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View Full Version : Jacketed Velocity with Cast Bullets?



Boomer Mikey
07-29-2008, 07:09 PM
OK guys,

Let's say we want to make the hardest, toughest cast boolits we can for use in maximum velocity loads for 22 caliber, thru 30 caliber rifle applications.

Is this range of calibers too wide for a single alloy? Too narrow?

What's the perfect alloy to reach jacketed bullet velocities and remain tough enough to stay together on a targets between 50 and 500 or more yards away?

How should we heat treat our bullets? Is watter dropping good enough? Is oven heating and quenching in ice water the best way?

What about bullet lubes? How do we know when to switch lubes and what to try?

Let's talk about using perfect bullets for our applications. Let's set aside twist rates, chamber, and barrel conditions; although these are never perfect, lets say they are perfect for this discussion. We also have the perfect bullet mold in a boolit design that meets our needs, you provide the optimal size and weight for our discussion.

Let's concentrate on boolit alloy and lubes to get the job done between 2000 and 2500 fps, 2500 and 2750 fps... 3000+ fps.

This is a huge undertaking but we're newbies and we don't want to spend 20 or more years finding out why we can't reach the jacketed velocities some of our experts do... show us how to get it done with a systematic approach if there is one.

Why can't we buy a book that answers these questions?

When will Glen's book be available?

Boomer :Fire:

jonk
07-29-2008, 07:25 PM
Good question! 2100 fps with gas check AND filler is about my max with water quenched wheel weights and feelix lube; never tried pure linotype.

Bret4207
07-29-2008, 08:04 PM
Might as well ask for the winning Lotto numbers too.....

shooter93
07-29-2008, 08:09 PM
There is/was a book titled jacketed bullet speeds with Cast Bullets that Colorado Custom used to publish....it's very interesting. Hard alloys....bullets grooved especially for paper patch and different lubes. He worked mostly with 30 cal and above but got matching velocities and accuracy as good as the test rifle shot with jacketed. 22's are going to be tough though. I don't know if it's still in print but you may find a copy.

docone31
07-29-2008, 08:24 PM
Water quenched Wheel Weights, paper patched.
Should match velocity at the weight/speed.

runfiverun
07-29-2008, 09:30 PM
mikey when you get up over 2200fps you gotta go into what works in your rifle.
it isn't the velocity it is the accuracy,at velocity.
there are several ways to get hard boolits,w'quench then h-treat,
alloys [and not just adding antimony] sometimes less is more.
but you gotta start with proper boolit fit to your rifles throat,and ability to carry enough
lube to get you down the bbl.

HABCAN
07-29-2008, 11:50 PM
BMikey, funny coincidence: I was on the ranges today doing just that.

My aim was to simply substitute boolits vs. the expensive jacketed beauties (which are approaching $0.80/EACH here now in Kanuckistan, when and if your HS will allow their export to our wholesalers!) and load them on top of my standard powder loads. I was willing to accept a decrease in accuracy to a max. of 4MOA in the M1, .303 Brit and 7x57mm, thinking SHTF situation = NO bullets available anywhere. The 7x57 will shoot match bullets into 5/8", the M1 CAN do an inch, but the .303 #5 can't do better than 1-1/4" with match, off the bench at 100yds.

PLEASE UNDERSTAND, THIS IS A WORK-IN-PROGRESS.
I have not YET chronographed the lead load velocities, but j-words ran 2400/2700fps in those rifles with good accuracy at 500-600yds. on our 4MOA gongs, and even on our 800yd. steel 'buffalo' and our 1000m 'man'.

This past winter I have been hard at it casting boolits, sizing at various sizes, shooting them in the basement, etc. and have found that:
1. Sizing diameter is THE one most important criterion, and THROAT size is more important than bore size, so slug the REAR end of the barrel, and use the largest boolit that will chamber.
2. Water-dropped boolits from straight wheelweights, gas-checked, aged 30 days minimum, give NO leading in my rifles at these powder charge weights. LEE Liquid Alox tumble-lubing seems to be adequate lubrication, although some tests have had Lyman Alox first, then TL on top. However this MAY be unnecessary.
3. The LEE C312-185-R beagled, works, but not as well as the LEE CTL312-160-2R sized .309 OR .311 for the Garand and .314 for the Lee-Enfield.
4. Both the LEE 7mm boolit and the RCBS 7mm 168gr. cruise missile work just fine, with the edge going to the big RCBS slug beyond 200yds. in the winds we have here. (The other day I was holding 5' of right windage @ 500yds. for a 'breeze' from 3 o'clock!)

