Theology forum

[Boaz]

This is the place to discuss your theology opinions .

[Ickisrulz]

This is the place to discuss your theology opinions .

Since the chapel is for "Prayer, praise, and needs" I take it that anything outside of these would go here.

[Preacher Jim]

Yes this is the place to discuss you thoughts
remember theology comes from theos- logos God's word, the study of God's word.

[claude]

Until this has had a good shakedown cruise, I don't envy the moderators seat one bit, I hope the transition goes smoothly.

[Char-Gar]

This will work, IF everybody realizes the Christian faith is a very, very, very big tent with lots of thoughts, theology, notions and opinions, some of which contradict others. Lots of bad theology out there, and some if it might be mine or yours.

Troubles start when somebody believes that their theology, thoughts, notions and opinion are the solid gold, dyed in the wool, absolute, verifiable truth and all others to the contrary are grievous error.

When I was a young Christian lawyer, just converted from raw paganism I read everything I could get my hands on and listened to anything anybody had to say on the matter. I hears lots of "God told me", "God revealed to me", "God taught me", and the "Holy Spirit has shown me". It didn't take me long to come to the conclusion that either God had multiple personality disorder or some of these folks were full of it, for God was showing folks the polar opposite ideas and concepts. After a little prayer and study, I decided that God was OK, but many of his "servants" and mouth pieces were not.

Very quickly, I decided that putting to much stock, in what these folks had to say was stupid or even down right dangerous to my spiritual life. It was then and there, I embarked on a life of independent study and reflection. I have managed to slay a few sacred cows and tip over some apple carts along the way, not to mention irritate some folks really bad.

[UKShootist]

I assume that by the title, the Theology Forum, that it is a place to discuss theology which, by definition, would include the discussion of faiths other than Christianity, or indeed the absence of faith? I think I might get a rough ride for just asking that question.

[OS OK]

I don't imagine it'll be as hard a ride as your getting in the UK right now...I've been waiting for something like this in the Religious arena...this oughta be good!

[dverna]

This will work, IF everybody realizes the Christian faith is a very, very, very big tent with lots of thoughts, theology, notions and opinions, some of which contradict others. Lots of bad theology out there, and some if it might be mine or yours.

Troubles start when somebody believes that their theology, thoughts, notions and opinion are the solid gold, dyed in the wool, absolute, verifiable truth and all others to the contrary are grievous error.

When I was a young Christian lawyer, just converted from raw paganism I read everything I could get my hands on and listened to anything anybody had to say on the matter. I hears lots of "God told me", "God revealed to me", "God taught me", and the "Holy Spirit has shown me". It didn't take me long to come to the conclusion that either God had multiple personality disorder or some of these folks were full of it, for God was showing folks the polar opposite ideas and concepts. After a little prayer and study, I decided that God was OK, but many of his "servants" and mouth pieces were not.

Very quickly, I decided that putting to much stock, in what these folks had to say was stupid or even down right dangerous to my spiritual life. It was then and there, I embarked on a life of independent study and reflection. I have managed to slay a few sacred cows and tip over some apple carts along the way, not to mention irritate some folks really bad.


What he said.

As a recent believer, I see where Char-Gar is coming from. There is a difference between those who have been "indoctrinated" since they were children, and never questioned their religion, and those why have had to "earn" their faith. Part of that process is study and reflection. Part, at least for me, was experiencing great loss and pain, and realizing I did not have the wisdom to deal with it alone. Part of "earning" was learning.

It is one reason I am currently drawn to a nondenominational church. That may change but it where I attend now.

This will be a good forum.

Thanks

[Char-Gar]

I have been called allot of unflattering and some down right nasty names. The only time I was seriously offended was some years back when somebody called me a theologian. I think I shot him, but if I did, it was in Christian love. :-)

[UKShootist]

I have already stated I am an atheist. I feel I must clarify that I do not hate anybody because they are a believer of anything. In fact, AFAIK, I do not hate anybody. I have also claimed to be a 'freethinking' Zen Buddhist for at least 45 years or so. There is no contradiction in this because Zen is more of a philosophy than a religion. It is also the only philosophy that, to me at least, makes sense whether it has a basis in fact or not. My drive is always to seek the truth. that, and 'know thyself'. It helps to recognise that the truth, about anything, including yourself, is sometimes unpleasant and not what you want to hear.

On that basis I look forward to discussions on this forum.

[Char-Gar]

What he said.

