Need help with Range lead and casting

[TonyN]

I have Range Lead and it's at 10 BHN with water dropped as I haven't checked after couple says so may harden couple. Anyways my glock 17 is slugged at .356 so I sized at .357 and smoothed bored within couple rounds. In using Red bullet lube that's for hi velocity rounds and very bad experience. Anyone know how to fix this issue? Iv tries Hi-Tel with horrable experience. Only lead I have is Range lead. I shot these also out of my Sig MPX with leading on the lands but nothing like my glock. Would this work ok in a glock 21 .45 acp?

[Rich/WIS]

Shot up about a 1/2 ton of range lead so far in 45, 9mm, 38/357 and 44. Did not have issues with leading in any of them but the loads were on the light side. In the 9mm had no trouble in a CZ 85 but the only Glock we used had a replacement barrel with regular rifling. Lube was either Alox 50/50 or Xlox 2500. Have read that Glocks do not do well with lead but no personal experience.

[TonyN]

I use lube in my Star sizer. I'm using Carnauba Red 2700+ as my lube. Keep the comments coming.

[Larry Gibson]

If you smelted your RL do you recall what kind if bullets you smelted; cast, jacketed or what combination?

Larry Gibson

[BK7saum]

What are your loads? High velocity? Might not be able to go that fast with range lead.

How are you expanding your brass? You probably need to use an expander at 0.356" and not just bell sized brass. 9mm brass is notoriously bad about sizing down boolits on the soft side and yours fall into that category.

Don't use the Lee factory crimp die. It can and usually does size down boolits inside the case.

[BK7saum]

The range lead should work well with the 45 acp as it is a lot lower pressure cartridge. At least better than the 9mm.

[TonyN]

I use the hornady dies. This lead is from a indoor range lead. Is there any way to harden the lead to like 15 BHN without spending much money?

[TonyN]

Yes these where at max on hogdon site with titegroup . I used 125 grain RN and I use Magma molds.

[GhostHawk]

Well there are a couple of ways you can start. One of the easiest would be to buy some clip on wheel weight ingots here, run them about half and half with your range lead.

And it would probably be a plus if you had some tin you could add. 1 or 2 % helps.
COWW are going to be mostly lead and antimony.

Next option would be to try sizing a size bigger, or even unsized if it is big enough as cast.

Generally speaking when it comes to problems, get the bullet fit right first. Then see where you are. From there you can look at lube, powder choice, load, etc.

I have shot a lot of range lead in my 9mm and like you I intitially had some issues with a couple of guns. Terribad keyholing, shotgun patterns.

For me the easy answer was use a larger mold it says .358 but it cast at .359 to .360.
I loaded them as cast with a moderate load of Red Dot and shazam, no more problems.

Fit first, what ever it takes is what I suggest. Only if you can not get a big enough bullet to chamber would i worry about significantly making your alloy harder.

But I am no rocket scientist either. YMMV.

Last, I have become a true believer in Ben's Liquid lube. Lee alox and originally Johnson's one step floor wax. Now that is off the market I think some are using a different wax with similar results. Or 45/45/10 is yet another in that family that is close.

Then you want to make sure you are flaring the mouth on those cases a bit, so as not to size the boolit down in loading. Be careful with your crimp for the same reason and be very careful if using a factory crimp die.

One step at a time, lots of notes.

[BK7saum]

You could alloy with some magnum shot or linotype, but thas not exactly cheap. How do your boolits test for BHN after a few days. I run a lot of range lead, which is about 10-11 BHN air cooled and about 20 BHN water dropped. Makes a big difference in BHN depending on source.

[BK7saum]

I think the biggest improvement would be to use a 38/357 expander instead of the 9mm expander in the die set. Do you have a 38 or 357 die set? Typically 9mm expanders are 0.352 or 0.353, maybe 0.354 and leave your brass about 0.001 smaller than the expander. Tough 9mm brass will swage down your boolits to the ID or close to the ID of your cases. This will allow blowby and cause major leading. The polygonal rifling of the glock doesn't help. If the boolit doesn't fit the barrel/chamber, it will lead no matter how hard the boolit.

Try seating your boolit in a dummy round, then pull it to check diameter after seating and before crimping.

