Help me out here!

[TexasGrunt]

198728

Brand new NOE mold. Washed it, heat cycled it three times. Gave it a light smoke, did a run of about 300 that I wasn't really happy with but they'll make good plinkers. Today I broke it out and started casting again.

Almost every bullet had these tears on the bands. I checked the mold with a cotton swab and a cotton ball. There's no burrs.

[Grmps]

this could be caused by not venting right - make sure the vent lines are clear
I would try throwing in a little more tin
if not heat the pot up a little
scrub the molds again thoroughly
Lastly if not I would polish the cylinders VERY LIGHTLY ( a bullet from ea cylinder with a screw in it, a little fine polish of toothpaste and slowly spin for 15 - 30 seconds

[David2011]

TG,

Hope you're feeling better. That looks a lot like a problem I posted a couple of months ago. Many told me my mold was cold but I knew that was not the issue. I was using alloy from a friend that I had not processed myself. Once I fluxed it with sawdust those pits disappeared. Not much to lose by trying!

David

[Larry Gibson]

Alloy?

Alloy temp?

Larry Gibson

[JWT]

Try fluxing again. Is this a brass or aluminum mold?

[Dusty Bannister]

Consider trying a different mold at a known setting that has worked in the past. Then you will have an idea if it might be the alloy or temp or mold. It does look like the bands are rounded, but no idea what your specs or mold is supposed to produce. If these actually are tears, check to be sure the blocks are not loose and flop on the handles. Ladle or bottom pour? Different day, different issues? No sense in comparing the weight as there are voids so nothing to be found there.

Maybe a quick hardness test might give some indication if the alloy is contaminated, but with newly cast and old on the shelf bullets, that may not show anything either.

[jcren]

Looks to me like a combination of opening the mold too soon (for that mold in its current state anyway) and alloy sticking slightly to the new mold. Slow the opening to see if they set better and heat cycle for patina or treat with liquid wrench dry film (great stuff btw, no build up and can't even see it on the mold, but stops sprue plate scuffing and seals micro pores in mold). Just an idea, worth exactly what it cost ya!

[Yodogsandman]

Mold and/or alloy too cold. Maybe add some tin.

[TexasGrunt]

Alloy, 50/50 wheel weights/pure with an additional 1% tin. Later during the run I went to 2% additional tin to see if it helped. It didn't.
Alloy temp 775
Aluminum mold
Mold is hot. I use a hot plate to keep the pins hot, I had some frosty boolits that had the same problem.

I've fluxed in the pot with sawdust and beeswax.

I've got no problem with my other molds, used during the same session. My Arsenal mold was pouring just fine.

Bottom pour pot. RCBS Pro-Melt.

I had the same problem with another NOE mold, it had TL grooves so it wasn't as obvious. I'll get that mold out today and see how it's running.

[trapper9260]

Try fluxing again. Is this a brass or aluminum mold? I say fluxing also. It look like it need to be.It will help. also for the mold.need to keep it hot. I use NOE molds and I do not have that problem and I use different cals from NOE and also other makes and do not have that problem.I flux always when I cast .I use a bottom pour mainly. When I use just the pot, I flux then skim and then cast.

[EMC45]

I would run them as hot as possible until they start dropping frosty. Then back off and see how it does. I have had this issue with Lee aluminum molds and drove me a little batty to start with. I would clean them, acetone them- all the tricks and have the same results you're getting. Only until I heated that sucker up till it started dropping frosty bullet, did it "do right".

[HangFireW8]

The pic isn't real sharp. Might have a technique problem with the dropped boolits hitting the far side of the mold. This happens to me most with a sticky mold.

-HF

[mdi]

Personally, I wouldn't smoke the cavities. Smoking is just adding carbon to the mold cavities and mebbe clogging the vent lines. I'd clean and just cast until I "broke in" the mold. I haven't smoked a cavity in many years, aluminum and/or steel molds...

