to do all the time, but I still try when I can.....this is the very same reason I will not use them evil self-checkout lanes...just me being ol fashioned I guess.

Lloyd Smale
08-06-2008, 07:09 AM
Well tikka may be an imported gun but so are the weatherbys and so are many remintons and marlin shotguns. Even Ruger buys handgun magazines from a non american company. It suck! Ive allways been a guy that tried to buy american. You still wont see a toyota or nissan in my driveway but just like the auto builders the gun builders outsourse alot of there stuff in foriegn countrys anymore. As to not buying at a store with an automatic checkout. I think the guys that build those machines probably have higher paying jobs then the checkout people that were there before them. They might argue with your thoughts on that.

357maximum
08-13-2008, 04:20 AM
Well tikka may be an imported gun but so are the weatherbys and so are many remintons and marlin shotguns. Even Ruger buys handgun magazines from a non american company. It suck! Ive allways been a guy that tried to buy american. You still wont see a toyota or nissan in my driveway but just like the auto builders the gun builders outsourse alot of there stuff in foriegn countrys anymore. As to not buying at a store with an automatic checkout. I think the guys that build those machines probably have higher paying jobs then the checkout people that were there before them. They might argue with your thoughts on that.

I see your point Lloyd, but that one guy that tends to one chains computers would likely have less voice (to me) than the hundreds of people he replaced...just my take on it of course. In the end we all have an opinion and an ___hole.

Lloyd Smale
08-13-2008, 07:57 AM
Im not blind to your opionion and agree with it totaly. I dont like seeing people loose jobs either. It just that you have to look at every aspect of the situation. Somewhere theres a computer designer and some technicians that busted there hump and went to school to better themselves. Who do i feel sorry for them or the towel head running the till at 7-11 or the supermarket. Bottom line is this is still a free country and a country with oppertunity. If a guy really wants to work theres work out there. Im a lineman for the power company and our company started a school to train future lineman. Its a one year program. they can take 30 men or women a year. this year only 21 started and out of that 10 quit before graduation. Im friends with the instructor and asked why. He said because it is a physical job and lots of the kids he gets are just lazy spoiled brats. Had to laugh when i read your post because he told me two of them previously worked at walmart and told them they were going back because it was a much easier job and they didnt have to be outside in the weather. I guess im a little colder then some people but i dont have alot of sympathy for someone thats career goal is being a checkout at a grocery store or at walmart. the local electricains union hall is screaming for apprentices now too. I just got my neighbors kid in there. Sure this may be an exception and some places may be tougher to get work but theres work in this country. Problem is theres longer lines at the welfare office then at the places that hire. I shake my head at people that complain they cant find work but then will tell you theres no way there leaving there home town. Well if thats your attitude dont cry to me. Sorry about the off topic rant. Guess im not in a great mood this morning.

Blammer
08-13-2008, 11:40 AM
Marlin XL7 for $289

I'll let you know how it does when I get it.

Lloyd Smale
08-13-2008, 12:51 PM
i need to pick up 4 cheap rifles for the remaining grandkids. Thing is I allready bought 243s for the first two and i want to keep them all the same so im not spending my whole life reloading. I also have about 3000 243 bullets to load so im about all set for there hunting ammo for life. If they get into shooting like me they can reload there own. If marlin chambered it in 243 it would probably be my pick. I think mosberg does there atrs in 243 and its probably the way ill go.
Marlin XL7 for $289

I'll let you know how it does when I get it.

trickg
08-13-2008, 01:09 PM
If I was going to buy a rifle today, I'd buy a Howa - not a Weatherby Vangaurd Howa, but just a standard Howa. At the last gun show I attended, I looked at quite a few rifles and I was really impressed with the Howas that were there. They were pretty slick rifles - the actions were smooth, tight and slick, right from the factory, and they came with accompanying targets showing sub MOA groups.

Scrounger
08-13-2008, 01:45 PM
I'd say the Howa or Vanguard, but I'd opt for a .30-06 or .308 rather than a .243. Greater versatility. They can be loaded down to .30 Carbine ballistics or even less, yet be heavy enough for Moose-Elk-Bear if that possibility comes up, and, in my opinion, more cast-friendly than the .243. At least there is a much greater range of cast bullets available for it.

carpetman
08-13-2008, 02:15 PM
Scrounger---He said the .243 is for his grandkids and the other two already have them. The .243 works great on deer regardless of all the posts that say marginal at best and use premium bullets. I'd go .243 and look at CZ if they are within budget. Range of cast bullets for it. They have the 95 grain RCBS,what else could possiblybe needed?

