Need .44 Magnum Load Advice [Archive]

trickg

08-01-2008, 11:06 AM

Hey guys - as the thread is titled, I'm looking for some advice on how to reload for a S&W .44 Magnum. Here's the score:

This S&W was made in 1956, purchased brand new by my father in that year, and has digested A LOT of heavy loads in its time. Dad was from the Elmer Keith school of sixguns and reloading and at one point said to me, "there was a time in my life where the harder it kicked, the better I liked it." I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Dad probably reloaded heavy with 2400.

Given the circumstances, my thought is that it's probably no longer safe to load it up with anything that would be considered heavy, but I wanted to appeal to the knowledge base of the forum.

Yesterday I bought a box of 500 hard cast 240 grain RN flat points, and I wanted to know if anyone had a good moderate pet load for a 240 gr cast bullet w/o gas checks.

All replies are welcome, and especially in regard to advice about what my revolver can handle due to its age and past usage.

trickg

08-01-2008, 11:54 AM

Bump - hello? Anyone have advice on this for me?

BABore

08-01-2008, 12:15 PM

trickg

08-01-2008, 12:18 PM

8.5 to 9.5 grs of Unique and a standard primer. I use CCI 300's

Your accuracy will be very dependent on if the "hard cast" boolits fit your gun's cylinder throats. Generally, purchased "hard cast" are too hard and have crappy hard lube on them. Best of luck.
I don't have any standard primers - I have plenty of magnum primers though and I have been using those with my .45 ACP loads with no issues. I'm a little leery of using Unique, mainly because it burns a bit dirtier than some other powders, but I know that Dad used it quite a bit.

The bullets are supposed to be cast and sized to .429 - that's standard .44 Magnum diameter as far as I know.

What about the wear on the gun - is that something I should be concerned about?

wonderwolf

08-01-2008, 12:19 PM

Unless the cylinder is wiggling around alot or your getting a lot of lead spray out the sides I wouldn't feel the least bit guilty about running full fledged elmer keith loads through it again.

My fav plinking load is 10gr of unique with a keith 429421 240gr boolit (good moderate load). I have not dated any of my 3 S&W 29's but I know they are older than me. I've run Lots of heavy loads through all of them with no guilt or safety risk. True S&W's are not as Robust as rugers but they are not exactly fragile either. With 2400 18-20gr is a nice all around load. You could go much lower if you wanted to and slightly higher as well.

I have lots of .44 mid level loads I've worked up for indoor shooting. But my notebook is at home. I'll take a looksee and get back to you on additional loads.

What barrel length is your 29? Pics?

trickg

08-01-2008, 01:39 PM

What barrel length is your 29? Pics?
It's still pretty tight considering it's age. Then again, it isn't like Dad shot it exclusively - he had plenty of other guns to choose from and the wear on it is more in the terms of cosmetic holster wear from carrying (dad was a small town police officer) than mechanical wear.

The barrel length is 5.5" (Might be a full 6" - I'll have to check." but I don't have any pictures of it. I may have to take some pics of my guns and get them posted.

Kraschenbirn

08-01-2008, 02:31 PM

For a "moderate load" with those 240 gr SWCs, try 9.5 gr of Herco. Moves a 246 gr RN at a bit over 900 fps from my OM Vaquero and wil consitentlyl group into 2" @ 25 yds (if I'm having a good day).

Bill

trickg

08-01-2008, 03:29 PM

So based on some of the posts I have seen, what are the main powders I should be looking at? Right now we have:

Unique - a time tested and proven powder for all manner of pistol loads (might be the way to go for a middle of the road load)
Herco - I don't know much about Herco - it's worth doing some reading
2400 - This is definitely a magnum powder, but I could reduce the charge somewhat
231 - Seems like a pretty good all around pistol powder
Bullseye - I haven't seen too much about this powder in regard to the .44 Magnum

I have a big ol' jug of Bullseye - 4 pounds of it, but in light of some of the things I have read, I'm not sure it's the right powder to use and I'll probably pick up something else.

Out of curiosity, which powders are cleaner burning?

Heavy lead

08-01-2008, 04:32 PM

Herco would be fine too. It's a hair slower.
I'd throw those hard cast bullits away, or melt them, recast them and shoot them in the 45 acp. They're not worthy of the fine old Smith, and you'll just lead it up in two shots, the hard bullet won't obturate, you'll get gas cutting on the base because of it, and the powder won't burn correctly and will be dirty, I know this from experience before I started casting. I prefer standard primers for Unique myself. I don't find it too dirty at all, as long as you have a heavy boolit pull and a good crimp, with the right alloy, you'll hardly ever need to clean the bore.

trickg

08-01-2008, 07:19 PM

Le Loup Solitaire

08-01-2008, 08:19 PM

In both of my S&W 29's I use the following arrangements. For 25 yard work I load 9 grains of IMR 4756. Its far from being a slammer, but it is accurate. No leading! Bullet is H&G #503 @ 250 grains with WW and sized .429 with NRA 50/50. Thats for the 6 inch bbl. In my 8 and 3/8" and at 50 yards, I used the same bullet but with 17-18 grains of 4227 which is supposedly E. Keith's load for the 44 special. Its a lot noisier, hits somewhat harder, but is accurate as well. Loading with IMR 4227 You can go as high as 23 grains if you want more power, but you can see that the 17-18 range is substantially below the boomer level, and is easier on the gun and you, not to mention conserving a bit of powder. Good shooting. LLs

Heavy lead

08-01-2008, 08:48 PM

Well, the problem at the moment is that I don't have a casting setup. :)

I don't know if they are "hard cast" or simply cast bullets - these are cowboy action bullets.