[tazman]

I use the hornady dies. This lead is from a indoor range lead. Is there any way to harden the lead to like 15 BHN without spending much money?

I use a Lee 4-20 pot and use range scrap. I add in a 1lb ingot of linotype with every refill after emptying the pot. This adds enough tin and antimony to get hardness up near 20 bhn when water dropped since the range scrap already has some to start with.
It takes about 3-5 days to get fully hardened but is shootable after 2 days.
I use this alloy in everything I have with plain based boolits except the full house magnum loads in my 357 mag. I load for 9mm, 38 special, 357 mag, and 45 ACP and used to use it in 40S&W and 45 Colt.
I tumble lube with White Label X-Lox.
I do not own a Glock so cannot say how well this will work with that pistol but I don't have leading or accuracy issues with any of the 10 or so pistols I do have.

[TonyN]

My lead with my lee tester is at 10 BHN water dropped . it's been like 1 or 2 days since if casted these. I have the hornady expander that you put in the powder feeder. I think the die is called powder exspander die and it can bell the case mouth to where it won't crimp at all so I can really crimp it good. Is there any way for sure to shoot this lead or am I put of luck? I used to cast and water drop WW and those where 15 BHN after couple days.

[tazman]

15 BHN should be plenty hard for your usage. I have shot softer in my pistols but I don't have any polygonal rifling. This may cause issues I am unfamiliar with. Sorry. No experience.

[TonyN]

The only lead I have now is Range Lead and it's at 10 BHN.

[Dusty Bannister]

A low antimony alloy will take longer to reach max hardness even if quenched from the mold. Test after 7 days and again after 14 days and see where the hardness lies. Shooting a max cast bullet load is probably not a good plan. Let the bullets harden, then start with the suggested starting load.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121607-Setting-up-for-boolits-in-a-new-9mm

You may find most of your problem will be cleared up if you study the thread and follow the recommendations it contains. Dusty

[TonyN]

I have slugged the glock 17 at .356 and sized at .357 with bad results. I can try sizing at .358 and see how much it takes till it chambers then I'll pull the bullet to see if it will be at .358 still.

[Chihuahua Floyd]

You might want to try slowing down a little bit. It's cast, not jacketed. Are you using gas checks?
What velocity are you trying to hit?
CF

[BK7saum]

I think you need to verify what size your boolits are after seating. 0.357 might work well if they aren't being sized by the case. If you have a 0.358 size die, go ahead. But if you dont, I'd verify diameter on a 0.357 boolit before going further. You solution might lie with an expander of 0.356 or 0.357 diameter instead of a 0.358 boolit. If the expander size/brass toughness is the issue, a 0.358 boolit of soft alloy will get sized by the case just like a 0.357 boolit.

I typically use an expander that is the same size or slightly less than boolit diameter to minimize sizing down of soft boolits by the case. I use a 0.401 expander on my 0.4015 boolits and a 0.411 expander on my 0.411 boolits. Brass springback allows plenty of neck tension for my purposes even when expander is the same size as the boolits.

[Larry Gibson]

TonyN

Being from an indoor or outdoor range is not helping. Do you know whether the bullet alloy recovered was from cast, jacketed or a combination. Knowing that will give us a better idea of its antimony and tin content. Knowing that we can better answer you question of;

"Is there any way to harden the lead to like 15 BHN without spending much money?"

What load are you using; powder type and charge?

Do you have any Lee Liquid Alox, any NRA formula 50/50 lube or any White Label BAC lube?

Larry Gibson

[TonyN]

I have a .356.357.358 dies. I try to put just enough crimp to cycle the round and not crimp the bullet. I'll try .358 and just enough crimp to crimp the case. The dies are hornady roll crimp style.

[Bigslug]

The problem may not be fixable so long as 10 BHN metal is all you have, but since that is the metal you have, you're gonna have to try fixing it with just techniques related to fit. . .and with metal that soft, it'll be a challenge.

Sounds like what you mostly have is brass sizing down the too-soft bullets. My Dad partly solved the problem in his Springfield 1911 by liberating the sizing die from my .38 S&W set, which opens up the case for a .360"+ diameter bullet. From there, you only have to worry about going overboard on the taper crimp. The other part of the solution, sad to say, was going to a rifle-hard alloy. The 9mm is a high pressure round, and Glock bores are spec'd for jacketed to the point that the factory regards lead as plutonium. Guys do shoot lead in them, but usually after a fair bit of technical application.

