Brute force or stealth?

[AbitNutz]

Sorry this is so long! But try and bear with me....

I'm faced with a decision of how to secure my firearms. I can likely afford one good safe
that will in no way protect all my guns or I can convert a very large walkin and camp out closet off a room that shouldn't have a closet in to an invisible room.

Can I guarantee that the room couldn't be found? Nope, but it's really in a place that it shouldn't be and I have seen some great ideas how to disguise things. Also it could truely be renovated to fit my storage needs. But while crooks are usually super stupid they always manage to steal your stuff.

I could afford one killer safe that wouldn't begin to hold all my treasures but it would hold the best of them. I mean we're talking a true safe that would make Butch reach for more dymamite.

I'm not sure going halfway or both ways make sense. If I do the invisible room all my valuables will fit into it and I wouldn't need a safe. I guess a cheap safe could serve as a diversion but then you have to figure out what you're going to sacrifice.

My man cave is FILLED with gun tinkering tools and reloading equipment so the univited guest would absolutely know there were guns somehwhere.

I understand that most burglaries are committed by people who know the owners somehow. In light of this, I have tried to keep the extent of my little armory as quiet as possible, even from our grown children.

I thought about doing the hidden room near term and then skip a few gun auctions and then down the road sell my soul to Graffunder or the like and put the safe inside the hidden room. Best of both worlds! However, that would be quite a while consdering what I'm going to do to make make sure the room is truely invisible and fairly secure. Also a big ole battleship inside the room would screw up the organization quite a bit.

I'm also worried that the floor may not support a behemoth. Such a battleship would surely have to go on a concrete floor which would mean the basement, which is a walk out...

I know there is no absolute security and perhaps I'm overthinking this...what did you all do?

[Thundarstick]

I do both! The fewer people know you have any thing of real value the better is a very good idea! I have a coworker whose father who had several hundred thousand dollars worth of guns in a detached garage that none knew about! Skip the fire proofing and buy steel in a safe!! Even the best safes are just a bump in the road if a crook has all weekend to burst it! Don't forget to make cameras and a security system part of your protection plan!

[rototerrier]

Doesn't sound like I'm nearly to that level of accumulation! I've managed with a Cabela's Ambassador 35 (Liberty Lincoln) safe and a big HomeDepot Job Site Box with the double locks for all my ammo. Bolted to my cement floor and up against a wall. I figured it will thwart the thugs that just run in and run out with all they can carry. I have motion sensors and a monitored alarm with a wireless transmitter. All can be thwarted by someone who know's what they are doing, but it helps with the thugs. I also have it all positioned under a fire sprinkler.

I actually worry more about fire than burglars. I work from home and am probably around 90+% of the time, so the likelihood of someone showing up and not having to go thru me first will be slim.

But, if a guy rolls up with his own cutting torches and power tools, then he is going to get into anything I have anyway. He's showed up with a plan. I'd considered some of those super secure, and super expensive, safes and decided to compromise assuming all of the above.

I also make sure I have enough insurance to cover the value of everything and I keep photo documents and a list of serials. I love my stuff, but I'm not the kind of guy that gets that attached. After all, we are all just keeping an eye on them until the next guy gets a turn...unless you plan on being buried with everything!

If I lost it all today and insurance covered, I'd have fun building it back up again.

I'd think a combination of decent safe(s) and keeping them out of sight would be sufficient.

[Ickisrulz]

A monitored alarm system is not much money each month.

[Pine Baron]

I've got a big dog. Good luck gettin' around him.

[Petrol & Powder]

Good question by the OP.

The hidden room depends ENTIRELY on secrecy. Once that element is lost it has zero protective value. Can you build the secret room without anyone knowing and can you keep it secret after it's built?

On the other hand - No fixed fortification [Safe] will withstand a prolonged siege. A safe buys you time but will eventually be breached if the attacker has sufficient time to breach it. However, slowing down the attacker and buying some time is often good enough to protect your property.

