Any interest in documenting underground house build here?

[Tnfalconer]

OK guys, let me preface this with a few things. I have built and taught natural building and underground construction for quite some time. Timber framing and log building are all we do here these days.

Would you guys like to follow along as I build our new house on the mountain? It will be a version of Mike Oehlers designs, featuring a 40x40x8 underground structure with 20x40 above ground clear story with an integrated green house.

I am starting with digging an 8 ft deep hole in the ground 40x60'. It's challenging as this mountain is pretty much solid limestone rock. The ripper teeth on my 755 track loader crush it into gravel and I scoop it all out to use elsewhere. Digging here takes time. THis winter I put about 16 large trees on the ground for the the vertical load bearing piers of the house. That's where we start.

[OS OK]

I'd like to watch and ask questions.

Part of my house is cut into the hill side, it's always cool there in the 100* summer....I think I'd take advantage of energy savings like that.

[Ickisrulz]

I have often thought that if it weren't for our wives, we'd all be living in underground houses. This is especially true in Oklahoma.

I'd like to see the build.

[funnyjim014]

I want a missile silo. I think 100000sqft is enough room lol

[Tnfalconer]

I have built three structures like this in this past but not for myself. This will be the first time taking all of the different theories of underground building and combining them into one structure, for me anyway. Here our major battle is cold in the winter. It doesn't get that hot here with the high being 80 in the summer months. In this building the underground portion will thermo regulate the large majority of the house. The clear story and greenhouse will act as a radiant heat source trapping the solar gain of the winter sun. Pulling the heat down into the house will be the only hurdle. In the summer months, venting the greenhouse and clear story will draft and pull any heat from the bottom out, cooling the house with a slight draft.

[jsizemore]

I helped build a few in Fla. It's got to be a different animal in Montana. I want to watch.

[Tnfalconer]

The beauty of building it here is that material costs are minimal. It will be timber framed with logs from my land. Rocks and gravel will be pulled from my property also. Next spring I plan to have some of my trees cut into lumber for the dimensional lumber needs for the house. For reference, the only costs involved will be diesel fuel, chainsaw gas and rebar for the main body of the structure. It will most likely cost around 8-10k completed for a 2100 sq/ft house with a loft.

[wddodge]

I'd be very interested in following along with your progress. Pics would be great..

Denny

[popper]

IIRC there are some silos for sale. Biggest problem with underground is water/moisture/humidity! Your location gives you a freeze depth problem also. I assume it's really a basement with small clearstory on top for the height. Warning, rock based basements LEAK. Even a rubberized coating inside doesn't stop it. People who bury steel cargo containers always amuse me. Horizontal pressure underground is pretty high. And then they put 4' of soil on top! Anyway, sounds like an interesting project.
199016

[SSGOldfart]

I'd be very interested in following along with your progress. Pics would be great..

Denny

I agree with Denny pictures would be great.
On another note you might want to look into using the green house heat,Themro is the new energy technology,Google txpepper2 I used to follow his U tube videos he uses pipe underground to regulate his greenhouse temperatures should work about the same for heating and cooling systems in your home I've been thinking about the same idea for years my health issues are stopping me from trying it.

[slim1836]

I TOO WOULD BE MOST INTERESTED, AND FYI, I'M SHOUTING.

Slim

[Tnfalconer]

IIRC there are some silos for sale. Biggest problem with underground is water/moisture/humidity! Your location gives you a freeze depth problem also. I assume it's really a basement with small clearstory on top for the height. Warning, rock based basements LEAK. Even a rubberized coating inside doesn't stop it. People who bury steel cargo containers always amuse me. Horizontal pressure underground is pretty high. And then they put 4' of soil on top! Anyway, sounds like an interesting project.
199016

These are all considerations for sure but with proper ventilation, insulation and thermal mass. It can be effectively negated. We have done this before. In my area we have very little humidity, in fact I would like a little more humidity. Our frost line is 4 ft of depth here in my area. The funny thing is that we are on essentially solid rock so we don't have problems with frost heave here. My underground walls will be 2' thick, solid rock, rebar and fiber reinforced concrete. I seriously don't foresee a sheer problem. Especially with an 8 ft wall. The underground portion will be the main living area, with a loft above that will be the clear story that is above ground. As far as outside protection from water or moisture, foam insulation board and an epdm non permeable layer will be laid in after the wall is poured and before back filling. Since the water table here is about 1600 ft below us and we will be back filling with gravel ( naturally occurring here) any moisture transfer is going to be minimal if at all.