As a recent believer, I see where Char-Gar is coming from. There is a difference between those who have been "indoctrinated" since they were children, and never questioned their religion, and those why have had to "earn" their faith. Part of that process is study and reflection. Part, at least for me, was experiencing great loss and pain, and realizing I did not have the wisdom to deal with it alone. Part of "earning" was learning.

It is one reason I am currently drawn to a nondenominational church. That may change but it where I attend now.


This will be a good forum.

Thanks

Most of us who came by faith in Christ as an adult, did so out of a need. Life dealt us a body blow and we decided to rethink our position vis-a-vi Jesus. That was the way it happened for me.

[Pine Baron]

Or a series of body blows, depending on the hardness of your head.

[Char-Gar]

I have already stated I am an atheist. I feel I must clarify that I do not hate anybody because they are a believer of anything. In fact, AFAIK, I do not hate anybody. I have also claimed to be a 'freethinking' Zen Buddhist for at least 45 years or so. There is no contradiction in this because Zen is more of a philosophy than a religion. It is also the only philosophy that, to me at least, makes sense whether it has a basis in fact or not. My drive is always to seek the truth. that, and 'know thyself'. It helps to recognise that the truth, about anything, including yourself, is sometimes unpleasant and not what you want to hear.

On that basis I look forward to discussions on this forum.

In my last church there was a female member who never attended. None-the-less, she got my full pastoral care package and I visited her in her home. She was very interesting and very much into Zen stuff and Yoga. She even had her own facility, taught classes and wrote a book on Texas Yoga, called "Yoga Y'all".

She informed me, she found in her Zen and Yoga all the inner peace and direction she needed. It seemed to work for her, until she developed some bad stage 4 cancer. Her Zen and Yoga rolled snake eyes for her, so she reached out to me.

I did what I could but her years of rejection and taking another road, could not be changed in time keep her from going into a tailspin as she died. She had to much to unlearn and not enough time to do it.

This was not my first experience with people who claimed to be non-believers and who had the Dr. give them the "black spot". All their carefully prepared and well though out objections to orthodox Christianity rolled snake eyes for them. I watched them die, struggling to find faith. Some did and many did not. A faith for living and dieing takes time to develop. If regular deposits are not made, when it comes time to write a check on their faith, it will bounce.

[Char-Gar]

Or a series of body blows, depending on the hardness of your head.

True dat!

[UKShootist]

Here's an issue that has been on my mind for a little while.

Imagine a good and decent man who has lived a full life, done good deeds, has genuinely regretted the 'sins' he has committed and done what he could to remedy them, but has not accepted Christianity. He dies, and presents himself at the Pearly Gates, or whatever scenario you prefer, for judgement, perhaps a judgement he didn't believe he was going to get. OK, he's there in that situation and realises the truth.

Now, by convention of most Christian faiths, had this man accepted Christ as his personal savour on his death bed then he will be saved, whether a good man or a bad man. But corporeal death has suddenly closed the door for such a conversion. It's too late for him, so it seems he is off to hell for all eternity. Consider how long eternity is, it's as long as you could ever imagine, and then it's as long again, and again, ad infinitum. This man might even have been a serial rapist and murderer and is passed into heaven as a result of a deathbed conversion of genuine measure.

I cannot accept that death closes the door on the wishes of a God of love and forgiveness. A God that can forgive the worst criminal on earth but not the decent man. It's a bloody rotten deal.

But I still don't hate any Christian. I will confess to annoyance at the ones who simply condemn me to eternal hell rather than hope that by setting a worthwhile example they might give me cause to convert.

There ya go.

[jmort]

^^^
This is a theological question
If he never heard about Jesus and never had an opportunity to be saved it seems, based on the Bibile, it will be between him and God to work it out as to his place in eternity. The Bible says all people, excepting young children and those with serious "brain" issues, know right and wrong and accordingly that will be the measure. Have you heard about Jesus and The Good News of salvation and rejected it, refused to accept the free gift? The Bible says that would be a very bad end game.

[UKShootist]

I perhaps should have made it clearer in that he had been informed about Jesus, perhaps even lived next door to a church. But did not accept the faith.

[jmort]

That sounds like a bad ending. Rejecting Jesus would be a bad choice. No one on earth can judge that man, but God can and will. I have at least one brother who is not saved and it breaks my heart to think about him. There is still hope as long as he is alive. Which reminds me, I need to pray for the right person to come into his life and lead him to salvation. Comming from me has been fruitless.