Now here's a strange thing. SO FAR, I have not been able to reduce the 25m group size with ANY of these loads below ~1-1/2" or 6MOA, BUT
WHEN I DON'T GOOF UP these lead-boolit full-power loads will reliably smack our gongs out to 600yds and they don't do too badly all the way out to 1000 if I have a good spotter! I think they need some downrange distance to stabilize?

Anyway, I thought I would post these VERY EARLY results of my progress so far, FYI. I'll be chronoing later this month and there is a LOT to do yet.

So in answer to your question, yes, it SEEMS possible to achieve what we both want.

Murphy
07-30-2008, 12:30 AM
HABCAN,

I'll be keeping in touch with you about your experimentation going for higher velocity loads.

It has always interested me, and my only experience with cast boolits in rifles has been with the great old 30/30 Winchester.

I know and understand that many say not to worry so much about velocity as opposed to boolit placement. I agree with that statement and fully understand. On the other hand, why not push for the upper realm and see what we can learn? My thinking is the flatter the trajectory, the less margin of error. Why not put it to use in our favor?

Thanks,

Murphy

HABCAN
07-30-2008, 12:42 AM
Murph, if I get too wrapped up in this and forget to post progress, just eMail me any questions, please.

I do NOT claim to have discovered anything, but I AM concerned about your next gubmint somehow restricting the shooting sports, and one way would be to nationalize or whatever bullet production "for the War Effort". Therefore, I wanted to come up with a homegrown substitute capable of minute-of-helmet, and so far it seems possible. I wouldn't like to be me being shot at by me with the loads so-far developed, and I'll be tweaking them over time.

And yes, anyone can cut velocities in half and get MOA accuracy with boolits, but that has no interest for me. 4MOA is good enuff! Most deer are taken under 200 yards, right? WTH are you shooting at, anyway? Save the j-words for shots requiring surgical precision. Riflemen are MADE and it takes practice, practice we can afford!

Boomer Mikey
07-30-2008, 01:23 AM
BMikey, funny coincidence: I was on the ranges today doing just that...

So in answer to your question, yes, it SEEMS possible to achieve what you want.

I look forward to hearing more about your project as my personal interests in this regard are very similar; I'll bet most of us are interested in what works for you in the M1 and service rifles.

I've never been a high power participant and the concept of bullets becoming stable or "going to sleep" over distance is new to me.

HABCAN is doing the work to get it done for his needs; I appreciate you sharing your findings with us.

Thanks HABCAN,

Boomer :Fire:

Boomer Mikey
07-30-2008, 01:31 AM
I believe most of us understand that bullet hardness is used to control obturation... too much obturation causes excessive friction to the point where lubrication fails and leading begins. Harder - stronger bullets can be pushed faster with higher pressures; with adequate lubrication, pressure and velocity can be increased to the point where deformation occurs resulting in loss of accuracy (the alloy yield point.) In other words, the bullet changes shape or slumps over. Lubricants maintain a friction preventing film between the bullet and the barrel and gas checks reduce friction by reducing obturation of the bullets base, controlling lubricant loss and providing an efficient gas seal... all of which improve velocity potential.

Reminder: we have a great bullet of adequate design that fits our throat and groove diameter of our perfect barrel. So, what else can we do to improve velocity potential?

1. Make stronger bullets
2. Make bullets with an alloy that has a lower coefficient of friction
3. Use better lubricants
4. Use powders that develop a lower pressure peak and longer peak duration

What else?

I'm not the expert here... these are my old fart, under-educated SWAG's.

Boomer :Fire:

Boomer Mikey
07-30-2008, 03:39 AM
Might as well ask for the winning Lotto numbers too.....

Now wait a minute Bret,

I have this book "Jacketed Performance With Cast Bullets" written by Veral Smith that says: " 3000 fps and higher velocities with excellent hunting accuracy is quite easy to obtain from standard sporting rifles."

Veral states that the requirements are:
1. A reasonably smooth barrel and a caliber capable of somewhat over the desired cast bullet velocity using jacketed bullets, preferably 270 or larger bore diameter.
2. Bullets properly fitted and at least 21 bhn hardness for 30 cal. at velocities to 3000 fps. Slightly harder bullets are required for the same velocity as caliber becomes smaller.
3. LBT Blue lube (as of this writing -1984-.) Veral also states that M&N lube will work in cooler weather just fine. (I have plenty of both lubes and use LBT Blue but there may be other lubes as-good-as or better nowadays.)
4. Of course, an LBT bullet design cut for the gun of interest.
5. Powder type suitable for the velocity with cast bullets.

I have another book "The Beartooth Bullets Technical Guide" written by Marshall Stanton that's a little more conservative in stating that reasonable velocity expectations using 21 bhn gas-checked bullets, which will give excellent accuracy are:
.22- .264 Calibers 2,600 fps
.270- .45 Calibers 2,800 fps

I believe that with a little help from our resident experts we can produce the winning numbers, or at least come to a consensus about what can be achieved and how to do it.


