Why are they no longer sharp...Driving bands

[lablover]

Been casting for the last 3 days..Mold started spitting out boolits that had the driving bands a little soft/not crisp. Cleaned the mold very well and it's still happening. Alloy temp is 700-750. I added 1% tin to the WW mix and they started good but then went to pot! Tried a different mold...Same thing. It's almost like the leading edge of the bands look slightly frosted as compared to the rest of the boolits. I keep my NOE 200gr SWC molt at around 440 deg. It seems to like it hot or so I thought. Funny too is the whole boolit looks pretty good except those leading edges.

Looking forward to any suggestion. Funny, this all started when I tried to get the perfect base/bottom of the boolit.



Long day at work and then I went out and tried some more...Yea, that was a mistake!

Joe

[OS OK]

Vent problem? Are the mould faces clean in that area? Are you smoking the mould heavily and plugging vents? I dunnoh...will follow this thread to see what the fix is.

Make sure you post the fix when you find it...OK?

[lablover]

Will do, I will try again tomorrow. I read another post just now and I think I may be running my melt too hot...Worth a try. I remember last year when I started I was getting great looking boolits and I think the pot was at 650ish...Hmmmmmmmm.. couldn't be that easy..Could it?

Oh, no smoke or just a light coat..Cleaned out all the vent lines too...Still no go

EDIT: I will also say my new lee 4-20 has begin to pour at a fast dribble almost..For some reason it starts decent pour then starts to slow down?

[OS OK]

This is a pretty good 'riddle'...from your first post it looks like you are doing everything right on the money!

Are you preheating the mould all the time your Pb pot is coming up to temp?
Are you hitting dead center of the sprue plate hole...not allowing the Pb to hit the edge first and then funnel into the cavity?

Geeez...you got me on this one.

[Tom W.]

Your nozzle is getting plugged on your pot. When it happens to me I take a big paperclip, bend it an unwind it enough so I won't get burned, grab it with some pliers and commence to ream the nozzle. It works great.

[lablover]

This is a pretty good 'riddle'...from your first post it looks like you are doing everything right on the money!

Are you preheating the mould all the time your Pb pot is coming up to temp?
Are you hitting dead center of the sprue plate hole...not allowing the Pb to hit the edge first and then funnel into the cavity?

Geeez...you got me on this one.

Not hitting the hole dead center yet, the mould guide is driving me nuts! I think I may flip it over and try just the flat side. I am pre-heating the mold the whole time pot is coming to temp. But yea, I can't seem to hit that hole dead center....Yet. :)

[lablover]

Your nozzle is getting plugged on your pot. When it happens to me I take a big paperclip, bend it an unwind it enough so I won't get burned, grab it with some pliers and commence to ream the nozzle. It works great.


Will give that a shot

[OS OK]

Not hitting the hole dead center yet, the mould guide is driving me nuts! I think I may flip it over and try just the flat side. I am pre-heating the mold the whole time pot is coming to temp. But yea, I can't seem to hit that hole dead center....Yet. :)

OK...that just may be the problem, you loose temp on the Pb like that. Can you raise your pot some so that you can see better what your doing?
On my Lee 20# pot I had to grind off one of the corners of the guide so it would center well on wide moulds...seeing that Pbcoming out of the valve is crucial.


202443

I raised my pots just 6" or so and that was enough. Click on the picture and you can see where I ground the edge off the mould guide.

[lablover]

OK...that just may be the problem, you loose temp on the Pb like that. Can you raise your pot some so that you can see better what your doing?
On my Lee 20# pot I had to grind off one of the corners of the guide so it would center well on wide moulds...seeing that Pbcoming out of the valve is crucial.


202443

I raised my pots just 6" or so and that was enough. Click on the picture and you can see where I ground the edge off the mould guide.

Thats a great idea! I'll knock one out at work tomorrow at lunch..I'm a cabinet maker..LOL. But yea, I have a heck of a time seeing where that melt is going.

OK, I have to ask being still a newbie..What is PB...

BTW, slick set up. I've been thinking about that pot upgrade that was posted here a bit back..Seems like nice gear..Almost too nice for such an inexpensive pot.

[OS OK]

Pb is lead
Sn is tin
Sb is antimony
Cu is copper

I abbreviate a lot IIRC.

IIRC is If I Remember Correctly

You'll get used to it.

[lablover]

Pb is lead
Sn is tin
Sb is antimony
Cu is copper

I abbreviate a lot IIRC.

IIRC is If I Remember Correctly

You'll get used to it.

