Deathmatch for Bull Goose Looney at Raton [Archive]

Black Prince

07-30-2008, 09:33 PM

Brent could care less which bullet type is superior. He is like a moth and will go wherever the light is brightest. This is a publicity stunt. It is being done to get his name mentioned in assocation with a nationally known gun writer and how Brent challenged him to a duel. He can't lose either way it turns out, or whether or not Mike even accepts the challenge. Bragging rights, publicity, and name recognition is what this is all about, and it's just another reason why everybody in the BPCR shooting game who knows him, has little regard for him, and that is a shame. This sport should be about, and for most of us it is about having fun while shooting these old rifles.

I hope all of you boys are on the firing line making noise and smoke somewhere and keeping your fellow shooters awake and it does not matter if you are shooting grease grove or paper patch bullets. My regards to all of you out there keeping this grand old American tradition alive and well. And all the best to Mike and Brent. That shootout ought to be a blast no matter what the out come.

Don McDowell

07-30-2008, 11:59 PM

I love it!
I wish I could be there, just to watch it.
I do not know how to explain it, I am sure my wife would fall asleep with boredom.
I would not.
Just to watch it, woud make my day, no matter who won.

:roll:Watching the paper matches at Raton is about as exciting as watching paint dry on a cold , humid day.:neutral:

Southern Son

07-31-2008, 01:58 AM

I think that Bullshop and Black Prince are right, although I kill to get to Raton, or Quigley, or any of the big shoots in US. This biggest comp for BPCR that we have over here is the Billy Dixon, which I had to miss this year due to manpower shortages at work.

Buckshot

07-31-2008, 02:40 AM

...............While I LOVE the way a paper patched boolit looks in it's cartridge, and it may indeed be the finest of all hunting projectiles, I will admit it may have it's limitations. I have no doubt that the patched slug has been experimented with to death, for target use.

If it had a definate advantage then EVERYONE would be using them, even if they had to pay to get them patched. On the other hand the patch is JUST ANOTHER VARIABLE in reloading and shooting. Variables are things to be avoided if at all possible. An experienced shooter who has managed to at least partially master reading the wind fires a shot. Conditions looked good and the sights were 'on' at ignition and the shot felt good.

Yet the slug just misses in some manner. Did the patch come off cleanly at the muzzle or did a piece go along for part of the ride?

..................Buckshot

Black Prince

07-31-2008, 10:01 AM

If paper patch bullets are superior, SOMEBODY SOMEWHERE would be loading them and they would be available to shooters everywhere. Now that doesn't mean that they can't be shot accurately, because they certainly can. And it doesn't mean that Brent can't out shoot Mike because he certainly may. He is a good shooter and Mike is a fair shooter. The outcome of any match between them is more likely because of their respective shooting abilty than any superiority of either grease grove or paper patched bullets.

I truly hope that they did have such a match and that Mike will write an article about the results because it will be interesting reading. But any of you who've ever shot paper patched bullets know how careful you have to be with them and on a rainy day, that can be hard to do. So for hunters, or anyone exposed to the elements, grease groove bullets have seemed like the best way to go for the last 100 years and I'm thinking we are not likely to see a movement to go back to them any time soon regardless of what the outcome of any such shooting match turns out to be.

But you know fellas, it doesn't matter anyway because a day spent on the firing line making that wonderful smelling smoke is a day well spent and it doesn't matter if you are making that smoke using grease groove or paper patch bullets.

Don McDowell

07-31-2008, 12:14 PM

Paper patchin is a hoot. It gives a feller something new to play with without the expense of a new rifle, cartridges etc.
They are extremely accurate some of the groups Kenny Wasserberger posted at 1000 were almost unbelievable.
But when it gets down to brass tacs, as one well known shooter put it to me in a private conversation , paper patch is great, but if I had to stake my life on a bullet , it'ld be a grease groove
:drinks:

This fued thing between Brent and MLV etal, isn't quite reported right here, it can all be found on the Shiloh board with enough digging.
Bottom line is I hope all the parties that were involved got their differences at least settled or some sort of mutuall understanding was arrived at now that Raton is about done till next year.:-D

Bullshop

07-31-2008, 01:47 PM

Look back to the progression of developments that got us where we are today. The accuracy nuts of the day started out using patched sluggs in thier fine muzzle loading cap locks. That lead to using patched bullets in the muzzle loading cartridge guns. Yes they were muzzle loaded even though the rifles were of breach loading design.
There were several patching methods in use including the Chase patch, or cross patch.
When they felt they had taken the patched slugg as far as it could go the next progression was to grooved boolits.
First off as when dealing with any stuborn lot not wanting to change or leave the flock it was believed that the grooved boolit could not really seriously compete with the patched slugg. After a bit when such notables as Harry Pope accepted the grooved boolit to be equally as accurate as a patched slugg paper patching went out of fashion, just as did muzzle loading a breach loading rifle when the same notables found that breach seating a grooved boolit ahead of a charged case gave equal or better accuracy.
After that and until now the grooved boolit has been the one to set records like the Roland/Pope group that I believe stood as a world record for about 70 years. I chalange anyone on this board to best that shooting with any gun, scope, or ammo you can get your hands on. Going by poor memory it was something like .75" c/c ten shots at 40 rods or 1/8 mile or 220 yards, take your pick. Any takers?
Anyways if them shooters like Mr. Roland went to grooved boolits from patched sluggs I expect there was good reason for it.
With that said God willing I will soon, opening day is Aug 10 be hunting moose and caribou with a 50/90 and 575 gn PP. The rifle is a Browning/Winchester high wall. The mold is from Kaltool in and adjustable smooth side cup base or flat base, and a wonderful work of machinist art that tool is. So far I have taken moose, mule deer, and a nice grizzly bear with patched boolits and am well pleased with the performance on game.
God willing hope to have some good reports in the fall.
Blessing
BIC/BS

Black Prince

07-31-2008, 01:56 PM

Unfortunately, that isn't the only place where the feud is or has been going on Don. You can see it very often on the ASSRA board and several others as well. It is always present anywhere he is. Many shooters just never accept that superior attitude and those constant condecending remarks that he is so well know for making. Most of us usually get as far away from him as we can on the shooting line and enjoy the day shooting anyway. We are not there trying to prove that we are the best shooter in the entire world, or that we know everything about everything.