The hidden room is effective as long as its existence is unknown but once that information is out; it's compromised forever. You are entirely correct in your comments that friends and family members often compromise security. They may not leak that information intentionally or maliciously but it doesn't matter how that information is leaked, only that was leaked.

Given that it's extremely unlikely that the existence and location of a hidden room can be absolutely be maintained as a secret; I would recommend going with the safe.

Hide the safe so that it doesn't scream, "here are all of the valuables" to everyone that comes into the house. Bolt the safe to the floor and walls so that it cannot be tipped over and attacked or carried away. Build walls around the safe so that it cannot be easily attacked if it is found. And leave some sacrificial guns in easily discovered locations as bait. (maybe disable those guns by removing key parts and locking the parts in the safe).

All you are really doing is buying time but a little time is all you really need.

[lightman]

I like the hidden room idea with plans to install a nice safe at a later date. If you have the skills to build the room yourself then you also have the skills to add additional support under the floor. As far as security goes, multiple layers are good. A monitored alarm system, cameras, a dog and a room or safe.

[Uncle R.]

Some of the best advice I've seen involves doing both. Hidden room? Absolutely! Even though it's hard to keep such things totally secret, keep quiet about it as best you can. Put a good safe in the hidden room, put your best treasures there.

After all that you still need a decoy. If the local scum decide to help themselves to your stuff after hearing bar room tales about "the guy with all of the guns" they'll keep looking until they find something. You have to give 'em something to find. Get a cheaper safe to serve as a sacrificial anode. Hide it in a haphazard manner that allows them to find it but satisfies the "secret room" tales they've heard. Put in a couple of Hi-Points, a sporterized Carcano, and your worst rusted Yugo Mauser. Any similar treasures will do. With any luck they'll run off with your worst junk and never realize that you have video recordings of them to help the cops nab them.

You will have a "nanny cam" to record them, right?

Uncle R.

[Biggin]

Mean dog and a bigass safe.

[Eldon]

It's really SIMPLE !

1. Get a good alarm system that does not rely on land lines. (screaming sirens, hidden cameras, strobe lights in and out, call center notification.
2. Have your cell phone set up to alert you of any violations.
3. Buy a special insurance rider to protest your good guns.
4. Buy a cheap safe and fill it with $200 garbage guns with no firing pins or otherwise disabled.
5. Install pepper spray bombs in that safe, so the scum think it's worth it.
6. Elsewhere in your house, build multiple hiding places for your good guns. False back closets, under the floor cubbies, in the attic etc.
7. Set them all up with electric deadbolts, activated by switches hidden and a ways away from the space.
8. Equip them with multiple firing, time delay pepper spray units.

Sadly Phosgen dispensers are illegal as are "set" guns.

Three main objectives as in all good scams:
- disinformation
- protection of the truth
- you knowing what is really going on

Cheap ? no, Effective ? probably AND should they still get stuff, your insurance compant can never claim you were lax,

[Detroitdanm]

From the sounds of it, you have NO security at this point, so anything you do will be an upgrade. Truthfully, this is a situation that should have been addressed long ago, because it didn't happen overnight. As that isn't the case, it really is something that should be addressed ASAP. Yours is a tragic story in the making such as;

"The police found the bodies of a local elderly couple today after being alerted by their grown children. It appears they were killed in their house during a burglary that may made have been brought about by the a large cache of weapons that appeared to have been kept in the house. Police said that although no weapons remain in the house, other evidence indicates the number was a substantial. Police say the weapons were not secured, making them an inviting target for the burglar's. When questioned the adult children had no knowledge of the huge cache of weapons that are now missing from the house. Police are investigating the couples backgrounds to see if they had any affiliation with fringe or radical hate groups. At this time though the police have no leads to report in the investigation. Local political and religious leaders expressed outrage that such a dangerous situation could be permitted to exist and renewed calls for gun control. Funeral arrangements for the slain couple are pending at this time. "

One solution would be to get that one killer safe now to protect the best of your treasures and then sell off what was needed of the rest until you could afford another for the remainder.

