Primer head separation from side or skirt during de-priming

[Big Boomer]

Experienced something I had never run into before with a bunch of WCC-'91 .38 Sp. brass. Brass had been de-primed and reloaded before with CCI primers but this time while de-priming the head of the primer cup separated from the side or skirt. Since I have a dremel I found that I could remove the side or skirt of the primer easily but it is not worth the effort. Anyone else run into this problem? This question was raised in the 7/17 issue of the American Rifleman and Chas E. Petty addressed it briefly. Didn't happen with any .357 Mag. brass and only one piece of commercial .38 Spl. brass - don't remember the brand. Primer type? During the primer shortage I did purchase some Remington & S&B primers that I had never used before. Big Boomer

[bedbugbilly]

I missed the article in AR but am wondering - are you sizing and depriving at the same time or separate operations?

I use CCI and have never had the experience you have had. Have you checked your depriving pin to verify that everything is koser with the end of it and it's not worn or damaged in some manner which would put a strain not he primer when pushing it out? Just a thought of the top of the head and it will be interesting to see if others have had the same issues that you talk about.

[billyb]

I ran into this problem with range pick up brass that had been rained on. The primer developed corrosion and weakened the cup and the end popped off in several cases. If it gets wet and is left for a short time it will corrode. Do not know if this is your problem but it is one cause. Bill

[lightman]

I've had this problem with range brass occasionally but not with my handloads. I have not noticed a pattern with any specific brand of brass.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I've seen it many times in 9mm range brass that I bought (I suspect outdoor range), usually Mil surp crimped primer pockets, and I always see corrosion in the spent primer remains.

In fact, Just this Spring, I did a batch (1500) of 9mm, all range brass from same source, after I have a few of that batch do that, I sorted all the mil surps out of that batch, then I Sized/deprimed those separately, I had about 1 in 10 mil surps do that.

[gwpercle]

I've had it happen a time or two , usually with brass that was fired and not deprimed for awhile (like a few years) but have not noticed it with new primers in recent loading sessions.
I simply pried the skirt out with a small awl/ice pick , reamed the pocket to uniform it and kept on with them. Will keep an eye out for this , Thanks for heads up Boomer.

Gary

[RGrosz]

I've started top run into that problem while trying to recover from our flood. Just have been scrapping the brass, but will try to use my dermal tool or a pick to sig out the skirt out.

Rob

[Big Boomer]

Thanks for the insight on this issue but I'm still puzzled. Since nearly every incident described occurred with WCC-'91 military brass, I assumed that it was an issue with my not having the primer crimp removed sufficiently. The one exception was 1 piece of commercial brass and only with .38 Spl., not a single piece of .357 Mag. that I was processing at the same time. This military brass was all originally de-primed with a Lee hand de-primer punch that you hit with a small brass hammer. Did not have a single instance of the primer cap coming off during original primer removal of several thousand pieces of brass - and the spent primers having to come out of the primer pocket that was crimped. However, this brass has not been wet. It was fired and dropped into a box so no moisture issue. After running into this problem, I have run all the remaining pieces of this brass over the RCBS primer crimp removal tool again because this has been really good brass. Must be a primer issue of some sort ... but why with only this .38 Spl. brass? I was prepping a gaggle of .38 Spl. and .357 Mag. brass that had all been loaded about the same time period on the same equipment - Dillon XL 650 and with the same components. My practice is to shoot the ammo and dump the .38 Spl. and .357 Mag. brass into a container and leave it in my dry basement, then clean it all up at one time after I have de-primed it all by hand. Beats me. Big Boomer

[fred2892]

Your problem is almost definitely the Sellier and Bellot primers. This brand is well known for having problems with oversize primers , undersize pockets, brittle and poor quality brass. S&B products should be considered one shot only and not reloadable. Most probably incorrect quality or poor metal heat treatment of the primer cups has made them brittle.
Here in Europe, S&B is last resort, nothing else on the shelf , last ditch product

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[jbutts6785]

I had it happen a few times with once fired military .30 carbine brass. I figured it was a combination of the crimp and the age of the brass. Maybe a little corrosion. It didn's seem to be worth digging the skirt out of the pocket, so they went into the recycle box.

