Ivory soap question

[Marlin Junky]

In percent terms, how much sodium stearate does a plain white bar of Ivory soap contain?

MJ

[catboat]

Not sure, off the top of my head.

I'm going to take a guess at what you are trying to do. Are you trying to use a "soap" to saponify a bullet lube? Saponification makes the natural lube (ie neatfoots/lanolin) harder, for higer melting points.

If this is where you were headed, then I will continue.

If I remember correctly, Ivory Soap USED to be a soap by definition (containing fatty acids), but the new formulation (changed years ago) does not contain fatty acids-so therefore it is not chemically "a soap". Since it doesn't contain fatty acids, it no longer can saponify your lube.

So, if this is where you are going, I believe the old clear amber bars of Fels-Naptha soap is still "soap" (fatty acid containing), and could be used in hardening lubes. Neutrogena may also be a "techincal" soap-and if so, may serve as a saponification agent (non reversable bonds, which increase melting point).

If this isn't where you were going, I just wasted my last 5 minutes of my life. Thats' ok, I was just reading the laptop in bed.

So, why do you need to know?

[13Echo]

Well Ivory Soap appears to be mostly saponified tallow and vegetable oils with water and a few other ingredients. I found this on the web: "Ivory Soap is made of both vegetable oils and animal fats. Two different kinds of vegetable oils are used in Ivory - coconut oil and palm kernel oil. We add a preservative, less than ½ of 1% of magnesium sulfate and sodium silicate, to keep the bar as white as its name.” Apparently there is also a trace of salt (NaCl) and some water. I believe commercial Sodium stearate is saponified animal fat as tallow is made up of large amounts of triglycerides of stearic acid. For your purposes treat the saponified tallow and vegetable oils as sodium stearate.

By the way with all the water in Ivory it will foam when added to hot wax or oil as the water boils.
Jerry Liles

[dromia]

Saponified?

[TCLouis]

Saponified: Adding a fat to a strong base (lye, sodium or Potassium Hydroxide) and it will react (saponification) to form a soap and acid and alcohol from the original base . . . If my memory serves me close to correct!

Glad I went back and checked the net I originally had the products of reaction incorrect!

[montana_charlie]

Saponified?
Plug the word into Google and you get this...
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Saponified&btnG=Google+Search

CM

[Marlin Junky]

Well Ivory Soap appears to be mostly saponified tallow and vegetable oils with water and a few other ingredients.

According to Wikipedia tallow is only 14% Stearic Acid... I thought it was much higher than 14%. Even if Ivory was 100% saponified tallow (which it's not because it needs some saponified vegetable oil to make it lather) I wouldn't consider it a good source of Sodium Stearate anymore and I will not use it again when making lubes.

Thanks,
MJ

[13Echo]

Ivory soap is an excellent source of saponified fatty acids which have been very successful in bullet lubes for a long, long time. I doubt that pure sodium stearate will result in a better bullet lube than one made with Ivory or other such soap. After all, all sodium stearate is is soap. I even suspect the variety of saponified fatty acids in the usual soap may even be superior for our use. No proof of this, just a hunch. At any rate it will be interesting to see how your lubes turn out. Please keep us posted.

Jerry Liles

[Marlin Junky]

II doubt that pure sodium stearate will result in a better bullet lube than one made with Ivory or other such soap.
Jerry Liles

One half ounce of pure Sodium Stearate raises the melting point of beeswax based lube (about a pound of beeswax) approximately 15F. An ounce of Ivory will barely raise the melting point of the same lube (w/o the Sodium Stearate) at all.

MJ

[Bodine]

Another benefit of using pure sodium stearate is the foaming when you stir it goes away. I use roughly 4 % when I cook up a batch to raise the melting point 30 degrees f..
I used to use Ivory and the foaming was problematic.
I bought 5 lbs for something like $5.00 and have never looked back. You have to use the good stuff though, triple pressed palm stearate seems to work the best. The plant based stearates are better than the anmial based sterines.
It also aids in removal from the mold tubes.

[HABCAN]

For decades I have fluxed smelts and melts with a dab or two of paraffin wax, igniting the fumes. This method still left the metal somewhat contaminated, but I knew no other way. IIRC someone on one of the threads here said Ivory Soap worked well as a flux for our casting. WTH, why not try it? Six bars cost less than $2, and that would be a LOT of smelts/melts.

Result? VERY clean metal, with NO smoke, and the minimal smell is like hot laundry from the dryer. I will continue its use for this purpose, as my boolit casting setup is indoors in the 'den' (read: Loading Room) under the open window.

Downside? The resulting brown goo sticks to your skimmer. However, when cooled it chips off fairly easily into the trash.

Next smelting session out in the (open) garage I will try a great lump for fluxing/cleaning raw WW's when pouring ingots, assuming it will work equally well for that.

My sincere thanks to whoever posted this hint!

[Marlin Junky]

...triple pressed palm stearate seems to work the best.

Can you provide links to sources?



The plant based stearates are better than the anmial based sterines.
I don't know what you're talking about here... Sodium Stearate is the product of reacting Stearic Acid and NaOH.

MJ

[catboat]

I may be wrong, but I thought Ivory soap changed the formulation of the Ivory soap bar (or maybe it was the Ivory soap flakes) a few years ago. I thought they eliminated fatty acids from it, therefore, by definition is technically no longer a "soap" (soaps contain fatty acids).

I used to work in the paper chemicals business, including deinking plants. We did quite a bit of work optimizing the deinking chemicals for each recycle plant. The "deinking chemical" contained various ingredients, sometimes fatty acids, sometime (more often) synthetic surfactacts, foaming agent, and other goodies. If you used a fatty acid containing deinking aid (used in a floatation cell, which collected released ink to the surface for remove/separation), you needed to have a water hardness (calcium) of ~ 125ppm Ca++ to react with the fatty acids.

It was during one of these projects that I seem to remember Ivory soap reformulated their "soap," which is why it caught my attention.

Anyone know for sure?

Fels-naptha laundry soap is a true "soap" (fatty acids). I believe Neutragena is also a "soap." Just because something has a surfactant, and a foaming agent does not make it "soap." Murphy's oil may be a fatty acid containing soap.

It's been awhile, so my memory may be off. I have a mind like a steel trap, it's old and rusty.

[454PB]

HABCAN, I don't know how you use Ivory for flux, but I've used it when I have a chance for some ventilation. I normally use Marvelux or the Frankford Arsenal equivalent.

I use Ivory soap in the shower, so I save some of the bar ends (what I used to throw away). After they are thoroughly dry, I put them in a quart freezer bag and work it over with a mallet. The result is a fine dust. I put a half teaspoon on the melt and stir well. I've seen no "brown goo", only dark grey oxidation and dirt. However, I usually bottom pour. It does produce a mildly acrid smoke, but nothing like the volume of smoke from using boolit lube or wax.

[HABCAN]

454PB, TX, I'll try a little bar-bashing and doing it your way.