At some point I want to have a casting setup that includes a Saeco hardness tester - then I'll know for sure what's going through the barrel.

Hopefully they're not too hard, or maybe I've just had really bad luck with bullets that are too hard. Regardless, sounds like you have a great revolver, there's just nothing like a good Smith IMO. One trick that I used on boolits that were too hard so they wouldn't gas cut if they weren't obturating was to use a ox yoke wonderwad. Of course this cuts down powder capacity, so the load you're using may have to be lowered, but it worked for me before I could obtain softer boolits.
Good Luck

crowbeaner

08-01-2008, 09:14 PM

Try 11.0 of IMR SR 4756 with your lead boolits. It has worked well in all my M29s including an old "S" prefix 4 incher. Make sure your boolits are .430 to .431 and all will be well.

Mumblypeg

08-01-2008, 09:20 PM

Patrick, 9 to 10 grains of Unique is a good start, shot 10grs just this afternoon in a Marlin1894. That's still a pistol load. Dirty power? Heck, that's what they make cleaning rods for isn't it?

454PB

08-01-2008, 09:56 PM

Bluedot has not been mentioned yet.....so I will. I use 15 grains with a 250 gr. cast in my Redhawk and my old SBH for about 1300 fps. You might want to start a bit lower with the S&W.

Rusty Shackleford

08-01-2008, 10:51 PM

2 accurate loads out of my 4 5/8" SBH using 240gr cast. Both are dirty and I like it that a way.
8.0gr Unique

11.5gr Herco

trickg

08-02-2008, 12:20 AM

Good stuff - thanks guys! I think I'm probably going to pick up some Unique, but I might give Herco a shot if I can find it locally. There is load data out there using Bullseye, but most of the load data I have seen for 44 mag with lead bullets is using Unique, 2400 (with GC) H110 and a couple of other things, but plenty with Unique.

I've gotten a couple of suggestions for the 8-9.5 range with Unique, so if I do go that way, I'll do just that - start with 8.0 and work up from there, but I doubt if I go past 9.0 - it's just not going to be needed for the shooting that I do, which unfortunately is mostly paper punching.

Three44s

08-02-2008, 12:58 AM

Use your magnum primers with Unique ....... your resultant burn will be much cleaner.

Just start at a start charge and work up ......... 8.5 to 9.0 gr. will present no problems .... just much cleaner.

For an upper medium field load ......... try HS-6 with a magnum primer.

Three 44s

HeavyMetal

08-02-2008, 12:58 AM

You'll find the Unique load works very well in the 29!

If your going to shoot full house loads WW 296, H110, and IMR 4227 are the top choice's! THe IMR powder is more consistant through out the year, 296 and H110 are not cold weather powders.

I will probabely get a verbal flogging for this but I won't use 2400 any more, I just get to much unburned powder out the end of the gun.

A note you may find intersting: the early Model 29's were not as strong as the current crop of 29's. They did a redesign some time in the mid 80's I think.

I have an early nickle 8 3/8 29 and if I load to hot the cylinder will unlock and turn backwards!

Most people think they have a dud round or failed to cycle the cylinder when they cocked it, but it will unlock if you push hot loads in it! This is one of the things Smith cured with the redesign!

trickg

08-02-2008, 01:08 AM

I don't want to load it up too hot - I figure that if I really want to shoot a heavy load in a 44 Mag, I'll do it in a Redhawk or Super Blackhawk that I'll obtain sometime in the future.

Lot's of votes for Unique - seems like a good way to go.

chaos

08-02-2008, 01:43 AM

My 13 year old shoots a 255 gr Kieth load (home cast 240 out of WW's = 254-255 gr) over 10 gr Unique on a weekly basis. ALL of my 44 Rugers LOVE this load as well as my 1894. I size 'em to .430

He plans on taking his first deer with a handgun this year using this load.

sagamore-one

08-02-2008, 07:48 AM

Try red dot ... 7 1/2 gr yields about 1000 fps in my 6 1/2 in 29 with a H&G 503 , 245 gr. boolit.. Super accurate and burns clean. Primer choice seems to make no difference. Boolits are Lyman # 2 alloy lubed with 50/50 alox / beeswax.

uncle joe

08-02-2008, 07:57 AM

hey trick I didn't see titegroup on the list anywhere, give it a try. I loaded several volumes in my 44 mag for testing the other day and the heaviest one gave some pretty good results. I just used published data and started lowest to highest by half grains.
I haven't loaded much unique for the 44 but unique is always good.
JE