[Springfield]

Don't know about the "tears' but it is obvious that the bands are not filling out. It is also too shiny, just need to get that mould up to temp. 300 bullets is nothing, that mould isn't even close to being broke in yet. How long do you wait for the sprue to cool on this one?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I see rounded bands. that can be venting, or it can be shrinkage. Shrinkage happens when the sprue freezes before the alloy in the cavity. As the alloy in the cavity freezes, it needs to draw molten alloy from the sprue. The remedy to that is to keep the sprue plate HOT by pouring a large sprue puddle.

BUT, you said "tearing" and then a few posts down, you said "Pins".
If this is a new hollow point mold, the pins may be sticking to the boolits, so when the mold is opened, that can tear the bands. The remedy is to polish the pins (where they contact the boolit) and then season them by heat cycles and/or casting. I've owned a few NOE RG style HP molds (I still have one), and even after I polished the pins, they still take several casting sessions to break-in. Keep trying, keep casting.
Good Luck.

PS: Also, while I almost never smoke my molds, I did smoke HP pins until they were seasoned enough to no longer stick ...I also tried sprue plate lube (2 cycle oil) on the pins, it works but is risky, as you can easily get oil in the cavities and wreck that casting session, at least that happened to me more than once.

[Smoke4320]

TexasGrunt

you have enough tin with 1-2%, heating the mold with a hotplate , fluxing .. all sounds good
I have had that issue myself with a couple of NOE Aluminum molds, not all of them, not even most of them, but a couple problem children .
did the full clean , degrease, heat cycle thing ..
After driving myself almost crazy trying different things I discovered that if I did a very small run of 50 or so bullets (with no care at to how they turned out) dump then back in the pot call it a day or 1/2 day (let everything cool all the way down).. do this 3 times . the 4th time every one of them cast like a dream
maybe it a buildup of oxides/conditioning I don't know what but its worked for my problem molds so far
Its worth a shot so to speak

[John Boy]

Bottom pour pot. RCBS Pro-Melt.
Here's your issue ... Your melt is cooling with your pour and the mold is not filling completely. Notice that the GG bands are rounded and the base is rounded also
Heat the mold and the melt up to a temperature so that with a 5 second pour (nozzle in the sprue plate hole) the sprue puddle frosts in 8 - 10 seconds.

[ghh3rd]

I had a mold that I tried every once in a while that would always do that. It finally started raining good boolits when my thermometer reached 775 - 800, got frosty well filled out boolits that shrank a little when cooled but still bigger than my sizer.

Oh yeah, forgot to mention that it also requires me to push the mold up against the bottom pour so the lead is forced into the mold - else still not perfect boolits.

[stubert]

I have an NOE brass mold that will not make a good bullet until the mold hits 375 degrees. I had it drilled for a temp. probe when I oedered it. Get it up to 350 degrees, on a hotplate, then try it.

[Hickory]

I think I know what's causing your problem.
I had this happen the other day while casting.

Let me guess, when you were prepping your mold you put a little dab of lube of some sort on the sprew plate hinge pin.
Sometimes if you get a little too much it will seep over into one cavity and cause an incomplete fillout like you have in your picture.
What I do is keep casting until it goes away.

[TexasGrunt]

It's not a lube problem.

Here is a link to some pictures I took today of both my NOE hollow point mold boolits. http://imgur.com/a/piSa5

It's pretty bad. I cranked the Pro-Melt all the way up. It's running 790-810° on my Lyman thermometer. I tried opening the molds over a sheet of printer paper and you could see the tiny bits of lead that came off the boolits on the paper.

Frankly I'm a bit disappointed to have spent the money for these, followed the directions to the letter and then have these kinds of problems. I don't know, perhaps the hollow point molds are a different beast. I know that my Arsenal mold received the same cleaning, followed by a smoke and it's raining perfect boolits from the very start. I've got a used NEI mold that I cleaned up and it's dropping perfect boolits.

The molds are a TL452-230-RF RG2 and a 360-160 WFN RG2. The 452 has had 7 or 8 sessions and at least 1500 boolits through it. It's the second session for the 360 and a total around 800 so far.

I spent four hours working with these two molds today.

50/50 COWW/pure with 2% tin. The molds were preheated on a 450° hot plate. I ran the molds fast, I ran them slow. I cleaned them up, I smoked them, problems never went away.

I know many of you say that you never smoke a mold, just get it hot and there's no problem. With these two molds that doesn't work. They are SMOKING hot. The lube I put on the mounting screws is SMOKING. Without a coat of smoke the boolits look terrible. Swirl marks, voids and gaps. Smoke the mold and these go away. NOE recommends smoking the mold. I follow their directions on their mold.

I'm going to take these two molds apart tomorrow, clean them with denatured alcohol and a new toothbrush. Then I'm going to put them in a pan with water and a couple drops of dish soap and boil them for an hour. See if that helps.

I've got a used Lee .44 hollow point that I cleaned up and it's dropping perfect boolits. I've got a 2C Lee .40 mold that has a hollow point conversion, again I cleaned it up and it's dropping perfect bullets. I really expected more from a NOE mold.

[OS OK]

It sure looks like a combination of problems...one, running the mould borderline too hot and dumping too soon. Tearing before they release.
Another, Some of the areas look like tiny gas bubbles from micro specks of lube or whatever your using on the sprue plate...perhaps the cavities were cleaned to perfection but some lube got drawn in through the sprue plate.
I'm kinda partial to acetone and a toothbrush for a cleaner.
One old Lyman 2C rifle mould of mine gave me the fits...finally I attached a sheetrock screw into the base of a pair of casts and dipped them into rubbing compound for car finishes, spun them with a drill motor for less than a minute rather slowly and that got rid of the imperfections from the mould machine marks and they dropped more willingly without persuasion.
Never have smoked a mould so no help there...
Maybe you ain't holding your mouth right . . . :bigsmyl2:

[TexasGrunt]

I had boolits sit in the mold 45 seconds that had the same problem.

[runfiverun]

give Al a call.

[oldblinddog]

I have had similar problems with every aluminum mold I have ever owned. They were all NOE (Not blaming NOE, I believe it is aluminum that is the problem).

[jmort]

"I believe it is aluminum that is the problem"

For sure not

[oldblinddog]

"I believe it is aluminum that is the problem"

For sure not

In my experience, "for sure, yes". YMMV

[OS OK]

I have had similar problems with every aluminum mold I have ever owned. They were all NOE (Not blaming NOE, I believe it is aluminum that is the problem).

Maybe you will expound on this statement...tell us technically why this is so?

[HangFireW8]

I get sticking boolits in Al molds when the melt is too hot. Try hot mold and medium melt.

Another thing to try is heating the pins with a propane torch, keeping the mold somewhat hot and the pins hotter.

Pin molds have so many things to break in and so many things to go wrong. I had a tough time with my Lee hollow vase shotgun molds at first. It needed a lot a break-in and a lot of smoothing the pin. Just keep trying, and call Al.

-HF

[w5pv]

Didn't see it mention but take some Kroil and a toothbrush and clean the mold real good may do the job for you.

[TexasGrunt]

Didn't see it mention but take some Kroil and a toothbrush and clean the mold real good may do the job for you.

Kroil is OIL. OIL causes problems in molds. I've read the Kroil in a mold thread. Tried it out. Ended up having to clean molds.

[OS OK]

So ? What's the next step your gonna take to figure this anomaly out ?
I always learn something following someone's problem like this...

[LenH]

TexasGrunt - I bought a HP mold from NOE - I still have problems with it. I eased most of the problems when I took the pins and chucked
them in a cordless drill and polished the pins in some 1500 grit sand paper. It doesn't have to be that fine but 800 will do.

Then I heat the pins with a propane torch and it is a very fine line as to when the boolits will fall of the pins. My melt is right at 700°F.
I use a PID for my furnace.

That is the only HP mold I have and it has been an adventure trying to figure the thing out. I called Al while I was having trouble
with the mold and he let out a big sigh, and then explained the process of the pins to me. I got the idea about polishing the pins
from this forum. It really helped.

