Cast boolit consistently in rifles with hard VS soft lead

[Tripplebeards]

I have been doing reading here that harder BH will normally shoot more accurate at higher rifle velocities. I shot a 1.250" group at a 100 yards with a WQ boolit BH of 15. I tried the same load with an AC boolit with a BH of 13.4 and shot a 1.190" group. So my softer boolit was more consistent.

The load was a 35.5g load of H110 out of my Ruger American 450 bushmaster using a Lee 310 with a GC.

i would assume the softer boolit expanded better to grab more grooves of the rifling to make it more consistent?

Well, my AC boolit has hardened to 14.3 BH so we will see if groups open or stay the same.

[Scharfschuetze]

Sounds like you have an accurate rifle and given the 450 Bushmaster's intended purpose, those soft bullets should work well on game animals too.

How many shots in your groups?

It sounds like you're onto a good load and bullet for that rifle.

[Rcmaveric]

I tend to think those are rules of thumb. All the science stuff gives us a starting point to experiment with to see what the riffle likes and what it will perform with. It is possible to strip the riffling in various ways. I can achieve SUB moa groups but it was done through meticoulsy sorting case and bullets. Then carefully weighing each charge. Consistent bullet seating and neck tension. I also load with a soft bullet. .270 win with 25.3 grains of Reloader 7 for 2000 fps. I get about 1 inch at 100 yards. Doing the above tightens it up a lot. But I am lazy and not after braging rights. So moa accuracy and minute of a deer is more of my goal.

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[Ateam]

A difference of .06 tells you almost nothing with just two groups. If you came to this number by averaging say 100 groups, then you would have something to work off of.

[Tripplebeards]

I tend to think those are rules of thumb. All the science stuff gives us a starting point to experiment with to see what the riffle likes and what it will perform with. It is possible to strip the riffling in various ways. I can achieve SUB moa groups but it was done through meticoulsy sorting case and bullets. Then carefully weighing each charge. Consistent bullet seating and neck tension. I also load with a soft bullet. .270 win with 25.3 grains of Reloader 7 for 2000 fps. I get about 1 inch at 100 yards. Doing the above tightens it up a lot. But I am lazy and not after braging rights. So moa accuracy and minute of a deer is more of my goal.

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I'm doing about the same. Boolits weigh 1 grain or less of each other...closer to a half. I measure each powder charge, all brass is trimmed to same length after every firing, and taper crimped at .474".

My goal is to be MOA or less. I just loaded up some more AC boolits with a new powder...lil gun. We will see if it tightens up my grouping.

Three shot groups.

AC...
201896


WQ...

201897


I'm guessing the load is 1900-2000fps. I would have thought the harder boolit would have made a tighter group.

[waco]

You always need to try and match your alloys strength (hardness) to the pressure of your intended loads. There has been a lot written about this by people who can explain it a lot better than I can.http://www.lasc.us/TaylorBulletWeakEnough.htm
Read up a bit here. This may help you.
This Lee manual also has some very good info on matching your alloys strength to the pressures you are looking to run.
https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/639649/lee-modern-reloading-2nd-edition-revised-reloading-manual
Hope this was useful to you.
Waco

[Tom W.]

Sorry to be asking, but isn't the 310 gr boolit a .44 cal boolit, and the .450 Bushmaster a .45 cal? What am I missing here? I'm confused, but it isn't the first time.......

[waco]

Probably using the Lee C452-300-RF
It looks just like the 44 version and I'm guessing drops at around 310gr?
Dunno.....

[Tripplebeards]

Lee .452 300 RF, 300g mold. PC GC weight is 315g casted with COWW & 2% pewter

201898

[Tom W.]

Thanks! I was scratching the baldness of my head. I love the .44 cal model. It's really accurate from my SRH.

[Tripplebeards]

You always need to try and match your alloys strength (hardness) to the pressure of your intended loads. There has been a lot written about this by people who can explain it a lot better than I can.http://www.lasc.us/TaylorBulletWeakEnough.htm
Read up a bit here. This may help you.
This Lee manual also has some very good info on matching your alloys strength to the pressures you are looking to run.
https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/639649/lee-modern-reloading-2nd-edition-revised-reloading-manual
Hope this was useful to you.
Waco

Thanks, read the info and it says 17BH for 1900fps. My BH of my best group was 13.4 at this velocity or a little faster. I would assume PC and GCing my boolit is why I am able to push it faster with good accuracy? What I don't understand is why a softer boolit groups better than a harder one at velocities recommend for a harder alloy than either of my boolits used for testing. If my groups are opening up as I gain hardness I would assume if I tried a 17-20 BH my groups would open more? Guess I just have to Experiment

[Thumbcocker]

Anyone orient boolits? Frank Marshall spoke highly of it.

[kungfustyle]

Glad you found a load that your gun likes, count it as a blessing that it shoots multiple hardness with accuracy. With other guns you can play with hardness to get the gun to shoot better. I have a Mauser that loves a boolit in the 15 to 18 range at the speed I run them (2100fps). Trick is to fine tune the hardness with the pressure. Sometimes you need to be a mad scientist to find the sweet spot and what works for one may or may not work for another. Like I said, count your blessings.