Lloyd Smale

08-02-2008, 08:37 AM

10 grains of herco unique power pistol or universal clays. there in the order i prefer them. If your looking for clean burning just reverse the order. Some other good ones are 12 grains of hs6 or 16 grains of 2400. None of these loads are on the ragged edge of pressure so you could easily get away with using mag primers.

trickg

08-02-2008, 08:37 AM

I've read a lot where new Unique burns a bit hotter than old Unique, but I have actually read it as the opposite as well - that old Unique has a bit more pop than new....or was that Bullseye that I read that about?

davwingman

08-04-2008, 10:05 AM

My current 44 mag, a 5" 629, does really well with 11.0 gr. Herco & a 240 gr. RN lead cast bullet. Makes a nice plinking load.

trickg

08-04-2008, 12:40 PM

Thanks for all of the great load recipes. I'll probably swing over to a local gun store (that is unfortunately ailing thanks to Bass Pro and online sales) and pick up a pound of one of the powders listed - probably Unique due to all of the recommendations it has gotten, but we'll see what he has in stock and make a decision from there.

As a side note, I don't see Herco load data for the .44 Magnum listed on in the Alliant pdf for load data, but the website does say that Herco is a good magnum pistol powder - interesting.

wonderwolf

08-04-2008, 01:30 PM

Unique and 2400 are both very fleixible powders. I've used both in calibers all the way up to 458 Win mag. won't go wrong with either.

jimkim

08-04-2008, 07:24 PM

I have some 44mag loads published in Handloader issue #25. These are their starting loads.

173gr Ideal 429220
Alliant Unique 7.0gr, 860fps

173gr Ideal 429220
Alliant Herco 18.0gr, 1,570fps

205gr Ideal 429303 GC
Alliant Unique 9.0gr, 1,100fps

205 Ideal 429303 GC
Alliant Herco 12.0gr, 1,190fps

246 Ideal 429421
Alliant Unique 7.0gr, 860fps

246 Ideal 429421
Alliant Herco 12.0gr, 1,040fps

Sprue

08-04-2008, 09:59 PM

8gr Unique under a 240g SWC.

I've used this load for quite some time. I shoot our local silhouette match with this load. Our targets are steel animal figures at 25,50, 75 and 100 yards. Pistol is 629 6" with 2X scope.

People always bring up the issue that Brand-Y is more dirty than Brand-X. Thats kinda insignificant if not a cliche to me.

First an foremost, I've never fired anything that didn't need cleaning afterwards. Second, if you shoot lead, is dirtiness not an attribute?

That said;

I take really good care of my guns. In fact I used to try and keep them spotless ( I still do but to a lesser degree unless they're going into long time storage). But after cleaning them vigorously for while I realized, you know, with all this handling, polishing and the sort, I'm actually inducing additional wear.......... I now keep them clean enough for reliable operation.

Back to your Load Data request;

The recipe that I listed up top, is actually lower than my published manual(s) starting load if memory serves me correct. None the less I like this charge for silhouette and general plinking. If you shoot as much as I do, a couple grains adds up. However hunting loads (same boolit) is quite hotter.

Additionally, I try and keep powder selections to the minimum. Unique and Bullseye works in most anything pistol around my bench.

James C. Snodgrass

08-04-2008, 10:09 PM

Like 3-44's said HS-6 at about 10 to 12 grs is nice and mild . As far as dirty goes it ain't all that bad IMO . Good luck James[smilie=1:

trickg

08-04-2008, 10:28 PM

In reference to powder burning dirty, I'm talking about powder that burns so dirty that it starts to impede the action of the firearm. Some powders are far worse about that than others - that's all I was referring to.

I think that the 10.0 gr of Unique might be a good charge - as I recall, when I shot up all of those reloads, recoil was quite manageable. That said, it never hurts to keep options open or to keep an eye out for something that might be better, right? :)

unclebill

08-04-2008, 10:37 PM

i use 7.0 trailboss under a 200 gr lrnfp for sillywet shooting through my n.m. blackhawk
it leaves a light grey dusting on the gun.
very mild .

trickg

08-06-2008, 12:35 AM

Heavy lead

08-06-2008, 10:33 AM

Patrick,
When you use the Lee factory crimp die you need not use the crimp in the seating die. I usually back the seating die out just far enough so the case doesn't touch the crimp portion of the die and just use it as a seater only, then crimp in the factory crimp die. Adjusted correctly IMO this works great and won't round the edges of the boolits or shear lead as the crimp in the seater die sometimes will.

oldhickory

08-06-2008, 11:22 AM

wonderwolf

08-06-2008, 04:03 PM

UPDATE:

I picked up two powders this evening - Herco (and this was in an old Hercules can, not an Alliant bottle) and a bottle of Unique. So far I've loaded up 100 rounds with 9.0 gr of Unique - that should be an ok load.

This was also my first foray into loading revolver ammunition and I did it with my set of Lee dies - the 4 die set that includes the factory crimp die. It took me a bit to get the roll crimp and seating depth right, but once I did, they turned out nearly perfect looking ammo. I'm not sure what the factory crimp dies does though except for maybe tighten the crimp that is applied by the bullet seating die. In any case, the ammo looks great and I hope it fires just as well.