[trapper9260]

I had got some 38spl brass from a site and had 2 to 3 out of 500 did this.Thanks for the tip of how to remove them gwpercle.

[mold maker]

I now have over a gal of these in 223/5.56. They are both commercial and mil. It is worth finding a simple/cheap method of removing the primer sleeve. I've tried unsuccessfully to use just a pick.
What size/# drill would likely remove most of it out without damage to the pocket?
Because of the brass taper, I doubt perfect centering would be possible with the drill press I have.

[Big Boomer]

Fred: Apparently you know something about S&B primers of which I was unaware. However, S&B brass that I have used has all been very good - .380, 9mm, .38 Spl., 357 Mag - those were all pieces of brass that I picked up at the range when I retrieved my own cases. I have not purchased a round of ammo in many years. Primer pockets on all S&B brass are noticeably tight. The .38 Spl. ammo I loaded was loaded in a short period of time and could well have been with the S&B primers. Perhaps that is the answer.

Mold Maker: Dremel has a device that will allow you to simply drill away or, more accurately, cut away one area of the primer side or skirt and the remnant comes out easily. I just do not think it is worth the effort. The device looks similar to a drill bit but is not designed for drilling, but for "carving" I suppose. It cuts rapidly and is just a smidgen smaller than the remaining hole when the base of the primer cup comes off. Best wishes on a gallon can of cases with that problem. It will work, though. Big Boomer

[fred2892]

You appear to have had good luck with your s&b brass. A simple search for 's&b' in the castboolits custom search box brings up hundreds of posts, mainly negative for s&b brass and primers. Looks like you're mainly using pistol cases, personal experience with a few s&b rifle calibres has brought me nothing except a heavier scrap can.

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[Big Boomer]

Fred: Don't think I have run across any S&B rifle brass ... none that I can recall, anyway. Thanks for the info. Big Boomer

[Wayne Smith]

All the ones this has happened to me were extremely hard to deprime - there was significant resistance before the end let go. I have a couple rifle cases that I have broken standard punches on trying to get the primers out - not just depriming pins but punches. I eventually gave up on them.

[Possumcop]

I now have over a gal of these in 223/5.56. They are both commercial and mil. It is worth finding a simple/cheap method of removing the primer sleeve. I've tried unsuccessfully to use just a pick.
What size/# drill would likely remove most of it out without damage to the pocket?
Because of the brass taper, I doubt perfect centering would be possible with the drill press I have.
I've had good luck using the same tool I use to remove Berdan primers with the "punch and pry" method.
199940
199939
199941
I've found that the key to success is making your punch out of the right kind of steel.

Nails and screws are too soft and allow the tip to bend when you start prying.

Old chainsaw sharpening files are too brittle and will break when subjected to side stresses.

I've had the best results using old "L" shaped Allen keys. They're hard enough that the point doesn't deform and tough enough that they don't break when you start prying.

[tomme boy]

S&B rifle brass is suspect at best. The pistol brass I have used is great. The first time reloading it the primer pocket is a little tight. But after that first loading it is some of the brass I always use. I reloaded 50 45acp casings over 30 times and never lost a case. Some other brass the primer pocket will loosen up and has to be thrown away.

[Wayne Smith]

I've only used S&B pistol brass, run them through the Lyman primer pocket uniformer and use as any other brass. Just like removing the crimp from military brass.

I remember more about that brass with primers impossible to remove. It was 8mm brass and had clearly been outdoors for some time. I gave up when I punched through the primer without removing it. Yes, it was Boxer primed, or at least had a single central hole.

[lightman]

I went back and read the #1 and #8 post again. Those problem cases have to have something in common that we don't know about and that you don't remember. It seems that there is a possibility that you used other primers than CCI. That could be the problem. CCI has always been my favorite primer and I doubt them being the problem. We've all used lesser known brands during shortages but I've had far fewer issues with CCI than any other brand. I doubt that its a heavy crimp causing this, as you would have noticed difficulty with installing new primers.