Rotometals sells their "Superhard" alloy (30% antimony/70% lead) as an economical means of hardening up your too-soft range lead. Since antimony contents of only 3-6% will do the trick for any pistol application, a little will go a long way. Get a few pounds of tin from them in the process and you'll have endless possibilities. Some guidelines for Superhard use here: http://www.lasc.us/SuperHard.htm

[TonyN]

I can bell the case mouth as large as I need so it's not a problem.

[Dusty Bannister]

Perhaps it is just the term used. There is a difference. There is expanding the case mouth to just a little smaller than the cast bullet diameter and there is flaring or belling the case mouth like a funnel. Belling the case will allow a soft bullet to enter the case mouth undamaged, but the body of the case will still make the bullet diameter smaller if you do not use the proper tool to expand the case.

[TonyN]

It's the powder throw die powder exspander die that I use in my hornady dies.

[243winxb]

glock 17 barrels and lead. I see many use an after market barrel for lead. Why?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

First, an alloy needs 2% antimony for water-dropping or heat treating to work properly. I suspect your range scrap has less than 2% antimony.
http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm

Second, adding linotype alloy to your range scrap will be the easiest and cheapest way to 'build up' your range scrap.

Third, (this actually should be first) Pull a boolit with a inertia puller and measure. As others have mentioned, 9mm brass that's sized and expanded with J-word dies creates the common problem of swaging the boolit smaller, which causes barrel lead fouling. The fix is buying/making a larger expander.
Good Luck

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Yes these where at max on hogdon site with titegroup . I used 125 grain RN and I use Magma molds.
What pressure does Hodgdon say this load creates? If your pressure is over 20Kpsi, it could be one of your problems.
A specific alloy will only withstand a specific pressure. The LASC link at the bottom of the page should help you understand. I refer to it often.
http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

here is another good read on 9mm
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121607-Setting-up-for-boolits-in-a-new-9mm

[Scharfschuetze]

glock 17 barrels and lead. I see many use an after market barrel for lead. Why?

Gocks have a very smooth form of rifling optimized for jacketed bullets. I'm not sure of the term that Glock uses for it, but it's akin to pollygonal rifling. Oversize bullets or coated bullets are often recommended to prevent leading in this style of rifling. After market barrels are usually of conventional rifling and are much easier to get good cast bullet performance out of.


I have Range Lead and it's at 10 BHN with water dropped as I haven't checked after couple says so may harden couple.

Regarding the OP's question regarding range lead:

Years ago Larry and I mined an indoor range when we were both assigned to the same unit. It had an indoor range which gave us a bunch of lead. Most of it (probably 90%) was from military issued FMJ 45 ACP and 9mm ball ammo, although there was some .22RF, Double 00 Buck and cast bullets mixed in.

An X-ray examination of the smelted lead showed it to have a content of about 91% lead, 8% antimony and < 1% tin. In order to use the hundreds of pounds of Pb that we mined out of the range, I make an alloy of 50% range lead, 40% pure lead and 10% linotype, although sometimes I have to add some pure tin for castability. I generally end up with an alloy of 94/4/2 which gives me very good performance with cast bullets in either revolvers, pistols or rifles.

During my police career, I often mined the police pistol range backstop for lead. I never had it analyzed, but most of the projectiles that we fired in training were soft, swaged wadcutters or fairly soft cast SWCs, it was pretty soft stuff with little antimony or tin and usually needed some Sb and Sn added to the smelt to cast well and to raise its BHN.

As several have noted in posts previous to mine, it would help to find out the content of your smelted range lead by going to a junk yard that has an X-ray tester and determine the actual content of your range lead. It might be good to go as is, or you may need to alloy in more Pb, Sn or Sb to get it to a point where it is usable for the weapon and velocity levels you want to reach.