I'll load the next bunch with the Herco so that I have a direct side by side comparison.

Thanks again for all of the load recipes - keep them coming because I'm sure I'll try at least a few more of them out.

You might want to watch out on the crimp. By "tightening" it you will also reduce the Diameter of the bullet that is underneath it somewhat which pretty much ruins the sizing operation you performed earlier. I'm not sure just how much the factory lee crimp dies do this but I've had issues with this and a older set of RCBS dies as well as a set of mutt dies from different makers that I had shortened up at the machine shop here on campus just for .44 SPL.

Go with whatever load suits your fancy but don't overlook skeeter skeltons loads in .44 spl either. I use them for indoor plinking when I don't want to hurt any ears or backstops not rated for .44 magnum

trickg

08-06-2008, 05:20 PM

Guys, thanks for the advice on the crimp die - I'll back the seating die out and only use the crimp die from here on out - I don't think that sizing is going to be an issue - these are already sized to .429 and the Lee die shouldn't size them down anymore than that.

trickg

08-07-2008, 08:49 PM

UPDATE #2:

I took my loads to the range tonight and everything seemed to be pretty good - it's an accurate load, I don't appear to have had a leading problem. It was also enjoyable to shoot - it's still a .44 magnum, but I had no issues whatsoever and it appeared to be a pretty mid level load and I could probably go to my Dad's load of 10.0 grains of Unique without a problem.

I'll put together some of the Herco loads this weekend and give them a shot so that I have a basis for comparison. Thanks again folks!

NSP64

08-07-2008, 10:15 PM

I load 12.0gr 2400(new) under 240gr cast for a nice lite load (1000fps) over crimping a softer cast boolit might actually size the boolit down when it is fired with lite loads.Failure to open the crimp back up. ck the fired cases to see if they still have a crimp on them. that may lead to leading.:drinks:

trickg

08-07-2008, 10:52 PM

I'll have to try that load of 12 gr 2400. I figure that I'll do much like Dad did and just have a decent selection of powders available. From what I can see based on the load data that was with some of the ammo I brought home, for pistol he primarily used Unique, HP-38 and 2400.

I did have a bit of leading with the .44 - I found that out when I was doing cleanup tonight. I'm not sure what caused it though - I can't really vouch for what the lead is in the cast boolits I loaded up. The leading wasn't bad though and accuracy remained good throughout - I shot about 60-65 rounds tonight and accuracy seemed to be as good with the last shot as it was with the first.

And for those who might know or care, I'm sipping on about 3 fingers of Aberlour Single Malt, 12 year, sherry finish as I type this. :D

trickg

08-08-2008, 12:53 PM

Hey guys - I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but before I go ahead and load up some .44 mag with Herco, I want to make sure that I'm loading with the correct powder. In looking around, I don't see any officially published load data for .44 Mag using Herco - plenty of data for shotshells, but none for .44 mag. We are talking the Herco shotgun powder, right?

wonderwolf

08-08-2008, 01:47 PM

http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt44mag.htm

towards the bottom, he lists one load using herco and yes herco is herco is herco. Its a multi use powder just like unique is. Though I've never used herco I know some who swear by it.

Alliants herco page

http://www.alliantpowder.com/products/herco.htm

What sources are you using for loading data?

NSP64

08-08-2008, 02:04 PM

I did have a bit of leading with the .44 - I found that out when I was doing cleanup tonight. I'm not sure what caused it though - :D

Probably those store bought boolits. Too hard or undersized or both. Since the gun is well shot with lead you know you have a smooth bore. The hardness and undersized will alow hot gas to go by and melt some lead into the barrel.

trickg

08-08-2008, 09:08 PM

What sources are you using for loading data?
I had a pdf file from Alliant, but their load data for .44 Magnum didn't list Herco - only Unique, Bullseye, 2400, Power Pistol and Blue Dot.

I feel like a moron though - I looked in the back of my Lee reloading manual and there it was, larger than life. I mainly bought that book for information about reloading processes and not so much for load data, but I now see that it's pretty valuable for that as well.

I finished up a batch with the Unique tonight, so my next loading will be with Herco - if I find I like it better, I may just stick with it.

NPS, I can't even tell you how much I want to start casting my own bullets, simply because when I cast them myself, I'll know exactly what I have and I won't be getting something mass produced. While it could very well be that the mass produced stuff will be better than mine, I'll still feel better about it when I'm doing my own.

dukers65

08-22-2008, 07:45 PM

i've got a 29-3 6" and when i use ruger loads it chokes. i'm talkin 24 grs h110/296
with a 240 xtp. backed it down to 22 1/2 grs of powder and your smith should be fine. stcky extraction went away.

for cast with your smith i'd try 14.5 grs of blue dot, maybe work up a bit.
for the rugers 15.7 does a good job with cast.

i've got a virginian, that loves 20 grs of 2400 with a 250 cast. again i'd back down in a smith.

the big thing is have safe fun. dan

MakeMineA10mm

08-29-2008, 03:34 AM

My two "Pet Loads" for the 44 Magnum with the 250gr LSWC are:

7.0-7.5grs of W231 for about 800 fps and

17.5-18.0grs of AA#9 for about 1200 fps.