The GOOD NEWS is that there are more than enough really great people out there to make up for the few who just can't behave as adults and always have to have their way about everything. Those are the guys who make this such a great sport and well worth going to the various shooting events to meet them. Many of you boys have made my day at shoots and have enriched my life greatly and I go to certain shoots just to see some of you. Heck, I can shoot right out of my back door if I want to. You boys make it worth while to pack up and go way off over younder to shoot.

Kragman71

07-31-2008, 02:52 PM

Hello
I've been paper patching for seven years,and cannot produce a round that will shoot as accurately as my grooved bullets.
They do shoot a lot faster,though.To me,that neans that they are better for hunting.
Frank

Don McDowell

07-31-2008, 11:44 PM

Black Prince I know some of the players, in the melodrama.
I stand by my previuos statement that , I'm hoping they all made their presence known to each other at Raton, and that the vitriol can come to some sort of end. Sometimes some pretty good threads with good info have gotten turned into garbage, and hopefully this will help bring a slow down or better yet a complete end to it.
Or at least until the next guy nobody knows shows up and starts to ..........

Idaho Sharpshooter

08-01-2008, 12:58 AM

No matter what the New Age Experts say, the paper patch bullet was loaded by almost all of the factories back in the 1870-1885 era when all of the buffalo were killed. It doesn't take much research to prove that. Mike is a great guy, but he chose to use grease groove bullets starting off on his writing career. Had he been as a big a stickler for bullet accuracy as powder, he would have contributed much more to the historical side of his writing. His promotion of GG over PP in writing about "Buffalo Rifles" is about as historically correct as using Pyrodex at a BPCRS match. If you read about the LR matches in the 1870's, like the Elcho Shield and the famous Irish with their ML, vs the US in 1874, we shot PP bullets in that match.

Also, Brent (as big a horse's ass as he is) is not the one badmouthing the other one on BP website forums. The posts are done by grease groove advocates.

Still no news of the big shoot out.

Rich

Black Prince

08-01-2008, 02:00 PM

tom barthel

08-01-2008, 04:31 PM

I don't know who is the better rifleman and I DON'T CARE. The match can ONLY show who the match winner is. There was a time when I cared about bragging rights. Thankfully, that time is past. I do hope both shooters have fun. Most rifles are as accurate as the operator. I'm not so good anymore. I can still come close enough to the mark to give him some bad dreams. I don't worship or follow blindly any so called expert on any subject. I usually pick out what I want and disregard the rest. I have a great respect for the people here but, I make up my own mind on what I accept and what I don't. I would like to see the results of the match. A hit is a hit. A miss is a miss.

bcp477

08-01-2008, 05:18 PM

Yawn. (My take on the competition between the "sides" of this issue). Why does this - just like so much else - HAVE to become a competition, or more correctly....a "grudge match" ? I can never understand the propensity for turning everything into a battle.

Having said that, I will say this. I adopted cast bullets because jacketed ones became (IMHO) too bloody expensive (a "ripoff", really). I tried paper-patching because I didn't like the ridiculous prices of gas-checks (also a "ripoff"....with the excuse, like jacketed bullets, that metals prices have caused all of the increase. That is bull.) Paper-patching happens to work well for me. That is, I get the results I want, at relatively low cost. So, I care not one whit for which might be ultimately, technically "better". I use what works for me. Period. The rest, to paraphrase a line from a movie, if I may...."is only colored bubbles".

waksupi

08-01-2008, 08:51 PM

Don McDowell

08-01-2008, 11:48 PM

Don, my join date at Cast Bullets is 2006. Yours seems to be listed as 2008. I'm sure that must be an error. I had no idea that you are such a well known expert. I’m sorry. I must have missed that. I should have known better, but after all, I'm a nobody that “showed up” here two years before you.

I do however, share your hope that as you put it “I'm hoping they all made their presence known to each other at Raton, and that the vitriol can come to some sort of end.” And now that your presence is known to me, I’ll be much more respectful of your position in the future. You really do know Brent well, don’t you? Are you brothers by any chance?

Please give him my highest regards the next time you see him and all the best to both of you. Also, since you know some of the players and are much more closely involved with this, I’m sure you’ll be the first to know the Raton match results, so we'll all be looking for you to post the results here.

Thanks.

Don't quite know what to say, there prince, would help I guess , if I knew if your just a drunk or a doper.
But here we go I'll try to answer your drivel paragraph by paragraph.

Not quite sure how your 2006 join date on an internet site is supposed to give you some sort of high boots over someone elses 40+ years of experience , but oky doky if that's what helps you deal with your little man syndrom........:).
You nor nobody else has ever heard or ever will hear me refer to myself as an expert at anything. I do have a good bit of experience with black powder in muzzleloaders, and cartridges, that goes back along time. I did say I do know some of the folks involved in that stupid fued, and that's all there is to it.
I hope they get it settled.
As to your assertion of Brent and I being buddies, :-D You need to sober up long enough to look around a bit and find out thats about as wrong as anything , as you've been able to drivel out.:roll: I've never met Brent not sure I want to.:-?

Likely the only way I'll know what happened at Raton this year will be to read it on one of the boards just like you will, unless I happen to visit with some one before hand, but given the long days I'm putting in trying to get hay up at the moment, that's not likely to happen.

Don McDowell

08-01-2008, 11:54 PM

Sounds like a bunch of squatydoodle to me. One of our lurkers, who is also a top shooter in the BPCR game was laughing about some of the egos and personalities involved today. It seems we both have a rather low opinion on some of the "experts" who expound freely upon the electrons of the internet.
If anything was going to be proved, (maybe), each would have to shoot the others rifles and loads, to see who was the better weather, and trigger man.

