I think I need a .432" sizer die

[GSSP]

New Ruger Bisley Flattop in 44 Special; 4-5/8".

New LBT 4-cavity mold/.431" WFN when throwing ACWW and sized with RCBS .431" size die, they measure .430".

Used new Starline cases, run over Redding Dual ring carbide sizer then Redding expander die/.426". Seated so the bullets would be a light push fit into the throats of the cylinder throats which measure .430" to .4305". Redding profile crimp.

All groups shot over sandbags @ 25 yds. 5-shot groups were dismal 2.25" to 5.25". Loads were 6 to 7.5 gr Unique in .5 gr increments and 7 to 9 gr of Power Pistol in .5 gr increments.

I'm thinking I might want a .432" sizer die but no one makes them so was wondering if one could/should open up the sizer die to .432".

Am I on the right track or does something other than opening up a sizer die might come to mind?

Alan

[country gent]

You might want to try a bigger neck expander Something around .428-.429 I would Lean towards .429. The .426 expanded case is probably around .4245-.425 after spring back and this may be sizing your bullet doen even farther than its starting at. If any are left pull one carefully and measure it on the portion in the case and see what it measures. If you have access to a set of pin gages then check the sized and expanded cases to see what they are and go from there. While your expander is .426 there is some spring back to brass cases also.

[KVO]

Agree with country gent, small expander may result in cases swaging boolits undersized. Pull one after seating and mic. If your measurements are correct, .430" should perform if boolits don't drop through the cylinder. If that is correct, consider slugging bbl and see if you have thread choke where the bbl screws into the frame. The gun should definitely be doing better than 5" @ 25 yd!

As an aside, I had ordered an NOE .432" push though sizer and my impatience got the best of me waiting for it to come in. Rummaging through my disused dies, I found a Lee .41 mag factory crimp die with the internals removed works great as a push thru carbide sizer, (this one) spits boolits out at .4322". Not that .41 FCD are just laying around everywhere, but fun anecdote...

[DougGuy]

.432" will not seat in the stock factory .430"-ish throats once you get them assembled.

Some of the group size can be attributed to uneven cylinder throats, as they create pressure variables which cause the gun to recoil differently in the hands from shot to shot, causing boolits to strike to different points of impact even though the same point of aim is observed.

If you want to shoot .432" boolits, send the cylinder and have it sized .4325" ~ .4328" and all the throats will be even when you get it back, and it will gladly chamber your .432" handloads afterwards. You could also send a sizing die if you can't find one I can open it up with the Sunnen hone to .4315" which given there will be some springback, should size pretty close to .432" depending on alloy. This is what Lee does, their .432" die is not .432" I have one and it's .4315" but boolits in 50/50+2% push though at .432"

Something you can check yourself is the forcing cone. If it's rough or cut more on one side than the other, you can rent the forcing cone cutter kit from 4D rentals and recut it yourself, it cuts FAST so go slow and check often! Use a little Tap Magic on it. They (4D) have a really good video on using the tool. Reaming the cylinder throats, sizing to .432" and recutting the forcing cone, and using a Wolff 30oz. trigger return spring will turn that thing into a tack driver.

[Lloyd Smale]

ive owned probably 20 or more 44 rugers both mag and spec through the years and not a single one required bullets bigger then .430 to shoot well. Id look elsewhere for your problem.

[winelover]

New LBT 4-cavity mold/.431" WFN when throwing ACWW and sized with RCBS .431" size die, they measure .430".

Alan


If I'm reading this correctly......sounds like you expect the sizing die to make your castings a larger diameter than they drop from the mould. Doesn't work that way. You need a mould that will drop bullets at or larger than .432 diameter or use a much harder alloy.

Winelover

[GSSP]

ive owned probably 20 or more 44 rugers both mag and spec through the years and not a single one required bullets bigger then .430 to shoot well. Id look elsewhere for your problem.

Suggestions?

[GSSP]

If I'm reading this correctly......sounds like you expect the sizing die to make your castings a larger diameter than they drop from the mould. Doesn't work that way. You need a mould that will drop bullets at or larger than .432 diameter or use a much harder alloy.

Winelover

Not really. They drop at .431", which is what I was thinking I needed but the RCBS .431" sizer die was sizing them to .430".

[KVO]

Let us know how the unsized .431 projectiles vs the sized .430" projectiles fit in all 6 cylinder throats. Do any drop through? Snug fit? Can't push through at all? Any difference between all 6? If Also please send a pic of the forcing cone if possible. How does the gun shoot with jacketed bullets? Let's start with gun measurements and make a plan based on that assessment.

[KVO]

Let us know how the unsized .431" projectiles vs the sized .430" projectiles fit in all 6 cylinder throats. Do any drop through? Snug fit? Can't push through at all? Any difference between all 6? Also please send a pic of the forcing cone if possible. How does the gun shoot with jacketed bullets? Let's start with gun measurements and make a plan based on that assessment.

[reddog81]

Not really. They drop at .431", which is what I was thinking I needed but the RCBS .431" sizer die was sizing them to .430".

Your original post asks about acquiring or opening up a sizer to .432. A .432 sizer is not going to size a .431 bullet. .432 bullet will not chamber if you are having to push fit your bullets to chamber them currently. You can increase the diameter of a lee sizer very easily with valve lapping compound if you like.

[GSSP]

Let us know how the unsized .431 projectiles vs the sized .430" projectiles fit in all 6 cylinder throats. Do any drop through? Snug fit? Can't push through at all? Any difference between all 6? If Also please send a pic of the forcing cone if possible. How does the gun shoot with jacketed bullets? Let's start with gun measurements and make a plan based on that assessment.

I'll see if I can fire up the pot tomorrow and cast a dozen or so, so I can measure them, unsized. Sized to .430" with the .431" sizer die, they push through the chambers with a bit of resistance but will tap through when a light, gunsmith hammer and dowel are used.

Cyl 1 =.430"
Cyl 2 =.4305"
Cyl 3 =.43"
Cyl 4 =.43
Cyl 5 =.43"
Cyl 6 =.43025"

Haven't shot jacketed. No plans, so far, to do so. Barrel mics @ .430".

Alan

[captaint]

I might try shooting some jacketed bullets also, just to see the results. One never knows - until you try.... Mike

[KVO]

Based on those measurements, your cylinder throats are pretty darn consistent. Sizing larger than .430" will not be of benefit in the cylinder's current configuration. Forget what the sizer is marked, for all intents and purposes it is a .430" sizer. If you slug the barrel with soft/ pure lead, the slug should then drop through your cylinders (or at least easily push through with minimal drag). If it doesn't, your cylinders are under size. This won't rule out barrel thread choke, but should at least grossly determine if groove diameter is larger than cylinder throats.Still need to pull a loaded round and see if boolit is being swaged down when seating.

[KVO]

Would be a good idea to give the gun a thorough once over for general "gunsmithy" issues, like excessive play in the rear sight/ loose sights, damaged crown. I've seen prone and 3 position shooters go nuts testing different ammo lots, recrowning barrel, pouring time and money into a gun thinking the barrel went south, and all manner of other things... Sometimes it's as simple as the rear sight was loose. No disrespect intended, just a reminder as I've seen national and international competitors fall into this trap.

[GSSP]

Would be a good idea to give the gun a thorough once over for general "gunsmithy" issues, like excessive play in the rear sight/ loose sights, damaged crown. I've seen prone and 3 position shooters go nuts testing different ammo lots, recrowning barrel, pouring time and money into a gun thinking the barrel went south, and all manner of other things... Sometimes it's as simple as the rear sight was loose. No disrespect intended, just a reminder as I've seen national and international competitors fall into this trap.

No disrespect perceived. Actually, it might be an issue since I used an aluminum mount for my Trijicon RMR with green triangle reticle; tip is the aim point. I'm skeptical about the alum mount. I like to use the RMR for load development or LR (75-100 yds) shooting as my 59 yr old eyes are failing me.

[GSSP]

Still need to pull a loaded round and see if boolit is being swaged down when seating.

I'll pull a loaded bullet this pm.

[GSSP]

I'll pull a loaded bullet this pm.

Pulled a bullet which had not yet been crimped. .430", just like it went into the case.

[Digital Dan]

Suggestions?

More powder.

[Lloyd Smale]

Suggestions?

