Meplat vs RN vs HP

[sawinredneck]

Ok, going to stick with two calibers to try and keep it somewhat simple.
First .308/30Cal
I have a Lee 311-180-R, I bought this for my AR-10 thinking it would feed better than a flat point. My line of thought, it'll feed and with PC pushing around 2000fps (enough to cycle the action at a minimum) it should be more than enough to drop any deer, or two legged predators I run into. Am I going to not be able to penetrate a deer because of the round nose?
Next, 38/357.
I have the Lee 356-125-2R that I now use in 38/.357 and 9mm for plinking. I don't think I'd feel comfortable using these to hunt or for self defense for multiple reasons in the 38/357, maybe in the 9mm, but not my first choice. So I'm toying with another mold for the 38/357 in the 150ish range. Is it worth it to get a multiple pin mold, FN and HP, one for hunting, the HP for SD, or just get a FP for both? Would it make enough difference to matter?
Sorry, I know and understand j-words very well, been researching for over 30yrs, jacketed soft points, meh, so so. But these cast bullets, this is quite the learning curve!

[Landy88]

But these cast bullets, this is quite the learning curve!

Too true, for home tailored cast.

The hard commercial cast that I use(d) for years were even simpler than jacketed, for terminal performance meplat was king and accuracy was good and leading bad luck at the gamble of fit. They are too hard to expand as a solid and too brittle to make good hollow points; but if heavy and with a big meplat for caliber and they fit, they can work a treat.

But the gurus here make boolits that expand or not as wanted, that work like JHPs are advertised to, and even ones of two alloys or heat treatments that work (And this is no faint praise!) like Partitions.

Ah, but I'm just learning how to cast good boolits instead of just sprue puddles.

[Wayne Smith]

Think about terrminal effect. Placed right a 148gr wc will do as much damage as a 158gr HP. Placed wrong and neither are effective. I think it's a non-issue compared to your ability to shoot them straight.

[GhostHawk]

I would say when it comes to cast bullets it is a balancing act.

Slower speeds go with softer alloys. If you are willing to accept those slower speeds you can shoot range lead with 1% tin added at 1600 fps. If your bullet is big enough chances are it will not lead much.

If you have to have 2200-2400 fps you are going to need a better alloy. More antimony, more tin.

Personally I would not be as concerned about the nose shape. For example, take a 2 lb hammer. Punch it through drywall. Nose shape can have an effect. But it is still going to go through, first couple layers at least. It is a 2 lb hammer.

Large flat nose will punch a bigger hole. I would say a round nose will punch a smaller hole but may go further than the large flat.

But shape is only one of many variables. And it is all a balancing act.

Shoot some water jugs or wet newspaper, see what yours does. Then compare it with the same gun, same load with something else. Then decide if it will work for you. Then live with the consequences.

I would say in the big scheme of things, bullet placement means a lot more than shape. And a bullet you cast yourself means a LOT more rounds for the money, so you can practice a lot more. Different ranges, different angles. The better you know your rifle, your load, the more likely you are to put that bullet where it will do the most good.

Good hunting!

[jmort]

Large meplat bullets penetrate similarly to round-nose, except, the flat point will tend to shoot straighter through the target. Hollowpoints, if they are traveling fast enough to expand, will have very little conmparative penetration. The Magic Meplat will work well on any game and on Goblins. I want two holes.

[jdfoxinc]

For legal reasons, only use commercial factory self defense loads. Hunting with cast HP is acceptable.

[sundog]

For legal reasons, only use commercial factory self defense loads. Hunting with cast HP is acceptable.

Would you care to explain, in detail, what those legal reason might be?

[jmort]

^^^ it would have to be theory and guess-work as no one in the history of the United States has ever been convicted of a crime for using ammunition they loaded for self-defense. Sad that this thread is polluted with this nonsense. A good shoot is a good shoot especially with a LBT style bullet and two holes.

[Shooter6br]

Never to my knowledge using handloads for SD has not been a legal problem,I have watched a SD case were a lawyer tried to say the defendant used factory HP's because they are most" deadly". The judge throw it out. I use factory SD for carry gun just in case. The "shooter" applied CPR to the man.He could of just drove away(was a park area) . Colorado state. Also lawyer stated the "shooter" used a 10mm 1911 to kill more effectively.65 yr old man got 10 years in JAIL.He was attacked by the town crazy with a dog and a big club .