Scrounger
08-13-2008, 02:54 PM
Go back to the sheep pen. i can read and I stand by my opinion. I don't see any great difference in time or labor in reloading 200 of one caliber and 400 of another as opposed to loading 600 of one caliber. And the value of increased capability for use on larger/dangerous animals is certainly worth what little extra effort there might be. I know Lloyd is as strong minded as I am and he will in the end make up his own mind and we both will be happy.

Bad Water Bill
08-14-2008, 03:36 AM
If you are looking for a good price on an American made rifle STEVENS is the way to go. It is the same as Savage just not polished as highly. Get the 243 and go for now. When the G C grow up loosen the bbl nut and screw on a 308 tube. Most Stevens rifles or bbls will shoot M O A out of the box if you do your part. They may not be the prettiest but they will fill the pot all day long. my .02 :Fire: P S They can be purchased for less than $300.00

357maximum
08-14-2008, 04:28 AM
Im not blind to your opionion and agree with it totaly. I dont like seeing people loose jobs either. It just that you have to look at every aspect of the situation. Somewhere theres a computer designer and some technicians that busted there hump and went to school to better themselves. Who do i feel sorry for them or the towel head running the till at 7-11 or the supermarket. Bottom line is this is still a free country and a country with oppertunity. If a guy really wants to work theres work out there. Im a lineman for the power company and our company started a school to train future lineman. Its a one year program. they can take 30 men or women a year. this year only 21 started and out of that 10 quit before graduation. Im friends with the instructor and asked why. He said because it is a physical job and lots of the kids he gets are just lazy spoiled brats. Had to laugh when i read your post because he told me two of them previously worked at walmart and told them they were going back because it was a much easier job and they didnt have to be outside in the weather. I guess im a little colder then some people but i dont have alot of sympathy for someone thats career goal is being a checkout at a grocery store or at walmart. the local electricains union hall is screaming for apprentices now too. I just got my neighbors kid in there. Sure this may be an exception and some places may be tougher to get work but theres work in this country. Problem is theres longer lines at the welfare office then at the places that hire. I shake my head at people that complain they cant find work but then will tell you theres no way there leaving there home town. Well if thats your attitude dont cry to me. Sorry about the off topic rant. Guess im not in a great mood this morning.




Lloyd, not really arguing anything you posted above,but not everyone has a way to the bigtime, nor do they seek it....mediocrity has it's place and serves a purpose.

I busted my a$$ on my last job (underground construction) for 10+ YEARS only to have it fall from around me due to no fault of mine. The whole thing took a major toll on my well being for a bit, but I perservered and actually come out of it smelling like a rose doing something totally different and wearing a collar of a different color, due to due diligence on my part...I get what you are saying, and agree with ya to a point.



However...there has to be a middle ground between those who are go getters at full throttle and those who do nothin, but piss moan whine, and wait for a handout....certain jobs actually keep some happy...far better that than standing in the bread line.....

:twisted:you would not be so cranky if you did not play with live electricity all the time btw:twisted:[smilie=1: thats why I used to work with nat gas...it at least had a few warning signs....juice just bites you...no warning, I trust electricity about as far as i can throw a dead moose, never had issue with HP gas though.

I hope that made sense...on my way to bed

Michael

Lloyd Smale
08-14-2008, 07:13 AM
Michael i wasnt trying to start a pissing match either. I just have no use for lazy people. Ive got them in my own family. One of my daughters has been a welfare bum her whole life. She had the balls to come over and ask me for 2000 bucks the other day to bail her boyfriend out of jail. Said if she didnt raise the money hed sit in jail for 2 years. i asked what for and she said for not paying child support. I about blew a cork! this guy is 30 years old has never held a steady job. Has 2 kids by her and two by two other girls. I set the bumb up with a job with a local home builder last year. I road by there house a week later and saw him riding his 4 wheeler. Asked why he wasnt working and he said he quit because it was just to hot to work. Not hot enough to not be able to ride a 4 wheeler though. From what ive seen his attitude is more the norm then the exception with kids these days. So if some kid wants to go to school and bust his *** and get a great paying job designing computers that alow auto checkouts at walmart. i say good for him. I just wish one of them would invent an auto kick in the *** machine for the rest of them.

Lloyd Smale
08-14-2008, 07:18 AM
srounger i have to doubt a 308 is superior to the 243 in the field. If it were for me there be little doubt which id choose. What im looking for is light recoiling guns (two are even going to girls) that light recoiling factory ammo can be found. Im not going to be around forever. All they will ever hunt with them is whitetail deer. if they decide to persue something larger ive got a safe full of guns they can use. Ive killed a truck load of deer with 243s and 6mms and the small 25s and have yet to loose one. My 6mm remington classic has been the camp gun at our hunting camp for over a decade and in the hands of about everyone that hunts there has probably killed more deer then all of my other guns combined. Not one wounded animal.