[DCP]

^^^
This is a theological question
If he never heard about Jesus and never had an opportunity to be saved it seems, based on the Bibile, it will be between him and God to work it out as to his place in eternity. The Bible says all people, excepting young children and those with serious "brain" issues, know right and wrong and accordingly that will be the measure. Have you heard about Jesus and The Good News of salvation and rejected it, refused to accept the free gift? The Bible says that would be a very bad end game.

Excellent answer

[UKShootist]

That is the part I find difficult. First that the decision has to be made before death, in a world where there are so many religions. Consider the average, decent, Muslim, they do exist BTW and in their millions, who knows of Jesus as a prophet but has been taught that he was not a saviour. If he has lead a good and honourable life, should he still be off to hell, with all those other millions? It seems that the only way a person could reject Jesus is to His face. Then he's off to the other place, and that's fine with me. Is it true Christianity for a good man to face Jesus, and realising the all too obvious truth, that if he asked Jesus for forgiveness it would be denied?

[DCP]

You accept Jesus as your savior or you dont
Matthew 7:2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged ...

Jesus died for our sins because the cost of sins is death he paid with his blood for us

"Is it true Christianity for a good man to face Jesus, and realising the all too obvious truth, that if he asked Jesus for forgiveness it would be denied?"

Thats between God and the person I will not judge

[Char-Gar]

UKShootist....Your question has bothered many people and not just you. The traditional fundamentalist answer is well that is just too bad, off to hell you go. Other folks try and find an answer with more grace that law.

There are many universalists who say, everybody is going to heaven and that is that. God is to graceful to hold anybody eternally accountable.

Then, there are the folks who tend to see it more like you. Once a fellow has the opportunity to say yes to Jesus, seeing all of His full glory, nobody is going to say no. This is not pure universalism, as it preserves human choice, albeit after death.

There is one piece of the Apostle's Creed that says Jesus descended into hell (i.e. the place of the dead) for three days. Some folks understand that He preached to the dead folks. Here is a link to a pretty good article on that subject. It is a 2,000 article from Christianity Today a conservative publication.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/february7/31.74.html

Me? I don't spend to much time trying to figure all of this out, for it isn't my business. It is God's business and we know him through Jesus to be loving and graceful. We can count on God to do the right thing, in these matters that seem so murky to humans. Whatever God does will be far and away better than any of my thinking on this riddle.

[UKShootist]

So that's every Muslim on Earth that's ever been is in hell or heading there? Billions of them? And, of course, all the 'Sunday Christians' too. And all the Jews? I presume some of the Hindu's might get to safe ground if they've never heard of Jesus, but all the ones that have but didn't covert, them too.

But the question remains, why can't a good man accept Jesus after he's died?

[UKShootist]

Me? I don't spend to much time trying to figure all of this out, for it isn't my business. It is God's business and we know him through Jesus to be loving and graceful. We can count on God to do the right thing, in these matters that seem so murky to humans. Whatever God does will be far and away better than any of my thinking on this riddle.

Now, that positively reeks of goodness through and through. For whatever the thoughts of this 'hate filled atheist' :roll: are worth.

[jmort]

New International Version
Hebrews 9:27
"Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment"

This is what we know. I doubt there is a provision for a post mortem meeting with Jesus and another bite at the apple.

[dverna]

UKShootist,

I used the same argument when I was an atheist. It seems unfair. I still struggle with it now that I am a believer.

Here are my thoughts. I do not believe God is insecure. He does not need us...but we need Him. He is not a slave master seeking servants to praise Him. He wants us to be good Christians, and that means living as good a life as we can and helping those we are empowered to help. By living that way, we help the world be a better place and we feel good about ourselves. We are His servants on earth with the primary service of helping mankind...not to tell Him how great He is. He already knows that!

I do not believe 100% of the Bible is 100% accurate. There are many passages even scholars disagree with.

There is a human need that is exploited by religions that promises something after death. Christianity is no different. Accepting Jesus as our Savior may have been part of the "sales pitch" to encourage belief in Christ. And the "sales pitch" may be true, but it may not be the only way to Heaven.

There is a certain smugness Christians have about their entitlement to eternity in Heaven. I believe that accepting Jesus is one path but not the only one. I did not become a believer to achieve eternal life, but accept it as a blessing of my faith in Christ.

[Wayne Smith]

Probably one of the hardest things to assert as a final answer is: "I don't know". Yet many of the difficult issues in theology end up there. I think it is a willingness to humbly accept that there are many things in God that I simply cannot know in this body to do so.