OK, I knew that..why did I not remember..Oh yea...Long day at work..Scary, getting old sucks!

Thanks for the reminder...

Looking forward to making that riser for my pots. I have the lee 20 and the 10. I like the way you have the pans under as well. Pretty slick

[DerekP Houston]

The standard mold guide on a 4-20 just annoyed me, I free handed until I had enough sheckles to replace it. Might experiment with lower the melt temp and increasing mold temp...thats my only thing I play with when bad fillout now. Oh, or add more tin ;)

[bosterr]

When I saw that the edges were frosted, the first thing to come to mind was zinc contamination.

[Bzcraig]

Since it's happening with two molds it's definitely a hiccup in your process and think you may already figured it out with not getting lead directly into the mold.

[runfiverun]

shooting lead directly in the hole works best on long skinny bullets.
short fat ones need more venting to work their best.
the sprue hole is a lot of air compared to a few scribed lines.

your frosting issue is a mold temp problem, drop the mold temp about 20-f and I bet it goes away.
white colored rounded edges are the sure signs of frosting.
your probably just getting more efficient at getting the mold emptied and back to being filled again.
try counting while waiting and all the way back to when you started counting. [end of pour]
15-20 second cycles will maintain a molds temperature no problem.
change the rhythm [count time] as needed when you see to shiny, or too hot, on the boolits coming from the mold.

[Jack Stanley]

I notice several off your posts mention long days at work . The solution might be as simple as retiring ;-)

Jack

[Tom W.]

Retiring didn't help me much.....maybe sometime after November......

[fredj338]

I tend to pressure cast when hand casting. It seems to give the best fill out with most molds. Also fluxing often seems to help keep the alloy unified. For me that is just stirring often with a wooden paint stick.

[lablover]

Bwahaahhaaaa..I was retired and went back to work! Start at 7 and get home by 4. Just got home early and am debating going to try the new tips!

[lightman]

I'm thinking maybe a vent problem or a flow problem. Maybe not enough pressure or volume to get good fill out.

[17nut]

To hot!!!
Slow down and get the mould below 350.

When i go to fast with my RCBS Webley mould (square bands) they start to round.

202510

[lablover]

Couldn't resist, gave it another try tonight. Started with the mold at 350 and alloy at 650...Went thru about 5 pounds and every one was bad..Just bad fillout on the whole bullet..To make a long story short, never got a good one all night. I will say when I got that Now mold up to 425-450 they started to get less shiny but fillout was tons better. Still no clean edge on the top driving band bottom. The rest was great. I really think I may have damaged my mold when I took the bronze brush to it because I had gook all over it from a stupid mistake. I may order a Accurate Mold this time to just have a different one and have never had a Accurate. I also may get iron..maybe less finicky and more durable?

When the Noe was at 375 fish the booloits were looking like jewelry but ugly. They fell out of the mold super easy but I could not get them to fill out to save my life. As soon as it got hotter they filled out.

I'm gonna give it another scrubbing then degrease as I think it also may have some oil or something in there.

Tomorrow is another day.

BTW, I wonder if I can send the noe back and have him look at it and decide if I ruined it??

I will say after sizing they look sharp as a tack.....

[osteodoc08]

I didn't see it mentioned but I keep a SS shot cup under my nozzle and will let the first second or so drain into the shot cup. It makes sure the lead coming out is pot temp and not lower from being near the nozzle. This and making sure I am getting the lead through the spruce hole has made a huge difference for me.

As mentioned. Let the mold cool a few more seconds with the mold OPEN before the next pour. My aluminum molds will creep up in temp at a faster cadence if I'm not watching them.

[OS OK]

Couldn't resist, gave it another try tonight. Started with the mold at 350 and alloy at 650...Went thru about 5 pounds and every one was bad..Just bad fillout on the whole bullet..To make a long story short, never got a good one all night. I will say when I got that Now mold up to 425-450 they started to get less shiny but fillout was tons better. Still no clean edge on the top driving band bottom. The rest was great. I really think I may have damaged my mold when I took the bronze brush to it because I had gook all over it from a stupid mistake. I may order a Accurate Mold this time to just have a different one and have never had a Accurate. I also may get iron..maybe less finicky and more durable?

When the Noe was at 375 fish the booloits were looking like jewelry but ugly. They fell out of the mold super easy but I could not get them to fill out to save my life. As soon as it got hotter they filled out.

I'm gonna give it another scrubbing then degrease as I think it also may have some oil or something in there.

Tomorrow is another day.

BTW, I wonder if I can send the noe back and have him look at it and decide if I ruined it??