[Tnfalconer]

I agree with Denny pictures would be great.
On another note you might want to look into using the green house heat,Themro is the new energy technology,Google txpepper2 I used to follow his U tube videos he uses pipe underground to regulate his greenhouse temperatures should work about the same for heating and cooling systems in your home I've been thinking about the same idea for years my health issues are stopping me from trying it.

I have seen some of those! I don't know how I will pull the heat down into the house as of yet, I have some ideas but nothing concrete. I am actually more concerned with removing heat. Convection from the bottom floor should take care of most of it. At least that is my hope. If, in the winter I can effectively store the solar gain from the greenhouse in the thermal mass of the house it will be really effective at regulating temperatures. The last house we built like this thermo regulated at about 67 degrees, that was year round. In the winter the home owners used a rocket mass stove tied into the exterior wall to heat the house but it only required firing the stove for a few hours every couple days. It was VERY efficient. That was a Montana house at a high elevation, like we are. I am hoping to duplicate and build upon those past projects. Just taking things a little further. For instance the subterranean wall on that house were only 12" thick and only 4 ft deep.

[robg]

I'm claustrophobic no thanks .

[bruce drake]

If you put a round door on the front of the house...

seriously, I'm interested as well.

Bruce

[Plate plinker]

Will you use in floor heating? Interesting project and very energy efficient no doubt?

[D-RIG]

This would be interesting to watch it come together
and to see how it progress

[Tnfalconer]

Will you use in floor heating? Interesting project and very energy efficient no doubt?
We don't plan to need any heating in the floor. Unless it was solar we wouldn't use it. This house will be a test bed for future builds. It just happens to be mine. If we do it right it should reduce our heating needs by about 80-90 percent. We heat solely with wood in the winter. We will still have a wood heater in the house but it should reduce our winter wood usage from 7-8 cord per winter to possibly 2-3... Maybe less. Being 8 ft in the ground thermo regulation will try to maintain earth temp once it stabilizes. That is cool in the summer and warm in the winter. All I have is data from other houses we have built. I have never lived in one for over a month or so.

[Tnfalconer]

If you put a round door on the front of the house...

seriously, I'm interested as well.

Bruce

Want to know something funny? I have built two round doors for houses! They are incredibly hard to get right and likely need to be adjustable for tweaking the rest of their lives. Last one was 9 ft diameter. Weighed about 400 pounds. Steel frame and steel core on the door skinned with teak. It looked like a million bucks but what a pain in the butt.

[Artful]

Very Interesting, I'm definately curious about your build

- Please share lots of Pictures

Do you have Artistic drawings of anything to come?

[Tnfalconer]

Very Interesting in your build - Please share lots of Pictures

Do you have Artistic drawings of anything to come?

I have some renderings that I drew up a couple years back but this will be different than those renderings. Here in Montana, in the county that I live in there are no regulations. No building codes or requirements or inspections. Needless to say we are very rural in the mountains.

[popper]

Fins have been using in slab heating for years. Circulating water in radiators connected to ground circulation works too. Remember a Denver area house that used boulders in the basement with circulating fans for temp control. Late 50s technology. Gravel backfill will work as french drain so you need an outlet. Bro is a Arch Eng, decided to use a berm against the house for geotherm cooling. Had to remove it as it was against a wood stud wall - he should have known better - buckled the wall. He & I always been interested but hard to find/afford a guaranteed system. I've thought about the geotherm well here but cities won't let us do it.
As a kid I'd rife right seatin the Mooney to SD silos when they were being built. I wouldn't want to live in one. Dad get chewed out pretty good when we tried to land on the paved strip in front of a Martin about to touch down. We were supposed to land on the DIRT strip but tower forgot to say that.