These are both relatively mild, which is the way to go with the S&W N-frames. I like John Taffin's attitude/opinion that they should be treated like thoroughbreds - used mildly most of the time, just to keep them fit, but capable of being running full-tilt on occasion, when appropriate...

I've also loaded lots of Unique and 2400 in this caliber-boolit combination in the past, and they're good. Also, shot 800-X, SR-4756, and several other combinations. It's hard to find a BAD load with this caliber and boolit in my experience...

725

08-29-2008, 08:06 AM

leadeye

08-29-2008, 09:07 AM

What are you guys loading for the Ranch Dog 265? Would like to hear what your loads are for a slightly heavier .44. I'm interested in everything but want to end up with a hunting load for a Winchester Trapper and maybe a Ruger BH.

I have run 21g of Lil gun with A RD 265, but that is through a Marlin 1894. Haven't shot it through the SBH as of yet.

trickg

08-29-2008, 10:27 AM

I've been pretty pleased with my load using the 9.0 gr of Unique under the 240 gr RN Flt Pt. I recently acquired a single cavity Keith mold - Ideal 429421 - the original Keith design. Reading around, It would appear that this mold drops at about 250 gr with WW so that's going to be my main bullet when I run out of the commercially cast 240 grainers.

I've shot up a lot of my 9.0 gr Unique reloads, so I'll be trying the Herco next. After that, I'll probably try the W231. I reloaded some .38 special with that the other day and they were ok, but I also want to try those with Unique to see if that helps.

dougader

08-30-2008, 11:17 PM

I used to load 44 mag with 240 grain hardcast SWC's for my brother-in-law's Ruger SBH.

We had two loads. Mostly we shot lighter loads with 9 gr WW231 and then a heavier load with 16 grains Blue Dot. Both were pretty clean with no leading.

EDK

08-30-2008, 11:48 PM

I'm currently using TITEGROUP for 44 and 357 both. I used HERCO years ago...the recoil seemed a bit slower than UNIQUE in SUPER BLACKHAWKS or 44 Special Smith & Wessons. This was back in the stone age when Model 29s went for $500 in 1975. A gunsmith in Delaware? re-lined your barrel and re-chambered your cylinder. I had several model 28s done by him and a model 27 fitted with a 1950 44 Target barrel. All of them gone in a burglary in 1978!

231 and Unique have worked well for me also. I never got the combination right on 2400 in 44 or 357..always had sem-burned grains of powder in the barrel and casings. All of my reloading is with cast bullets from wheel weight alloy and a bit of 50/50 solder added.

HINT: Get on the group buy for either the MMA/250 Keith or the heavy weight 44 wadcutter. You know what the Keith type does...you got to see the nice square cut holes in a target from a 44 full wad cutter to believe them. Another good design is the RANCH DOG 265; it has been working well in both my 1894 MARLIN rifles and assorted revolvers. A four or six cavity mould is the only way to fly. The only single cavity moulds I own are for my 50/90 SHILOH SHARPS...and they both go over 600 grains!

:Fire::cbpour::redneck:

S.R.Custom

09-01-2008, 01:21 AM

I've shot up a lot of my 9.0 gr Unique reloads, so I'll be trying the Herco next.

Just saw this thread for the first time.... I hope the Herco loads work for you. I use 8.5 grs of the stuff under a 250 gr LSWC in the .44 Special, and it's my all time favorite accuracy load in that caliber.

I bump the charge up to 9.2 grs in the magnum under the same bullet. Accuracy is very good, just not as quite nice as it is in the .44 Spl. I've never used magnum primers with the stuff, tho. Let us know how it works for you. :D

big dale

09-01-2008, 09:42 AM

I like Herco with 44's. I put several kegs of it thru my Redhawk 10 grains at a time back in the late 80's. I would guess it was traveling around 1000 fps with a 255 grain boolit. It was very comfortable for me to shoot and knocked the hell out of watersoaked bowling pins and clods of dirt. Both my Superblackhawk and my Redhawk would shoot this load around 2 inches at 25 yards.

I like big boolits.

Big Dale

MakeMineA10mm

09-01-2008, 11:34 AM

Herco is definitely an "unsung hero" of pistol powders. It's the absolute best powder for squeezing everything out of the 9mm, though Power Pistol may be knocking on that door. But, Herco is quite flexible. Can be loaded to medium levels, just like Unique, in the big handgun calibers. Can be loaded a little warmer than Unique (kind-of half-way between Unique and Blue Dot). And, it's a darn fine field-load 12ga powder too! I hear it's good in 20-ga, but I've never reloaded more than a couple handfuls of those shells, and I don't even recall the powder I used way back then. Can't go wrong with Herco... Some of those old Hercules powders are just unbeatable. Too bad Alliant is not competing hard in marketing against Hodgdon.

trickg

09-02-2008, 01:13 PM

I loaded up some .44 Mag last night using Herco - I'll give it a shot and see how it goes. The manuals list something around 11 gr of Herco, but I went with 10.0.