[Moonie]

I coat my pins with Frankford mold release spray, is it cheating? Maybe, but it works very well.

[TexasGrunt]

Scrubbed both molds down with denatured alcohol this morning. Polished the mating surfaces with a cotton swab. Cleaned up the vent lines with a piece of oak dowel. Removed a couple small specks of lead on the mold faces.

Got them hot on the hot plate and started casting. The only way to stop most of the tearing is to let the mold sit a good 30 seconds and then just start lightly tapping the handles to allow the mold to open and the boolits to release. There's still some tearing, especially with the 230 TL mold. The problem with this method is you can cast 4-5 cycles then you have to reheat the mold.

I really have to put this one down to the aluminum used in these molds is really sticky.

I'm not having problems with the boolits sticking to the pins. It's the tearing on the bands that's driving me nuts.

Right now I'm taking a break because there's a huge thunderstorm moving through and my feather child doesn't like the thunder.

[TexasGrunt]

Well I have it figured out.

With both molds you need to have them and the alloy at the lightly frosty stage.

With the 360 fill both cavities, then when the sprue pool goes dull, give it 5 seconds and knock the sprue off and then dump the boolits. This is giving 95% of the boolits with no tearing.

With the 452TL do the above but it's a 8-10 count.

I did give both molds a VERY light smoke as I was seeing swirls. Just enough smoke to give them a very light golden color.

I did around 200 boolits with each once I figured it out. If you miss that first window you have to wait a good 30 seconds or just know you're going to dump the boolits into the scrap pile.

[oldblinddog]

Well, maybe it's not the aluminum. I just went out and cast about 100 perfect bullets with only one throw back in the bunch. However, I have had that mold 7-8 months and it is the first time it hasn't given me grief. :veryconfu

I stand corrected.

[Outpost75]

This looks like zinc contamination of the melt.

You need to heat the metal past normal casting temperature. about 800 degs F if you have a thermometer, then flux SEVERAL times with oiled sawdust or crushed clay to pull out as much of the junk as you can and then try again.

[OS OK]

It sounds like your running the mould a little cooler than before...right?

[oldblinddog]

If that is directed at me, the answer is no. If not, then disregard the following. The Lyman Big Dipper is turned up all the way and that mold sat on the hot plate a good 45-50 minutes before I started casting. All the bullets were frosted.

[OS OK]

If that is directed at me, the answer is no. If not, then disregard the following. The Lyman Big Dipper is turned up all the way and that mold sat on the hot plate a good 45-50 minutes before I started casting. All the bullets were frosted.

No...not directed at you. I've been talking to the Grunt, about his casting problem.

[TexasGrunt]

No the mold is HOT. Hot enough I can't use my thumb to cut the sprues.

[TexasGrunt]

This looks like zinc contamination of the melt.

You need to heat the metal past normal casting temperature. about 800 degs F if you have a thermometer, then flux SEVERAL times with oiled sawdust or crushed clay to pull out as much of the junk as you can and then try again.

You're late to the party, but thanks for trying. It was a time/temperature issue.

[lightman]

Glad you got it sorted out. Got to be a downer when a new custom mold won't work.

[myg30]

Every mold has its own quirks. It might even pay to keep a note in with the mold as to the best way to cast with it.
Some need to run hotter than normal, sum need to be close to the spout, others need a drop pour or power pour I call it forcing the lead in. The flow rate might need adjusting depending on the boolit size.
I love casting more than reloading. Working with the different molds and there quirks is not an issue to me as I'm never in a rush to cast or reload. I find it relaxing really.

Glad you found the happy spot for that mold and posting here so we all can learn.
Be safe and Happy 4 th

Mike

[BCB]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?337436-N-O-E-Problems&highlight=

I started this thread some time back. Got many replies--most likely the same ones you are getting...

Still, you might find some bit of info if you read through this thread...

I haven't tried my N.O.E. again since the problem as I have plenty of the 311-202-RN cast--Many are perfect, but a few are blemished. Yet, they still shoot just fine...

There seems to be other people who have similar problems...

Good-luck...BCB