Yup unless they were given identical rifles , and loads that weren't their own, probably won't be much prooved. If they both had either the same spotter, or no spotter at all would help. Even if something like that did happen like was said above here someplace that'ld still only really tell us about who won that day.[smilie=1:

One thing that does come shining thru on just about any of these internet boards, some of the self inflated choosen few whom , we should all sufficienty avert our eyes from when they pass by, seem to have a real hard time dealing with someone that doesn't run in their clique knowing anything.:(:drinks:

Buckshot

08-02-2008, 02:10 AM

.................Gentlemen. Come on now :-) A person's join date or their number of posts is immaterial, and the newest member is a valued asset to the board. Lest anyone think my bloated number of posts makes me anything special, it doesn't. What it DOES mean is that I used to work 12 hour shifts at night by myself. I was also not responsible for much and could have mailed the job in, but I had to show up as assigned in order to get my paycheck. So I spent a LOT of time on the board :drinks:

So far as the competition goes I'm sure I'll find it very interesting. I sure hope we find out about the guns, their loads and everything else. However I doubt the shots fired will provide a valid statistical population to draw a conclusion from. If they DID compete I'll bet they set an arbitrary number, like 10 rounds at some distance and let it go at that. It will prove that one or the other happened to be better for those 10 rounds.

Competition is a GOOD thing! It causes people to excell. To stretch themselves and maybe do something they haven't done before. It also places a certain amount of mental stress on those competing, which is something additional to deal with besides 'How the wind's running'.

A TRUE winner, a REAL winner will be humble in their accomplishment, as they must realize those also competing did their best, and anyone striving to do their best is also worthy.

.................Buckshot

Echo

08-02-2008, 11:36 AM

'Competition is a good thing' - too true. Competition gives us progress, better components, better equipment, better procedures, better everything. But. The competition is between individual and the course of fire, not between individuals. Marksmanship is similar to golf, bowling, track & field events, and other sports in that one can excell without 'beating' another competitor. Anyone who enters marksmanship competition to 'beat' someone else has a personal problem.
I've won state championships with scores I wasn't particularly proud of, and shot really good scores and won blamed little. I am more proud of my 2622 @ Perry than any championship I won, and 2622 is NOT my high score. It's all competition with oneself against the course of fire.
So. I agree with those who say this is all a publicity effort - either that, or some over-inflated egos at work. Not being familiar with the participants, I have no opinion. The whole thing seems silly...

Idaho Sharpshooter

08-02-2008, 12:51 PM

Idaho Sharpshooter

08-02-2008, 12:56 PM

Black Prince,

since I came on board three months before you did, does that make me more expert than you? Or, better qualified to post an opinion? If you cannot be civil, can I suggest you not post on my threads?

thanks to all who made appropriate responses focused on the post, not bashing other people.

Rich

montana_charlie

08-02-2008, 04:47 PM

Kenny shot in the Pedersoli 5@200 Benchrest match, and put 5 rounds of PP 45-110 into a group that measured 1.336"!

THAT is shooting, my friends.
Agreed.
But, just for the record, the group was fired with a scoped rifle...making it a little more a test of the ammunition, and a bit less a test of the shooter's physical abilities.

A word about Black Prince...
I can see where he may have presumed he was being belittled, marginalized, or made fun of when he read (in a post specifically addressed to himself), "Or at least until the next guy nobody knows shows up and starts to ..........".

If his reply showed him to be a little hot under the collar, that might be understandable. Unfortunately, it is unclear that it was actually Black Prince who was the 'next unknown guy' being referred to.

But, while BP may have relied on some sanguine sarcasm to display his distinct displeasure at a perceived possible put down...you'll notice that he did not resort to direct insults, or name-calling. That would have been the mark of one who cannot debate effectively, nor with civility.

Of course an author may ban any member from posting in threads that he starts...and he may do so for any reason deemed reasonable. But, there might be some value reconsidering the reasonableness of this most recent ban.

CM

James C. Snodgrass

08-02-2008, 05:28 PM

[smilie=1:I was gettin' to think the original title was goin' to be reality for a moment there. I do wander if there has been a scientific test between the GG vs PP and if the PP does come out on top is it worth the hassle? Just curios James

Bullshop

08-02-2008, 05:44 PM

Ok then if it werent black prince that was slighted who was it, me? Gosh I'm speachless.
Ta think somebody noticed.
Well Sir the only reason nobody aint never heard of me is cuz I aint never done nothin.
Dont mean I dont no nothin about sumthin. Just means I have a differant master than them fellas have. A brother once told me show me where you spend most of your time and I will show you you first love. Well Sir I wish to serve only one master. Them fellas what is so well known for thier BP shootin may think they have mastered something but I see it the other way round. My Bible says you can serve only one master and I want it to be my lord Jesus.
Sure I went there and did that and saw what it takes to be popular, not neccessarily good. You can be good without being popular. Anyway I saw it and the price was too high for me, my soul. The bible says to love the lord with all ya got and he dont want to share the top spot with anyone or anything.
So maby I aint so popular but it dont mean I aint experianced and maby just maby if ya listen ta what not so popular folks say ya could still pick up somethin useful.
If it werent me in the first place dont tell me cuz then I will feel even smaller then when we started.
Blessings
BIC/BS

45 2.1

08-02-2008, 06:27 PM

Also, Brent (as big a horse's ass as he is) is not the one badmouthing the other one on BP website forums.

Black Prince you drunk or a doper?

If you cannot be civil, can I suggest you not post on my threads?

Not singling anybody out, but it would be nice if everyone played by the same rules. A pot calling a kettle black doesn't fly.

Don McDowell

08-02-2008, 11:33 PM

there is "no joy in Mudville", Brent reported that MLV beat him, as Brent says "handily".
10-shots at 200 yds offhand.

I would have liked to see a good competitive PP shooter like Kenny Wasserburger take Mike on.
Kenny shot in the Pedersoli 5@200 Benchrest match, and put 5 rounds of PP 45-110 into a group that measured 1.336"! He was using the BACO?Steve Brooks Money Bullet cast at .446" and patched with onionskin (.0015") to take it to .451.

THAT is shooting, my friends.

Rich

I was really happy to hear about Kenny's fantastic international record setting group.
Its a neat experience to be on the firing line with shooters of his, Jimbo Terry, Rick Mortz's , Dennis Wiley and others's level. Even just to watch those guys is a pure joy.

:-D One thing about that deal of Kenny's it should put somewhat of a kaabosh on this " folks that are winners only use Swiss " sillyness.[smilie=1:

Are you still going to try and make it to the Sagebrush this year?

leftiye

08-03-2008, 02:55 AM

I wouldn't ever really like to take Buckshot, or any of the other historians on in any way. But the chronology of the progression from patched round ball to patched conical bullet to grease grooved cast boolit pretty much occurred before smokeless powder was in existence, and black powder contined to be mostly what was used in target/match shooting pretty much until the end of the period (1900). As such, the preference for and progression to grease grooved boolits was evolved at low (black powder) velocity.

Present day powders, and velocities are showing a weakness on the part of the grease grooved boolit at the present higher velocities. Much effort, and special techniques are necessary to achieve good accuracy at high velocity with "naked" GG boolits. Conversely, paper patching seems to me to have been given a rebirth by the insulating and protective qualities of the paper jacket with modern smokeless powders, and velocities.

This not in any way to detract from the role of long disatnce BPCR shooting in defining the superiority of one or the other, but by definition these are also low velocity cartridge/rifle combinations.

Southern Son

08-03-2008, 05:30 AM

10 shots at 200 yards OFFHAND is not going to prove if one type of boolit is better than any other. I think that Kenny Wassenarglkjasdgoihqweflokasdnf's (sorry but I could not be bothered looking up the right spelling) record is actually nothing short of amazing. Scope or not, to hold a group that tight using PP boolits is fantastic, I would have been happy with that accuracy out of my 22/250Imp with a 24X scope and using Berger Match grade J-Boolits.

I think that those of us seeking ideas on accuracy could learn a great deal more reading a thread on Kenny's load and rifle particulars (size of rifling to compare to the size of his patched boolit, that sort of stuff), than reading what loads the other two were using. Especially since the other shoot was done off hand.

EDK

08-03-2008, 03:06 PM

Some of the higher end guys (skill or public recognition level!) can be a little abrasive. I spent some time at the Quigley shoot asking questions and listening to some of them. One gentleman's wife commented (after he had wandered off to do something) about he offended some people with his lack of diplomacy...BUT he paid his dues a long time ago and has a right to his opinions and the experience to back them up. Not a problem 'cause I'm sure I've ruffled a few feathers myself!

There is a clique of recognized silhouette shooters and they unfortunately don't associate with the gong shooters and rank amateurs like myself at the Quigley shoot....which is their loss because I'd like to meet some of them, shake hands, and thank them for the magazine articles and/or products they've helped develop.

Right now it's too d--- hot to cast boolits and I ain't had a day off that it hasn't rained. Rick Kalynuik sent me a flat base plug for my paper patch mould and I want to crank out some boolits for the BIG 50 and do some loading. I may not be able to get the ultimate accuracy out of my paper patch boolits, but I bet I can get them to shoot as well as I can.

You boys have a good day. The little woman wants to go to the new buffet at the casino.

:Fire::cbpour::redneck:

PS Idaho Sharpshooter is my little brother. It's a family tradition to offend the same people! LOL

Idaho Sharpshooter

08-04-2008, 12:30 AM

Scope...no big deal under these conditions. The scope was a 3/4" tube 6X from MVA. You cannot see the bullet holes, and just have to hold on tight and squeeze when the sight picture is the same.

By the way, not being able to spell someone's name, or being unwilling to take 30 seconds is a not too subtle way of degrading them. It shows that you consider them too unimportant to take 30 seconds of your valuable time to get anything right. It ranks right up there with me suggesting that a real man would have a real dog, not that rat-dog you are posing with. Actually, mine is more to the point, since that thing you have is a breed developed to catch and kill rats several hundred years ago. I'm thinking I will post me with my Sharps and the last Bison I killed with it. Now to figure out how to do that.

EdK is my easygoing brother, I'm the in your face one. We served together in Chu Lai for about six months back in 1969 and early 1970.

Idaho Sharpshooter

DLCTEX

08-04-2008, 06:55 AM

My mother raised ten children and had a good rule: "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything".

Southern Son

08-04-2008, 07:45 AM

Idaho, I was the person who could not be arsed looking up Kenny WASSERBURGER's name. If I have offended you, I don't give a crap. If you are going to take a swipe at someone an accuse them of being disrespectful, you could at least take your shot a the right person. SOUTHERN SON is my sign on name, there is no picture of me with a dog, the nearest photo of anyone with a dog it 5 postings above mine, and he don't mention Kenny so I am stuffed if I know how you got us mixed up.

If you had read my post you would realise that I was heaping praise upon Kenny WASSERBURGER's accomplishment, and looking for information on his ammunition and his rifle.

Idaho Sharpshooter

08-04-2008, 12:30 PM

SS,

you're right...the title of prince of the Horse's asses is hereby transferred to you. You don't even have a dog!!

Rich

montana_charlie

08-04-2008, 01:05 PM

I have the opinion that a 6 power magnification is a noticeable advantage when obtaining a reliable sight picture on a 200 yard target. The fact that it can't resolve bullet holes is immaterial since the X-ring is the aiming point. Anybody who would shoot at 'holes' will just spread his group all over the target.

Two members have posted to this thread who have small dogs in their avatars. Either is likely to take umbrage at Idaho Sharpshooter's recent derision of canine friends that he feels do not qualify as a 'real man's dog'.

Makin' fun of a man's wife, horse, or dog don't strike me as a strict adherence to the values contained in The Code Of The West...but some 'westerners' are transplants, anyway.

My vote would have Idaho Sharpshooter using his own dog in his avatar...instead of a 'rifle and roadkill'...so that we could see what a real man would choose. After all, even a gurley man could shoot a fenced in buffalo.

(arrived on Nui Ba Den just in time for the Easter Offensive of 1972)
CM

leftiye

08-04-2008, 01:26 PM

Seems we've got a whole bunch of them south ends of the nothbounds on this thread! Are Y'all havin' a good time? Are Y'all feelin' okay? Dong Tam '68.