[jmort]

^^^
That would be the answer to most of these questions. I find the discussion interesting, but most issues discussed and argued are not essential to salvation.

[Char-Gar]

Probably one of the hardest things to assert as a final answer is: "I don't know". Yet many of the difficult issues in theology end up there. I think it is a willingness to humbly accept that there are many things in God that I simply cannot know in this body to do so.

In 1970, I headed back to school (Seminary) for another three years of post graduate education. I made a list of the questions I wanted answered in those three years and I came up with 26 questions. Toward the end of my Senior year a professor asked me if I was happy with my Seminary education.

I told him about my list and said not only were none of the questions answered, but the list of questions had grown from 26 to almost 200. I expressed disappointment that my list had only grown after three years. He looked at me and said, "Well, I hope the quality of your questions are better now for, the three years spent.".

It is human nature to want hard and fast answers, but when it comes to God, there are precious few answers. However the few we do have are enough.

[Blackwater]

UK, you ask the crucial question that non-believers always have. And the answer may not be easy to understand, but I believe it to be THE answer to your question.

First, let's acknowledge that Christ himself said "No man cometh unto the father but by me." Christ is THE only way to Salvation in the afterlife. No other animal ever created has done this. Only man. No other creature has evidenced self-awareness, and projection into the future like mankind has. He has a spark of SOMETHING that no other animal in our known universe has. He's just "different." Now when it comes to answering the question of WHY he's so different and unique, one can develop many answers, but Christianity, more discerningly and definitively, has answered that question in what is, and must in fact be, the most "logical" manner possible. If indeed there IS a real God, and if indeed He DID create everything in the known universe, including us, then would we not owe Him our homage, respect, and even worship? God installed SOMETHING within humanity that He gave to no other creature on earth, and not only that, but instructed us to have dominion over all the other creatures of the earth. Other man-made speculations don't and can't ever answer that question nearly as definitively and with the finality that the Christian faith has. But that's their little red wagon to attend to, nor that of those of us with real Faith. To us, it really doesn't matter HOW God created everything that we know. What MATTERS is simply that He did it. It's really just that simple, and all other views are almost if not entirely a derivitive of what we WANT to believe. Christians have no real problem with evolution, IF that's how God decided to make all that is occur as it has. They only want to know the Truth,

Man, on the other hand, has this large brain God has given us (and that we usually don't use nearly as much as we should), that makes us unique in that we have a RESPONSIBILITY for our actions. We have this responsibility BECAUSE we know good from evil, as it has increasingly become defined through the millenea. We're even told that Cain killed Abel! So we know evil has existed on a very serious level for almost all of our history. THIS is what separates man from all other creatures upon the earth. It's simple and elemental, and really, it's undeniable as well, if one truly thinks critically and with precision. Some like to try to draw in all manner of confusions into all this, but they're all just red herrings, probably planted by Satan to divert as many as possible from the Truth. Ultimately, all real Truth seems to be very simple. It's that way in physics, as well. The simplest theories seem to explain or solve the most questions and enigmas!

Ultimately, I think, that kind'a proves pretty well that God is really a very simple entity, even though He is MUCH greater and more powerful and knowing and discerning and knowledgeable than any of us simple, finite humans could ever be. And He's also loving. He HAS to be or else, why would He have created and sustained us as He has for so long as He's done so? He WANTS us to thrive and survive, and all He asks in return is His just due! How much simpler could anything be than that?

This brings us to your question. And the answer is that, just as Christ stated, He really IS "the way, the Truth and the Life," and nobody comes to God or Heaven except through Him. When God found that even his messages sent through the prophets were insufficient to keep us in line, and thus, happy, well fed, etc., etc., instead of wiping us out and starting over, He sent a little bit of Himself to earth in the form and body of Jesus, the Christ, His literal Son, but to make Christ more believable, and to give us all a "role model" we could more fully identify with, he decreed that he be born just like any other man, but made Him very special, in that He was born of a virgin - something many still mock and declaim and simply disbelieve because they really, internally, simply don't WANT to believe that would ever be really possible in their own perceived, finite and very limited and God-less world. But it's really not that difficult a concept to understand and believe, even if at least a portion of it has to be taken on faith. If God really exists, and if He really loves us, why wouldn't He do exactly as the Bible says He did? It's really not all that "unbelievable." It's supernatural, sure, but what about the supernatural is so impossible to believe??? To think all we know physically, is all that there is, is pretty assumptive, and given that man has always exhibited a belief in something beyond, I don't see it as particularly difficult to accept that there really IS something more and bigger and more loving and just than we ever COULD be. But again, that's a matter for each person to decide for themselves. But the protestations I hear so often are pretty obviously a result of a natural DISinclination to believe, and that cannot be overcome so long as one is determined to hold onto that point of view and concept. Only those who are legitimately OPEN to receiving the real truth can ever truly find it, and many, needless to say, simply aren't even open to it. But those who are, and who legitimately and honestly and earnestly seek the REAL answers, really CAN find them. But they can't just pick it off some vine, or find it in some arbitrarily chosen book. They have to start with the Bible, and usually, then they have to read some good commentary on the Bible, and reading the commentary of some Faithful scientists can also help overcome the finite point of view that many seem so wedded to in order to maintain their disbelief.

