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View Full Version : Thoroughly Testing >>> HP's <<< ...by 'Loads of Bacon'



OS OK
05-29-2017, 10:27 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Biwb7vAYZfI&list=PLvRSDQ2n-bR04coYo1m2jR2KOgzC3oiVJ

I have an internet/You Tube friend that is testing all the aspects of Powder Coated Cast Pb HP's and using the .38, .357 & .44 Magnum as the platforms.
His work is exemplary and he tests them in gel blocks for penetration and expansion.
Unlike many of us who use scrounged Pb for our blending, he has ordered pure metals and mixing components as in Sn to keep the work as accurate as possible. Too, he uses gel blocks without layers of denim or simulated meat and bones...I would imagine that aspect may come later, for now he is trying to keep all the variables to a minimum for this basic study of the cast HP.
He gives all the details of his work, listing exact components of Pb and powder and I think anyone who is trying to develop HP loads would benefit from his work...his video work is awesome.

give him a look...c h a r l i e

KVO
05-29-2017, 12:42 PM
Great link, just watched his videos and this is EXACTLY the kind of testing I've wanted to pursue. OS OK, I read up on some of your previous work with great respect and appreciation for sharing your data. I've been eyeballing some Clear Ballistics gel for awhile now, just too many irons in the fire at the moment. I have several HP molds and some 20-1 on hand, but not the time to test! I wonder if he'd be interested in samples?

KVO
05-29-2017, 12:44 PM
Also saves some legwork for all of us with the MiHec 432-259 #503 clone and which pins to start with, the small HP pins are looking suspect, save for top end loads...

OS OK
05-29-2017, 01:08 PM
No, I don't imagine he would be open to testing samples as you can see he may take a year to complete his tests alone.
I too would love to have a couple blocks of gel but...there's a lot of work to do on the gel blocks alone to prepare for each limited test.
You can see what goes on in the background in preparation here...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjLuBMCC9co ...Elvis Ammo has gone this route also. This video gives you a new appreciation for the efforts of those who use the gel blocks.
The Keith style SWC HP is a rather tough customer to work with especially with those small cavities, they have a small window of proper function before you end up just fragging them from over speed...that's the small cavity problem and part of the reason I went down several rabbit holes trying to figure them out...but, it was interesting and I learned much...still learning.
For the newbie wanting to just cast the HP without much effort...I think I'd pick one with a gorgantious(sp?) hole up front, simplifying things a lot to begin with.
I think the small cavity is for the higher speed carbines or magnum pressure hand guns and a bit harder Pb and...still the emphasis I think...is mainly on penetration more so than imparting so much shock that a wide mushroom would produce. In hunting, two bleed holes is superior to one!

I think the penta HP design is great...I don't have one to use but you can see how they open up looking like mushrooms with propeller edges on them...little flowers, awesome performance from the pentas.

Spector
05-29-2017, 01:23 PM
I think I am going to have Erik do my Accurate 45 ACP powder coat design (252-Z if my memory is correct) in a penta hollow point for my XDS. I have pushed it up over 900 fps, but don't want to feed it a steady diet of those out of the 3.3'' inch barrel. The recoil would sometimes disconnect my Crimson Trace green laser from the trigger guard. I have since switched to a Veridian R5 green laser and want to keep velocities somewhere closer to 800 to 825 fps.

I estimate the boolit will come out weighing around 220 grains when Erik is done with it. I want to pre-plug the hollow points with very soft hot glue as I have done in the past when testing homemade hollow points in new, dry phone books. This medium causes many jacketed HP bullets to fail or at least not be reliable all of the time. Black Talons never open up. Hydra-Shoks open up about 50% of the time. It caused my drilled HP boolit to expand to over one inch. but penetration I fear would not be adequate in an assailant.

So I want to try a pre-plugged penta design and experiment with the flexibility of the hot glue blend so it will open to some degree in any medium. I want it to penetrate drywall and soft barriers and still open up with adequate penetration. And at a much lower cost than the ''whizz-bang'' JHP's I see on dealer shelves........Mike

OS OK
05-29-2017, 01:40 PM
At that speed in the 3.3" barrel those loads sound like +P loads?
Here you are looking to make the Pb blended cast operate within a specific powder load/barrel length range...here's where you'll learn how subtle changes of Sn content without Sb will fit the bill...it ain't easy but it's certainly doable, just takes a little more effort and a lot more testing.
No matter how much work you do there is always one or more variables that will throw a monkey wrench in the mix!
:bigsmyl2: . . . but that's the fun of this craft...right?

Spector
05-29-2017, 01:48 PM
OS OK, I know you had unsatisfactory results when you tried pre-plugging HP's with hot glue and the way I fill the HP's with glue is slow for sure, but it does yield air bubble free pre-plugged HP's. So I will continue in that direction with pentas.

And yes those pentas do look impressive without the need for so much velocity. Thanks for sharing info.

I have lead sheathing and lead water pipe I put into ingots in the mid 80's and tin and lead free solder. Not factory spec-ed metals, but close enough to pure to make credible alloys l think.

My son can get my alloys analyzed for me when, and if, I get things working properly.

Assuming I can get my 70 year old butt off the couch long enough to actually do some testing. LOL

Mike

Spector
05-29-2017, 01:53 PM
Yes indeed. You are right. As fickle as women sometimes, but we keep coming back for more.

Mike

USSR
05-29-2017, 01:58 PM
I have lead sheathing and lead water pipe I put into ingots in the mid 80's and tin and lead free solder. Not factory spec-ed metals, but close enough to pure to make credible alloys l think.

Yep. Coming up with a suitable alloy that allows for expansion at a particular velocity ain't rocket science.

Don

OS OK
05-29-2017, 02:00 PM
I didn't give the hot melt glue a proper chance as a plug...I was too impatient and have been burned so many times using that stuff, I suppose I have a mental block! I don't doubt it'll work just fine. The caulking I used originally shrunk so now I have pure silicone to work with...I think these tips just need to be flexible enough to impart the hydraulic pressure into all the surface area of the cavities, once they open to some point there is even more force applied because of the larger frontal surface. Those tips help hydraulically and prohibit materials like cloth and sheetrock from fouling them...I'm sold on filling the HP's now.

Hey...that 70 year old butt?...I get it! I'm doing an irrigation project right now and it's kicking my 67 year old but up between my shoulder blades...:bigsmyl2:

These days I hobble through the shop looking for tools and parts and all I can do in the loading area is smile, look and walk on by...dang it all!

More and more these I find my butt dragging like an anchor!

KVO
05-29-2017, 02:07 PM
In my limited testing so far, the large cup points seem more predictable. My tests have not been on ballistics gel, animals, Al Queda operatives or anything else other than water filled milk jugs. No commentary necessary that water is a poor simulant for tissue, I'm aware it's hard on boolits/bullets but it IS a starting point.

KVO
05-29-2017, 02:13 PM
196512196513196514

OS OK
05-29-2017, 02:29 PM
Those are some very nice results...yeah, I know the water testing argument and it'll never end.

I can say this though in it's defense...during one of my trips down the rabbit holes, I worked out a method of scoring the inside of the HP cavity making it predisposed to act like the penta (a suggestion that one of our fellow members suggested) and I tested it in a water column. Then I sent the same HP's to Elvis Ammo to be tested from the same pistol and same speed...
"You couldn't tell the difference between his gel test and my water test. These were the 'turbo prop' looking .38 Special loads at 750 FPS...the way they opened wide the petals would tear off if speed up too much, the water opened them just like the gel did. If you notice, the HP's open fully within the first 6"'s of the gel block and the revolutions drop significantly too."
So...I think that they are not that far apart for our red-neck test labs.
The gel was formulated by the FBI to simulate flesh and meat and they have a testing method of the gel to insure that it is the same from batch to batch. A water column is the same from batch to batch too . . . :bigsmyl2:

KVO
05-29-2017, 03:13 PM
Top left: NOE 358-156 (sky blue)clone deep HP out of a 2" mod 19 .357, 5.0gr unique, 125gr Golden Saber 5.8gr Bullseye out of same gun to the left. Middle: .40 S&W NOE 403-200 WFN, 5.0gr Unique w/ green 188gr cup point, 5.2 gr Unique w/ light blue 180 gr HP, to the right 180gr Winchester PDX1. Fired from S&W M&P40 compact. Bottom NOE 277 Keith left cup point, right HP WITH nose blown off, 6" mod 629 w/ 18.0 gr Alliant 2400. Definitive? No. Starting point for gel & 100% known alloy? Yes.

KVO
05-29-2017, 03:22 PM
What I extrapolate from water testing is that if it doesn't open in water, guaranteed it won't open in flesh. Possibly not enough tin, too deep a cavity, and/ or too fast if the nose blows off completely. Eliminate the poor performers with cheap & easy water, try the promising perspectives in gel.

KVO
05-29-2017, 03:24 PM
I dunno if my water is the same as your batch, I hear we have hard water around here. Maybe I need a water softener? :-P