Bret4207
08-14-2008, 09:52 AM
Lloyd, you sound like you know some of my neighbors! There are jobs aplenty for those willing to get up in the morning and work. I wish our local electric co was looking for people. We have National Grid and they're shedding folks like crazy. I'm going to try and build a business and make some space for family members.

trickg
08-14-2008, 11:46 AM
There are jobs aplenty for those willing to get up in the morning and work.
And that's really what's at the heart of the matter. Someone with a bit of a work ethic who has some moxie can do quite well for themselves, and it's not really even necessary to have great education credentials. I don't know whether I have simply been lucky or if I created my current situation of employment, but I do quite well and don't have a single college degree (I don't even have an Associates degree) to my name. However, I am willing to get up, be responsible, and work to get the job done.

Getting back to the rifles, Lloyd, you seem to have some loyalty to the .243, but to doubt that a .308 would be superior to the .243 in the field is a pretty bold statement to the versatility of the .243. There is no doubt that the .243 has proven to be a fine caliber for a number of different things, but it does have some limitations. There is nothing the .243 can do that the .308 can't, but the reverse is not really true. That said, if the largest game animal you intended to hunt was deer, you are probably right and I would tend to think that the .243 would stand up quite well to the .308. If you had designs on going larger than deer, the .243 would probably best be left at home and the .308 would probably be a better way to go, although some might argue that if you wanted to go larger than deer, then the .308 might not be enough either.

Heavy lead
08-14-2008, 12:12 PM
A year a go I bought two rifles, both Rem 700 ADL's one in 270 and one in 7 mag, both the plastic stock and both the plastic triggerguard. Paid 250 for one, paid 325 for another, these appeared to be unshot. I was going to rebarrel them both and just wanted the action, but I couldn't resist it. I scoped them up, and whatduno, they're both 1moa guns, so I got the catalog out ordered BDL bottom metal (at 67 bucks a piece, used existing follower and existing mag box (cut off) and ordered two new CDL stocks from Stocky's, one maple, one walnut at 289 shipped for the both, adjusted the triggers (both are sweet) and so I figure I got 998 into both of them, and the rough matte ADL finish looks awesome in those CDL stocks, especially the maple one.
Nice cheap guns, sometimes you gotta get lucky.
I'm still looking for a couple of 700 actions. Dangit!
Don't be afraid to look for used stuff.

corvette8n
08-14-2008, 03:48 PM
I have two Savage 110's both LH, one in .308 the other in .338wm bought them both used. The .338wm will outshoot the .308 all day long. I'm not sure what is wrong with the .308 haven't had time to play with it.

EMC45
08-14-2008, 05:20 PM
Got a sporterized 7X57 Mauser the other day for 75 bucks! That's a whole lotta rifle for a little coin!

Ben
08-14-2008, 07:26 PM
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=34694

MT Gianni
08-14-2008, 07:35 PM
Lloyd, you sound like you know some of my neighbors! There are jobs aplenty for those willing to get up in the morning and work. I wish our local electric co was looking for people. We have National Grid and they're shedding folks like crazy. I'm going to try and build a business and make some space for family members.

There is a forcast shortage of electrical workers in the Northwest of 50,000 projected in the next 10 years. Current journeyman wage is over $30 an hour most places and you can't find workers.

PatMarlin
08-15-2008, 03:20 AM
One peice of the accuracy puzzle I haven't read here is shoot/clean barrel breakin.

If you guys want nat's *** groups out of these rifles you need to put the time in.

I shot cleaned over 100 rounds with low veloctiy copper through my Howa stainless in .223 and it will easily shoot 1/2 moa. I watched the groups shrink as that barrel slicked up, and with much, much less fouling.

yondering
08-15-2008, 12:17 PM
One peice of the accuracy puzzle I haven't read here is shoot/clean barrel breakin.

If you guys want nat's *** groups out of these rifles you need to put the time in.

I shot cleaned over 100 rounds with low veloctiy copper through my Howa stainless in .223 and it will easily shoot 1/2 moa. I watched the groups shrink as that barrel slicked up, and with much, much less fouling.

I agree with Pat on that one. There's always debate about break-in, it's a pain to do, it's a lot of cleaning, but when it's done, the results are far superior. On the last couple new rifles, I've used the Tubb's final finish bullets from Midway for barrel break-in. It's not really any faster, but I end up with bores that hardly foul copper at all with max loads. Haven't shot any of these rifles with cast, but gotta assume the smoother bore would be helpful there too.

Heavy lead
08-17-2008, 09:10 PM
This can be true with expensive rifles too. I've fire lapped a few and it works. You can really tell alot by how smooth a bore is the first time you put a jag and a tight fitting patch down the bore.