[TonyN]

My load is 4.0 at pressure at 30.000 and FPS at 1050

[TonyN]

I might buy a Lone wolf barrel to hope take care of the problem

[Larry Gibson]

TonyN

Being from an indoor or outdoor range is not helping. Do you know whether the bullet alloy recovered was from cast, jacketed or a combination? Knowing that will give us a better idea of its antimony and tin content so that we can better answer your question of;

"Is there any way to harden the lead to like 15 BHN without spending much money?"

Yes there are ways to harden your alloy without spending too much money. First we have to get an idea of what your alloy consists of. Please answer the questions and be specific.

What load are you using; powder type and charge? "4.0 at pressure at 30.000 and FPS at 1050" answers only half of that question but leaves out the important part.......what powder?

Do you have any Lee Liquid Alox, any NRA formula 50/50 lube or any White Label BAC lube?

If your load leaded in a Sig what makes you think getting a Lone Wolf barrel will solve the problem? The problem is in your load.

Larry Gibson

[243winxb]

Lyman - Heat Treatment of Cast Bullets to Harden Them
Q: Is there anything I can do to make the bullets harder?
A: Cast bullets can be heat treated to increase their hardness providing your alloy has some antimony present. To heat treat your bullets: Cast your bullets in the normal manner, saving several scrap bullets. Size your bullets but do not lubricate them. Place several scrap bullets on a pan in your oven at 450 degrees and increase the temperature until the bullets start to melt or slump. Be sure to use an accurate oven thermometer and a pan that will not be used again for food. Once the bullets start to melt or slump, back off the temperature about 5 to 10 degrees and slide in your first batch of good bullets. Leave these in the oven for a half hour. Remove the bullets from the oven and plunge them into cool water. Allow them to cool thoroughly. When you are ready to lubricate, install a sizing die .001" larger than the one used to initially size them. This will prevent the sides of the bullets from work-softening from contact with the sizing die. Next apply gas checks if required and lubricate. These are now ready for loading.

[murf205]

Is that Magma mold a beveled base mold? Never, and I mean never, had any luck with beveled base molds. Try a plain base boolit in the barrel of that Glock before you buy another barrel.

[Landshark9025]

I just skimmed the previous posts, but let me save you some time. I recover scrap from an outdoor range that is primarily factory. I've had two different batches tested with an XRF gun. One came back at .9% antimony and the other at .8%. I tried everything. Water dropping. Different lubes in my Star. Traditional lube with two coats of BLL, powder coating, Hi-tek, three different types of powder. And almost all combinations. I was never able to get the leading completely away. There would always be some in two or three grooves of my HK. HK uses polygonal rifling- but it is somewhat different than a Glock.

This worked. It has worked well, repeatedly. Yes, your alloy cost goes up. You're talking .50-.60/lb. But it works.

Take 45-48 lbs of your range scrap ingots and put them in your smelting pot.
Drop in one lb of tin (see if you can locate Butternutz here on the forum)
Then drop in one ingot of Super Hard from Rotometals.
Mix, pour into ingots.
Cast. Lube and size. I have found either Lars Carnuba Red, X-lox 2500+ or Ben's Red all work great. I often throw two coats of BLL on just for good measure. Helps to make them less "sticky".
Let age at least a week. One month is better.


I tried cutting this alloy with Range Scrap and tin 50/50 and it ceased to work as well. Start with the above one Super Hard ingot per 50lbs Range Scrap. You are still less than a penny a bullet.

[flyingrhino]

I've seen the same issue with 9mm. I found that just slowing them down solved my problem with leading. If they are being used for plinking there is no need to push the fast. My lead runs around 10 BHN. Powder coated or HiTek'd they don't lead at about 1000 fps or less. I load to 950-1000 fps.

[HP9MM]

My experience agrees with Dusty's experience. I cast range lead which is a mixture of jacketed and lead bullets. It comes out after a water drop at 10 and in about 2 to 3 weeks it is about 15. No problem with significant leading.

[fredj338]

Yes these where at max on hogdon site with titegroup . I used 125 grain RN and I use Magma molds.

The TG is part of the problem IMO, burns too hot, melts your lube.
I berm mine from outdoor ranges. Most of my lead comes in 10-11bhn air cooled. I shoot it in everything up to about 1100fps with no serious leading issues. Indoor range scrap is likely closer to pure lead as it is mostly 22lr & jacketed cores. Even water dropping won't harden it much, no antimony. You can buy some hardball or lino & mix it with the range scrap then water drop. It sounds like a sizing issue. Pull a bullet, after seating & measure it.