[Larry Gibson]

sawinredneck

I do prefer softer cast HP'd bullets for hunting. I have found over the years they kill quicker on average than do FP and RN cast bullets. Of course the size and shape of the HP must be balanced with the alloy to give expansion performance in the expected impact velocity range. It's not that difficult to figure out.

While I have several HP molds I prefer to use the Forster 1/8" HP tool to HP FP and RN bullets. I use it up through .375 caliber in rifle bullets pushed at 1800 to 2200+ fps. I also use it in 30 to 41 caliber handgun bullets for velocities up through 1400+ fps. I prefer GC'd cast bullets in both as softer alloys can be used to maintain accuracy to a higher fps.

Here's a 314299 in a 7.62x54R and a RCBS 35-200-FN in a 35 Rem HP'd after loading;

198059198060

I recommend the Lyman 358156 for 38/357 use. I cast it soft (30-1, 20-1 or 16-1) and HP it with the Forster HP tool. It's easy to use and can be used on any loaded cast bullets and SP Jacketed bullets too. I also use it on larger rifle and handgun cast bullets but open the HP slightly with a counter sink drill. Here's a 45 ACP being HP'd;

198061198062198063

Larry Gibson

[sawinredneck]

Interesting, thanks all. I may make a hollow point bit out of a center drill and play around with some designs to see how they perform.
I went RN in the AR just for feeding, I just didn't want to fight or mess with trying to get it to feed, I had enough fun figuring out my OAL.
The 38/357, I'd honestly forgotten about the HP drill! I know if I get my son a .357 he's going to want to be able to hunt with it. Right now I've just got an LCR, I think I'll get him something with a 5-6" barrel and I don't hold much faith in the 124 RN for handgun hunting. That's where the multiple pin mold idea came in, different styles of bullets from the same mold. But the hollow pointer makes that a moot point in retrospect! Also saves my wallet a hit.
As for SD, I DO carry factory ammo for that, but if the need arises it's be nice to be able to make my own that I trust.

[David2011]

I've hollow pointed some .45 250 gr FPs on the lathe with a center drill. It wasn't too hard to keep them within 1.5 grains. I used a spacer to regulate the boolit depth in the jaws and a dial indicator to manage the depth of drilling.

[runfiverun]

hollow points suck.
stick with a flat nose.
unless your shooting gophers.

[sawinredneck]

hollow points suck.
stick with a flat nose.
unless your shooting gophers.
But I need it to feed in an AR-10!

[dragon813gt]

^^^ it would have to be theory and guess-work as no one in the history of the United States has ever been convicted of a crime for using ammunition they loaded for self-defense. Sad that this thread is polluted with this nonsense.

Massad Ayoob is the name most closely associated w/ this line of thinking. I don't tend to believe it at all. But I don't carry handloads in my SD guns. Not because of legal reasons. It's because the factory offerings work and I don't need to perform any load development. I have equivalents but still carry the factory fodder.

I don't care for HP cast bullets. Have a lot of HP molds but the fad wore off almost instantly. Give me a large meplat over anything else. Round nose, forget it for anything more than plinking. I just purchased my first RN mold and it was solely because it's a lightweight bullet to save on lead for my 10mm.

[runfiverun]

this feeds in an ar-10 or an M-14 it feeds in my AR-30 and bolt guns just fine.
http://accuratemolds.com/img/bullets/detail/31-165A-D.png

[sawinredneck]

R5R, how deep do you have to seat that?

[Larry Gibson]

sawinredneck

Back in the day everyone was happy with single cavity moulds so casting with a HP mould didn't "suck". Then came the multi-cavity moulds, progressive loading machines and high capacity guns to "blast" away with. Casting a correct alloyed bullet in a HP mould, even multi cavity moulds with pins, is not any more difficult than casting with any other mould. You just have to learn how to do it is all and it ain't rocket science. Now days it seems if you can't cast a bajillion bullets a minute with a multi-cavity mould with scrap alloy it "sucks".......

The nice thing about the Forster HP tool is you don't have to have a HP mould. The bullet design runfiverun shows would be an excellent bullet to HP with the Forster after loading. Most any RN or FP'd cast bullet is easily HP'd with the Forster. With a proper alloy the 1/8" HP only has to be 3/16" deep for excellent expansion on game. Again, it's not rocket science nor costly to make the proper alloy either to use with those few bullets actually used for hunting. All the target/practice/blasting bullets can still be cast in the multi-cavity mould of what ever alloy you want to concoct and use.