The interesting thing was in figuring out how to meter it. I have found that in my Lee Perfect Powder measure, some powders are a little more quirky than others. At first I was having a heck of a time and I wasn't throwing consistent charges at all. Sometimes I'd be way heavy, sometimes I'd be light - all with no adjustment to the measure. I think that it has something to do with how large flake powders drop into the measuring compartment. Of course you old hands are probably well aware of this, but these are the kinds of things I'm figuring out as I go.

I found that if I bumped the knob at the top of the throw, and then bumped it again at the bottom of the throw, that seemed to produce pretty consistent powder throws - if anything, I was weighing in slightly light, but 10.0 grains of Herco fills the case up pretty well, so if it throws a tenth or so light, I'm not going to worry about it - it's still more than enough juice to get it out of the barrel and down range, and I've got quite a bit of leeway the other direction. Even if it metered 10.5, I'm still under the Lee manual load of 11.something or other.

I can't wait to give these a shot. I also used up the last of my magnum primers, so most of these are loaded with a standard primer - again, I'm not terribly worried about over-pressure since I used what should be a mid-range loading with the Herco.

schreibwy

09-02-2008, 11:45 PM

The load that works well in my 29 with 240 grain bullets is 7 grains of Unique with standard primer. At first I had a lot of leading with commercial hard cast bullets because I don't think the pressures were high enough to squeeze the lube out of the groove. After lubricating the bullets with Lee Liquid Alox (Whites bullet lube works just as well and is a lot cheaper) the leading stopped.

Now for the monthly plate shoots that we have out here in the sticks I use 3.5 grains of Bullseye which is lighter than any manual, but it shoots really well and there is no recoil. Again relube those bullets with LLA and you won't have any leading.

trickg

09-03-2008, 12:08 AM

I'll have to try some LLA lube because leading has been the one thing aggravating about using commercial cast bullets. I'm getting low on the 240 grainers I had so I'll lube up the next box I buy - I'll do the whole box in one fell swoop. I've got a decent mold now, but I'm still not ramped up on equipment necessary to cast my own, so for now I'll have to stick with the boxes of commercial cast bullets.

EDK

09-04-2008, 10:11 PM

I finally used LARS' LIQUID XLOX on the RANCH DOG boolits this past week end. 20 rounds of TLC 432 265s actually cleaned residual lead out of the barrel of my 44 BISLEY VAQUERO. I had usually used 50/50 Alox Beeswax type lubes in my STAR lubri-sizer for the past 20 years, but the RANCH DOG design and LLX opened my eyes.

Go look over threads on pan lubing or alox. A LEE press mounted sizer kit would work as a starter. You have a mould (or get one of the RDs)...get a LEE Magnum Melter 20 pound dipper pot...and a dipper!... and you could start casting.

:Fire::cbpour::redneck:

See link to LAR45's LS STUFF on bottom of page...excellent product and even better prices!
There's a link to RANCH DOG also. Good folks and contributors to the forum at both places.

MakeMineA10mm

09-05-2008, 09:07 AM

Now for the monthly plate shoots that we have out here in the sticks I use 3.5 grains of Bullseye which is lighter than any manual, but it shoots really well and there is no recoil. Again relube those bullets with LLA and you won't have any leading.

Like many 44 Mag shooters, I shoot a LOT of 44 Spl. equivalent loads in mine, or even lighter. I agree with schreibwy here that you can go lower than the book start loads with many powders, although certain powders do not work or even become dangerous when this is tried. I'd definitely stick to bulky, flake, shotgun/pistol cross-over powders for this application, until you get a feel for "how low can we go..." Another factor on light loads, is that you must be cognizant of the fact you are shooting light loads, especially while you're developing them. Some light loads can result in bullets not clearing the muzzle, and you want to recognize that happening before you fire another round. (Personally, I've never had a light load leave a boolit in the barrel of a revolver. I have had them leave boolits just sticking out the muzzle of a 20" carbine barrel... Had to up that load about a half-grain to feel comfortable.) Also, never shoot light loads with certain jacketed bullets, like the Speer half-jackets. Speer has found that on rare occassions the core and jacket will separate and the core will go down-range and hit the target, but the half-jacket will be left behind stuck in the bore.

I use W231 in a very light load in my 44s. It's actually my 45ACP powder measure put on my 44 Mag toolhead. It shoots about like a 22LR in a steel 44 and is a wonderful load, if you have a scandium/titanium revolver.

I usually shoot something close to the recommended max load for 44 Special loaded in 44 Magnum brass in my Magnums. Their easy-shooting loads and quite accurate and comparing their performance to something like the 45 ACP, they're nothing to sneeze at. I'd shoot anything we can hunt here in the midwest with those loads up to and including the small- to medium-sized deer. The monsterous corn-fed old bucks, I'd probably want something a little more powerful, just in case of a longer shot as well as to put them down with more authority.

trickg

09-18-2008, 11:50 AM

I got to the range the other night and got to try some of my 10.0 gr of Herco loads. I also took some of my 9.0 gr of Unique loads to use as a comparison and the first cylinder that went through were the loads using Unique.