The Bible promises "Those who seek shall find." What it doesn't say, is that if a person goes seeking the answers he WANTS, he'll inevitably find explanations that support what he WANTS to believe. But if he's really, truly and honestly seeking Truth, he CAN also find THAT, too. It's really just a matter of the human will. And that seems to me to be the answer to your question. For instance, if you had put even some of the time and effort and attention and thought you've put into Buddhism, into researching honestly Christianity, what might you have found in that expenditure of your efforts?

It's my belief that had you done so, you'd be a believer before now. So ultimately, your example of the moral and ethical man of good will didn't commit an offense. He simply FAILED to do his due diligence, and in a world where Bibles are everywhere and available so cheaply or even free from the Giddeons, how can that be excused? So my best answer to your question is that, just as Christ decreed, "No man cometh unto the Father (or thus, to Heaven) except by me" is both just and warranted. If God sent a part of his own self down to earth to teach us as a kindred spirit, fully human as well as fully Divine, and yet, we STILL won't bother to investigate it, how could it be any other way but that the "good but unbelieving man" not be turned away from Heaven? And where else is there for him to go? Heaven was prepared for the righteous, who took the time and care and effort, to learn and commit themselves to God and Christ and the Holy Spirit, and who DID make that commitment, even if some of us are weak in upholding that commitment at times.

So yes, I think and believe that such a person as you describe really IS headed for Hell, simply because he has neglected to do what is well known to be necessary for Redemption. And real Redemption is NOT that difficult to do or understand. All it takes, really, is just a determination to know the real truth. That's really all there is to it.

But the real way to learn about Christ is to go and see and at least try to be a part of some good worship services. Again, though, not all worship services are the same, so one cannot judge all by a few. Try a variety, and you'll almost asssuredly find one or more that "connects" with you more than the others. I think this little factoid may well be the reason God allowed Christianity to fracture itself as it has? So more folks could find a manner of worship that they just "connect' with???? Just a thought.

But there as SO many ways one CAN come to understand and know God if he simply really WANTS to, that .... ultimately, and this may strike you as harsh, but really, it's only fair, ultimately, there's really no reason nor excuse for anyone NOT finding God, unless it be that he never really wanted to or tried. THIS is the great "sin" that he'd find himself denied entry into heaven.

I would really like to reach you, but I can't do that. Many Christians talk of "saving" other souls, but it's my personal belief that nobody "saves" anyone else. Yes, they may play a part in leading them to belief, but ultimately, it's each one of our individual responsibilities and obligations to at least investigate God and Christianity, lest we have to pass Heaven by, and proceed to a terrible place - a place far from God, and inaccessible to even Him. This is why I care for you. God never intended for you to be lost. He did everything He could to teach us the way to go, but we've been so willful, that He finally sent his only Son to suffer and die on the cross as an atonement for OUR sins. You must accept the savior.

You're in my prayers Steve, seriously. I wish you all the best, and if you need help, I or anyone here would be proud to help you in any way we can, or at least try to. All you need to do is simply ask us. And there are much more knowledgeable folks here than me. There's much to learn, and yes, some of it gets "complicated" in that some of it is easily misunderstood, but it's also just as easily straightened out with good instruction and good companionship and discussion. It's really not all that hard. I should know, because for years I tried to find it much as you've tried to find it. It never worked, and I suspect it won't for you, either, unless and until you really WANT to know the answers, and lay your assumptions aside, and let the Truth come to you naturally - almost like the process of osmosis. I know you'll doubt that, but ..... just remember where you heard it. It's a lot funnier when you realize the truth in it! Really!

You have much to look forward to Steve. I truly wish you well, my friend.