Boomer :Fire:

adam38654
07-30-2008, 05:01 AM
I'm in guys.

I will be trying to reach upto 2,500fps in a variety of 7.62x39 SKS's and AK's with chrome and non chromed bores from 11"(non chrome),16"(chromed),16"(non chromed),20or22"(non chromed).



up to 3,000fps in a multitude of .223's from Bushmasters to Rem700's and a Steyr Scout with an arrange of barrel lengths from 10.5",16",20",and 22" with twist rates from 1/9,1/8,to1/7 .

I think the chromed lined bores will be smoother and help. I will be trying all kinds of different powders and lubes to prevent leading an different sizing and gas checks.Gonna have to get lots of different moulds to see which bullet configurations can handle the highest velocity not to mention how picky different guns can be in the first place.

What are the best hard lubes for high velocities? I am considering TL over hard lube drive rings and will experiment with taping also. :lovebooli

45 2.1
07-30-2008, 08:03 AM
Veral states that the requirements are:
1. A reasonably smooth barrel and a caliber capable of somewhat over the desired cast bullet velocity using jacketed bullets, preferably 270 or larger bore diameter.
2. Bullets properly fitted and at least 21 bhn hardness for 30 cal. at velocities to 3000 fps. Slightly harder bullets are required for the same velocity as caliber becomes smaller. Boolit shape and style enter in here also. Veral goes over this in his book.
3. LBT Blue lube (as of this writing -1984-.) Veral also states that M&N lube will work in cooler weather just fine. (I have plenty of both lubes and use LBT Blue but there may be other lubes as-good-as or better nowadays.) Several lubes now have this potential: LBT Blue, Beartooth, Lars Carnuba Red and some custom jobs from members here.
4. Of course, an LBT bullet design cut for the gun of interest.
This helps, but some standard commercial designs that fit do as well.
5. Powder type suitable for the velocity with cast bullets. Ahh, a big can of worms rears its head. A powder compatible with making small round groups, not just getting it to velocity is the answer here. Powders are not equal in this regard, nor is their use.

I have another book "The Beartooth Bullets Technical Guide" written by Marshall Stanton that's a little more conservative in stating that reasonable velocity expectations using 21 bhn gas-checked bullets Useing Marshalls methodology, alloy and lube..........., which will give excellent accuracy are:
.22- .264 Calibers 2,600 fps
.270- .45 Calibers 2,800 fps

I believe that with a little help from our resident experts we can produce the winning numbers, or at least come to a consensus about what can be achieved and how to do it.

Alloy is a big bugaboo here. Boolit fit is actually of great importance, moreso than you think. Just assuming it fits doesn't cut it. Magic marker that unlubed but sized boolit up and set it firmly up in the throat, then remove it and see just how little is engraved or touched and you will get an idea of what i'm saying. Most of the conventional stuff you see here will work, provided EVERYTHING else is correct (or doesn't get disregarded). If it isn't, you already know the dismal, poor results. Everything except methodology and alloy has been presented many times on this site by me and others. We left out some of those two factors and they do make a difference. Those two factors need to be taught on a one to one basis to get them correct for the way you reload.

pdawg_shooter
07-30-2008, 08:13 AM
Any alloy over 15BHN will work fine....IF you paper patch the bullet.

45 2.1
07-30-2008, 10:05 AM
I believe most of us understand that bullet hardness is used to control obturation... Hmmm............ Thats not the way I look at that.

Reminder: we have a great bullet of adequate design that fits our throat and groove diameter of our perfect barrel. Really? Does it fit so well it doesn't have to obturate? Take a look at fixed ammunition versus breach seating for accuracy results. You will find that almost all of the breech seat guys win, and they usually cam the tapered boolit into the rifling origin. That is something you can't do with fixed ammunition until the cartridge is fired and the great possiblility of missalignment can occur. So, I would think that the perfect boolit would touch as much of the contact surfaces its adjacent to and leave no slop (or unfilled diameter to obturate in) . Then when it gets hit with pressure, it will obturate evenly, foreshorten some and not be out of line when it actually gets going down the bore, each and every time..........................


So, what else can we do to improve velocity potential?

1. Make stronger bullets That works, providing the above occurs!
2. Make bullets with an alloy that has a lower coefficient of friction Slicky lubes and this type of thing often produce poor accuracy. You need the correct amount of resistance to get the powder you use up to the proper ignition pressure so it burns uniformly. This is one of the things that prompted the use of jacketed bullets when smokeless powders came into use.
3. Use better lubricants Yes, those suitable for accuracy.
4. Use powders that develop a lower pressure peak and longer peak duration Not always what you think here. there is a powder for the cartridge and rifling that will produce excellent accuracy. You just have to find it. If it doesn't produce round groups, TRY ANOTHER.