[rancher1913]

in the middle of building our retirement house and we put in a fiberglass basement due to the high water table, my biggest concern is it floating out of the ground. we are going to incorporate mr finch's greenhouse from "citrus in the snow" and also incorporate a batch box rocket mass heater for the house. solar water system should arrive this week and hopefully I can have the cows new water system up and running before I have to go back to work. our goal is to not have any utility payments when we retire and be self sufficient.

interested in seeing your foundation walls and log building.

[rancher1913]

sorry, double post.

[MUSTANG]

I am interested; subscribed to this thread.

[MT Gianni]

Also interested. We just moved into our new build of 1500 sq ft up and down, overlooking the Jefferson and Tobacco Roots. I also have 20 acres I want to put a dry cabin on.

[MaryB]

Instead of that wood wall heat have you considered the scandinavian style wood heat where it travels under the floor and heats the concrete floors? Warm floors in winter make the whole house feel warm!


We don't plan to need any heating in the floor. Unless it was solar we wouldn't use it. This house will be a test bed for future builds. It just happens to be mine. If we do it right it should reduce our heating needs by about 80-90 percent. We heat solely with wood in the winter. We will still have a wood heater in the house but it should reduce our winter wood usage from 7-8 cord per winter to possibly 2-3... Maybe less. Being 8 ft in the ground thermo regulation will try to maintain earth temp once it stabilizes. That is cool in the summer and warm in the winter. All I have is data from other houses we have built. I have never lived in one for over a month or so.

[MaryB]

to move heat from the greenhouse down look at a thermosiphon system http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/WaterHeating/water_heating.htm#Thermosyphon which uses no moving parts unless you add a fan to the lower radiators...

[Plate plinker]

Exactly Mary. Put it this way I am a concrete finisher and have built many homes, now if my house were destroyed I definitely would rebuild with in floor heating. Floor heating is even and warm.

[Tnfalconer]

Here is the dirt work so far. About 4 ft of depth. The hole I am opening and clearing is about 60x60. Second pic is at grade to give some perspective as to where it will sit on the downhill slope of the top of our property. Full southern exposure. Not sure why it tilted the pictures, sorry about that.

[Artful]

I'm claustrophobic no thanks .


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4H1cZjIyDQ

[woodbutcher]

:D Very interesting.I`ll saddle up and go along for the ride.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

[NavyVet1959]

Here is the dirt work so far. About 4 ft of depth. The hole I am opening and clearing is about 60x60. Second pic is at grade to give some perspective as to where it will sit on the downhill slope of the top of our property. Full southern exposure. Not sure why it tilted the pictures, sorry about that.

Damn, that's quite the slope... Damn near vertical... Even the trees are growing out the side of that mountain...

I would like to have a house completely underground and then a small 1000 sq-ft or less portion on the surface as long as I could build it so that the county didn't know about the underground portion. That way, they would only tax me on the upper "shack". Of course, the problem here is that if you build underground, you will probably run into ground water issues and even if you don't, there's a good chance that you might have a problem the next time a slow moving tropical storm or hurricane heads this way.

[Tnfalconer]

Damn, that's quite the slope... Damn near vertical... Even the trees are growing out the side of that mountain...

I would like to have a house completely underground and then a small 1000 sq-ft or less portion on the surface as long as I could build it so that the county didn't know about the underground portion. That way, they would only tax me on the upper "shack". Of course, the problem here is that if you build underground, you will probably run into ground water issues and even if you don't, there's a good chance that you might have a problem the next time a slow moving tropical storm or hurricane heads this way.

The slope helps with the evacuation of any surface water. We don't have ground water here but we get lots of snow. It needs to allow the runoff of that snow melt. That is one of the reasons for building into the side of a hill like that. Add to that most of my property is on a slope of some kind. We planned this location out carefully taking into account solar exposure, drainage and grade. Using my track loader in the excavation is dicey for sure. I had to rebuild my ramp as the grade was too steep to pull dirt out and not tip the loader backing out. So far I am t about five feet of depth but it is all gravel now. I am using the gravel up on road and driveway instead of just piling it up so it is taking a little longer to do that.

