Want to try filler with PB

[RU shooter]

But I need some advice on the how to's of it .I am going to be shooting a 220 gr plain base boolit in the 30-06 and want to use the c.o.w filler to protect the base.I'm not trying for warp factor speeds here but something in the range of 1500-1700 fps.
So how do I do it exactly ? I did a search on filler and didnt really find any simple instructions on its use in a bottle necked case. From what I did read one way is to add your powder then use a small pinch of dacron and then fill the rest of the case with the filler ? Or do I just add the filler right on top of the powder and fill to it will be slightly compressed by the boolit? Or HOW?
I have read about the pressure increase with the use of fillers and know to start low and work up ,I want to try to use 3031 or 4895 as I have alot of, it are these two suitable for this use? What would be a safe start load with each Also could you use ball powders like Ramshots TAC (aka) fast lot of H335 in this roll.Or would faster powders be better?

Thanks,Tim

[35remington]

I'd feel more comfortable with you using something other than COW in a bottlenecked case.

I would suggest shotshell buffer or dacron.

Make sure both take the airspace up completely between powder and bullet. Pre settle the shotshell buffer slightly and compress it with the bullet, so buffer and powder do not mix.

For the velocities you envision I'd prefer 2400, 4759, 4198 or similiar for around 1500 fps. Once you get past that velocity accuracy is more difficult to attain with a plainbase bullet, even with filler. You can give the slower powders a try but I wouldn't go much slower than the powders you've mentioned.

Just comments from my own experience with same.

Incidentally, the dacron does not necessarily protect the base of the bullet from the impact of powder granules but it does seriously reduce gascutting while orienting the powder in the case the same way every time. It is worth trying, but try your loads without filler as well, especially with 4198 as it seems to respond well to plainbase bullets at around 1500. No sense using what you don't need, but shooting plainbase at the speeds you're contemplating is a bit of postgraduate work.

[mooman76]

I'm not a big fan of COW either but +1 what 35Remington said. Also try to use as even amount as you can and concider the weight of your filler to the total weight of the projectile.

[curator]

COW will work but you should go carefully. Plastic shot buffer is superior to cream of wheat in that it "flows" better in a bottleneck case. When using filler for high PB velocity I found that slower powders usually work better. I have had good results with the .30-06 using Reloder 7 and IMR4198 and COW up to the bullet base. Velocities up to 1800 fps are possible with good accuracy of you have a good barrel, and hard bullet (BHN22+) of the correct size and shape. Work up all loads with filler and watch for pressure signs. Check your fired cases for COW stuck to the inside of the shoulder.

[runfiverun]

cow is not what i would use in a bottleneck case, in a straightwalled case i would consider it's use.
i prefer either dacron or dryer lint as a case filler.
must fill the case and touch both powder and boolit..

[longbow]

I've used COW in .303 British with no problems so far.

I use a dipper to fill the case to just above the bottom of the neck then seat the bullet to slightly compress the filler onto the powder.

I have used this method with both fast (Unique) and fairly slow powders (IMR 4064) with PB bullets by starting with a light load and working up the amount of powder and down the amount of filler.

Mostly I tried this to protect the PB bullet base to reduce leading and also to try pushing them a little faster. I have had successes in eliminating leading and improved accuracy with some loads and failures with some loads showing poor or at least no improvement in accuracy.

So far no problems with pressure or chamber ringing. 30-06 is a little larger volume case and with a slightly sharper shoulder but with slow powders you will have a near full case anyway so not a lot of filler. Shotgun buffer is likely a better choice than COW but if you start with a low pressure cast bullet load for the powder you want to use and top up the case with filler directly on top of the powder then you should be safe.

Here is a link that says it better than I can: http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/castfiller/index.asp

David Southall also has a good article on cast bullets and fillers here: http://www.303british.com/id37.html

There are pros and cons as well as the safety issues to using fillers and you will get lots of opinions about their use. I think they have a purpose and will continue using them where I think they have a benefit.

Longbow

[runfiverun]

the 303 is a different story if you look at it's case design it was origionally a b/p
design.
the reason you don't see b/p designs with bottle necks is that.
just the addition of the bottle neck raised the pressures 2000 psi or more.
and gave no added benefits, it was simpler to just add case length. or girth.

[longbow]

R5R:

Actually there are quite a number of BP cartridges with bottleneck design. Some of the more pronounced bottlenecks are:

- .40-50 Sharps necked
- .40-70 Sharps necked
- .40-90 Bullard
- .44-77 Sharps
- .44-90 Sharps necked
- .43 Spanish Mauser
- .577x.450

The .303 was originally a BP cartridge but it is a necked cartridge though certainly it has a more tapered body and less neck transition than a .30-06.

Also, the article in surplusrifle.com refers to a .308 which has an even steeper neck angle than .30-06. More importantly, RU shooter asked if he could use filler in a .30-06 and I think the answer is yes as long as he works up loads carefully.

Longbow

[Piet]

Adrian Pitfield wrote several articles about the use of filler with CB in a German magazine. The link to his website: http://www.riflebulletcaster.com/index.php
Unfortunately it is in German, but you will understand the load data.
He had a lot of loads tested by DEVA you can find the results on his website.
He uses 60% of the published load of N140 (as a starting load) and the rest filler. It gave good results with 7.5x54 MAS.

[w30wcf]

R U Shooter,
A friend used 28 grs. of RL7 in his .30-06 then filled the case full of polyethylene shot buffer and seated a 210 gr. cast bullet. Velocity was just shy of 2,000 f.p.s. and accuracy was excellent. He shot a few thousand of this recipe with nary a problem.