[Preacher Jim]

Blackwater you write another like this and it will be your last.
You could have said this in 14 lines

[UKShootist]

Blackwater, thank you for your usual well thought out and kind reply (at risk of upsetting Preacher Jim by encouraging you :mrgreen: ) It's too much for me to answer at similar length, but I would like to address one point you make, at least in this post.


So we know evil has existed on a very serious level for almost all of our history. THIS is what separates man from all other creatures upon the earth. It's simple and elemental, and really, it's undeniable as well, if one truly thinks critically and with precision.

It has been my delight for many years to take an interest in chimpanzees, mainly those kept in zoos that arrange for them to lead as natural a life as is possible. Many studies have been made of chimp societies and there can be no doubt that they are so much closer to humans that some might think. Firstly, I should say that I am not speaking about those sad reflections of animals that are still to be seen in some zoos, psychotic, mentally damaged wrecks.

Observation has found that chimp troops are incredibly complex socially. While lead by an alpha male, who gets boss's rights on pretty much everything by virtue of his superior size and strength, he can do this only with the consent of the females of the group who will band together to oust him if they feel the need. Nearly all human life can be seen reflected in chimp troops, theft, bullying, violence, kindness, love even, and even, yes, adultery. Evidence has been noted of chimps forming relationships where they will sneak separately away from the sight of the boss and the others to copulate, a privilege generally reserved for the boss or a couple of his lieutenants. Politics plays a very important part, as animals within the troop will form alliances to support each other. All of these things have been observed, noted, cross referenced and found to be the case across chimp troops in zoos and in the wild.

The troops treat 'baby' chimps with love and great tolerance. The young ones have a white tuft of fur on their rear ends, and while they have this, for a few years, they are doted upon by the entire troop. They can literally steal the food from the alpha male's mouth without fear of reprisal.

A chimp troop is a volatile environment indeed. At one such zoo establishment, a famous rescue centre in Dorset, England, the alpha male of one troop was ousted in a mad few minutes of serious violence which resulted in the death of the alpha the next day. Interestingly, it was very clear that once the fury had subsided, all the chimps were subdued, almost in a state of shock, worried and concerned over the welfare of the boss. It was clear that the event and the violence bothered them greatly.

Within their standards it is clear that they know right from wrong, and in many ways their standards are pretty good, at least for their needs.

With such a complex and intelligent animal, who knows what they sit and wonder about. Seeing some of them sitting alone and pensive on top of telegraph type poles thirty or more feet above the ground as they watch the sunrise, it doesn't take much to think they just might be wondering about life, the universe and everything.

Perhaps not quite what you were expecting in a theological forum! I'll try some of your other points later. Regards to you again, and a thank you to all those who post here with good will.

[Bzcraig]

Or a series of body blows, depending on the hardness of your head.

Ain't that the truth!!

[Blackwater]

Blackwater you write another like this and it will be your last.
You could have said this in 14 lines

Sorry. I thought the qualitative nature of my post necessitated precision that simply isn't to be had in a quick, short answer. It matters when someone asks a genuine question relating to understanding Christianity, so I thought I was doing the best I knew how to do. I value this place, and don't want to be banned. I just don't know how, honestly, to say things very simply. Today, many people are being fed "milk" in short, pat statements, in the media and elsewhere, and thus, wind up with little real knowledge, and mostly just impressions. So please forgive my seeming wordiness, but I thought the question deserved a complete answer. I'll try to do better, but some things just don't lend themselves to short, pat answers, and most especially when the answer isn't a pleasant thing for the receiver to contemplate. I'd hate to be banned simply for lack of ability to express myself in short, quick statements, so I'll try to confine myself to a bit more curt replies. When someone inquires about Christ and expresses an interest, legitimately, in Christianity, short, pat answers have just never proven effective in my experience, so I hope you have the good grace to at least understand. Thanks.

[Blackwater]

Blackwater, thank you for your usual well thought out and kind reply (at risk of upsetting Preacher Jim by encouraging you :mrgreen: ) It's too much for me to answer at similar length, but I would like to address one point you make, at least in this post.


It has been my delight for many years to take an interest in chimpanzees, mainly those kept in zoos that arrange for them to lead as natural a life as is possible. Many studies have been made of chimp societies and there can be no doubt that they are so much closer to humans that some might think. Firstly, I should say that I am not speaking about those sad reflections of animals that are still to be seen in some zoos, psychotic, mentally damaged wrecks.