Anyway, Possumcop's tool looks like an easy fix for this. Especially since you already have a Dremel tool. Another idea would be a hollow ground gunsmith screwdriver bit. Save them in a can until the weather keeps you in and you get "cabin fever" and need something to do.

[mold maker]

Yesterday evening I drilled a piece of steel to safely hold the 223 brass and ground an Allen wrench like Possomcops suggestion. I had to reshape it several times during the operation. The results is that about half the primer sleeves were easy to remove. About 1/4th more were removed with some difficulty and the rest were just too tight to budge. Many of these had been found while attempting to swage the pockets and the ring had been compressed. It appears that all of them had significant tarnish and the pockets were really dark after the primer remains finally gave way.
There were HS of all kinds and no brand showed up important out of the represented group. It appears they were simply badly tarnished range brass that had severly weathered or been improperly stored. The Mil brass dated from 80 to O9 so it may have weathered for many years under adverse range conditions. None had green spots or pits, and citric acid with SS pins cleaned even the pockets to bright brass with a normal time tumbling. I also found half a doz. that were dark brown that the acid didn't touch. They were not magnetic???
Being retired and welcoming a sit-down task, the brass I saved was worth the effort, but those without spare time might understandably forget it. I saved a #10 food can almost full of mostly X1 Mil brass which is my choice to reload.
mm

[Big Boomer]

Lightman: You and Fred are probably correct ... I can only conclude now that the primer I was using has to be the culprit. For years I used nothing but CCI, then finally in desperation used some Winchester & Remington primers. Also along the way I ran into a bunch of Alcan primers that were o. k. The primer shortage sent me looking for whatever was available and I found Wolf (was there a Wolf primer?) and S&B. Don't remember any problems with any of them until this episode. Given what happened, something had to cause the problem and it has to be a primer problem and not a brass problem. Thanks to all for the input. Big Boomer

[Wayne Smith]

Wolf and Tula are both made at the Tula armory in Russia.

[Soundguy]

Fred: Apparently you know something about S&B primers of which I was unaware. However, S&B brass that I have used has all been very good - .380, 9mm, .38 Spl., 357 Mag - those were all pieces of brass that I picked up at the range when I retrieved my own cases. I have not purchased a round of ammo in many years. Primer pockets on all S&B brass are noticeably tight. The .38 Spl. ammo I loaded was loaded in a short period of time and could well have been with the S&B primers. Perhaps that is the answer.

Mold Maker: Dremel has a device that will allow you to simply drill away or, more accurately, cut away one area of the primer side or skirt and the remnant comes out easily. I just do not think it is worth the effort. The device looks similar to a drill bit but is not designed for drilling, but for "carving" I suppose. It cuts rapidly and is just a smidgen smaller than the remaining hole when the base of the primer cup comes off. Best wishes on a gallon can of cases with that problem. It will work, though. Big Boomer

I've used S&B brass and primers for years.. never an issue.

On rare occasion I've had some old greek 30-06 from the 60's have a primer poke thru or skirt separation ( old 1-shot brass that was left not deprimed for decade+ ). In those rare ( less than 1 per 1000 ) instances, whenever I ran the case on the crimp reamer and then primer pocket tru-er, it snatched the primer skirt right out.

Most of my S&B is pistol, however I do have some rimmed 8x57 rifle and a few other select I load for that have seen low #'s of relaods, but have had no problems.

One thing to mention. While I have S&B primers and brass, it's not always paired. I may be loading S&B brass with whatever brand of primer that is up next in rotation by age.. IE.. could be winchester.. tula.. etc..

[toallmy]

I have recently ran into this problem as well , a friend sent me a couple gallons of nickel 38 brass . I have only got around to loading the Fed brass , but I have had 4-5 just knock the top off of the primer . This is at least 8-10 year old once fired nickel brass that I washed in citrus acid before deciding priming . I just decided to deprime all of it before loading it will go a lot smoother through the loadmaster with the primer all the way out[smilie=l: