Blue Dot warning from Alliant?

[Larry Gibson]

Any one seen this yet? I have not verified it but thought I'd put it out in case it is. If it is I've some bullet pulling to do.

Larry Gibson

ATK Commercial Products
900 Ehlen Drive Anoka, MN 55303
www.atk.com
July 25, 2008
Dear Functional Wholesaler:
Please distribute this letter to all of your customers immediately with instructions for them to do the following:
• Post this letter in a highly visible area of their establishment
• Distribute to their customers as soon as possible
Alliant Powder Blue Dot® Product Safety Notice
Alliant Powder® periodically reviews and tests their published reloading data to verify that recommended recipes have not changed over time.
During the latest review Alliant Powder discovered that Alliant Powder’s Blue Dot® should not be used in the following applications:
• Blue Dot® should NOT be used in the 357 Magnum load using the 125 grain projectile (Blue Dot® recipes with heavier bullet weights as specified in Alliant Powders Reloading Guide are acceptable for use).
• Blue Dot® should NOT be used in the 41 Magnum cartridge (all bullet weights).
Use of Blue Dot® in the above cases may cause a high pressure situation that could cause property damage and serious personal injury.
We apologize for any inconvenience that this may cause and appreciate your understanding and cooperation in this matter.
Thank you for your cooperation and if you have any questions or concerns please contact me at Dick.Quesenberry@ATK.com or call me at 540-639-8503.

Dick Quesenberry
Alliant Powder
Product Line Manager

[uncle joe]

http://www.alliantpowder.com/safety/safetynotice.htm
it's on their website
JE

[David Wile]

Hey folks,

The Lyman manual has been publishing load data for the use of Blue Dot with 125 grain bullets in .357 Mag for quite some time. Without checking other manuals, I would bet that similar data has been published by other recognized manuals. The only reason I can guess that Alliant has now nixed the use of Blue Dot for this loading is that someone had a mishap and a very big lawsuit is involved.

To me, the Alliant notice is an example of corporate failure to communicate with its customers. Reading the notice begs for a lot of answers to questions as to "why, what, when, and where."

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Must be quite some magical combination to be guarded against. BvT

[HeavyMetal]

I'll add that this is the reason (law suits) that many of the manuals, over the years, have gone to lighter loads across the board.

It simply lowers the risk factor for them.

If a law suit is the reason for this warning, and it certainly smells like that kind of a reaction, it doesn't mean Alliant published the wrong data it just means they have the deepest pockets!

If this is a case of "noobie abuse" Alliant may win but the cost can be very high! It's why most lawyers advise settling instead of fighting: in some case's it can save long term dollars for the manufacturer, no matter how stupid the "victim" was.

Sadly, in the long run, I see all of us paying the price for this.

I look forward to more information concerning this warning. Hopefully an insider will "leak" us the real story.

[Larry Gibson]

Well BlueDot has been my "go to" powder for 125 gr bullets in the .357 for some time. I've chronographed quite a bit and never got an indication of a pressure spike. I've loaded the 125 WW HPs to 1690 fps out of a Ruger 6" Security Six for some years now and that load went over 2000 fps out f a 10" Contender. While a top end magnum load it is one that is manual listed.

On another forum site there are a few who have been using Blue Dot in bottle neck rifle varmint cartridges with light bullets and getting almost factory equivelent velocitites. Some claim no problems but there are reports of pressure spikes with that use of Blue Dot. I've not gone there as I don't consider using a smaller amount of Bluedot in lieu of H335 (or similar powder) to get 3200 fps out of a .223 as a "savings". The Blue Dot is obviously a faster burning powder than the normal powders recommended for the .223 (BD is also used in the 204 Ruger by some of those on that forum site). To reach the same , or even to get closer would require a higher pressure. While I've the ability to measure pressure I don't think I'm going to punish my own .223 rifles by testing BD in them.

Larry Gibson

[HeavyMetal]

So you think the rifle guys are now experiencing the Secondary Explosion Effect?

Small amount of fast powder, large case volume?

If that's so then why the ban on 357 and 41 mag loads?

Again, hope to hear from an insider.

[35remington]

"So you think the rifle guys are now experiencing the Secondary Explosion Effect?

Small amount of fast powder, large case volume?" (This isn't the definition of SEE, BTW)

Whoa there, Mr. Assumption.

The mentioned use was for pistols by Alliant.

Let's get more information before we see the "detonation" theorists start crawling out of the woodwork.

[Bass Ackward]

<<Blue Dot is quite fluffy. I don't see how case volume would be the issue. I would think compressing it would be more likely, and also more dangerous.>>


Except that BD is a shotgun powder. Shotgun powders by nature are compressed and sealed with a cup wad when loaded to improve burn. They are designed to burn at 8k-12k psi in the case of those for 12 guage use.

Go to the Hodgdon site and pull up loads for 44Mag.

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

Pick Lil'Gun which is another shotgun powder. Look at the 200 grain bullet and you will see that it is slower than H110 / 296 by close to 2 grains. Then look at 300 grain plus weights and you will see Lil'Gun has flip flopped and now Lil'Gun is faster than H110 / 296 by about the same amount.

So which is it? Faster? Or slower?

A lot of experienced shooters believe that powders burn consistently and linearly. And often it is hard for them to understand how much difference there may be. Case shape, bullet weight, friction, and volume relative to bore diameter alters burn rates. So does pressure when the pressure exceeds that which the powder was developed. And temperature and batch affects burn rate too.

This is why you see burn rate charts with powders ahead of other powders that you know are slower burning and it's hard to find two charts exactly the same. It depends on those factors listed in the paragraph above and the combination used when they were tested by the lab that published the chart.

The real problem with a lot of older reloading data is that it is regurgitated from manual to manual since it was already tested once and believed to be safe. Yet once they test it under different circumstances, like another gun, with a different batch, things change. Now we get the warning.

[Willbird]

I do recall in the mists of history some issues with blue dot in VERY cold weather causing pressure excursions with loads that were safe in warmer weather....we're talking -20 F or colder. I wonder if this is related to the problem, it was 357 magnum the gun writer was talking about too as I recall, it was back in the 1960's in a magazine article.

Bill

[jimkim]

I wonder if Hercules Blue dot is safe(it has been for twenty years or so)? I am down to a half pound of it. I think they should go back to the old proven powder formulas and quit their tinkering. I would hate to quit doing business with them.

[Larry Gibson]

Heavy metal

I didn't mention SEE at all nor did it enter my mind. With regards to the rifle guys my thought woul lean more to BD not burning at a linear rate above a certain pressure level. A pressure spike there would not be SEE, which actually creates a bore obstruction that leads to high pressure, but simply over pressure to a dangerous degree at a high level.

Here's some data from a very recent post on the other forum;

Blue Dot:

223 & 36 grain Barnes Varmint Grenade HP.

Primer: CCI Small Pistol

Brass: Lake City

Rifle : Ruger 77 Mk 2

Barrel: 22inch


1. 7 grs: 1946 fps
2. 8 grs: 2286 fps
3. 9 grs: 2477 fps
4. 10 grs; No Reading
5. 11 grs: 2704 fps
6. 12 grs: 3024 fps
7. 13 grs: 3201 fps
8. 14 grs: 3321 fps

I'm no rocket scientist but 14 gr of BD giving 3321 fps (even with a light wieght 32 gr bullet) out of a .223 seems a little "over the top" for me. I've not tested it but I still can't but wonder......

Back to the .357; every time you trade something off after convincing yourself you'ld have no further need for it it comes back to bite you. If I still had the 10" Contender .357 barrel I would conduct pressure tests. But alas I traded it off. I really don't want to attach a permanat strain gauge to the cylinder of the Ruger.

Larry Gibson

[HeavyMetal]

Gentleman:
You'll notice the question marks on each of the questions I asked in the previous post.

I was not suggesting, nor telling, merely pointing out that guys using Blue Dot in the .223 would not be a reason to ban loads for the pistol rounds.

Nor would that be a reason to jump on the SEE bandwagon! Again a question mark.

Pressure testing from a site member would go a long way in relieving many members thoughts about using BlueDot. Unfortunately none of us may have access to the specific lot that may or may not have created the problem. Without a sample from the specific lot of BlueDot in question testing gets us nothing.

We can speculate tell the cows come in but the bottom line is until we hear what actually happened and to whom from a verifiable source we are doing just that: speculating!


Once again I will say that we need more information. I doubt Alliant will make anything public at this time, and if they do it will be filtered through a lawyer, so we can only hope a "source" make themselves known.

In the mean time all we are actually doing is starting rumors and myths.

[35remington]

"Nor would that be a reason to jump on the SEE bandwagon! Again a question mark."

Right you are. However, you must recognize that a fast powder like Blue Dot has nothing to do with SEE.

Whatever is going on is not that phenomenon. As I mentioned earlier.

"Pressure testing from a site member would go a long way in relieving many members thoughts about using BlueDot."

Not necessarily. We may not have the particular gun type or conditions that may result in a problem.

So let's just see if there's more enlightenment.

"In the mean time all we are actually doing is starting rumors and myths."

I agree.

[shooter93]

The notice could simply mean they had trouble...ie blow ups in a very small number of firearms so the ere' on the side of caution. Also powder formulas change a small amout as well as their burning rates....loads listed for 2400 for example...the newer 2400 is much hotter than the old. the stand by load of Elmer...22 gr. 2400 with a 250 gr. bullet is now excessive. Things change...Alliant is being cautious.....if a firearm you are using had a failure when your child was shooting it would you say...oh...my fault....or call a lawyer.

[Johnch]

Has anyone else thought
Maybe the newest batch is a little different how it's burn rate is at a certain pressure curve ?

I know powder has changes from lot to lot

As I test every lot of Steel powder I get
If I take Allaint Steel Lot 12 as the norm
It toped out at 10500 PSI at 1675 FPS ( max I could safely use and fit in the case )for my goose load
No lot 13
Lot 14 was 3-5% faster , had a little less bulk and toped out at at 11000PSI at 1650 fps for my goose load
Lot 15 is about 2% slower than lot 12 , tops out at 10200 PSI at 1630 FPS
All tested with a Pressure trace set up on the same day

So IMO probely the Blue Dot just changed a touch and they need to tweek the load data to show what the "NEW" powder lot is doing

John

[jhrosier]

I tried BD in a couple of calibers. It seemed to show signs of high pressure at velocities that 2400 or W296 made with no problem. I did not have any specific problem with BD, but the pressure signs caused me to look elsewhere.
There are more than enough different powders in any given burning rate to justify avoiding even the remote chance of a problem.
I'm sure that BD is a great shotgun powder, but maybe not the best of all possible choices for handguns.

Jack

[Firebird]

I think that Alliant is changing the formulas for it's powders. They admitted it with Red Dot and say the new version burns much cleaner than the old. Alliant says that 2400 hasn't been changed, but it certainly acts different than the old Hercules version.
Now they say that Blue Dot shouldn't be used in the 41 Magnum at all, when it used to be one of the best powders for use in the 41 Magnum. The only failing I found was it was very sensitive to the amount of crimp applied, specially with the lighter 170 grain bullets. When I used my standard strong crimp from the Redding Profile die everything was great. If you didn't crimp, or messed up the neck tension using a standard crimping die then you didn't know if you would get high pressure signs or squibs from the same exact powder loads.
I do wish that Alliant would come clean as to what is going on, something caused them to issue the notice and they should tell us what is going on; even if they are in the middle of legal negotiations over someones lawsuit.

[ForneyRider]

I contacted Alliant Powder about powder load for Power Pistol.

They were very nice and gave me a grain amount.

[twotrees]

I had a project to do for Ga Tech that required 223 FMJ bullets be fired , simulating different ranges. I got down as low as 5 gr to get 22LR velocities (223 at 600 yards).

All were run over a crony and none exhibited anything untoward.

I was shooting at a new armor at 25 yards and managed to "Catch" a 223 FMJ in that 1"X 1/2" X 1/2" piece of armor. Each new, lower, load had to be re-sighted and then 1 shot at the small target. As the target is .5 inches wide and the bullet is .224 you could only be .15 off center to get a valid hit. Otherwise you would get edge effects.

I have heard of problems with loads in the 9-13 gr range in the 223, but my experience sure didn't show it.

I fired over 200 rounds of 55 FMJ's with that powder with great results.

The wife (Her Ruger #1V,223) shot a .236"(C to C) 100 yard group using 11.3 gr Blue Dot under a Nosler 45 Ballistic tip bullet.

Maybe the rumor of them changing the formula is what the problem is. The "Old" stuff was great, for reduced loads in the 223.

As for hand guns, 2400,H110, 296, Unique, BE, red dot, all get the nod in my hand guns. But then again all these shoot real Boolits not that condom stuff.:-D

Good Shooting,

[felix]

Just maybe I could be of help here, considering my experiences with BD. I have used several different older lots of it in quantity, ALL before the formulas started to change. My standard loads were/are 10-150K-357M, 12.5-220K-41M, 14.5-250K-44M, 9-60(225646)-222, all with CCI/Rem standard pistol. I shoot these loads only between 40 and 90 degrees which is in my comfort zone. These older lots are consistent enough day-to-day to where I could not tell any realistic difference in performance, velocity or accuracy.

Yes, the powder pressure spikes tremendously when pushed over the edge. Accuracy is quite smooth when using a quasi 15 percent reduction below that pressure edge which is fairly easy to determine with recoil alone. Unfortunately, accuracy keeps getting better as the edge is approached, and that is a major problem with BD in the hands of inexperienced users.

Along comes WW630 to hopefully take care of that problem. This powder has the speed regulated exactly half way between BD and 2400. There are no powders currently made which fit this bill.

Here is my speculation. It is difficult to formulate a powder in this speed range. BD lot changes of late deal with the dirty bore syndrome, and yet some chemist tried to introduce a formulation to eliminate that top end problem, as well as the crystal changes well below freezing temps. All powders are made with a controlled water content, and perhaps the BD performance range depends on that value being very closely regulated. When the powder dries out in storage of any kind, it's pressure capability is adversely affected because of the lack of tolerance.

In other words, it has been especially difficult to make a powder faster than 2400 and slower than Herco with stability required across all applications, gun and weather combined.

... felix

[Slogg76]

I can not speculate as to what the problem is with Bluedot powder, but I have been using Alliant's Bluedot for several years in 357 magnum and 41 magnums without any problems. I went with Bluedot because the accuracy is superb and H110 was very eratic in both my 41's and 357's. I currently have three pounds of the stuff. I hope I don't have to waste it.

[copdills]

Thanks for the information Safty First

[Larry Gibson]

I had a project to do for Ga Tech that required 223 FMJ bullets be fired , simulating different ranges. I got down as low as 5 gr to get 22LR velocities (223 at 600 yards).

All were run over a crony and none exhibited anything untoward.

I was shooting at a new armor at 25 yards and managed to "Catch" a 223 FMJ in that 1"X 1/2" X 1/2" piece of armor. Each new, lower, load had to be re-sighted and then 1 shot at the small target. As the target is .5 inches wide and the bullet is .224 you could only be .15 off center to get a valid hit. Otherwise you would get edge effects.

I have heard of problems with loads in the 9-13 gr range in the 223, but my experience sure didn't show it.

I fired over 200 rounds of 55 FMJ's with that powder with great results.

The wife (Her Ruger #1V,223) shot a .236"(C to C) 100 yard group using 11.3 gr Blue Dot under a Nosler 45 Ballistic tip bullet.

Maybe the rumor of them changing the formula is what the problem is. The "Old" stuff was great, for reduced loads in the 223.

As for hand guns, 2400,H110, 296, Unique, BE, red dot, all get the nod in my hand guns. But then again all these shoot real Boolits not that condom stuff.:-D

Good Shooting,

Two trees

I've fired quite abit of reduced loads with .223s using J bullets also. A favorite was the M193 bullet pulled, powder dumped and replaced with the powder from a .45 or 9mm and with the bullet seated in backwards and crimped with blasting cap crimpers (the SF engineer on the Team had those of course) . Velocity was 1500+ fps, accuracy good (especially with bullet reseated backwards) and sounded about like the blank out of my M61A1. They didn't function the action BTW. Did quite a bit of hunting down in the Panama and Hondo jungles, guess I read Whelen's writing about his trips and reduced loads in his '03 when he was down that way.

Anyways I don't think the reduced load of 11 gr BD you were/are using is where the problem might be. The potential problem seems would come with the 14 gr loads where the pressures are high and the BD might not burn in a linear fashion. Again, just assumptions here as I've not conducted any tests. Might be as some others mention; just Alliant being careful.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

I can not speculate as to what the problem is with Bluedot powder, but I have been using Alliant's Bluedot for several years in 357 magnum and 41 magnums without any problems. I went with Bluedot because the accuracy is superb and H110 was very eratic in both my 41's and 357's. I currently have three pounds of the stuff. I hope I don't have to waste it.

I'm about in the ame boat you are. BD is my "go to" powder for magnum loads in the .357 and .41. It also is my high performance powder in the Spanish Destroyer With the barrel set back to headspace on .38 Super cases. I have almost 4 pounds of BD and quite a few .41s loaded with it. Not so many .357s but still a pain if I decide to pull 'em.

Larry Gibson

[Wayne Smith]

Were the Alliant loads different from the loads from other companies? I read the warning to be a retraction of their data, not a blanket retraction of the powder in those applications.

[runfiverun]

i am in felix's camp here...
i think they are trying to keep up with the hodgdons line and they missed something
with the new stuff.
blue dot has long lost it's effectiveness in the cold,,,hence the steel powder.
i have thrown a few loads together with steel and there are some posssibilities there
but it is a pain to measure.
a reduction in moisture content would shrink the powder, and cause a lower reading
on your scale causing you to use more.
both potential problems.

[Camba]

I have experimented loads with BD for a number of years and developed my own loading tables for the following cartridges:
1. 223 Rem, 55gr j-bullet, WIN/CCI small pistol primers, Max load (in my rifle only) 12gr of BD (2560fps). After that, the primers begin showing pressure signs.
2. 7mm-08 Rem, 130gr Speer, Win/CCI LP/LR primers, Best accuracy 16 to 17gr BD at 1970fps.
3. 218 Bee, 45gr Hornet bullet, CCI-500 sp primers, Max (my Taurus revolver load) 7.5gr BD, 1600fps
And pretty much all the guns and calibers that I own including shotgun and pistols (9mmP, 357 mag, 38 spc, 44 mag, 45 colt, 45acp, etc.)
I did the experiment with all the powders and primers and worked out my loads a 0.5gr increments in large cases and 0.1 increments in smaller cases.
I developed my loading table using pistol primers and stop when crater begin to show or other primer pressure signs. I also used a Chrony for measuring speed.
I happen to believe that the powder manufacturers follow their quality controls on powder production. Packaging, in the other hand could mix things up but BD has the famous blue color flakes. Every lot is tested to the recipe standard and if for some reason it does not meet the spec, it becomes something else. Scrap. If they want to change the characteristics of that powder, then they make a new product and they obsolete the old. Pretty much all manufactures of powder do that.
Anyway, my point is that I love BD powder for my all around reloading at lower velocities than the "normal" loads using the proper rifle powders. The credit goes to other persons that published low velocity loaded rounds for multiple calibers using BD. I found it interesting, tried, and got hooked. And I had just recently found 10 lbs of BD so I am all set for sometime. Remember that every rifle is different and the loads I mentioned were tailored to my own guns only.
Camba

[TMenezes]

You brought back this post from 2008? Why not just start a new thread? I was exited about Blue Dot for awhile as the books showed it delivered impressive velocity at standard pressures in 45 Colt. It was fun to shoot as it made my standard pressure loads feel like magnums with all the blast and impressive flash. But I was never was able to get very good accuracy with it in my revolvers or lever guns, no idea why. Same guns, brass, boolits, and everything. So I don't use it much at the moment. Maybe someday I'll find combo that works great for it, but for now it sits rarely used anymore.

Thing is, if your looking for low pressure loads in pistol calibers I have had great luck with Tightgroup, 700X, Trail Boss, and a few other much faster burning powders than Blue Dot. I've always thought of Blue Dot as a powder for semi magnum type loads. With 12.9gr loads in 45 Colt (max listed by Alliant) it burned clean, but at the starting loads I was getting unburned powder spitting out of my revolver onto my hands and arms.

[uscra112]

I'll go with the lawyer-phobia theory. They saw something in testing. They don't know what it is. But if they don't post the warning, and some lawyer gets hold of their data during disclosure in some current or future lawsuit, the "failure to warn" theory gets the lawyers another 50 million in damages. This happens all the time in pharmaceutical lawsuits. One of the tricks that "Silky Pony" Edwards use to make himself rich.

I use BD in my 7.5x55 with some hard boolits to get 2200 fps, and great accuracy. Still using up a store of 2400 in my .357.

Trying to duplicate top slow powder velocities in bottleneck cartridges by using BD seems a recipe for trouble, IMHO. Pressure spikes pretty much guaranteed.


EDIT: - Hah! didn't notice that this was a 2008 thread!! :oops:

[Camba]

My bad. I did not pay attention to the date. It was one of the threads that I had not read so it was for some reason at my finger tips reach.
Camba

[dverna]

Camba,

I am glad you resurrected this old thread. I had not heard of the pressure spike issue with BD. I bought some BD recently to try to push 9mm velocity in a carbine but will not try that now.

Thanks,

Don Verna

[mdi]

When this warning first came out and reading many, many posts about .357 and 41 Magnum loads I came to the conclusion that some combinations of 125 gr. bullets over Bluedot in .357 Magnum could produce pressure spikes (not every load, but the possibility still existed). I think if it were absolutely a dangerous combination, all the Bluedot would be recalled and production stopped (I never heard of a kaboom with BD in these calibers). Same with .41 Magnum, the possibility of pressure spike existed and to be on the safe side Alliant posted the warning. I still use Bluedot in my .44 Magnums with 250 gr. and 265 gr bullets...

[leadman]

I spoke with Ben at Alliant about this when it came out. They did notice pressure anomalies with the light bullets in 357 and in several loads in the 41 mag. They didn't bother to run a series of tests on the 41 but just gave a "don't use it in the 41" statement.
I explained my cast boolit load with velocity readings and case measurements and he said mine was a good load.
I recently bought some Alliant Power Pro 300 MP (magmun pistol) and there was no 41 mag data I could find so called Alliant. Once again they did not consider the 41 mag worthy of developing load data for.

[Digital Dan]

Having seen the notice from Alliant some time back and their very specific exclusions for load combos I would be inclined to think new data or multiple recent events precipitated the event.

There is a fella wandering cyberspace who has done a lot of work with BD and bottle neck cases, notably the .223. He has been forthright in publishing the spread of data, to include the point where pressure signs began to manifest. I've had no problems with his data at charge levels at or below his expressed or implied maximum loads. That said, there was a recent event where a guy rudely dismantled his rifle at a public range while shooting a .223 bolt gun with BD. Question is open as to whether the fella was conforming to recommended loads or perhaps double charged a case.

There was some conversation above about burn rates being altered by increased pressure. The operative word for that is quickness. Burn rates are a constant but quickness is highly variable and influenced by each and every aspect of a given cartridge and load menu.

[Larry Gibson]

Since starting this thread years ago I have ran pressure tests of BD in the 357 and 44 magnums. I have found "pressure anomalies" in both cartridges only when the BD was compressed. Those "anomalies" were a degradation of pressure as more BD was added and compressed. There is a sticky on the 44 Magnum test.

I did find that an older max load under a 125 gr JSP in the .357 from a couple manuals, while showing absolutely no psi problems in my Ruger Security Six or Contender, gave an average psi of 42,200 psi(M43). There were no "pressure spikes", just an even but high time/pressure curve. I've found BD to be an excellent powder for magnum level loads in the 41 and 44 magnums also when the powder is not compressed.

Larry Gibson

[Sig]

The one thing about this that I can't wrap my head around is Alliant still lists BD loads for 110, 140, 158 & 170gn bullets. I could understand if Alliant had removed the 110gn as well as the 125gn. But how can a weight that falls in between two safe weights test dangerous?

[TMenezes]

I wouldn't hesitate to try Blue Dot with any current load data. I'm not the least bit worried as I trust current pressure tested data, especially since I usually use heavier lead slugs instead of the light weight jacketed rounds. Also I don't load near max in high pressure magnums, just no need to generate more recoil than necessary. I'm looking more for accuracy than all out power.

[30calflash]

The one thing about this that I can't wrap my head around is Alliant still lists BD loads for 110, 140, 158 & 170gn bullets. I could understand if Alliant had removed the 110gn as well as the 125gn. But how can a weight that falls in between two safe weights test dangerous?

Years back the NRA did a lot of testing for 308 M14 loads as it was the service rifle at that time. There was one load with IMR 4320 with a certain combination of case brand, bullet and primer that went thru the roof at times. All standard weight match bullets and components from US manufacturers. Wide spreads in velocity and pressure. Other components used even when only one was changed did not have the sane end result.

.The story was "don't use this combo" Period. No reason besides that. Just a recommendation to thoughtful reloaders.

Some things don't add up mathematically but it's just like a lot of other things, there can always be the exception.

[osteodoc08]

My email reply said they were having pressure spikes. I just don't understand how it would spike in 41 for all loads and not in 357/44/45.

[osteodoc08]

I spoke with Ben at Alliant about this when it came out. They did notice pressure anomalies with the light bullets in 357 and in several loads in the 41 mag. They didn't bother to run a series of tests on the 41 but just gave a "don't use it in the 41" statement.
I explained my cast boolit load with velocity readings and case measurements and he said mine was a good load.
I recently bought some Alliant Power Pro 300 MP (magmun pistol) and there was no 41 mag data I could find so called Alliant. Once again they did not consider the 41 mag worthy of developing load data for.

This really is a shame. I've often felt they tested a few and didn't want to waste the time for a "non mainstream" cartridge like the 41Mag.

I've got a jug of BD. I'd really like to use some in my mid 41 mag boolit loads.

[MtGun44]

"Alliant says that 2400 hasn't been changed, but it certainly acts different than the old Hercules version. "

I strongly disagree with this statement. I have both powders in stock and have several times loaded and
compared, NO difference other than the normal small lot-to-lot variation. This baloney gets repeated
again online and people start believing it. Baloney.

I'll make exactly the same statement about Unique. Old and new are not distinguishable in my
experience, running cans from both eras.

Bill

[Larry Gibson]

MtGun44 is correct and Alliant is correct; 2400 and Unique have not changed. I have pressure tested both old Hercules and new Alliant of each and as he says the only variation is typical lot to lot variation.

Newer peizo-transducer and strain gauge psi readings with complete time/pressure trace measurements and compliance with SAAMI specifications is what has caused many of the older C.U.P. pressure read loads to have been reduced. Internet conjecture is just that; conjecture though some call it BS.

Larry Gibson

[GP100man]

WOW 08, thread from the dead !!!!

But new reloaders either to the powder or reloading ,questions are welcomed anytime !!!

Anyways ,here`s my exp. & theory on BD after shotting LBS. of it .

As pressure goes higher the peak is closer to the instant the 125gr. jacketed bullet hits the forcing cone ,placing the base very near the cyl. gap & each chamber is it`s own entity, & I`ve seen eroded & cracked cyl. faces, forcing cones & top strap cutting from extended use of such loads .

Now , in my short time of 31yrs. of handloading & casting I`ve found that many powders meant/developed for shotgun use gets very sensitive when pressures go up & temps change !
BDs formula seems to magnify the affects.

For these purposes I`ve not stopped useing BD but limit it`s use & not at pressures I once did when I was younger & dumber !!!

Wanted to add: My limited use of unique & alot of 2400 show no change other than normal lot-to-lot variances which my lots have been very close.

GP

[TXGunNut]

Interesting zombie thread. I recall the warning and accompanying speculation but never gave it much thought as I have never used any of the "dot" powders or loaded much in the way of max .357 loads or .41 loads. Makes one appreciate how complex the formulation and testing of smokeless powder truly is.

[cwheel]

When working up .357 loads with 125 jacketed HP rounds, pre-warning, I got up to 13.5gr. and quit. This was one hot round in a 686 and rifle. I pulled down the remaining rounds and worked up milder rounds with Unique. Talk about fireball and recoil, flattened primers as well. No comfort with this stuff. My BD is stuff that's at least 20 years old now, so not some new formulation. The Sierra pistol loading handbook lists a charge of 14.9 with a 125 gr. before the warning. 13.5 shut me down with less than a dozen fired. Can't speak to any newly formulated BD, but I can say the warning sure has merit with my older lot. I have a special note on this loading in my Sierra Handgun Loading Manual ( 3rd edition ) To this day that loading was the hottest .357 round ever fired by me, factory or reload.
Chris