Observation has found that chimp troops are incredibly complex socially. While lead by an alpha male, who gets boss's rights on pretty much everything by virtue of his superior size and strength, he can do this only with the consent of the females of the group who will band together to oust him if they feel the need. Nearly all human life can be seen reflected in chimp troops, theft, bullying, violence, kindness, love even, and even, yes, adultery. Evidence has been noted of chimps forming relationships where they will sneak separately away from the sight of the boss and the others to copulate, a privilege generally reserved for the boss or a couple of his lieutenants. Politics plays a very important part, as animals within the troop will form alliances to support each other. All of these things have been observed, noted, cross referenced and found to be the case across chimp troops in zoos and in the wild.

The troops treat 'baby' chimps with love and great tolerance. The young ones have a white tuft of fur on their rear ends, and while they have this, for a few years, they are doted upon by the entire troop. They can literally steal the food from the alpha male's mouth without fear of reprisal.

A chimp troop is a volatile environment indeed. At one such zoo establishment, a famous rescue centre in Dorset, England, the alpha male of one troop was ousted in a mad few minutes of serious violence which resulted in the death of the alpha the next day. Interestingly, it was very clear that once the fury had subsided, all the chimps were subdued, almost in a state of shock, worried and concerned over the welfare of the boss. It was clear that the event and the violence bothered them greatly.

Within their standards it is clear that they know right from wrong, and in many ways their standards are pretty good, at least for their needs.

With such a complex and intelligent animal, who knows what they sit and wonder about. Seeing some of them sitting alone and pensive on top of telegraph type poles thirty or more feet above the ground as they watch the sunrise, it doesn't take much to think they just might be wondering about life, the universe and everything.

Perhaps not quite what you were expecting in a theological forum! I'll try some of your other points later. Regards to you again, and a thank you to all those who post here with good will.

Animals can indeed appear to "think," but simple evaluation of their brains reveals that anything they do that might be claled "thinking" would have to be pretty limited and almost surely very shallow, at best. And we have to be very careful what we read into our observations. For this reason, I've never trusted the anthropomorphic evaluations you allude to. It's an article of faith to believe such evaluations, as much or really much moreso than to believe every word in the Bible. This is the telling, I think, distinquishing trait of those who accept such views, and yet, deny Christ. They think long and hard about chimps, but really, are averse to seriously considering Christ. Christ said, "Seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened." However, he never said we'd find what we seek instantly, or the doorway to understanding would occur overnight. Therefore, I think we have to look further into His words, and in this case, I think "Study to show thyself approved" completes the thought at issue here. If someone simply refuses to study God's word, and seriously consider it, has not God done His due diligence to man? And has not man dropped the ball on his end?

I am not Christ and I will not be the judge you need to be concerned with. Christ will do that. But I've thought long and hard about this issue for a long time, and this is what I've come up with. But I'm not the last word in this, and you and everyone else, of course, are completely free to see it another way. What we ALL have to watch for is fooling ourselves by "finding" what we WANT, instead of what Christ left for us to understand. It's awfully easy to twist God's words around so they fit what we WANT to believe. And I suspect we all fall into that at times and to varying degrees. But you asked a legitimate and honest question, and I just thought it merited a legitimate and honest answer. I wish I knew more than I do, but this is what I have to offer you in the way of an explanation and answer now. It's come slowly through the years, and has been considered quite seriously for quite some time. But definitive? Take NO man's answer as definitive. Believe what you wish, but be SURE to seek the Truth. That's the only way anyone ever really finds it. Mental "games" may be fun, but staking our immortal souls on them is .... well, it's not a serious pursuit of real Truth, and that can't be a good thing when it comes to truly serious matters, can it?

[Thundarstick]

Heb 11:1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

It really just comes down to faith! Not a blind faith, but a living faith, a working faith! Some call this a relationship with God.

UKShootist, to your original question, can one be saved after death? Jesus taught this in a parable while he was here. It's a story of bride grooms invited to a wedding. Mathew 25:1-10 if you care to read it. Basically, once the door is shut, your out. Another story from Jesus about a prepared wedding this is the end of it.

Mat 22:11-14
“But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless.“Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ “For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

I have faith that these things will Come to pass just as Jesus stated, by faith! BTW, he never promises to save the good people, because we judge good by our standards and not God's standards.
Rom 3:10-12
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

[Good Cheer]

Trying to wrap that little brain around your creator?
He told us it doesn't work 'cause we aren't god, no matter the latest poop put out by the old age / new age crowd.
But the exercise won't be fruitless 'cause experience will prove Him correct.
And isn't that part of why He decided to let us come here?