Many of us prefer to use softer alloyed cast bullets that are HP'd. It does indeed provide a very useful option. Consider WFN bullets that are HP'd such as the Lyman "Devastator" 429640HP. If it doesn't expand you still have all the effectiveness of the WFN. If it does expand you will have increased terminal performance. Same for the RCBS 35-200-FN that I HP; if it expands terminal performance is enhanced, if it doesn't then it's just as effective as the meplat will allow. I have been HPing cast bullets with the Forster tool and using HP moulds for 40+ years. . They aren't for most shooting I do but for hunting and PD I'll take a properly alloy HP'd cast bullet (with a proper HP) over a solid any time.....simply be cause the terminal effect is better.

Considering you already have the Lee mould and have loads upwards of 2000 fps you might try HPing the Lee 180 RN you have with a Forster 1/8" tool with a 3/16" deep HP and see how it feeds in your AR. Your bullet, in it's RN form will penetrate completely through a deer from just about any angle. If cast of a correct alloy and HP'd with the Forster 1/8" tool it will also give complete penetration from about any angle except a Texas heart shot (I don't take those shots any more). The difference between the two will be the much better terminal performance the expanding bullet will give you. The HP'd cast bullet, cast of a correct alloy and HP'd correctly, will not "blow up on the shoulder of any deer or pig for that matter. It will penetrate a kill very well.

Larry Gibson

[sawinredneck]

Larry Gibson, would you be kind enough to measure the shank of your hp bit for me? I'm using the Lyman case trimmer and I know it takes a .170" shank pilot. Just seeing if I'll need another case trimmer is all.

[Larry Gibson]

Forster pilot shanks are .184

Larry Gibson

[sawinredneck]

Forster pilot shanks are .184

Larry Gibson
Thank you very much sure, I can make that work!

[runfiverun]

you got that whole front drive band to use.
that mimics the area of your throat/leade in front of the case mouth.
you seat so that angle that slopes down to the nose stops short of hitting steel.

I don't remember my average oal right now but it feeds from the magazine and chambers in all of my 308 rifles without a hitch.

[williamwaco]

This is a great thread.
It perfectly illustrates my occasionally expressed belief that any answer to any question about loading home grown ammo should begin with.

"It depends."

You have several responses here from several of the most experienced and (by me) respected members of the board. Not surprisingly expressing diametrically opposite opinions. And both opinions are correct. "it depends" on their personal experiences.

So! What do you do? Try both and see which you prefer.

[tdoyka]

This is a great thread.
It perfectly illustrates my occasionally expressed belief that any answer to any question about loading home grown ammo should begin with.

"It depends."

You have several responses here from several of the most experienced and (by me) respected members of the board.

i enjoy it to!!!


i use a hp in my 44mag and its a 250gr mihek hp. i use 7.0gr of unique in 44sp and it is a 40:1 boolit. i'm attempting to use a 9.0gr of unique(44mag) in a 280gr wfn.

i like to use fn too. i use fn for deer/black bear. i use them for 30-30, 30-40 krag, 444 marlin, 45-70 and the 500 linebaugh.

for shooting a 308 i'd use a 165gr ranch dog
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=30_348&products_id=307

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/images/N.O.E._Bullet_Moulds_311-165-RF_(GC)_Sketch.Jpg

[sawinredneck]

you got that whole front drive band to use.
that mimics the area of your throat/leade in front of the case mouth.
you seat so that angle that slopes down to the nose stops short of hitting steel.

I don't remember my average oal right now but it feeds from the magazine and chambers in all of my 308 rifles without a hitch.

I ask because I'm considering this mold, https://www.midwayusa.com/product/574963/lee-2-cavity-bullet-mold-c309-170-f-30-caliber-309-diameter-170-grain-flat-nose-gas-check it's in my budget and close to what you showed above. The same mold in RN I'm having to seat rather deep because it won't chamber due to the profile. I'm considering the NOE nose sizer but really not sure I need it with the reduced loads I'm using.
And yes, this has been a great thread, thank you all very much for the help and insight, I've learned a lot and hope to learn more.