Substituting 28 grs. of 3031 or 4895 for the RL7, should bring you into your desired velocity range.

w30wcf

[Wayne Smith]

If you use anything other than pillow batting add the weight of the filler to the weight of the bullet. This is the weight of your projectile and figure your powder charges on this weight, not just the boolit weight.

[45 2.1]

Besides the weight of the filler, you must consider that the filler also reduces the available case capacity. When you use filler, you are essentially shooting a smaller case. Load accordingly..........

[runfiverun]

the long answer is yes but i still say no to the cow in a bottleneck..
it is really hard to cram a 420 slug down a 308 neck if that stuff happens to harden.

longbow: those are all pretty good cases like the 44-77 but they came later
when the metalurgy was able to make use of the higher pressures.
much like the 8mauser and 8 lebel did by changing from 11mm to take advantage of
smokeless powder.
and the stronger actions being introduced.

[jahela]

the long answer is yes but i still say no to the cow in a bottleneck..
it is really hard to cram a 420 slug down a 308 neck if that stuff happens to harden.

That's exactly what I thought too. I go the way taking more grains of a slower powder.
Currently I change from N140 to N150 which is close to the IMR4350 (.308Win and 6,5x55). For the 30-06 I would go another step to the 4831. It should work all the more because RU shooter Tim mentioned the 220gr-bullet.

Dirk

[RU shooter]

Well it seems the majority of you guys are against the COW in the 30-06 So I shall search for some shot buffer and try some other recomended methods, On another note I have a big bag full of ground corn cob that was sold as blasting media, a finer grind than your brass tumbling cob basicly looks like tan sand , any chance this would be suitable in my application I know its alot lighter in weight compaired to COW? Thanks ,Tim

[Scrounger]

What makes you think the load won't work just fine without any filler? I'd dang sure try it before going to all that trouble. I used to shoot cast in my .270 and it shot great without filler. At that velocity you're not going to have any problems.

[longbow]

Scrounger has a very good point here. The velocity you are looking at is pretty mild so you may not even need protection for the base of the bullet.

I started with the filler because I was trying for higher velocity in the neighbourhood of 1800 to 2000 FPS with PB bullets and was getting some leading with the heavier loads.

If you haven't tried without filler you should do that first. As Scrounger points out, it may work just fine. If not and you get leading then you can look at other options.

Longbow

[runfiverun]

a powder like unique or 2400 doesn't need a filler.
and 15-1600 should be pretty easy with them and no fuss.
i just would go the other route if they don't work.

[Bass Ackward]

I assume that this bullet seats too deeply to use a standard wad.

I think that your efforts are going to be balanced out with practicality. Sometimes there is just a case to be made for a GC or a lighter slug that will permit a standard card wad.

If you want to run those velocities, then I say the check can turn out to be the cheaper, less time consuming, and possibly the safer option.

[RU shooter]

I assume that this bullet seats too deeply to use a standard wad.

I think that your efforts are going to be balanced out with practicality. Sometimes there is just a case to be made for a GC or a lighter slug that will permit a standard card wad.

If you want to run those velocities, then I say the check can turn out to be the cheaper, less time consuming, and possibly the safer option.
Yes your correct way to deep for a card ,about 3/16 of the boolit base is below the bottom of the case neck.Boolit is a 311290 with the GC shank bored out I cast my first boolits with this fairly hard 3:1 WW to lino.
Thanks for the help all ,Due to plain old inexperience I just didnt know what a PB boolit will handle in the vel. dept. I'm all for the keeping it simple If it will work with nothing added all the better. Now it give it a try.

Tim

[Char-Gar]

The problem with COW, corn, coffee and other plant materials for fillers is they can absorb moisture and harden into a cake. In a straight case, this does not present a problem, but in a bottle neck case, it can raise pressures enough to be a concern.

when I use a filler, I choose Precision Shotshell Buffer (PSB). I would not use this with stick powders as the buffer can mix with the powder.

Mostly I use 2400, 4759 and the like which do not require a filler.

Another filler worth considering is black powder...yes black powder. It has large kernels and wont mix with powder, compresses well, combusts 100% and at the amounts uses does not make a significant change in the pressure. The main charge of powder cleans BP residue out.

[Molly]

Hi fellows,

As the originator of COW loads, my opinion may have some validity here: I've used COW in all sizes and shapes of cases up to the Magnums, with no trouble at all. They were initially developed when I was playing with a 577/450. Know anything necked more heavily than that? I initially filled all the unused space in the case with COW. This worked, but raised pressures. So I went to filling the bottleneck cases with Dacron (Pillow Fluff) to the bottom of the shoulder, and filling the rest of the case with COW. This worked just as well, and had little or no effect on pressures. In later work, I found that this could also be used on 'as cast' bullets at velocities up to at least 2700 fps with decent accuracy and no leading. "As cast" means no sizing, no lube, no gas checks. Just seat them as they come out of the mold. You can size if the neck of the loaded round is too big for chambering, but otherwise it's a waste of time.

Anyone wanting to ask questions or discuss, give me a PM.

[REDTAIL]

IN LOADING MY 44 MAG & SPECIAL LOADS i have used and had sucess with Dacron pillow stuffing as a filler, this stuff can be bought in wally world sewing dept,it works well, i have read stuff in the past that not using too little or to much of this stuffing can cause a ringing in the gun when fired, I myself have never had this happen to me with any of my made up loads