Bullet siszing question

[tomf52]

Have a .32 H&R Mag Marlin Cowboy that refuses to shoot cast bullets. Does very well with jacketed. So far everything I have put through it has been .0005 to .0015 oversize. That's .313 or .314 bullets through a barrel that slugs at .3125. I now have an RCBS 90 gr RNFP that drops the bullets st .3155 to .316. Can I safely fire these through the rifle without sizing them or are they too big? I would like to try this much larger bullet to see if it helps the dismal performance I have been experiencing so far. Bullets are air cooled wheel weights, lube has been Lee Tumble Lube. Thanks for any help you can give, Tom.

[BABore]

See if the boolit will just slip into a fired case. The case should be one that is once fired with a full pressure load. You might have to flare the case mouth a bit if the crimped edge interferes. This will determine the largest boolit size that you can safely chamber and fire. If the boolit has a front band, load up a dummy and see if it will chamber. Your bbl makes an excellent sizing die. Drop back your max load and work back up.

Most Marlin 45-70's and 450's will accept a 0.462 boolit. That's what I shoot in my 0.459 groove diameter rifle.

[KCSO]

Gee my Marlin Cowboy runs 310 on the nose and shoots cast like a house afire. Even in 32 S and W Brass the gun won't shoot over 1" at 25 yards and with the right loads shoots into that same 1" at 50. Are you sure you have all the jacket fouling out and the leading gone? I would strip out the boolt and claen and lap it with JB's and try it again.

[tomf52]

KCSO - Bought this gun new and from the day I bought it it will not shoot lead. Get 1 in groups at fifty yards with jacketed and ten inch groups with lead. Tried two different bullets and every conceivable powder charge, alloy, and two different lubes. Going nuts with this rifle. Trust me, the barrel is clean.

[JeffinNZ]

We need more info on your load and alloy. Could be you are pushing the alloy to hard.

Is your barrel clear of all jacketed fouling?

Have you varied the seating depth? My .32-20 is very fussy about seating depth. If the bullets engage the groups open up.

[Doc Highwall]

Another thing to know is what size is your expander. Shoving a boolit that is more then .0015 bigger then the inside of the case with a soft alloy causes it to be re-sized by the case making it now smaller then the throat diameter. I find that the expander should be approximately .001 smaller then the diameter of the boolit that you are going to seat into the case. It could be that your expander was made for condom bullets, and is under size for your cast boolits.

[tomf52]

JeffinNZ - Bullet material is wheel weight, air cooled. Powder is Bullseye, have tried from 3.0 to 4.0 grains. Have tried no crimp to Lee FCD. Nothing, I mean nothing makes a difference in this rifle. Jacketed will give me 1 1/2" at fifty yards. Cast will go from 5 of ten rounds hitting a 2' X 4' backer board to at best a ten inch goup. CCI 500 primers. I have never been so disgusted with a firearm. Been fighting with this for eight months now.

[tomf52]

Doc Highwall - Very good thought. Never entered my mind at all. I'll take the die apart and measure the expander. Thank you, Tom.

[Newtire]

JeffinNZ - Bullet material is wheel weight, air cooled. Powder is Bullseye, have tried from 3.0 to 4.0 grains. Have tried no crimp to Lee FCD. Nothing, I mean nothing makes a difference in this rifle. Jacketed will give me 1 1/2" at fifty yards. Cast will go from 5 of ten rounds hitting a 2' X 4' backer board to at best a ten inch goup. CCI 500 primers. I have never been so disgusted with a firearm. Been fighting with this for eight months now.

4.0 gr. Bullseye sounds a trifle warm. Change that to 4.0 gr. Unique & try it maybe.

[docone31]

Is it Ballard rifled, or Micro-Groove?
That might make a difference with cast.

[JeffinNZ]

Yeap, agree with Newtire. Try more of a slower powder. Sounds like you are pushing the alloy a bit hard.

[Scrounger]

Could be wrong but I think all the .32 calibers are Ballard. Microgroove, all other factors being equal, will generally shoot as accurately as Ballard, but in my opinion, fit (bullet diameter) is much more critical in Microgroove than it is in Ballard. Your powder choice is the problem, Bullseye will work here just about as well as H4831 would. You need to switch to a powder slower than Unique but no slower than H110; Herco or Blue Dot would be good choices and don't load them too light, stay in the middle to upper part of the powders published loading data. Squib loads will probably never group well. There is very little recoil at maximum loads in this caliber. If you must have minimum recoil for some reason, I'd suggest buying a Marlin 39A and shooting .22 Shorts in it.