That load with Herco didn't let me forget that I was shooting a magnum revolver! They were quite a bit more stout than the Unique loads - I would guess it's probably pushing around 1100 fps, but it might be a tad more than that. In any case, they were lighter than the stuff the guy was shooting out of his .44 Magnum a few lanes over. That thing sounded like a cannon and I could see that it was kicking pretty hard. I asked the guy what he was shooting, but he didn't know - they were factory loads with a 240 gr bullet - that's all he knew.

As for accuracy, I couldn't really tell. The range I go to had been closed for a little over 3 weeks for some renovation, and I wasn't having a very good night with anything I was shooting. I shot better last night, but I didn't take my .44 magnum.

I think that the 10.0 gr Herco loading is going to be a keeper. It's plenty stout enough without being too much.

One other question though - my reloads are really smokey, and I don't know if it's the powder, or if it's the lube on the commercially cast bullets I buy. Right now, all of my bullets are cast from the same company and use the same blue, wax-type lube. It doesn't seem to matter if my reloads are Unique, Herco, W231 or Bullseye and I wonder if it isn't the lube.

Thanks for all of the advice on this. It was all greatly appreciated and gave me a great direction to go considering that when I started, I wasn't sure how I was going to load it. As for those load recipes - keep 'em coming! At some point I want to pick up some .44 Special brass and use that as well.

Biggfoot44

09-18-2008, 01:23 PM

Back in the day I used to use 9.2 of Unique. Now I mainly use W231, in the 7.0-7.5 range. For "magnum", yet not full tilt use IMR 4227, in just short of full case for particular bullet. If it "burns dirty", then clean it.

trickg

09-18-2008, 01:40 PM

If it "burns dirty", then clean it.
That was one other thing about Herco - it was about as dirty in terms of powder fouling of anything I have used yet. The .357 loads of my Dad's using 2400 were also dirty in terms of powder fouling. I don't know if that is due to the powder, or due to how old those loads were - early 1980s! I just don't like it when the powder fouling starts to impede the function of the gun, but it seems like that's pretty standard with shooting - just clean them up, and roll on to the next time.

MakeMineA10mm

09-18-2008, 04:52 PM

Smoke - That is almost always the lube or the interaction of the lube with the powder and the humidity in the air. I've shot "smokeless" powder loads with jacketed bullets that created so much smoke, I questioned whether I'd accidentally gotten some black powder in the case... But, if you're noticing it with multiple powders and especially with small charges of faster-burning powders, it's the lube mostly. I haven't found a lube yet that doesn't do this to some degree. The harder the lube is (the ones you have to use fairly high heat on the lubri-sizer to get it to flow) the less it usually smokes, in my experience.

As far as dirtiness of powder goes, let's look at this carefully.

I think that this belief that dirty powder is bad is a left-over from the black powder days when people learned that powder fouling causes corrosion of the barrel. Well, smokeless powder is no where near as hydro-scopic as black powder. Another source of this may be military service where troops are drilled in the art of weapon cleaning and inspections require spotless weapons. Lastly, there is a certain powder company (Hodgdon) who is working hard selling the idea that their powders burn cleaner. (Of course, Alliant and Western Powders have followed suit - you gotta keep up with the Jones's.)

A couple kernals of unburnt powder here or there in a barrel will not destroy the accuracy of the next shot, will not damage your barrel, and does not do anything to hurt you or your guns in any way. About the only decent thing about "clean-burning" powder is that it MAY smoke less, although that's not universally true either...

I've read in several places over the years that excessive cleaning does more harm/damage to guns than powder fouling ever will. Lead deposits definitely need to be cleaned out or they will destroy the accuracy potential of your weapon, but powder fouling is always blown or swept out by the next bullet. It's not anything to be worried about.

gon2shoot

09-18-2008, 07:55 PM

OK, so I'm old school, my light load for the wife and daughter is 18gr of 2400 under a 240gr bullet.
I find some unburnt particles, but I look for what shoots well. I'm gonna clean my gun sooner or later anyway so I don't worry about it.
The thing is, there's lots of loads for the 44 and you've been given some good suggestions so work up a load and go shoot.:-D

Three44s

09-19-2008, 12:15 AM

With 2400 it's important to use standard primers in heavy loads 19 gr. and above with the bullet weight you listed.

With 18 grs. of 2400 and 240 to 250 grs of lead .....I find magnum primers to enhance accuracy and cleanliness.

Three 44s

trickg

09-19-2008, 03:52 PM

I've got a chance to get a 4 pound container of 2400 at a pretty good price. I've never used 2400 - would that be a worthwhile investment? I have a bunch of 38 Special brass - is there a good 2400 recipe to use for that? Dad used to use 2400 in .357 mag and I've brokered a deal to buy 200 rounds of .357 brass from a guy - also a good deal - so I know I could use it in that.