[Silverboolit]

I had the same problem as the OP. Ended up using a 9mm PTX die from LEE with the .38 S&W expander tube instead of the 9mm tube the die came with. The 9mm cartridge is tapered on the inside, and the S&W drop tube sizes the case further down to a larger diameter so it doesn't size the lead boolit. Also, you should be using a tapered crimp die, not a roll crimp on a 9mm as the 9mm headspaces on the mouth of the cartridge.

[Handloader109]

I have used range scrap and WW for my Glock g17, Walthers and my 1911s all in 9mm with no real issue. Now the WWs might harden up more, but it's mainly range scrap. I was sizing down to .356, lately moved up to .358 to eliminate some keyholeing. But no leading. I'd spend a bit on some linotype and drop a pound in your mix just to get it a bit harder. Also, I've moved to almost 100% powdercoating. That eliminates any issues with leading. At least in my opinion.

[Walks]

An after market barrel is the way to go. I have one for each of my GLOCKS: 9mm, .40 & .45acp. I get better accuracy & don't have to worry about the "Infamous GLOCK SMILE". The after market barrels are more accurate, have tighter chamber's & lands&grooves more conducive to cast bullets. My GLOCK 19 factory barrel will chamber an UNSIZED CASE with a .358 dia. 158gr RN bullet handseated in it. My WOLF barrel measures .356 across the grooves. It won't chamber a .357 dia. bullet seated & crimped in a sized case.
I also prefer LINOTYPE for all auto-loading handgun bullets. Softer bullets can & due jam during the feeding cycle.

[TonyN]

Larry all the lead is from Jacket bullets and no that song allow cast bullets in the indoor range

[Larry Gibson]

Larry all the lead is from Jacket bullets and no that song allow cast bullets in the indoor range

Great Tony, now we've got something to work with. Given the BHN of 10 you measured it at the alloy probably has 1% to, at best, 3% antimony and no tin. I suggest you try this first; add 2% tin. You can scrounge some as tin can be obtained in pewter, solder or by commercial suppliers. It may seem expensive but in reality not that much tin is needed for 2%.......3.2 ounces for 10 lbs of your alloy. with the 2% tin added cast some bullets (I suggest an alloy temp of 715 +/-) and water quench them. As soon as the sprue hardens cut it and drop the bullets into water as quickly as possible. Wait 48 hours and then BHN test. Also air cool some and wait 10 days to BHN test.

If the WQ'd bullets test out at 12 - 15 BHN you've probably got an alloy then of close to 96/2/2 to 94/3/2. Those should then work just fine in your 9mm. I use a similar 94/3/3 alloy and air cool the bullets for my 9mm. For my 9mm I mostly use the Lee 356-120-TC sized .357 and lubed with BAC over 4 gr Bullseye. Very accurate with no leading.

Larry Gibson

[flyingrhino]

Hey Tony. There is a lot of good advice up above. I'm going to list some things that I suggest, having had the same problem as you. My lead runs 10-11 BHN after casting and water dropping. It drops to about 9 after coating but with age comes up some. So I don't think hardness is really your problem, at least it isn't a problem with me.

I think sizing to 357 or 358 should be sufficient if you slugged at 356. I'm assuming that your coated boolits pass the wipe and smash test.

Titegroup is on the faster side for powders. On my chart it is #16. If you have anything slower I'd try it. I really like W231 for semi-auto pistols. It's #36 on my chart. Having said that though, I'm using ETR7 right now because I got it during the big powder shortage and it is said to be equivalent to TG. When that's gone I'm going back to W231.

1. Run your loads over a chrono if you haven't yet. Get a good velocity reading. Don't rely on what the load manual tells you for velocity. My loads run right around 950 fps and function well in my 1911's and my glock. If these are plinking loads you don't need anything more than what will reliably cycle your pistol. I recommend going down to the starting load, or just above it.

2. Seat a bullet in the case then pull it (don't crimp it). Mic it. If it's NOT the same diameter as before it went in the case then you have a swaging issue. Your expander needs to be addressed. If it has signs of shaving then your bell is not enough.