What else? When you ask the proper question (which indicates you understand the preceding information). Otherwise keep asking questions about what you don't understand. This is just like school, one thing builds upon another. The basics are already in the archives and very few understood what was said then. And NO, this isn't BS. If you think it is, then your going to miss out.

BTW, very good results HABCAN, keep 'em coming

jhalcott
07-30-2008, 10:40 AM
HMMM! This discussion COULD explain why one shooting session gets me a tiny group. Then ,the NEXT session has me pulling hair out.(not neccessarily my OWN!) A small change in reloading procedure shouldn't cause such a large change in results , should it?

VTDW
07-30-2008, 10:59 AM
IMHO, bore prep, careful reloading practices and competent casting along with boolit fit are a must to achieve accuracy with velocity with cast boolits. It has only taken me 2 years to obtain the results below. Yep, I am pretty much a nubie.

My alloy is 50/50 WW/Lino and water dropped for 28Bnh. I think I may cut the Lino, add shot and see what a Lyman #2 alloy will do.

I get 2,400+ with a RD 265 gr boolit out of my .444S with several powders and great accuracy at 100 yd and beyond.

I am now up to 2,869 fps with Dutch's 210 gr (200 with my alloy) out of my .444T with wonderful accuracy using VV N-120 powder with superb accuracy out to 200 yd and beyond.

I am hitting a bit over 2,400fps with the RD 165 (170 with my alloy ) in my .308MX, with so-so accuracy (100 yd) but getting closer, and :roll: hit a tad over 2,800 fps for one shot only[smilie=1:. Re-7. N-133 is giving excellent accuracy at just over 2,200 fps. For now I have to use the factory Hornady ammo for hunting and expect to have a good boolit/powder combo by hunting season.

All my bores are slugged and firelapped. Everything is gas checked and lubed with World Famous Felix Lube and sized .002over bore size. No need for obturation here. I seat my boolits .003-.005 off the lands. So far, I have had no bore leading at all and this is after several hundred rounds thru all of the above mentioned rifles. The Ranch Dog boolits are made specifically for Marlin rifle chambers and everyone I know is experiencing good to outstanding results with boolits dropped from his molds.

I have no clue how Dutch came up with such a great boolit but I think he had to do an additional Group Buy for this mold!!

Here's to ya Dutch:drinks:

Dave:castmine:

Boomer Mikey
07-30-2008, 12:53 PM
One of the most interesting things about this forum is the variety of solutions and opinions presented by our resident experts; I believe that blindly accepting a single point of view is closing our mind to knowledge. I openly welcome opposing points of view to my way of thinking.

"I believe most of us understand that bullet hardness is used to control obturation..." 45 2.1: "Hmmm............ Thats not the way I look at that."

Understanding fundamental cast bullet mechanics is essential for using them effectively.

Veral's trio of bullet mechanics are:
1. Bullet construction, hardness and design
2. Lubrication
3. Bore condition

I'm a newbie; when Veral Smith says that bullet hardness is used to control obturation I believe him... he wrote the book.

45 2.1 is our boolit designer, the bullet VTDW is raving about is one of his many designs; when he talks I listen... How do you look at bullet hardness for obturation control Bob?


Boomer :Fire:

BABore
07-30-2008, 01:32 PM
I believe most of us understand that bullet hardness is used to control obturation... Hmmm............ Thats not the way I look at that.

Reminder: we have a great bullet of adequate design that fits our throat and groove diameter of our perfect barrel. Really? Does it fit so well it doesn't have to obturate? Take a look at fixed ammunition versus breach seating for accuracy results. You will find that almost all of the breech seat guys win, and they usually cam the tapered boolit into the rifling origin. That is something you can't do with fixed ammunition until the cartridge is fired and the great possiblility of missalignment can occur. So, I would think that the perfect boolit would touch as much of the contact surfaces its adjacent to and leave no slop (or unfilled diameter to obturate in) . Then when it gets hit with pressure, it will obturate evenly, foreshorten some and not be out of line when it actually gets going down the bore, each and every time..........................


That's what Bob was getting at in the paragraph following the one you just quoted.