Another solution would be to go for good, not best. If you can afford one killer safe you could afford several lesser but still good safes. I would get the number of safes needed to secure the guns and other valuables and then put them in that secure, "secret" room. If your floor can't stand the weight, either relocate to the basement or rethink your priorities or how much stuff you want to keep.

Regardless, you probably DO need to skip those gun auctions for awhile until you ensure that what you already have is properly secured.

[Boolit_Head]

I was shocked by the prices when I looked around. Best I seems to find was a smaller safe at bass pro for 1200. Short while later I walked into the local Tractor Supply to get some bits and they had this Bohemoth that beat the price of everything I saw.

I am not sure how good Cannon safes are but a 80 gun safe for 1k seems like a deal.
https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/cannon-ts5950-75-safe?cm_vc=-10005

[Smoke4320]

First off I would NEVER buy a cheap digital gun safe .. Its battery powered .. All of the cheap ones have a single key to unlock them if the battery fails .. Guess what a good burglar has that key .. unplug battery use key they are in ..
second forget # of locking lugs .. The ENTIRE safety of a gun safe is HOW much armor plate is in front the locking mech.. knowing the model of the safe and where the armor plate is determines how fast a good burglar can drill thru and open ..
now it will most times stop the drug head looking for a quick smash and grab

[Thundarstick]

You get what you pay for in gun safes! Do your homework so you can make an informed decision about what your priorities are.

One of the biggest waste of money, weight, and space (to me) is filling a safe with sheet rock! If you want fire protection over theft protection go with rock wool. Sheet rock insulation protects by out gassing water when heated and really just makes the owner feel good. Buy STEEL, not sheet rock! If you really worry about fire you would do well to research where a burning house gets hottest, hint, it's the basement, where all gun safes end up in a house fire regardless of where it starts out. Most safes only stop the smash and grab burger. Semi pros are only slowed (a very short time by the cheep Chinese stuff) by a safe, and real pro won't mind killing you if the return is good enough!

[mdhillbilly1]

My new friend has purchased 6 of the large firearm cabinets from Tractors Supply Company. The Units are made of good quality. He had each unit attached to the concrete floor with 8 extremely hard 2 inch bolts that would require a torch to cut them loose.

He made a concealed Safe room for his family to protect them during a breakin. The 10 foot Entertainment Center with a 20 foot Library wall that contains real Library books hides the 30 foot x 15 foot concealed Safe room and his 6 Large Safe from Tractor Supply Company.

He keeps all firearms of the same caliper in the same cabinet along with the ammunition. The Wall can be moved to allow move safes to be added. My friend even has his reloading equipment behind the Library wall, after it was suggested to him by a local deputy. This reduces the chances that people would realize that he has a major stock pile of Firearms.

My friend even has an FFL LICENSE due to the amount of Firearms that he has in his home. He advised me that it allows him to be able to purchase firearms and ammunition at good prices.

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[UKShootist]

Brute force OR stealth? Why not both. Remember the unofficial motto of the English, "Sneaky's best."

But there is a third method. I am congenitally untidy, and I am a true gatherer. The result it, my gunroom is a death trap for any casual or unwanted visitor. I even struggle to make it across the room safely.

[AbitNutz]

That cracks me up...a couple of Hi-Points and a spoterized Carcano. Crooks are stupid...would they go for a zillion dollars with of reloading equipment based on that haul? Maybe so...

[am44mag]

If you're smart about how you set it up, you won't need much to protect your stuff. A few good safes (not cheap locking cabinets, but not a bank vault either), and an alarm system are a great start. Most criminals won't be prepared for either, and the alarm makes sure the criminals won't be in your house for long.