3. Seat and crimp a round then pull the bullet. Check as above. If it's not the same as before it was loaded then your crimp is the culprit. The crimp should be just enough to remove the bell.

4. If you've gone through the things above and they all check out then I'd look at the lead hardness. I don't alloy any of my lead and I don't have any problems so I really don't think the hardness is the problem. I've shot almost pure lead, BHN 7-8, PC'd without any significant leading. When I shoot I typically run 500-600 rounds down range. I will get SOME leading, but it is not much. Several hundred rounds usually shows no leading at all.

[psweigle]

Hey Tony. There is a lot of good advice up above. I'm going to list some things that I suggest, having had the same problem as you. My lead runs 10-11 BHN after casting and water dropping. It drops to about 9 after coating but with age comes up some. So I don't think hardness is really your problem, at least it isn't a problem with me.

I think sizing to 357 or 358 should be sufficient if you slugged at 356. I'm assuming that your coated boolits pass the wipe and smash test.

Titegroup is on the faster side for powders. On my chart it is #16. If you have anything slower I'd try it. I really like W231 for semi-auto pistols. It's #36 on my chart. Having said that though, I'm using ETR7 right now because I got it during the big powder shortage and it is said to be equivalent to TG. When that's gone I'm going back to W231.

1. Run your loads over a chrono if you haven't yet. Get a good velocity reading. Don't rely on what the load manual tells you for velocity. My loads run right around 950 fps and function well in my 1911's and my glock. If these are plinking loads you don't need anything more than what will reliably cycle your pistol. I recommend going down to the starting load, or just above it.

2. Seat a bullet in the case then pull it (don't crimp it). Mic it. If it's NOT the same diameter as before it went in the case then you have a swaging issue. Your expander needs to be addressed. If it has signs of shaving then your bell is not enough.

3. Seat and crimp a round then pull the bullet. Check as above. If it's not the same as before it was loaded then your crimp is the culprit. The crimp should be just enough to remove the bell.

4. If you've gone through the things above and they all check out then I'd look at the lead hardness. I don't alloy any of my lead and I don't have any problems so I really don't think the hardness is the problem. I've shot almost pure lead, BHN 7-8, PC'd without any significant leading. When I shoot I typically run 500-600 rounds down range. I will get SOME leading, but it is not much. Several hundred rounds usually shows no leading at all.
Very sound advice, and very well written.

[TonyN]

So where is the cheapest place to get Tin? Solder is good source correct? Like at a local hardware ?

[Landshark9025]

So where is the cheapest place to get Tin? Solder is good source correct? Like at a local hardware ?

Cheapest place is in the Swappin' and Sellin' board here. Cash outlay you can probably do better finding pewter at Salvation Army, Thrift Stores or yard sales- but then you have to drive around and hope to get lucky. It's a lot easier and faster to just get it here. You're probably going to balk when you see $10/lb. But remember, $20 will sweeten 100lbs of lead. Which is approx. 5,000 pistol bullets.

[TonyN]

I seen Harbor freight has solder. It's 96% Tin. I have a master caster that has a 40 lb pot. Please give me info on the break down on how much I need. Harbor Freight solder is 4.00 I think for there Solder. If you don't mind checking it out to let me know if it's good to use.
Here is the link: harborfreight.com/lead-free-rosin-core-solder-69378.html

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Tin:
If you are patient and lucky, you can find pewter items at thrift stores (beware of aluminum look-a-likes). I've been lucky, and found some at a local metals scrapper (they were unsure what it was and I got it for the price of Lead). But, If you want/need it right away, the best place would be in our swappin and sellin forum, it usually goes for $8 to $10 per lb there. Solder at Hardware stores is priced at retail, and can cost $20 to $30 per lb.

[BK7saum]

TonyN,
Have you addressed the as seated diameter and confirmed that the case is not sizing down the boolit to 0.356 or below. I still believe that is the major issue and that going to a 0.357 or 0.358 expander and not just a flaring die will solve most of your problems without having 5o worry about any alloy change or sourcing tin, lino, etc. If you have a set of 38/357 dies, try the expander from them, confirm its diameter is near what you need and give it a try.