If the bullet fits, precisely, then is doesn't need to obturate. You can drive it fast whether hard or soft. The farther you get away from that precise fit, the harder you need to go to keep it from obturating. Obturation can be both good and bad. It all depends on how the pressure is applied and when. A poor bullet fit, soft alloy, and fast pressure rise, will allow the bullet to obturate unevenly. This just about guarantees poor accuracy. Harder alloy is just a Bandaid fix. Sometimes it works, sometimes it don't. The faster (higher pressure) you try to make it go, the more likely it will start to give (obturate). Now your right back to where you started. You can do alot of dumb things to a precisely fit bullet and still make it shoot. You can make the same bullet be simply amazing when you do all the things right. Harder alloys can also be achieved through many different methods. I'm not talking about whether it's HT'd or not, but though different elements.

carpetman
07-30-2008, 01:33 PM
You can read with a candle. Are you going to get the performance out of a candle that you do an electric light? It's fun to experiment, but I think a cast bullet is going to take a back seat to a jacketed bullet. You can make a soft nose and maybe get a little more performance,but I dont think you'll match the mushroom of a jacketed. Some say use a large enough cal you don't need expansion---you already have a big hole. Many say and I think they are about right that cast hunting bullets start in the 40's???? It makes sense to use a big ol heavy bullet,but does rainbow come to mind? I did nothing special--wheelweights water dropped felix lube and got good accuracy at 2900 fps out of my .243. But it lacks size. Tried it on a spike buck with dismal performance--not a drop of blood found. I think with a jacketed bullet, the fun would have been over and a sharp knife needed for the job ahead. You cannot temper the alloies commonly used for casting and heat treating and water quenching etc is not an exact---usually just a guess and a guess as to how deep it goes and at what period of time. Not saying you cant hunt with cast. I know, ask the buffaloes. In my books if jacketed bullets don't offer more,why did they catch on? If you push a cast to the limit---someone can push a jacketed and will get more. Sure,cast are cheaper, but if I'm going out of state and the hunt is going to cost me a lot of money,the price of a few jacketed bullets is a very small expense. Like taking long steps and ripping a $20 pair of pants to save wear and tear on a $10 pair of shoes. I hunt with jacketed and use cast for plinking and varmints. Hunting with cast is nothing new or something that hasnt been done---but I think there is a better way nowdays.

Boomer Mikey
07-30-2008, 01:54 PM
[QUOTE=BABore;372374]That's what Bob was getting at in the paragraph following the one you just quoted. QUOTE]

Thanks for the Ahhh Haaa moment Bruce!

My pea brain required your comments to put 45 2.1's comments into context.

Boomer :Fire:

45 2.1
07-30-2008, 01:58 PM
Veral's trio of bullet mechanics are:
1. Bullet construction of wheel weight metal, hardness oven heat treated and drawn to a certain hardness if that is your want and design as detailed in his book
2. Lubrication LBT as per his book
3. Bore condition clean and lead free, hopefully


How do you look at bullet hardness for obturation control Bob?
Basically, you need to have a hard oversize boolit that fits your rifle if you don't have obturation at some point. Veral was basically shooting a solid, unless drawn (large range of drawing temps for specific hardnesses) which would effect velocity potential useing his methods. Hardness is a relative term, how hard and where. Several have shown that you can water drop a lead boolit and get a harder outside than the inside, sort of a jacketed type boolit. Those expand like premium jacketed bullets. Verals stuff was limited in these regards, but was very cutting edge at the time. Hard boolits don't usually obturate much. Commercial molds usually don't fit our barrel throats too well either. Just how do you get an undersize solid boolit to shoot well. By useing a slow powder as outlined by Veral. He got good hunting accuracy doing that to. Did he get accuracy rivaling any of the groups posted by some members (BABore and 357 Max.) here. I'm doubtfull on that. Exactly how hard does a boolit have to be to shoot well and what can you do with it then. I know of several alloys that give spectacular high speed performance (expensive to buy I can tell you) since they are specifically formulated to do that, but they don't obturate at all do to extreme (for us) hardness. If I want a high speed boolit, I want to hunt with it and have expansion, not punch holes in targets. For me a solid is basically worthless unless meant for a semi-auto to duplicate military ball loads. Now, what do I want the boolit to do (besides being jacketed accurate) and how fast and in what do I want to deliver it. Those things determine how hard I want the boolit and the method to harden it if I want expansion when it gets there.

Its simply amazing that three posts can happen while your answering one.................

Boomer Mikey
07-30-2008, 02:04 PM
Carpetman, please don't rain on my parade.

Apparently you've accomplished this; but I haven't, and it's something I've always wanted to do.

There's this great bunch of guys here that are interested in doing the same for their own reasons and more good guys willing to help us do it.

Boomer :Fire:

BABore
07-30-2008, 02:04 PM
[QUOTE=BABore;372374]That's what Bob was getting at in the paragraph following the one you just quoted. QUOTE]

Thanks for the Ahhh Haaa moment Bruce!