[AbitNutz]

From the sounds of it, you have NO security at this point, so anything you do will be an upgrade. Truthfully, this is a situation that should have been addressed long ago, because it didn't happen overnight. As that isn't the case, it really is something that should be addressed ASAP. Yours is a tragic story in the making such as;

"The police found the bodies of a local elderly couple today after being alerted by their grown children. It appears they were killed in their house during a burglary that may made have been brought about by the a large cache of weapons that appeared to have been kept in the house. Police said that although no weapons remain in the house, other evidence indicates the number was a substantial. Police say the weapons were not secured, making them an inviting target for the burglar's. When questioned the adult children had no knowledge of the huge cache of weapons that are now missing from the house. Police are investigating the couples backgrounds to see if they had any affiliation with fringe or radical hate groups. At this time though the police have no leads to report in the investigation. Local political and religious leaders expressed outrage that such a dangerous situation could be permitted to exist and renewed calls for gun control. Funeral arrangements for the slain couple are pending at this time. "

One solution would be to get that one killer safe now to protect the best of your treasures and then sell off what was needed of the rest until you could afford another for the remainder.

Another solution would be to go for good, not best. If you can afford one killer safe you could afford several lesser but still good safes. I would get the number of safes needed to secure the guns and other valuables and then put them in that secure, "secret" room. If your floor can't stand the weight, either relocate to the basement or rethink your priorities or how much stuff you want to keep.

Regardless, you probably DO need to skip those gun auctions for awhile until you ensure that what you already have is properly secured.


All good points but perhaps the most astute is what Detroitdanm wrote. He's right. I don't have anything. We have a dog but he's more in the category of an item that could be stolen rather than theft deterrent.
I have no choice but to go full monte on the hidden room. If I don’t do a first class job of it, it may be discovered. Although why anyone would put a room that size where it is, is beyond me.
Next I will invest in a single good quality safe that is large enough to hold the most valuable items. If I have to, and I know I will, I’ll add additional support columns underneath to support it.
I will immediately be putting in an area alarm system that is wireless with battery backup.
I will also add an insurance rider for not only the property but the cost of the safe. If they get in, bypass the alarms, find the room, loot the place, and then spend an hour getting into the safe, they will have done tens of thousands of dollars in damages beyond what is stolen.
However if they catch me or the wife on a bad day we’ll likely just hand it all over…
The whole notion sounds ridiculous at first. We live in a wonderful area, fairly affluent, lots of land, private…hmm. High dollar thieves don’t burgle low rent neighborhoods. Might as well paint giant arrow on the curved driveway saying “Thieves park here”.

[rking22]

Don't forget fire, I've been thru that nightmare! Now that is my primary concern and integrated into the security system.

[Ed K]

Don't have the large quantity that the OP and others may have on hand however the type and value span a wide spectrum. I really like the decoy approach and a Sam's Club safe with the Remington pumps and Glocks should satisfy a burglar as having found the cache more so than junk and this modest value is covered by an insurance rider. Your self defense and common hunting guns are fairly readily accessible and yet safe from children and house guests. The really valuable stuff is secured in such a way that it is hidden yet at the same time not in an entire walk-in room. It is much easier to fashion (and keep secret) a hidden wall or a closet than a whole room.

[308Jeff]

Don't forget fire, I've been thru that nightmare! Now that is my primary concern and integrated into the security system.

Indeed.

I do fire and water damage restoration for a living.

About 10 years ago, I did a fire rebuild for a gentleman who had a firearms collection that most of us could only dream of having. I don't know the exact total, but MANY Garands and M1 Carbines were part of it.

He had a 15'x15' vault built into the home. Insulated and double sheetrocked CMU walls with a mega vault door. He lost everything in the fire, which started on his reloading bench in the airplane hangar attached to his house. Problem was, the ceiling for the vault was the joists for the second story of the house. Once the fire started, it quickly burned through the floor above and dumped into the vault.

Most high end gun safes go a GREAT job of protecting firearms from both fire and water. There is a key component to this, however, at least according to the company that sold me mine; the door seals are somewhat dependent upon the initial heat of the fire to swell and do their job. If they don't seal before water is applied, they can leak.

[quilbilly]

Start by building a house with a hidden 4'x4' room in a place not expected. Nuff said.

[mdhillbilly1]

Start by building a house with a hidden 4'x4' room in a place not expected. Nuff said.If it is in a basement make sure you seal the walls. I would suggest hiding you reloading equipment too.