[Preacher Jim]

Jesus said, I am the truth, the way and the life, No man comes to God except through me.
also Read John 3: 15-19 man is under Judgment and Jesus is the only hope to avoid that judgment

[wv109323]

In my study God seeks obedience from his servants. Obedience is better than sacrifice and the ultimate worship is being obedient. You get to obedience by first hearing the Word, hearing builds faith. At some point faith turns into true belief. With belief we accept and we will be obedient.
A lot of good people somewhat believe in God but are not obedient to his Word in accepting Him as a Savior. God has to draw the line somewhere for those that go to heaven and those that go to hell. That line is at the point of acceptance.
We could not have a point of reference knowing that we were 85% good or 73% good or is 75% good the same in the 16th century as the 21st century.
I question why a good person does not accept Christ,since the change in lifestyle would be little from a good person to a Christian. My take on things is that they do not want to be obedient.
My question is "When would the devil tell you to be obedient?" since the Bible describes him as a roaring lion seeking to devour whom he may.

[Char-Gar]

A significant issue in understanding all of this, is we try and work backward from our theology about Jesus to Jesus. In short: Jesus must say what our theology tells us he must say. When we run across something about Jesus, that is inconstant with our theology about Jesus, we are stumped.

How about "Jesus said that." without the need to enforce a meaning on his acts and words to get him into compliance with our theology.

I accept that a Christians first duty is obedience, but obedience to what, to whose theology, to whose understanding. Every interpretation, every new understanding brings with it a new understanding of obedience as well.

"Hear oh Israel, the Lord your God is one and you shall have no other gods before him. You shall love Him with all of your heart, mind, soul and body. The second is like it. You shall love your neighbor as yourself. All the law and prophets hang on these two commandments"...Rabbi Joshua Ben Josef

[Hogtamer]

"Hear...." the Shema. The Rabbi often taught from His own book!

[Good Cheer]

UKShootist....Your question has bothered many people and not just you. The traditional fundamentalist answer is well that is just too bad, off to hell you go. Other folks try and find an answer with more grace that law.

There are many universalists who say, everybody is going to heaven and that is that. God is to graceful to hold anybody eternally accountable.

Then, there are the folks who tend to see it more like you. Once a fellow has the opportunity to say yes to Jesus, seeing all of His full glory, nobody is going to say no. This is not pure universalism, as it preserves human choice, albeit after death.

There is one piece of the Apostle's Creed that says Jesus descended into hell (i.e. the place of the dead) for three days. Some folks understand that He preached to the dead folks. Here is a link to a pretty good article on that subject. It is a 2,000 article from Christianity Today a conservative publication.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/february7/31.74.html

Me? I don't spend to much time trying to figure all of this out, for it isn't my business. It is God's business and we know him through Jesus to be loving and graceful. We can count on God to do the right thing, in these matters that seem so murky to humans. Whatever God does will be far and away better than any of my thinking on this riddle.

And if a day is as a thousand years then when you get to the three thousand year mark...
Is it game over? Not saying it is, just thinking out loud. Pondering the situation.

[Char-Gar]

And if a day is as a thousand years then when you get to the three thousand year mark...
Is it game over? Not saying it is, just thinking out loud. Pondering the situation.

It will be over, when God says it is over. Jesus said that not even he knows which day that is. Every generation of the church has lived with that uncertainty so best not plan for the day. Best to be paid up, prayed up and keep your spiritual bags back and siting by your front door, for you will never know when the knock will come.

[Good Cheer]

It will be over, when God says it is over. Jesus said that not even he knows which day that is. Every generation of the church has lived with that uncertainty so best not plan for the day. Best to be paid up, prayed up and keep your spiritual bags back and siting by your front door, for you will never know when the knock will come.


There is no "date setting" involved in reflecting upon His repetitious references in scripture to three days.
And, I think there is a teaching there for one who studies and wishes to understand.

[Markopolo]

There are many events that lead up to the last days. The answers are found within the living word of God. We will know by the change of the seasons. The more you study, the more the answers appear and the more you learn to recognize His will. To most, it will come as a thief in the night, and many will be out buying lamp oil and will miss the wedding, because they will fail to see the signs. When they return with their oil, the door will be closed. So watch the sky, always keep your lamp filled. All the answers live in the personal relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ, and the study of His living word. My lamp is full, and near the door.

[Wayne Smith]

Already in the door, rather. Romans 8:29 is in the past tense. It's already done.