My pea brain required your comments to put 45 2.1's comments into context.

Boomer :Fire:

Hey, not a problem. We all know you Kalifornia guys are just getting up, slippin into yer Docker's, cutoff's, and tie-die's and getting down that first thimble of cappacino.:-D

BABore
07-30-2008, 02:25 PM
If I want a high speed boolit, I want to hunt with it and have expansion, not punch holes in targets. For me a solid is basically worthless unless meant for a semi-auto to duplicate military ball loads. Now, what do I want the boolit to do (besides being jacketed accurate) and how fast and in what do I want to deliver it. Those things determine how hard I want the boolit and the method to harden it if I want expansion when it gets there. [/B]

Its simply amazing that three posts can happen while your answering one.................

If your thinking only of a pointed, FMJ style projectile, then I agree. Only be good on paper and cats. But, what if said hard bullet has a meplat? Then high velocity and hydraulics come into play.

Them three posts snuck in there cause youse old and slow. Haa!:-D

carpetman
07-30-2008, 03:07 PM
Boomer Mikey --Ok as per your request, I'll not rain on your parade. There really is a Santa Claus, and an Easter Bunny and A tooth fairy. ( I'll slightly sprinkle--not rain--and warn you on the tooth fairy,putting your dentures under the pillow wont fetch you any $$) Yes, I know, Veral Smith wrote a "book" titled Jacketed Performance with Cast Bullets-- I call it a pamphlet but thats another post. Now why on earth would a guy that makes and sells molds and sells bullet lube try to promote that idea? As I stated my experience hunting with cast is very limited. I have,however, read many posts where an animal was shot until it dropped -sausage on the hoof --and my jacketed experience I think most would have dropped on the first shot. Don't know till it was tried--doesn't always work the same. Certainly the percentage is higher and I do believe game animals deserve to be put away humanely. I think jacketed fit that bill better.

45 2.1
07-30-2008, 03:08 PM
If your thinking only of a pointed, FMJ style projectile, then I agree. Only be good on paper and cats. But, what if said hard bullet has a meplat? Then high velocity and hydraulics come into play.

Them three posts snuck in there cause youse old and slow. Haa!:-D

I've got things that do a bang-up job of expanding on big hairy things. I'm not one to give the big meplat version many kudos when i've got something better. Hard FMJ types of boolits make for semi-auto military duplications and have a limited use on "other" things. Hydraulics play out with range and only polk holes then. As far as age is concerned, I could quote something you said on that, but you wouldn't like that either, hee hee. My problem was trying to state something I already said another way.:mrgreen:

Boomer Mikey
07-30-2008, 03:32 PM
OK, Now that I have a better understanding of bullet fit and hardness relationships I would like to explore a hard cast solid to replace FMJ ball projectiles in military service semi-auto rifles at both extremes... 308 and 223 M1/M1A and AR-15 style applications.

The best possible scenario is to provide ballistics duplicating military ball ammo with cast bullet loads. While match grade accuracy isn't a priority over reliable function in these rifles it's desirable.

Do we need anything other than watter dropped 21 bhn bore riding bullets for the 308/7.62's? What about the 223"s?

Us Kalifornia guys may be strange but we got rich by running a bunch of group buys too!

Boomer :Fire:

runfiverun
07-30-2008, 11:37 PM
you don't need the whole thing hard cast just the outside..
for an uberhard boolits there are many ways to get it.
but high speed accuracy and hunting boolits are really not the same game.
even in the jacketed world.
but pretty hard, really straight,and a lube with just enough slippery in it to get you down
the bbl. is the first priorities.

adam38654
07-31-2008, 03:32 AM
It seems like a bullet with a longer nose/orgive would lead less due to less meat touching the rifling as long as you can get enough lube on them to make it to the end of the barrel.

Those type of bullets are the least accurate in cast form though.

45 2.1
07-31-2008, 07:21 AM
I would like to explore a hard cast solid to replace FMJ ball projectiles in military service semi-auto rifles at both extremes... 308 and 223 M1/M1A and AR-15 style applications.
FMJ type profiles depend entirely on fit for accuracy. Lymans 311413 boolit has been cussed and praised at 600 yards. Get a well cut mold that actually is big enough and it shoots pretty good, get one that is undersize and its trash.

Do we need anything other than watter dropped 21 bhn bore riding bullets for the 308/7.62's? What about the 223"s?
You might try Pacos alloy and casting method or start looking at high speed babbit (or various types) as an alloy component. I think you really want something that is harder than what you stated.

Boomer Mikey
07-31-2008, 02:55 PM
It looks like the 311413 mold has been discontinued.

I have the RCBS 30-165-SIL and 30-200-SIL and I've been thinking about ordering a Lyman 311672. I'll be on the lookout for a 311413 mold too.