Even with an alloy change, I still believe you will have to address the expander size. So I do not think you are saving yourself any steps by trying to modify your alloy before you get the expander problem corrected.

We do need to know the as seated and pulled diameter of the boolits before any more progress can be made. Also the micrometer measurement of your current expander and brand of die. A simple flaring die is really a no-go with heavy walled cases like the 9mm and cast bullets on the softer side.

[flyingrhino]

Adding Tin will help with mold fill out but I will bet you don't see any increase in hardness. Read this http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm. As I stated before, make sure the bullet is not being sized down in the loading process and slow them down a bit. I think you will solve your problem right there. If you still have problems after doing that THEN start playing with your alloy. With the type of leading you say you are having you've got a size problem. Before I started casting my own I purchased lead bullets from Georgia Arms. That is good, hard lead. I had the same problem with those in my 9mm. I had to slow them down and get the size right. If you want a cheap way to see if your alloy is the issue, get some clip on wheel weight lead. That is near perfect alloy. That water drops to about 15 BHN and age hardens.

As BK7saum stated above, simply flaring the 9mm case is not the best way to load these. You will do better with an expander. I use the Mr. Bulletfeeder expander. It is perfect for loading lead because it expands the case just a thousandth or so which helps the bullet slide in the case without being swaged down. There are others out there, that's just what I use. I've got his expanders for all calibers I reload. Like BK7saum suggested, try a 357 expander if you have one. PULL a bullet and check to see if it's being resized/damaged during loading.

[TonyN]

Yes I sized some last night at .358 and the Bell case mouth is at .388 so I used the roll crimp as that is what I have . I crimped it enough till it went into battery then stopped there. I pulled couple bullets and they where at .358 still. The ones I did at .357 didn't completely lead the barrel til I kept shooting. I'll start at the bottom end with a load and see where it's at.

[TonyN]

I was using WW but the Hi-Tel didn't like them even with me going thru the Zink ones. The first shot with .357 size had some leading in the lands and grooves and some of the barrel didn't. It started to smooth bore after that. The .356 smooth bored right away. If I eventually add tin to get to 15 BHN with Hi-Tek would I be able to get them up to max charge? Also would you think my Sig MPX would use .358 also? Or is Glock only one with high sizing barrels? I got leading also with it.

[dondiego]

Are you trying to make a certain power factor? Why do you need a maximum powered load for a 9 MM?

[TonyN]

I just like loads that are stout. I know heavy loads can hurt accuracy. I like to mimic my carry loads.

[BK7saum]

If you need stout loads, then your alloy won't get you there even with tin. Get some lino to harden up your alloy or straight wheel weight alloy to cast with. Tin would be a waste of time and money to add to what you have.

[Larry Gibson]

"If I eventually add tin to get to 15 BHN with Hi-Tek would I be able to get them up to max charge?"

It shouldn't be a problem with any normal 9mm load, even +P ones. I've been shooting COWWs + 2% tin in all sorts of 9mms, including glocks, since I got my 1st Browning HP in '70 and a S&W M39 in '71. I also shot thousands of them (mostly 356402s) sized .356 (lubed with Javelina) w/o any leading. Didn't learn that was all wrong 'til Gore invented the internet.........:killingpc

Larry Gibson

[TonyN]

What would be needed with Range lead to be able to shoot +P loads? I'll try to get this down before I get +P working.

Where is a good local place to buy Tin to add in?

[BK7saum]

Tin:
If you are patient and lucky, you can find pewter items at thrift stores (beware of aluminum look-a-likes). I've been lucky, and found some at a local metals scrapper (they were unsure what it was and I got it for the price of Lead). But, If you want/need it right away, the best place would be in our swappin and sellin forum, it usually goes for $8 to $10 per lb there. Solder at Hardware stores is priced at retail, and can cost $20 to $30 per lb.

Tin sources. Pewter would be cheapest. About $8/lb more or less.

[TonyN]

Solder? How far does a lb go?

