Spire points

[augois]

I think I read somewhere that it is a common truth that Spire point cast bullets "don't work". Is this true and if so, why? Just curious.

[Bret4207]

As with most other "truths" with cast, it's a bit more complex than just that. It appears to be a function of short bearing length and inbalance. The spitzer designs tend to have very short bearing length which allows the boolit to become "cocked" in the case or throat, either during loading or in the chamber. Since the alloy is relatively soft, the boolit can't straighten itself out in the barrel. On exit from the muzzle the now wildly unbalanced boolit has little chance of grouping well. Should there be anny voids in that long, unsupported nose that just compunds the problem.

Thats the general theory anyway. Given a well cast boolit started straight into the case with as close to zero runout, in a chamber with a throat that fits the boolit, in a barrel that is cast friendly to start with.... success may be much easier. I have a personal theory that hollow pointing may help those designs. The only way to know is to put the time into the experiment.

[Ben]

Here is Aladin's 210 .30 cal. spire sitting next to a 31141 for comparison purposes :

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/2-2.jpg

Here is a group that I fired with my M - 1 Garand at 50 yards - - 5 shots with the 210 spire pt. I don't think it is safe to say that spire points won't shoot. I also have a Lyman 311413 that shoots very well.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/1-7.jpg

[docone31]

Dang dude. That is a nice little group with a spire point!
It definately shows me how far I have to go.
I tried the Lee 155gn kinda spire. Sized it a little too small. We are talking 10ft groups here.
I had two spotters helping me yesterday It was amazing! I aimed at my pie plate, and hit the top of the berm! I aimed at my pie plate and hit the far right side of the backdrop. I aimed at the ground in front of the target, it hit the backdrop 10ft above the target.
I think it is more sizing than design. It is a .303 British, and I sized it to .311. I should have done as cast. The collet dies did not tighten the neck on the casting. I had a feeling about them.
If I did not have this forum, and all the experienced folks on it, I would have tossed the entire project.
Spire points do work, as you show.

[1Shirt]

Nice group Ben. I have had good luck with spire pts, and in particular with 311413 in HP. I do however think that peak accuracy will only come with seperation by weight to within a tenth of a grain, and that carefull seating to avoid any cant is essential. A good belling of the mouth to allow the gas check to be fully within the neck is a plus, as is (IMNTBH) opinion the factory crimp die use essential with that much belling.
1Shirt!

[MtGun44]

My first attempt with the 311413 in a Swiss K31 did fairly well. Nothing
incredible, but not bad as a starting point, either.

Bill

[crowbeaner]

That .303 might like a .314 boolit better than a .309. I size my 30/06 boolits .309.

[chuebner]

My first attempt with the 311413 in a Swiss K31 did fairly well. Nothing
incredible, but not bad as a starting point, either.

Bill

I've read somewhere that the spire points like a slow velocity 1200-1400 FPS range. And my k31's produce the same results as yours with the 311413 and 311329 sized to .311 with 8-10 gr. Red Dot or 10-12 gr. Unique.

Charlie

[docone31]

I had originally sized my .303 to .311. I have paper patched a bunch to .3135.
At the range, I couldn't hit my butt with both hands behind my back with people helping. It was like shooting a bent barrel, except it was up, down, over. With jacketeds, dead on.
Time to go thicker.

[MtGun44]

You should slug the .303. These have been reported with wildly oversized
bores, and they can still shoot well with jacketed as only moderate engraving
and lots of gasses leaking will still shoot at least moderatley well and may shoot
extremely well.

I would not be surprised it you didn't need to go to .315 or .316 or even more to
get it to tighten up. Wartime production, ya know. :roll:

Bill

[docone31]

yeah, I agree.
I did slug the barrel. I got .312. I believe, in all sincerity, my sizing to .311 was the major culprit. I did find a fired bullet. No rifleing imprint, and no gas check. I had gas checks on all of them.
This one has a factory match barrel. It is not like the original Smelly barrels. It has the middle band machined to fit, and the muzzle is turned down to fit the nose cap. All the furniture was opened up for the barrel.
I just think I had a brain fart day the day I sized and loaded the ammo. I was so excited at the results of the molding.
I betcha, .3135 paper patched is gonna be a real winner.
For King and Country.
I do love that pain in the butt rifle. The feel, looks, and the fit. Even the trigger is modified. The nose cap even had the bayonette posts removed and the serial number is on the nose cap.
My wife even loves to shoot it. With jacketed, it prints pretty tight. At 100yds I can get an easy 1" group with corrosive Berdan primed cases. She likes 174 gn better than 147gn. She likes em heavy. The poorly sized 185gn shot MUCH better than the poorly sized 150gn.
She even has a factory wood cheekpiece! I am a lefty so I turned it around. It all lined up.

[MtGun44]

Wow, neat! You must be in one of the Commonwealth countries to find a
match Smelly - I'd imagine they are rare as hen's teeth in the States. I sure
never saw one - not that I am certain that I would know what I was looking
at.

It does seem strange to get no rifling marks with only .001" undersized.
Does yours have odd number of grooves - making measuring tricky?

If the bore is only .312, you're probalby going to be happy with the results
of .3135, but I have shot .311 cast thru .308 (slugged) barrels with great
results. I plan on working down in .001" increments to see what happens.

Press on.

Bill

[docone31]

Mine is a five land. I goofed on the measurement.
I am thinking paper patching is the way to go.
I am planning on trying .311 in my o3-A3 with paper, and my .308 custom heavy barrel.
I do have the original scope mount for it, but I put in on my wife's Ishy.
She likes that rifle.