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[dverna]

I have two safes, but find them to be a pain. Insurance and an alarm system is what works for me. I have no heirlooms, so everything I have can be replaced. $75,000 of insurance is not that expensive and it covers every possible loss.

[UKShootist]

Just by way of sharing, here's the UK version. (Not a recommendation)

To acquire a firearm in the UK you must have a licence. There's a lot about that I could say but we're talking security here so I'll save that for another time.

One of the requirements that must be complied with is security and that requires, at least a suitable cabinet, the specifications for which are ensconced in the British Standards system. Basically a steel construction with jemmy proof doors locked by 2 five lever locks or a multiple shoot bolt design. This must be bolted to a (usually) load bearing wall of brick construction with usually four decent sized rag bolts. An exception to this is if the safe is very large, at least 20 rifles (no pistols here don't forget) and could not be carried due to it's weight. Ammunition must be kept in a separate safe, which is most often constructed as part of the rifle safe. This installation is inspected by a 'firearms enquiry officer' before the licence is granted. Further measures, such as a monitored alarm and other 'target hardening' measures such as higher than usual standard locks on doors and windows may be required if the neighbourhood is 'rough'. Breaching the security requirements, E.G. leaving a rifle out on a stand while you are at work, is a criminal offence which carries a fine and possible prison sentence.

Security of the keys is paramount. A most respectable person who owned firearms was out one day when a licensing enquiry officer came calling. On being told he was out by the man's elderly mother, also of a character beyond reproach he told her that he only needed to check a couple of serial numbers at which she said she would get the keys to save him having to return. The man's Firearms Certificate was revoked and his firearms had to be disposed of. He challenged this in the appeal court and lost. The police were recently moaning that they could not just enter a firearms owner's home whenever they wanted to in order to check the firearms security as if they asked, they could be refused. Without going into the technicalities they tried to say they couldn't obtain a warrant for such a visit but this was a lie as how it could be done was explained in a heavyweight report by Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary. Never assume a police officer is out to help you, never trust a police officer. (I was one for 22 years)

I own 22 rifles and a few shotguns. I have three such safes, not being bright enough to buy a gert big one in the first place. They are a PITA but give some peace of mind.

I will mention that, oddly enough you might think, ownership of firearms in the UK is still, so far, a 'right' and not a privilege, contrary to and to the surprise of, many who find this out. The Firearms Act of 1968 states that providing a person is of good character, can comply with the security requirements, and has 'good reason' (basically, has access to land to shoot live quarry or is a member of a shooting club) then he 'shall' be granted a certificate.

That should cheer up most firearm owning Americans. :drinks:

[jimlj]

Don't mean to rain on everyone's parade, but anyone with half a whit of internet savvy can find the address of any of the posters on this forum. Any hidden room won't take long to find if the thief knows there is something of value in the house. I personally don't have half a whit so there is no worry about me finding your address.

I think a hidden room is better than nothing, but a good safe(s) is a better way to go.

[rototerrier]

Ha, by that logic....we can all assume anyone posting on these forums has guns and by extension are targets for burglary. Simply posting on castboolits in general exposes us all. I think it's safe to assume just about anyone posting on this forum has something worth stealing.

[Eldon]

Don't mean to rain on everyone's parade, but anyone with half a whit of internet savvy can find the address of any of the posters on this forum. Any hidden room won't take long to find if the thief knows there is something of value in the house. I personally don't have half a whit so there is no worry about me finding your address.

I think a hidden room is better than nothing, but a good safe(s) is a better way to go.


I await your identifying me. The NSA you're not !

[bob208]

only problem with hidden room is there will be a trail to it. marks on the wall where you open it scratches on the floor. or some other tell tail signs.

[mdhillbilly1]

only problem with hidden room is there will be a trail to it. marks on the wall where you open it scratches on the floor. or some other tell tail signs.Easily handled using a pocket hiding door that stays in the same marks that has been used for many years that was undetectable by experts at the time. This is used in many top security doors for private homes.

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