[OS OK]

I'd think about running french drains around the 'dug in' part of the house and on other long runs out across the hillside and grab that groundwater runoff and put it into a cistern. A dang big cistern.

[Tnfalconer]

I'd think about running french drains around the 'dug in' part of the house and on other long runs out across the hillside and grab that groundwater runoff and put it into a cistern. A dang big cistern.

For the most part will have gravel around the entire sub ground portion. That's all the soil is here at that depth. It will be what I back fill with. I might throw corrugated drain at the bases for extra, extra, extra coverage.

[adcoch1]

This is a great idea, been looking into these ideas myself. Studied architecture and went into the engineering end, always fascinated with solar heating and passive cooling systems. Once we get moved to Montana (Drummond area) i plan on building my shop at least cut into the hillside like you're doing. Great thread and keep the pics coming...

[salty dog]

I'm interested too.

[shaper]

I'm interested. Have been looking at building a underground house for years. making a living got in the way.

[Plate plinker]

For the most part will have gravel around the entire sub ground portion. That's all the soil is here at that depth. It will be what I back fill with. I might throw corrugated drain at the bases for extra, extra, extra coverage.

Drain tile is a plus and cheap enough too. Not to mention digging up around your place a second time would suck. go for it

[MaryB]

Yeah $200 worth of plastic drain tile and it would be a water source if you can add a cistern...

[Markbo]

199016

Forgive me if someone askd but I didnt anything...what is that a picture of? I canNOT figure it out

[Taylor]

Well,what's the hold up? Let's get started.

[rancher1913]

are you talking about the missile in the silo photo. its out of focus but if you enlarge it you can see the missile.

[Plate plinker]

Nice picture popper. Now stay of my lawn or else!

[Markbo]

Ooooooh! I thought it was a vehicle of some kind! Now I got it thanks!

[Tnfalconer]

An unforeseen hurdle I am currently jumping is what to do with all the gravel I am pulling out of the hole for the house. Yards and yards of it. In the short run I am using it to gravel my driveway and my neighbors but there is way more than I can do anything with so it is costing me a lot of time to move it all around.

[jsizemore]

Yard sale.

[Smoke4320]

Yes I would be very interested in following your progress even a year or so after to see the challenges that arise

[OS OK]

It sounds like your site is an old riverbed. Have you seen/inspected your bedrock under that gravel anywhere? Are there any Gold Mines in that part of the country?
Here in Northern Cali we have 2 ancient riverbeds from the 'White and the Blue' rivers...when the Sierra Nevada's raised up those riverbeds were mostly covered but where they have found them they were pretty rich in placer gold.

That gravel won't hurt anything just sitting in a big pile, over the years you'll find uses for it I'm sure.

[Tnfalconer]

I wish it was an old river bed. We are at 6,000 ft of elevation. On a privately owned mountain. Closest stream or water is about 1600 feet below us. I started piling it up but it's already in the way so a I started finding uses for it. I'll use a bunch of it up with my driveway and the neighbors. The other I will haul off. I have a friend with a dump trailer that is bringing it over next week to get about 5 yards at a time.

[NavyVet1959]

The slope helps with the evacuation of any surface water. We don't have ground water here but we get lots of snow. It needs to allow the runoff of that snow melt. That is one of the reasons for building into the side of a hill like that. Add to that most of my property is on a slope of some kind. We planned this location out carefully taking into account solar exposure, drainage and grade. Using my track loader in the excavation is dicey for sure. I had to rebuild my ramp as the grade was too steep to pull dirt out and not tip the loader backing out. So far I am t about five feet of depth but it is all gravel now. I am using the gravel up on road and driveway instead of just piling it up so it is taking a little longer to do that.

Nawh, I was just razzing you about the photos being rotated, so it looked like the slope was 90 degrees. :)