SharpsShooter

08-04-2008, 05:11 PM

Some of the higher end guys (skill or public recognition level!) can be a little abrasive. I spent some time at the Quigley shoot asking questions and listening to some of them. One gentleman's wife commented (after he had wandered off to do something) about he offended some people with his lack of diplomacy...BUT he paid his dues a long time ago and has a right to his opinions and the experience to back them up. Not a problem 'cause I'm sure I've ruffled a few feathers myself!

There is a clique of recognized silhouette shooters and they unfortunately don't associate with the gong shooters and rank amateurs like myself at the Quigley shoot....which is their loss because I'd like to meet some of them, shake hands, and thank them for the magazine articles and/or products they've helped develop.

EDK,

All due respect to ya, but paying ones dues doesn't relieve one of the duty of behavior resembling a gentleman. The abrasive, holier than thou, gloating, see what I can do and you can't attitude that pervades the character of some of the "high end" shooters is nothing short of blatant egoism that will turn many new and some older shooters away from a great sport. That is of course just the direction we need not go these days. Any man that spends too much time patting himself on the back only does so because there is no one else around because of his less than humble attitude.

SS

SharpsShooter

08-04-2008, 05:22 PM

SharpsShooter

08-04-2008, 05:37 PM

I have the opinion that a 6 power magnification is a noticeable advantage when obtaining a reliable sight picture on a 200 yard target. The fact that it can't resolve bullet holes is immaterial since the X-ring is the aiming point. Anybody who would shoot at 'holes' will just spread his group all over the target.

CM

MC,

I have to agree with that thought of a 6x being a notable advantage. However, the shooting at holes concept is is a common practice. Many benchrest shooters will fire a single shot into a blank piece of paper and then use that hole as a bullseye. The idea of aim small, miss small applies. I have many sub half inch groups shot with a 22-250 high wall and a 24x scope utilizing this method. Obviously a 6x is far less than the 24 I mentioned, but the 6x does give considerable assistance in producing that repeatable sight picture needed for such precise shooting.

SS

Black Prince

08-04-2008, 09:01 PM

I can't believe yawl stooped so low as to make fun of my squirrel dog. I'm jiss hurt all to hell and gone. I'm shore glad yawl didn't make fun of my hat or my old tractor. That would have REALLY got my goat and I probably wouldn't have been able to sleep tonight!!! :):):)

You can tell it's August and it's hot outside. It makes us all a little short fused.

waksupi

08-04-2008, 09:30 PM

Ya'll play nice, so we don't have to spank anyone.

Bigjohn

08-04-2008, 09:44 PM

My solution for injured ego's; Tomato sauce squeeze bottles at 3 paces. :mrgreen:
On the signal turn and SQUEEZE!

Now on the subject at hand; PP's, CB's & FLGC's have as many advantages as each other and also a number of disadvantages. Each will also have their followers and just an equal number will use whatever suits the situation.

IMHO; the shoot between BD & MLV is inconclusive; a) because of the limited number of rounds fired.

If they want to make a real match out of it; shoot 200 over 4 days or something like that number. Standing, prone, cross sticks, bench, 'Creedmore' and in the field.
IMO, I think the results would be too close to seperate.

IMO, there is a lot more finicky work involved in the preparation of Paper Patched Boolits than the Grease Grooved Boolits. I am not saying that is the sole reason for the demise of PP but we human beings are lazy by nature. Hence we will go the easier route.

That's just my two centaros worth,
John

leftiye

08-05-2008, 12:43 AM

Or a Tabasco drinking contest!

Southern Son

08-05-2008, 10:34 AM

Black Prince, your right, I can't beileve that someone would stoop to bagging a man's choice of dog breed (especially the wrong person's choice). I do believe that the type of person who would, is also the type of person who could only get any affection from a dog if they tied a steak around their neck. Down here, not spelling someones name is no biggy, but bagging his hat is gonna start a blue of monumental proportions. What type of dog is that? Looks like a Foxy or Jack Russell.

Black Prince

08-05-2008, 05:02 PM

I THINK that is a Jack Russell. But I could be a little confused after reading parts of this thread where somebody goes off on a tangent that for the life of me, I don't know how he got there unless he just can't read. It is probably all my fault because I can't spell Kenny's last name even though I never mentioned his name. :-D It was funny though, and once he stepped in it up to his eye brows, he just kept on digging in deeper. You'd think a fella in that situation would know when to quit digging, but somehow, he doesn't. But it was entertaining. :mrgreen: I got a good laugh out of it :-D and I suspect most everyone else did too.

Let’s move on. Fall is coming soon and we’ll all be getting ready for hunting season, so let this just be water under the bridge. Life is too short to do anything else. Well, not really. I’m going back to the lake and go fishing again.

Bullshop

08-05-2008, 05:31 PM

Hay lets see if we can get this burnin again with a back to the point question.
So nobody aint proved nothin bout whats better grease or paper. Them well known fellas flopped on that one. So their both good shots and know how to make powder burn but they aint prooved nothin cept that we can get plumb goofy bout this stuf.
So here ya go, if ya shoot PP what is better ta shoot patched at bore diameter or at groove diameter. Me I already know the truth cuz I am da best at this stuff and if I werent so modest would tell ya all bout it. I just really want ta learn more a them polite ways ta jewg at onenother.
Blessings from the Bull Shop

Black Prince

08-05-2008, 06:50 PM

IF YOU WANT TO KEEP THIS GOING, HOW ABOUT IS THIS A LEGAL CROSS STICK??

http://i38.tinypic.com/24q8qja.jpg

Some of you may recall last year when I said that I gave a Sharps rifle to a fella with 4 children who was a welder and could not afford a rifle. This is the man. That's me sitting right above him watching as the judges decide if they are going to allow those cross sticks. I am happy to report that they did. Course, this ole boy is 6'5" and weighs in at 260 and there is not an once of fat on him because he throws around steel all day as a welder, so the judges may have taken that into consideration. Notice his COPT (Church of the Painful Truth shirt.)

Black Prince

08-05-2008, 07:07 PM

http://i34.tinypic.com/33awavt.jpg
Here is Blacksmith as we call him, shooting the Sharps I gave him. This is his first formal match, although this photo was taken the day before the match at the open sight in session.

Black Prince

08-05-2008, 07:08 PM

http://i36.tinypic.com/2hrjyux.jpg

Early arrivals for the 9 th Annual COPT Shootout

Black Prince

08-05-2008, 07:09 PM

http://i36.tinypic.com/352ou51.jpg
Left handed, read headed, female shooters are even welcome at COPT matches.

http://i36.tinypic.com/16ke0wg.jpg
This 16 year old shooter is participating in his first match using his uncle's borrowed Browning Highwall Traditional Hunter rifle. THIS is the kind of shooters we at COPT try to get interested in our sport and the kind of shooters we invite to our matches. His expression says it all. I believe we have him hooked. Notice Dogwoods blooming in the background. It's a great time of year for a SHOOTOUT!!!

Bullshop

08-05-2008, 09:46 PM

Iduno, does it make weight? Looks like one a dem leavarite rests. Its so dang heavy when ya change stations ya leavarite where it is. Lets face it a big hammer is one a them tools that there are endless uses for. Ya know what they say 3 is a charm but 4 gets the big hammer.
Blessings from the Bull Shop

Southern Son

08-06-2008, 07:01 AM

Isn't there a rule about how far into the ground your sticks can go? He might be alright though, if only one goes into the ground, they might let him go twice as deep.

As to the PP, I really want to try it, but from what I have read, you patch to the groove diameter for smokeless and to the bore for black powder. This means I will have to probably get two molds, cause I want to try it in my 458 Win Mag with smokeless and my 45/70 with black. I have seen some people patching GG boolits and I was going to try and find a way to swage down some boolits for the 458WM. I know a fella with a lathe and he is quite talented, so making a swaging die for my reloading press would not be too hard for him, but I will have to get the metal cause I don't want to bludge all his stock off him.

The mould I was thinking of using for this is my CBE 458550, it only drops a 525 Grain boolit about .4595" (out of 50%WW/50%Pb). To swage it down so it can be patched up to groove, I am thinking that it will have to come down nearly .009". Is that too much to do in a normal reloading press?

Bullshop

08-06-2008, 12:13 PM

southern son
Two points I would like to make on your comments right there.
#1 I think you got it wrong there bro about whats right for black or smokless. I do a right fine job with bore diameter patched with smokless. The more important thingy there to contend with would be boolit hardness and the pressure that will be pushing them. Put more simply if you are using an alloy that is fairly hard and the pressure pushing them is too low to obturate them then you would want to start out at atleast groove diameter or slightly over, just as we do with hard grooved boolits.
If pressure is high enough to opturate the alloy being used then the patched diameter can be less than groove diameter or even less than bore diameter if the pressure/hardness relationship is adjusted to be compatible.
You can learn lots about shooting bore or sub bore diameter boolits by paying attention to the fellas shooting slip fit conicles in their muzzle loaders, and using some of the newer black powder subs that produce somewhat higher pressures than BP.
A know of a test done with a .458" groove barrel shooting .451" diameter jacketed bullets and using Hodgdons T-7 powder producing excellent accuracy.
One little trick I have learned about shooting smokless powder with fairly soft ( say BHN-6 to 7) bore diameter patched boolits is that you have to use a powder that is fast enough in burn rate to build pressure fast enough to obturate quickly enough to make an instant seal. If gas blows by the patch its a gonner. That means no slow smokless powders for bore diameter PP. Powders in burn rate up to about 4227 will work good. Powders slower than 4227, even something as close as 4198 or Rel#7 become iffy.
Holycow, its late, I gotta go to work. sorry bout runnin on there fella.
Blessings
BIC/BS

405

08-06-2008, 01:02 PM

BS Sr.,
Well said! No way can I prove it but the indirect evidence like-- amount of leading, fouling and basic accuracy tends to support exactly what you posted.

For soft lead, paper patched bullet final diameter over black powder in single shot... I've settled on somewhere between bore and groove diameter with bullet seated out so paper patching engraves into rifling.

Black Prince,
Don't care what anyone says--- I like your tastes in wogs and wifles. You should've left the pic up of your Highwall! :mrgreen: Here's one of my favorite lookers.

Black Prince

08-06-2008, 02:25 PM

Dang it 405, you know I'm not supposed to post anything on a thread started by Idaho Shooter and you are going to get me into some REAL trouble.

http://i35.tinypic.com/2148lqt.jpg

We unknown shooters have these unknown highwalls made by unknown companies with names like Browning such as this one. The lever of course, is not a standard Browning "S" type simply because I like this shape better. I kept the Browning logo mark on it when I changed the configuration and it causes some people to have some dam strange looks on their faces when they examine the rifle.

Black Prince

08-06-2008, 02:27 PM

http://i38.tinypic.com/2gxl9uo.jpg
Me on the line for record

http://i38.tinypic.com/rsbxqr.jpg

Here is my squad on the firing line with me in recoil. That is Two Trees who posts here in the black shirt and hat whose standing in front of the line. The sorry rascal tries to take every advantage he can.

http://i33.tinypic.com/5ogmer.jpg

But this is an unknown group (Church of the Painful Truth) whose been putting on this shoot for the past nine years with shooters coming from all over the USA and Canada, so we don't really count as being REAL black powder cartridge shooters. We don't invite the likes of Mike Ventruino and Brent Danielson and that makes us illigitimate I guess.

Gussy

08-06-2008, 03:12 PM

We unknown shooters have these unknown highwalls made by unknown companies with names like Browning such as this one. The lever of course, is not a standard Browning "S" type simply because I like this shape better. I kept the Browning logo mark on it when I changed the configuration and it causes some people to have some dam strange looks on their faces when they examine the rifle.[/QUOTE]

I sure would like to get a better look at that lever!! I have several of those unknown shooters and if I ain't watching my hold closely, they remove a chunk out of my knuckle. Specially the 45-90's.
Gus

Black Prince

08-06-2008, 03:59 PM

Yes sir, I KNOW the feeling and THAT is why that lever on my rifalgun is the way it is. I have a digital camera and will go down to the Bat Cave and take a close up photo of that lever and post it here for you. Just give me a couple of hours.

405

08-06-2008, 04:07 PM

Always enjoy looking at photos. Gotta love the highwalls with the half round barrel- something just classy about that set up. To me the half round looks a little out of place on some other models but on the 1885.... excellent.

Larry Gibson

08-06-2008, 04:32 PM

Or a Tabasco drinking contest!

And to think we got spanked for our "unpleasantries" on the RPM thread! We didn't hold a candle to these boys!

Larry Gibson

Black Prince

08-06-2008, 04:34 PM

http://i37.tinypic.com/14t51k3.jpg

http://i35.tinypic.com/idztck.jpg

That is about as good as I can get it Gussy. I'm not much of a photographer, no.

Mumblypeg

08-06-2008, 06:12 PM

It's just not right to talk bad about a man's dog. Mine has enough sense to wear hearing protection.

Gussy

08-06-2008, 06:14 PM

I'm assuming you did some welding. How did that cast lever weld and what did you use? I've been thinking about just bending that original curl out and flat against the pistol grip with maybe just a tiny curl at the bottom for ease of opening.

I have one of those 1 of 350 or so 45-90's and have been a little reluctant to mess with it. Something about it being worth something to my grandkids when it's it the collector catagory. Right now it's in the shooter catagory as long as I have it!! I did check on the cost of a new lever to work on, $75.00 or so I think it was.

Also, nice wood!!!! My 40-65 is like that too.

Black Prince

08-06-2008, 07:48 PM

Used a MIG welder with solid wire. I did not use the flux core wire because it splattered all to hell and gone. Had no problem with welds. It took a little grinding and polishing with a Dremel tool to make all the seams run together and disappear. I also lightly bead blasted it before putting it in the blueing tank just to make sure there were no lines that could be seen on the finished product. I should not have worried because it came out fine and would have even without the bead blasting.

I think your idea of bending the lever flat would work very nicely. A little curl at the very end would make it fairly easy to work the lever. Or, if you wanted to be VERY KOOL, instead of the curl, you could weld an extension on it and run it just below the pistol grip and terminate it with a ball like the Martini lever. If I had thought of that, I would have done it. By golly, you don't see THAT every day on an 1885.

Hey Mumble, since both of you are wearing hearing protection, which one is you and which one is the dog?

Southern Son

08-07-2008, 03:18 AM

Bullshop, thanks for the tips, I was going to try Mulwex AR2205 in the 458WM. Off the top of my head (according to someone a few pages back there should be a saddle up there) I think that AR2205 is sold by Hogden as 4227, but I am not sure. We don't have a large selection of powders in Oz at the moment, and being out in the boonies, I am limited in what I can get any gunshops to order in. I don't have a hardness tester, but the mix I have on hand that I want to try is 50/50 Pb to WW.

Black Prince, the timber on that rifle is nice, but the tiger stripping just in front of the reciever is hipnotizing. Looking at the rest of the rifle makes me wish that my Spagetti Hiwall had a pistol grip. My rifle shoots fine (heaps better than me), but they just look so much better with a proper pistol grip. I am thinking of making a wooden wedge to go on the wrist so that it at least feels like a pistol grip.

Mumblypeg, I never really looked at your avatar until just now when I read Black Prince's remarks. That is a great photo. I will have to show it to my missus. Both my wife and I are dog lovers, but she goes nuts over photos like that. I am feeling promted now to get her to take a photo of my two dogs with me so I can have a cool avatar like everyone else.

Black Prince

08-07-2008, 08:46 AM

I agree Southern Son. Mumblypeg, post that photo in a BIGGER size here so we can see that good looking dog. Both of them.:) Them ain't no rat dogs boys. Them is REAL dogeux's!!!!

montana_charlie

08-07-2008, 01:00 PM

Black Prince,
Your Hiwall lever is what Pedersoli should have used on their new Hiwalls. Those who have commented on it have complained that it 'looks wrong' with a single trigger...and I guess I have to agree.
http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/default.aspx?item=ArmiCategoriaDettaglio&CategoriaId=300&lang=en

I suppose they will change it with little delay, and I would advise them (if I had any pull) to get with you for a proper configuration.

CM

Black Prince

08-07-2008, 03:04 PM

I looked at purchasing one of those and did not because of exactly what you say CM. I thought they were going to bring out double set triggers later, but when I called and asked when that was scheduled to be in dealers hands, they say that is not planned at all. I can't for the life of me figure why it would be designed the way it is if they were not planning on a double set trigger because to my eyes. it is unbalanced and fugly on an otherwise well done rifle. To each his own, but it's not my own, and until they change it, they can keep it.

RMulhern

08-07-2008, 03:37 PM

Don

"seem to have a real hard time dealing with someone that doesn't run in their clique knowing anything."

You got that right brother!!

Mike Venturino

08-07-2008, 05:10 PM

Might as well get the facts straight. Brent and I had our little shoot INSIDE Steve Garbe's Quart Of Blood match on July 27th, the Sunday before the BPCR Silhouette matches started.

We shot side by side with silhouette legal rifles having iron sights. We each had to shoot inside the match's 3 minute time limit for each round.

IT WAS NOT 10 ROUNDS OFFHAND. Garbe's match consisted of five shots from bench rest on each of four Schuetzen targets at 200 yards and measured by "string." That means that each shot was measured by string from the center of the target to the center of each bullet hole and then all those 20 string measurements were added for score.

During the additional three minute "cleaning period" after each score shot Brent and I visited and I for one enjoyed getting to know him a little. For what its worth, during the week we also wished each other "luck" before the silhouette matches started. One thing we both agreed on during the Quart Of Blood match was that it was BORING. I suggested to Garbe that they change its name to the Watching Paint Dry Match.

And also for what's its worth, I like all dogs except those that try to bite me. We have six around this place now. They range from 11 pounds to 110 pounds

My best to all of you.
Mike Venturino

BrentD

08-07-2008, 05:17 PM

What Mike doesn't include is that he won easily. I never even had to look for the targets to be scored.

And yep, that is one BORING match. It is more like a nap. At 8 am in the morning, I didn't need it. But god it was boring! That is a total of 6 minutes per shot! Call it The Old Geezers' Nap Match...

6 dogs? We have only 3, with one "on order" so to speak. I hope you bring one of your's next time.

Brent

Mike Venturino

08-07-2008, 05:28 PM

Brent: I'd love to bring my big collie with me next time. He goes to all the Montana shoots with me. Maybe if gas prices drop by next year I can come with him instead of three of us crowding together in one rig to come to Raton.

Six dogs may be explained by the fact that my wife works part time at the local animal shelter and does all their photography. Five of the six came thataway.

I'm still trying to get brass cleaned up after last week.

dromia

08-07-2008, 05:29 PM

Welcome to these boards Mike. :drinks:

Lots of knowledge, experience, practice and opinion to get ones teeth into here.

Learn and share is the name of the game. :-D

Black Prince

08-07-2008, 05:29 PM

Thanks fellas, for the update and the civil way you described it here. It is an example of the way we sholud all conduct ourselves and a tribute to both of you.

BrentD

08-07-2008, 05:35 PM

Mike I'm on my last batch of brass in the ultrasound. Should be done tonight.

I was hoping your collie would be there because the photo you posted of him once is darn handsome. Sure were a lot of pocket puppies at the matches though. I was surprised that. Maybe T would let me take off with Ande next year.

BTW, there is a Vickers watercooled on display here in Story City. It's not for sale though.

cbrick

08-07-2008, 05:50 PM

Mike & Brent, it's great to see you both posting here. Hope you both continue to share your vast experience in the various forums here on cast boolits.

Looking forward to reading and learning from you in the future.

Rick

Mike Venturino

08-07-2008, 07:20 PM

Brent: After leaving him behind for over a week he has stuck to me like glue since I got back. He's the easiest dog to travel with I've ever had - never once barked in a motel room.

Why don't you just come on out to Montana and shoot with us in one of our summer matches like the Missoula Regional or State Championship. The Missoula silhouette range is about the nicest I've ever seen and the Butte range may be even harder than Raton.

cbrick, Black Prince and dromia: Thanks for the welcomes.

MLV

BrentD

08-07-2008, 09:41 PM

Mike, it all depends on time. I need to go back out to Wyoming again to chase pack rats, but next summer I am supposed to be in Alaska and Argentina in addition to any place I want to shoot.

The best dog I ever had went to 4 different universities with me - every day.

Brent

Mike Venturino

08-08-2008, 10:16 AM

Bullshop

08-08-2008, 02:13 PM

Mike & Brent
Just want to be part of the wellcoming commity!!! This BPC stuff is sure to hold more interest for many now.
Now I should introduce myself. I am Bull Shop, caster of buterous boolits for the masses and provider of many wonderous thingys for brothers of the silver streem.
Welcome, share, enjoy!!!
Blessings on ya
bic/bs

MT Gianni

08-08-2008, 02:56 PM

Alaska to Argentina in one summer - that ought to be interesting! I've heard that Argentina has the most beautiful women on the planet, but I've never been there to check it out.
MLV
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I thought that Athens beat Buenos Aires by far for it's sights.
Welcome to both of you, Gianni.

BrentD

08-08-2008, 04:38 PM

Mike,
Having lived in Norway (Oslo) for a while, I can't imagine Argentina could make good on that claim, but I sure would like to see them try!

Brent

Mike Venturino

08-08-2008, 04:46 PM

When Yvonne and I were in Sweden some years back she suddenly stopped in the middle of the street and stomped her foot.

I said, "What's wrong with you."

She said, "I hate this place. All the women are beautiful!"

I actually thought New Zealand might have been better in that regard; perhaps because of the attire, or lack thereof, on the beaches.

Oh well, you guys take care.
MLV

onceabull

08-08-2008, 05:17 PM

Mike V. noticed the NZ gals~!~ Good eye,sir.... There 's a greeneyed lass in Hokitika, that ,despite JeffinNZ's comment on the place,will make wish you could stay !!! Onceabull

tom barthel

08-08-2008, 06:40 PM

Alaska to Argentina in one summer - that ought to be interesting! I've heard that Argentina has the most beautiful women on the planet, but I've never been there to check it out.

I've saving my nickels and dimes to go back to Iwo Jima in 2010 with a side trip to Saipan and Tinian.

Take care.
MLV

Most beautiful women? I'd say it's a toss up between Texas and Oklahoma. There are beautiful women everywhere. Walk through ANY mall in Tulsa, Oklahoma and be amazed. I was very biased toward a pretty LADY from the Fort Worth, Texas area. I also know some beauties from El Paso,Texas.

Bret4207

08-09-2008, 08:53 AM

Youse guys got to hit the Walmart in Ogdensburg NY on welfare check day. Beautiful doesn't begin to describe the women. In fact beauty doesn't even enter into it![smilie=1:

Welcome to both of you.:drinks:

PatMarlin

08-17-2008, 11:35 PM

Left handed, read headed, female shooters are even welcome at COPT matches.

Well I'll be Black Prince...

You finally got a picture of that redheaded WeatherBy on cast boolits... :mrgreen:

Now I need to get him up here to help me shoot some coyotes... :Fire:

Black Prince

08-18-2008, 10:21 AM

http://i36.tinypic.com/vo4eir.jpg
On the firing line at the 9 th Annual COPT Shootout. He is also in the second photo above with Blacksmith.

http://i38.tinypic.com/mc88k6.jpg
Here he is trying to win friends and influence people at the 9th Annual.

http://i37.tinypic.com/25yxc1k.jpg
Right in the middle of things, as he usually is.

http://i34.tinypic.com/296c414.jpg
We have two redheads. The other one is female, left handed, from Australia, and as mean as that Copperhead he's holding above. You really should have been there Pat. We didn't believe some of those things he told about you, but then just maybe . . .

And what kind of a good looking dog is that in your profile photo? Unusual markings and blue eyes on a dog. I've kept Gordon Setters since 1965 and at one time, had 15 of them. Good dogs have always been a big part of my life, so I take an interest in them when I see one like that one in your profile photo.