After reading several articles about cast 22 caliber bullets in everything from the 22 Hornet to the 22-250 I ordered Lyman 225415, 225438, and RCBS 22-055-SP molds (long ago). The general consensus of what I read was to size bullets 0.002"- 0.003" over bore diameter and that best results were obtained with nose first sizing if required. There's a thorough article in the "Art of bullet casting" DVD set about reaching 2700 - 2800 fps with 1" 22-250 groups in two rifles By Carl Johnson that goes through alloy performance, powder selection, bullet and case preparation and the methodology Carl used.

I'm going to try an alloy of 80/15/5 WW/Shot/Lino to see if I can make 28-30 bhn bullets for this application that are hard but not brittle. If I had pure lead on hand I woulld use it instead of wheel weights.

Boomer :Fire:

jhalcott
07-31-2008, 03:09 PM
I got a hat full of bullets some years ago that were cast from Alumaloy. This is a coating for metals,it's made of aluminum and zinc alloys. They had been cast by previous employees during down times. I tried them in a beat up milsurp rifle. They didn't shoot worth a hoot at low velocity. When shot at normal jacketed speeds they were at least as accurate as the jacketed. Problem was they would break in pieces on impact! Very large surface expansion but NO depth of penetration. Fouling was HARD to remove also. I no longer work there and the plating work is done out of state now.

runfiverun
07-31-2008, 10:53 PM
those rcbs silhouette boolits are good to a point but they are very finicky.
i shoot them in the 308 and 7mm versions.
if you wanna go over 22-2300 it is an art with them ,and they are picky to the smallest
variables.
you may wanna look at another design for h/v.
as those really donot carry very much lube and really do best in very tight throats.

Boomer Mikey
08-01-2008, 12:17 AM
Many thanks to those of you that left constructive feedback, it's greatly appreciated. :drinks: I recognize there's much more work for me ahead and with your continued support I fully expect to get where I want to go.

I'm typically the one step at a time type with two or three projects going at the same time.

Right now it's 4; an M1A, a 308 scout rifle, a 10" TC 22 Hornet, and a 10" Merrill pistol in 270 Max.

The M1A and the Hornet are my two HV projects; the M1A isn't way up there velocity wise but IMO represents the biggest challenge and it's currently rough around the edges. I'm going to put 4-5 hundred jacketed rounds through it while I figure out how to make tougher cast bullets that fit with reliable functioning.

I'm going to use Paco Kelley's magnum lead shot bullet casting method next week to make some hard cast bullets for my Hornet and 223's to work with. I have a 20" Varmit bull barrel upper in the works.

Boomer :Fire:

Hang Fire
08-01-2008, 04:04 AM
HABCAN,

I'll be keeping in touch with you about your experimentation going for higher velocity loads.

It has always interested me, and my only experience with cast boolits in rifles has been with the great old 30/30 Winchester...

Thanks,

Murphy


The 30-30 is the only cartridge I got factory jacketed velocities+accuracy with cast boolits. It is an often overlooked round by many for cast. I got a Stevens 325-C in 30-30 yesterday and am looking forwards to playing with it once the 120+ temps recede this fall.

Newtire
08-01-2008, 08:49 AM
It looks like the 311413 mold has been discontinued.

I have the RCBS 30-165-SIL and 30-200-SIL and I've been thinking about ordering a Lyman 311672. I'll be on the lookout for a 311413 mold too.

After reading several articles about cast 22 caliber bullets in everything from the 22 Hornet to the 22-250 I ordered Lyman 225415, 225438, and RCBS 22-055-SP molds (long ago). The general consensus of what I read was to size bullets 0.002"- 0.003" over bore diameter and that best results were obtained with nose first sizing if required. There's a thorough article in the "Art of bullet casting" DVD set about reaching 2700 - 2800 fps with 1" 22-250 groups in two rifles By Carl Johnson that goes through alloy performance, powder selection, bullet and case preparation and the methodology Carl used.

I'm going to try an alloy of 80/15/5 WW/Shot/Lino to see if I can make 28-30 bhn bullets for this application that are hard but not brittle. If I had pure lead on hand I woulld use it instead of wheel weights.