[tomf52]

Newtire - 4.0 was tried but I ran the gammut (sp?) from 3.0 up in .1 increments and all failed to produce.

Docone31 - It is Ballard. A very shallow Ballard in my opinion, but Ballard. My 1894C in .357 Microgroove is a tack driver with lead. Go figure?

Jeffin NZ - Powder change a definite path to follow now.

Scrounger - Think I might try some Herco.

Thank you all for your help. This has been a very frustrating experience but I'm determined to win this battle. Love this little rifle. will let you know if I get successful.

[docone31]

Just out of curiosity, have you considered water quenching the wheel weight castings?
I would also go with Blue Dot.
That might make your first sizing choices valid.
My 1894C was the funnest rifle I ever had. It was almost like a .22. It was a real shooter.
I would test some real full house loads with that puppy.
I wonder about water quenching as it does well with jacketed.
Cast some and give it a try. Do some groups of 20. Some unquenched, some quenched.
I have chased my tail on more than one occasion. I found sometimes it is best to toss the whole thing, get radical, and go for it. That way, at least you will have a baseline and can go from there.

[Newtire]

You might try some Hs-6, AA#7 or even slower still, some AA#9. I have had great luck with those.

[Bret4207]

You need a slower powder and check your case lengths. Mine tend to measure all over the place after first and second firing. Trim to shortest and go from there.

[44man]

I have the same problem with my .44 Marlin with the Ballard rifling. However mine shoots great at 50 yd's but beyond that it can go anywhere. My problem is the 1 in 38 twist but it made me measure and lap the bore.
I found my rifling is only .003" deep which is the same as the micro groove. By reducing the number of lands and grooves to call it "Ballard" has just reduced boolit grip. I really think the micro groove handles cast better.
Marlin has made many mistakes, shallow rifling and wrong twist rates on some calibers. None of the modern guns shoot like the Marlins of old. I had original 25-20's and 32-20's, Marlins and Winchesters. Some would shoot 3/4", 100 yd groups with cast and open sights. Barrels were great and even pitted ones were deadly accurate.
The one I miss the most is the Marlin 39 Mountie. The thing was as accurate as a model 52.
Driving cast with fast powder will just make the boolit skid and skip rifling, ruining it before it gets a bite on the shallow grooves.
Skidding will reduce the boolit diameter and let gas escape.

[Rowdy]

There’s lots of good info here…
I’ve been shooting an 1894 CB 32 Mag for the last 6mo, and the last 2mo in Ranch Dogs Postal Match. It was a real challenge to get it to shoot cast well. My barrel slugs .3122” after firelapping.
Bullets I’ve tried- Lee 90gr SWC lubed using LLA sized .314” it’s a POS… 118gr Saeco #322 lubed LBT soft blue sized .314 a friend sent me, these were ACWW, a good bullet…120gr BTB sized .314, very good…

I’m currently shooting a 315-130 LBT-C ; they fall at 130gr and .3155” using WW + a little tin, lubed w/LBT soft blue, I’ve shot them as cast and sized .315” and can not see any difference. I WQ all my bullets, just too lazy to keep everything labeled.

7.6gr of 2400 will give 1360fps and shoot into a .5”- 5 shot group at 50yds from the bench using iron sights. I’d like to cut that in half so a powder change will be next, going to try the new 410 just for kicks…

[tomf52]

Docone31 - I was sticking to the "big and soft" concept but after reading 44 Man's post I am going to try some water quenched. His take on the "Ballard" rifling in this gun is 100% paralell to my thinking.

44 Man - I couldn't agree more with your take on the Marlin "Ballard" rifling. It looks like Microgroove but with fewer lands. I'll bet Microgroove as we know it would have shot lead like a dream in this gun. I'm going to put a few down the pipe as they come out of the mold at .316 air cooled and water cooled and see what happens.

Bret 4207 - Cases all trimmed with Lee trimmer to about .007 under max OAL

Rowdy - +1 on the Lee 90 gr SWC TL being a ***. Now have a RCBS 90 gr RNFP .314 which actually drops them out around .316. Will try these unsized. Have been sizing them to .313. Maybe a little too small with that weird rifling.

Thank you all for your great help. It leaves me with some more things to try. Come hell or high water I'll get this thing to shoot!

[Newtire]

The one I miss the most is the Marlin 39 Mountie. The thing was as accurate as a model 52.


Iknow a guy with a Marlin 39 who lost that bet to my M52! Sometimes ya get lucky huh?

[44man]

Iknow a guy with a Marlin 39 who lost that bet to my M52! Sometimes ya get lucky huh?
I loved both and miss them dearly. Both wonderful guns.