MakeMineA10mm

09-19-2008, 11:17 PM

Skeeter Skelton's "famous" load for medium-power 357s loaded in 38 Spl. cases is:

Lyman boolit from mould # 358156 (a gas-check Ray Thompson design with two crimp grooves) - Be sure to load the bullet so that you're crimping in the lower groove - so the bullet is sticking out of the case too far to fit in most 38 Spls.
38 Spl. brass
standard small pistol primer
13.5grs of 2400 (NOT 10.5, as I first posted... OOPS - Thanks Nueces)

Nueces

09-20-2008, 02:25 PM

Could that Skeeter load have been a typo? My sources show a load of 13.5/2400, all other details exactly as you stated.

I've used the 13.5 load a good deal, but have gone to H110 for the heavy 38. I'm aware that many have the heeby-jeebies about loading the 38 case to this level. So, I'm careful. The 358156, seated out, means the heavy load.

Mark

MakeMineA10mm

09-20-2008, 02:39 PM

Snapping Twig

09-26-2008, 04:32 PM

trickg

09-27-2008, 10:37 AM

My pet load is 7g W231 (same powder as HP38) in a magnum case with a 240g cast SWC.

I always figured it for @ 900fps, but an earlier post said 800fps - I need a chronograph.

Either way it's a pleasant round to shoot and it hits hard.
I've read and been told that W231 is a cleaner burning version of HP38, but that otherwise they are the same, but it's interesting to note that my Lee Reloading manual lists different data for them. For instance it shows max load data for a 240 gr lead bullet:

HP38 -- 11.0 gr -- 1334 fps -- 38100 CUP
W231 -- 11.0 gr -- 1285 fps -- 38000 CUP

It's very close, but something else interesting is that for HP38, it shows 5.5 gr as a minimum starting load, but shows 10.2 gr of W231 as the minimum starting load.

I'm not sure if this is to try to establish them as being different from one another or not, but it seems to me that even if they are slightly different, that it would be ok to interchange one for the other with the same loading criteria.

I think that one of the flaws in many reloading manuals is that they only give generalized load data across the board for a particular powder and bullet weight/type. Does any company produce a comprehensive manual that can be purchased for a specific cartridge that really delves into just what is what regarding them?

Snapping Twig

09-27-2008, 12:16 PM

W231 & HP38 are identical. They are made on the same line and the only difference is the packaging. Same for W296 & H110.

I called Hogdon and asked them SEVERAL times - always the same answer - identical.

Variations in loading data - you're right. Now, the question is why? I figure it has reasons other than pressure curves, but I can only guess. Hogdon admitted to this on the phone with me, but again, the guy reminded me the powders were made on the same line so the loading data SHOULD be the same.

I've substituted each for the other and found no difference, but I'm a civilian w/o proper testing equipment so POA and POI and felt recoil and residue is all I can monitor - but they were the same as far as I could tell.

Scrounger

09-27-2008, 02:44 PM

Snapping Twig, your problem is you're not anal enough...:kidding:

trickg

09-27-2008, 02:44 PM

I'm not really surprised that those powders are in fact identical, but it just goes to show you the power of advertising. I once asked some advice regarding those two powders and what the other person would choose: "231!" They said it with conviction too as if the one truly was superior to the other.

Well, six of one, half a dozen of the other - when I'm out of my W231, I'll pick up whichever is more readily available.

Snapping Twig

09-27-2008, 04:51 PM

Snapping Twig, your problem is you're not anal enough...:kidding:

I realize you think you're kidding, but I don't find it amusing.

NHlever

09-27-2008, 05:22 PM

The difference in loading data is probably within the allowable difference in powder lots, and I expect that one lot might be packaged as one powder, and the next lot packaged as the other.

MakeMineA10mm

09-30-2008, 02:07 PM

Yes, HP38 and W231 are the same powder. They are manufactured by St. Marks Powder Co., and the "generic" label for them is: "SMP231".

The differences between them in loading manuals is partially due to the differences in all powders in lot-to-lot variations, but there is more.

Winchester and Hodgdon have different engineers and people in their labs. One set of people may look at different factors, like say, they like a certain loading density, while the other looks at something else, like the popularity of cowboy action shooting. Therefore, one company's starting load might be significantly higher (the one worried about load density) than the other (the one thinking about the ultra-light CAS loads).

Then, one must also consider the variations in testing equipment. This is relatively minimal, because all companies are supposed to use SAAMI-approved chambers and barrels in their testing-equipment and they are supposed to use calibration ammo that produces a base-line to compare the pressures they are getting from their loads. But, when something is manufactured, there are ALWAYS differences, even though they may be slight.

Lastly, and this is a big one, there is the difference in components between what one lab used and another. Hodgdon may have used Federal cases and Remington primers, while Winchester used all Winchester components, etc., etc.

The really informative thing about this is that it shows we shouldn't be TOO reliant on published data as being OK --> Again, always start low, watch for pressure signs (and know what pressure signs are), and work up carefully. Also, be extra careful if going outside the boundaries of published load data.