I will say after sizing they look sharp as a tack.....

I hate to say it but these problems will probabally make you a first class caster. You are measuring the temps and taking note of the casts as the temps vary between mould and pot...don't get discouraged as this is what we all go through at one time or another.
You are just getting all the problems right up front, no big deal though...sounds like you have the patience and determination to see it all through.
You'll be the next X-Pert offering up hints and tricks to the next group of Newbs when their singing the blues!

hang in there . . . c h a r l i e

[lablover]

Gave it another go tonight...Much better luck. The Now just does not want to cast good bullets unless its hot. After casting at different temps, she likes to be at 440-460 deg. The boolits are not shiny but have a slight cast to them..Not totally frosted by any stretch but a very nice grayish sheen. Honestly I like them that way. Bad thing is they don't want to drop as easy but I can live with that. They drop super easy with the mold cooler but the fallout is very bad.. I love the mold but will also be shopping for another..I keep hearing mihec or accurate...Now..Brass or Iron...Hmmmmmmmm

[OS OK]

Have you tried tapping on the hinge bolt of the handles right at the moment you are cracking the mould open?

One of my molds will go through a temp. range that the casts like to stick, I'll have to tap the hinge for a dozen loads or so and with a little longer time added to each pour things will smooth out and they start leaping out of the mould.

These dang moulds are a lot like women...you never seem to get a upper hand before they change their minds on ya!

[Cherokee]

In the pic below you will see I raised the height of my pot so I can see and I replaced the mold guide with a flat steel surface upon which I set the mold for pouring lead. Thin wood spacers can be used to change the distance from the sprue plate to the spout to accommodate different molds. Has worked great for me for many years. The Lee pots have been replaced with RCBS but I moved the same arrangement to them. YMMV

202604

[lablover]

I really appreciate all the help fellas. I think I'm getting closer to perfection.

[HeavyMetal]

what your room temp when you cast?

I've found that in Hotter weather molds and alloy can be cooler, but 700 in the pot is where I run.

I also try to use two molds when casting and have a hot plate which is set at just below medium that the freshly filled mold sits on, with the sprue plate touching the steel plate so it stays hot, while I open and refill the mold I just took off the hot plate.

This gives the molds a chance to stabilize temp wise and allows the castings to cool a little was well, you might try that.

[lablover]

what your room temp when you cast?

I've found that in Hotter weather molds and alloy can be cooler, but 700 in the pot is where I run.

I also try to use two molds when casting and have a hot plate which is set at just below medium that the freshly filled mold sits on, with the sprue plate touching the steel plate so it stays hot, while I open and refill the mold I just took off the hot plate.

This gives the molds a chance to stabilize temp wise and allows the castings to cool a little was well, you might try that.

I will try that. I usually set my mold on the hot plate with the spru plate up, or off the plate. I sit the bottom of the mold on the plate. I think I did try it the other way but it never seemed to get hot enough. My Noe has a temp probe so I can gauge pretty accurately what the temp is.

[lablover]

Have you tried tapping on the hinge bolt of the handles right at the moment you are cracking the mould open?

One of my molds will go through a temp. range that the casts like to stick, I'll have to tap the hinge for a dozen loads or so and with a little longer time added to each pour things will smooth out and they start leaping out of the mould.

These dang moulds are a lot like women...you never seem to get a upper hand before they change their minds on ya!

I do tap on the handle bolt, it's the only way they will fall out. And yes, my mold is more temperamental than my Wife...Well almost..LOL

[runfiverun]

it might be time to do a LEEmenting.
just some touch ups and a lite lap.

or you could try turning the alloy temp down about 25-f

[DerekP Houston]

I'd forgotten this.....trick I use is to preheat 1lb ingots on the hotplate at the same time as my mold, once they get up to temp I move 1 lb on to the sprue plate and let it heat up a bit longer. Double heat on each side seems to get me more consistent results and less beating on the sprue plate at the start.

[Grmps]

Your nozzle is getting plugged on your pot. When it happens to me I take a big paperclip, bend it an unwind it enough so I won't get burned, grab it with some pliers and commence to ream the nozzle. It works great.

I cut the head off a bamboo utensil, drilled a small hole in the end and stuck a bent wire in it. works great, easy to grab, don't need pliers.

I gave up on the guide, I use a short piece of 2x4 wrapped 3 sides with metal and adjust the height with thin pieces of plywood under it.