want my honest reply? Try a different bullet preferably an LFN and better yet an lfngc. If you like lbt molds give verals 280lfngc mold a try. My hands down favorite molds for the special are the rcbs swcgc 240, the lyman 429244 and 429215 both which are swcgc bullets. By the way there about my favorites in the 44 mag too. If your gun wont shoot one of those bullets loaded with 17 grains of 2400 and a fed primer id sell the gun! Its allways been a good one for me. I just don't care for wfns. There harder to work loads up for in most guns (not all) and when you get something good at 25 yards accuracy usually falls apart past 50. Especially a light wfn like a 250-260 grain. I much prefer an lfn but when the weight gets down below 250-260 I get better luck with those three swcs. I know some don't agree but I about allways get better accuracy using gas checks and its rare that going harder doesn't make any bullet shoot better most times. If you don't have any harder alloys or material to make them try water dropping your ww. when I get a great group with a wfn at 25 yards its casted hard and pushed hard. If you stuck on that bullet then start looking at top end loads and hard bullets and don't expect much past 50 yards. Like I said my answers aren't the only ones. Some might not agree but ive owned a pile of 44s. Ruger pistols, smith pistols, marlin rifles, even a few odd balls and customs and have shot a good pickup load of 44s through the years as its hands down my favorite caliber both in special and mag. Some here know me as an opinionated sob but those opinions come from shooting enough lead out of 44s to about make the earth tilt. By the way all three of those bullets I recommended had proven to be great on deer/bear/pigs.

[DougGuy]

+1 on Gas Checks adding to accuracy. I use them in all my heavy weight WFN in 44 Magnum and 45 Colt loadings. I have a medium framed Vaquero that I rechambered a 45 ACP cylinder to 45 Schofield, and it likes the gas check flat nose boolits as well. I get a gas checked LBT 250gr WFN to 1200 fps with 21.5gr H110 and it is very accurate, doesn't lead, this is in Montana Bullet Works softer alloy BHN14? with Veral's soft blue lube, and still under 23,000psi. Recoil is snappy but not sharp at all, no gloves or knuckle tape needed. This 5 1/2" gun and this load will hunt with me come deer season.

Your 44 Flattop is good to 25,000psi.

[beagle]

I thought I needed a larger .44 bullet once. Be careful what you ask for. It may be more than you can handle. Assuming your mould drops at least a .432" bullet and you get a sizing dies that sizes to .432", will it chamber? Bullets sized .432" won't chamber reliably in my SBHs. Some chambers yes, some no. Then, there's the seating problem. My seating die wouldn't reliably seat .432s. The crimp shoulder kept catching shoulder and deep seating. I had it opened to eliminate this problem and then the chambering problem popped up. I finally found a sizing die that sized to .4135" by my incredibly accurate Miyutokyo mike and calibrated eyeball (grin) and all has been well since then. Seating in a set of factory dies, chambering and accuracy. If you're casting big enough and your sizing die is sizing .431" or over, you should be in good shape for accuracy./beagle

QUOTE=DougGuy;4089684].432" will not seat in the stock factory .430"-ish throats once you get them assembled.

Some of the group size can be attributed to uneven cylinder throats, as they create pressure variables which cause the gun to recoil differently in the hands from shot to shot, causing boolits to strike to different points of impact even though the same point of aim is observed.

If you want to shoot .432" boolits, send the cylinder and have it sized .4325" ~ .4328" and all the throats will be even when you get it back, and it will gladly chamber your .432" handloads afterwards. You could also send a sizing die if you can't find one I can open it up with the Sunnen hone to .4315" which given there will be some springback, should size pretty close to .432" depending on alloy. This is what Lee does, their .432" die is not .432" I have one and it's .4315" but boolits in 50/50+2% push though at .432"

Something you can check yourself is the forcing cone. If it's rough or cut more on one side than the other, you can rent the forcing cone cutter kit from 4D rentals and recut it yourself, it cuts FAST so go slow and check often! Use a little Tap Magic on it. They (4D) have a really good video on using the tool. Reaming the cylinder throats, sizing to .432" and recutting the forcing cone, and using a Wolff 30oz. trigger return spring will turn that thing into a tack driver.[/QUOTE]

[GSSP]

I took 6, unsized slugs which all came around .4315" to .432". I then drove each one through the chambers.

Chamber #1, 2, 4, 5 and 6 = .431" after going through forcing cone.
Chamber #3, .43075" " " " " "

I then took each of the 6 slugs and ran them through my .431" sizer die and they came up
.4305"
.4305"
.4305"
.43075"
.43075
.4305"

[DougGuy]

I think if you fed a slightly larger boolit into the bore, performance would be noticeably improved. Sizing cylinder throats to .4315" would let you open up your sizer to an honest .431" which would get you the minimum size recommended for a barrel that is .430" groove diameter. Taking it to .4325" and sizing to .432" will also work. In a perfect world a revolver's dimensions would read not unlike a kitchen funnel where the larger dimensions are at the rear, getting progressively smaller as the boolit's path to the muzzle is described, with no constrictions in the middle.

Cast boolits work best when sized .001" to .002" over groove diameter, and to deliver the boolit to the bore at the desired diameter, cylinder throats need to be .0005" to .001" over boolit diameter. This arrangement works well for shooting cast.