[Grmps]

40lb lead x 16oz =640oz / 100 =6.4 oz ( 1%) x 2 = 12.8 oz tin for 40 lb lead
3.2 oz for 10lb of lead
so 1lb of tin will be 2% in 50lb of lead

[blackthorn]

Tin dose not contribute much (some but not much) to hardening an alloy. Antimony dose much more. That said, the percentage of tin should never go beyond the percentage of antimony, but antimony can exceed tin and still be effective. If you have not already done so, you should download the free book "From Ingot to Target". That book has a huge amount of information on all aspects of our hobby. Have a great day!

[Larry Gibson]

"Tin dose not contribute much (some but not much) to hardening an alloy."

I have to somewhat disagree......in a binary alloy I would agree. However, in a ternary alloy of lead, antimony and tin the tin combines with the antimony and forms a submetal SbSn or intermetallic compound. The SbSn strengthens the ternary alloy more than antimony or tin alone. If you read Marshall's "Metallurgy of Molten Metals" in Lyman's CBH #3 you may get an understanding. It's rather dry and technical but what it reveals is the reason adding 2% tin to current COWWs most often yields an AC'd BHN of 13 - 16.....basically the BHN equal of #2 alloy. It's because the 2+% of tin forms the submetal/inter metallic metal SbSn which goes into solution and stays in solution in the lead instead of separating out during solidification.

Let me note that if one wants the best quality bullets (based on weight and size uniformity) that are the most accurate I've not found any alloy that does better than #2 alloy, not even linotype. However, an alloy of 94 - 95% lead, 2 1/2 - 3 % antimony and 2 t0 2 1/2% tin (your basic COWW + 2% tin alloy) will do for probably 95+% of most cast bullet shooters needs.

Larry Gibson

[P Flados]

My son has a glock 17. I tried high & low to get it to shoot cast. I had NO LUCK AT ALL. I did lots of reading.

Some people can get the oddball glock rifling to work with cast, but only with very hard lead. I do not have any reliable source of hard lead unless I spend way more than I am willing. Rember that this is for high volume shooting out of a semiauto pistol.

For me and what I tried, powder coat worked best with my medium hardness lead. Other lubes were miserable. 110 gr and 125 gr were both similar in performance.

Low power loads shot good with no leading, but would not cycle the action.

Medium loads would cycle the action, but would start a slow buildup of lead.

More than medium load performed terrible. I think that they were "stripping out" and not getting the right spin. Many would hit the target with the bullet sideways.

I gave up and went shopping. Found a replacement barrel for $90 with free shipping at Combat Armory. One is on the way as I type. I will update when I get it.

[DocSavage]

I buy no 2 alloy from Rotometals myself but the other day while in Home Depot I looked at a 1 lb spool of plumbing solder 95% tin 5% antimony was $ 16 a 1 lb spool. Someday I'll get lucky and get the lead from the indoor range at my club when it's scheduled to be cleaned and try my hand at casting with scrap lead.

[blackthorn]

Thanks Larry for that explanation. Always learning.

[truckmsl]

Sometimes I think guys are overthinking cast bullets. Granted, some calibers are more adverse to cast than others, but I have great success with .40, .357, 45 acp, and 7.62x39 with range lead mined from the berms. Its usually about 50/50 commercial hard cast and jacketed lead. With the right bullet diameter and lube I do not experiece leading. Its also important to find the right powder as well. For example, i can run plain base cast 162 grainers through my .357 lever gun up to 1600 fps with no leading, but only if I use 296 powder. High vel rifle is a whole different thing though.

[TonyN]

well I shot Hi-Tek and my 10 BHN Range lead out of my glock 17 and 21. My 17 didn't last long and my 21 had leading but not very bad. I could still shoot. I put in my lone wolf in my glock as it lead some but not bad at all. My Sig MPX lead but I think it was more gray powder color. I ran a bore snake thru it and there was very little leading. I think I need 15 BHN.

I need info on how to get my 10BHN to 15 BHN

[ioon44]

I use lino type or foundry type added to my range scrap or COWW until I reach 15 BHN.

[Shingle]

I am far from a expert but had similar experience when I first started casting. I use the same lead as you with HY-TEC coating, solved issue by sizing to .356 on plain base and leading stopped. I know this goes against everything you have read. I use that size in 5 9mm Glock's and 5 AR9's and whats left of a camp carbine. I have not scrubbed lead out of a barrel since. Good luck.