[Ateam]

I do in my smokeless muzzle loader, never occurred to try it in a cartridge gun though.


Anyone orient boolits? Frank Marshall spoke highly of it.

[Larry Gibson]

Unless you shoot ten 3 shot groups with each, comparing group size ES, SD and average of one to the other one group attempting a guess at which is best is meaningless. Groups of just 3 shots are meaningless in your example, specially with that small of a difference.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

You have a good start to testing that load.
Did you shoot more than those two groups?
If so, did you average the group size of all the groups?

Myself, I like to shoot groups with more shoots per group.
I like to use 5 shots for 'rough' testing...that is getting a rough idea, ie: first ladder test,
but I prefer 10 shot groups when I'm getting down to the nitty gritty...especially if I was testing for something specific, like how different alloy hardnesses are performing.

[Tripplebeards]

I worked H110 up and down in .5 increments from 27g to 40g and shot one time in three shot groups. Only had a hundred pieces of brass so I covered as much ground as I could for testing. Then in round two I tried a few more groups up and Down in .2g from my most accurate load and also tried one load with a AC boolit in my most accurate powder charge. These were the 2 tightest groups I received. If you check my 1st and 2nd time to the range posts with cast boolits and the 450 bushmaster you can see my results. I listed all my groups with each charge. I didn't check my action screws durring testing and found out they came loose some time durring my first shooting session which explains some of the large groups out of the clear blue. Guessing I tried approx 35 different powder charges last week.

I already have 19 more loads to try with the same AC boolit loaded with lil gun. I will head to the range next week and post whether this powder did better or worse.

I agree there is not that much of a difference between the measurement of the two groups and realistically I would say they probably shoot close the same if I loaded up a bunch of each and tested again. Just trying to make sense of why all the reading I've done state harder boolits are more accurate when my softer shows different. I would assume this rifle can shoot a range of BH the same as other posters have stated.

[Tripplebeards]

I'm courious to see if my most accurate load with lil gun will be at the same velocity as my best group with H110.

Have you booliteers found that cast boolits are more accurate at a specific velocity or is the powder chosen a bigger factor?

What I'm asking is if my most accurate load with 35.5g H110 leaves my muzzle at 2000fps will another powder charge, say 33.5g of lil gun That leaves my muzzle at the same 2000 fps velocity will give me the most accurate results for the new powder tried? Im wondering if a boolit itself is more accurate at a specific speed with a certain twist or if it's up to the proifiency of the powder burn?

[runfiverun]

someone is finally asking some real questions.
I'm gonna keep an eye on this thread......:coffee:

[Rcmaveric]

I don't think its a speed limit. More like an RPM limit. I want to experiment with a different barrel and twist rate. Different powders and seating depths let us control pressures. I think RPM is now my limiting factor. Pressures were why I couldn't get over 1650 fps, taking my bullets out of the lands greatly dropped pressures. Now I think its RPM is my limiting factor.

[runfiverun]

well if you think that you might as well go ahead and quit then.

[OS OK]

I'm courious to see if my most accurate load with lil gun will be at the same velocity as my best group with H110.

Have you booliteers found that cast boolits are more accurate at a specific velocity or is the powder chosen a bigger factor?

What I'm asking is if my most accurate load with 35.5g H110 leaves my muzzle at 2000fps will another powder charge, say 33.5g of lil gun That leaves my muzzle at the same 2000 fps velocity will give me the most accurate results for the new powder tried? Im wondering if a boolit itself is more accurate at a specific speed with a certain twist or if it's up to the proifiency of the powder burn?

I think it's a combination of both, adequate spin to keep it on trajectory but not so much that the down leg portion prevents it from coming in nose first, nose down toward target. Overspinning I think they want to remain level on trajectory and when they cut paper they appear to be keyholing to some extent.
I think using the slowest power possible with a heavy weight for example...is to try to accelerate the cast as gently as possible...if you can even equate or imagine anything in the barrel as being gentle. Bringing the cast up in speed slower as it engraves helps prevent skidding that might widen the land engraving and potientially allowing gassing.
I think our PC coatings not only provide lubrication but also allow us to shoot a softer cast than we could shoot if we were greasing...especially the plain base cast that might vaporize from an extremely hot powder and deposit Pb in compensators or silencers.

[GhostHawk]

Rcmaveric I suspect your onto something sir.

[Tripplebeards]

I don't think its a speed limit. More like an RPM limit. I want to experiment with a different barrel and twist rate. Different powders and seating depths let us control pressures. I think RPM is now my limiting factor. Pressures were why I couldn't get over 1650 fps, taking my bullets out of the lands greatly dropped pressures. Now I think its RPM is my limiting factor.

Was reading about that in the Lee book I bought yesterday Waco recommended. But your boolit has to be pushed to a specific velocity to obtain RPMs so I think it is hand in hand? So if two boolits pushed with two different powders at the the same speed would create the same RPM...would they not?

[jmort]

someone is finally asking some real questions.
I'm gonna keep an eye on this thread......:coffee:

Yes indeed. I love theory.

[runfiverun]

rpm is just the barrel spinning the bullet.
1-10 is 1-10 all the way to the paper.
I get instability with a 1-7 if I go too slow.