You may have contaminated lead, some zinc may have gotten into the WW mix. Clean out your pot and try some new/different lead. If you have a lot of the WW mix you may need to re-smelt it fluxing with either sulfer or copper sulfate to remove the zinc. Youll need to add some tin back in after your done

[lablover]

it might be time to do a LEEmenting.
just some touch ups and a lite lap.

or you could try turning the alloy temp down about 25-f

I will give it a go. But, I'm sure I ruined the mold by taking a bronze brush to it. It's aluminum..So yea, I'm shopping as we speak. It's getting almost impossible to open on its own and even when cold. I have some tasty marring around the alignment pin holes. :(

[DerekP Houston]

Well if it makes you feel better....i've gotten flashing and poor fillout for most of what I tried casting today. i'd blame the weather or humidity but I just lost the groove. Even tried adding another % of tin and no dice. Going to let it sit over night and try again in the morning.

[lablover]

Success !!!!!!

Wow, I finally got it. I gave her another try after removing the burrs from the alignment pin hole...Started to cast and wrinkles everywhere. Lower the pot temp 25 deg, still wrinkles but not as bad. Kept going, still wrinkles....Heck, lead is recyclable so reloaded the pot and kept going.

After about an hour or better I was getting frustrated and tired. Was ready to give up and said one more pour...AS I was pouring I realized I didn't get it dead center in the holes in the spru plate I figured great, the last cast and its gonna be real bad. NOPE, all 4 boolits came out looking like jewelry I swear. I thought to myself, for real..Heck, try it again and this time I hit the holes dead center...Wrinkles!! Hmmmm..Next pout I hit the holes but made sure the stream just hit the bevels in the holes first on the spru plate. JACKPOT... So a few hours later with pouring but making sure the stream of PB hit the bevel and not dead center in the hole I got a pile O BOOLITS I'd be proud to shoot.

I explained what I did to my Wife and she says..Oh, like poring a bear and not poring dead center in the glass..DUHHH.

All I can say is I was all ready to sell everything and just by my bullets from now on..I have a renewed vigor and will still continue to shop for yet another mold..Not because the Noe is bad but because I want more to cast...

I can't believe it was something that simple.

Was it because the PB was not venting going directly into the hole?

Heck, they even dropped out of the mold easier!

All I know is I will be up early tomorrow and have at it again. And yes, I wrote everything down

:drinks:

[OS OK]

ANOTHER RIDDLE? Why it worked that way I haven't a clue! If I suggested anything, I'd just be spitwadding...hell, you might have a poltergeist in that shop! :bigsmyl2:
You know I'm gonna follow this thread...I want to know whether or not that will repeat?

[Tom W.]

I've had days like that where nothing would go right. Surprisingly when I reached the end of my rope I sprayed the cavities with RemOil, cast about three or four more times and then everything came out fine... eerie......

[lablover]

ANOTHER RIDDLE? Why it worked that way I haven't a clue! If I suggested anything, I'd just be spitwadding...hell, you might have a poltergeist in that shop! :bigsmyl2:
You know I'm gonna follow this thread...I want to know whether or not that will repeat?

I had another go at 11 pm. Worked like a charm again. I think what it was is I wasn't letting the spru puddle bubble or flow over. Before I would stop the stream when I first saw the puddle, now I let it flow longer till I get this little burp or like lava bubbling out then I stop. Did a few hundred with very little rejects. I'm pretty happy

[runfiverun]

go back and read my posts on this thread I already explained it.

[lablover]

go back and read my posts on this thread I already explained it.

Yup, you sure did. Clearly it didn't sink in...LOL. What can I say, I was frantic and not in a good mood... I do appreciate the advice

[DerekP Houston]

go back and read my posts on this thread I already explained it.

Sometimes (at least for me) reading and doing are two separate things. I'm a better hands on learner.

[guicksylver]

I've seen that little volcano action going on before..not enough venting.....try loosening the sprue plate so that it swings closed with it's own weight....and then cast a couple dead center...I've found that NOE molds come with the sprue plate just a little too tight ...especially if you use sprue plate lube...it seals the air from escaping out between the top of the mold and sprue plate..you end up with round bases as well if it's too tight...some guys even relieve the upper edges of the mold ever so slightly to give it more venting and produce sharper bases...

[runfiverun]

yeah,,, sometimes you just have to see it for yourself :lol:
I have a mold here I am fidgeting with bit by bit the back cavity will leave a little swirl in the base if I fill it too quickly.
that's clearly a venting issue.
I worked over the plate and the scribed vent lines which fixed the front cavity.
I need to break the edges of the back cavity to allow more air to flow out of that cavity.