Boomer :Fire:

If you are looking for a boolit to push fast, I would go with one of Loverin design. They carry enough lube and are not so pointy as to allow them to collapse on the nose section. Either that or somethng with a rather abrupt nose. Let us know how the RCBS 165 sil works out. I have had good luck with that one. Don't have a chrono so don't know the speeds. I know that I never could get the 311413 to do much when pushed very fast at all. I see a recent resurgence of interest in that thing so let us know if you have any luck in pushing it faster than anyone else.

trfourtune
12-18-2014, 02:22 PM
boomer,
I think you will have a very hard time(making them work) (223) with small bore , fast twist, high velocity, cast bullets. 270 is about as small diameter as Veral recommends. I wouldn't discount this advise. I am a newbie, have been researching for as much info as I can find about this topic and trust the guys that have been doing it for 40-50 years. I am going cast with a 32 Winchester special, which has a 1:16 twist. This is supposed to be a very cast friendly combination. In my mind (don't go there) this larger than 30 cal, slow twist, is the real reason it is "special".It is not, "just a necked up 30-30" as stated elsewhere, because the twist rate was changed. the 45-70 had a 1:20 twist rate (originally) which was designed for cast bullets. fast and high twist rates spell disaster/frustration in my mind (again, don't go there).

popper
12-18-2014, 09:30 PM
Boomer - guess I can chime in here. My standard AR - 308 carbine load is a PC'd 31-165C (165A does just as well) running 2450 avg. I've got a 24" upper but never chrony'd, calculate 2650. I'm NOT at max powder , just at low end Hodgdon data. I'm pushing a 145 gr PB (31-142C) from 300 BO @ 1950, not max book load. If I were a better shot I'd claim MOA (still working on that). My alloy is 3% Sb + Cu & H.T.'d @ 400f for > 1 hr, quench in cold water. Both are 1:10, much easier on the boolit. Both boolits are basically same design , NO grooves so a large drive area, tough alloy, PC coating & sized close to bore. I don't load smaller than 30 cal. & I'd call it jacketed fps. If I can do it, most anyone can.

geargnasher
12-18-2014, 10:58 PM
I love it when newbies exhume eight-year-old threads...:kidding:

Good one, by the way.

Gear

TomBulls
01-07-2015, 12:00 AM
Yes, newbs are here exhuming ancient threads.... (sorry guys, I'm in the process of doing just that.)

I'm heading out to the range on Friday morning (Jan. 9) to test some paper patched bullets at jacketed bullet speeds, so I'll check back in if/when I get back from the range.

xacex
01-07-2015, 09:32 PM
I love it when newbies exhume eight-year-old threads...:kidding:

Good one, by the way.

Gear
It is good! It just means they are digging deep for information instead of asking questions multiple times. It is kinda funny when they don't look at the date, and post like the last post was yesterday.

TomBulls
01-07-2015, 09:36 PM
It is good! It just means they are digging deep for information instead of asking questions multiple times. It is kinda funny when they don't look at the date, and post like the last post was yesterday.

Having been guilty of asking newb questions without doing research, I figured that a topic as technically complex as a paper patch (which can't POSSIBLY be all that difficult...) will have been covered satisfactorily by now. I've found answers to _most_ of my questions, so now I'll try to contribute to the existing body of knowledge.

xacex
01-07-2015, 09:45 PM
Having been guilty of asking newb questions without doing research, I figured that a topic as technically complex as a paper patch (which can't POSSIBLY be all that difficult...) will have been covered satisfactorily by now. I've found answers to _most_ of my questions, so now I'll try to contribute to the existing body of knowledge.
Excellent! That what this place is all about, and why it is my favorite forum out of all of them I have visited over the years. The body of knowledge, and the willingness to share it is unprecedented here.

TomBulls
01-07-2015, 09:46 PM
Excellent! That what this place is all about, and why it is my favorite forum out of all of them I have visited over the years. The body of knowledge, and the willingness to share it is unprecedented here.

The other reason that is my all-time-ever favorite forum is because you guys have the best looking rebuilt/repaired/refinished guns I've seen anywhere on the 'net.

xacex
01-08-2015, 01:50 AM
I will add to that. Some junk I had laying around, and put 40 hours into. Small potatoes compared to some of the work I have seen here.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Ud2f-QiuFhY/U1nHlsHluCI/AAAAAAAABlo/_EiPqWySNAU/w433-h577-no/IMG_20140424_192514.jpg

TomBulls
01-09-2015, 04:51 PM
Well, I'm back from the range. I tried firing some 190 grain paper patched bullets in my 91/30 using Reloader 15. First set of five was "okay" with a baseball sized group at 50 yards, but I expect more from the rifle. The other groups were horrifically awful, so I'll work on this again when the weather warms up and I don't have to shoot in single-digit temperatures. I don't have anything productive to report from the range trip other than how I have a lot more to learn about high velocity paper patched bullets.

swheeler
01-09-2015, 09:09 PM
I love it when newbies exhume eight-year-old threads...:kidding:

Good one, by the way.

Gear

You had a different math teacher than I!;-) Post # 1 7-29-2008- your post 12-19-2014 Eight years????????