Lee Pacesetter 7.62x54r Load info

[thirtythirty]

Hey, I'm gathering materials to start loading 7.62x54r. I bought a pacesetter die set for my 30-30 and it came with some handy staring loads for jacketed and cast bullets, however my 6.5x55 set only has info for jacketed. I'm wondering if anyone has the Lee pacesetter die in 7.62x54 and whether it came with cast load info? Unfortunately I can only mail order them right now so I can't check. Otherwise I'm thinking of just getting one of those Loadbook USA things. Thanks for your help!

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I have that Lee set, it's at least 15 years old, could be 25?
anyway, the Data just specs bullet weight ...no mention of jacketed, Lead, FN, or SP

I'd guess Lee offers cast boolit data for 30-30 due to the cartridge's history...and probably only offers jacketed data for 6.5x55 and 7.62x54R for same reason.

I'd strongly suggest getting the Lyman castbullet handbook #4, besides all the helpful chapters on "how to", the data is priceless, many with pressure listed.

[Cowboy_Dan]

Just checked mine, much newer than JonB's, and all the data is for J-words and the X bullet.

[thirtythirty]

Just checked mine, much newer than JonB's, and all the data is for J-words and the X bullet.

Thank you , thats very helpful. Is the Lyman manual the only one with cast info for the cartridge or are there others?

[mdi]

If your gonna shoot cast bullets, get a Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. Lots of data for the 7.62x54r...

I'm not at home to check my other manuals, but my Lyman 49th Edition has data for cast and jacketed. If I were on a budget, I'd get the Lyman 50th Edition first, then a manual from the bullet manufacturer of my choice (Hornady bullets Hornady manual, Speer bullets, Speer manual, etc.)...

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

there are other manuals with cast data.
the RCBS cast bullet manual
and
Lee's 2nd edition
are two I use also, but I always look in the Lyman castbullet handbooks first.

[Jniedbalski]

Larry Gibson had worked up some good loads on this forum. His light loads of 3.2 of bullseye in 308 ,30/06 and 7.62x54 with light lead pistol bullets work very good. At 25 and 50 yards they shoot as good as a target 22lr. I have been using factory 100 gr cast boolets .now I got two of the lee molds to try the 311 2r for my 308 and the tl 314 90 swc for for my 308 and the molsen and my enfield. I can cast them out of ww alloy mixed with pure. The few I have tried shoot really good. Every person I have let shoot this load are amazed at the non kick in the 308 like a big 22. They also are about the same noise as target 22 in a long barrel.

[tomme boy]

Be aware the expander in the Lee dies is for a 0.308" bullet

[thirtythirty]

Be aware the expander in the Lee dies is for a 0.308" bullet

A lee universal case expanding die should take care of that though?

[mdi]

Isn't the Lee "Universal Expanding Dies" just used for flaring the case mouth? The expander ball is what controls the neck tension...

[dragon813gt]

Isn't the Lee "Universal Expanding Dies" just used for flaring the case mouth? The expander ball is what controls the neck tension...

You're correct. They really need to change the name of the Univeral "Expanding" Die.

[thirtythirty]

there are other manuals with cast data.
the RCBS cast bullet manual
and
Lee's 2nd edition
are two I use also, but I always look in the Lyman castbullet handbooks first.

Does the Lee Manual have many good cast loads with 7.62, or would I be better off with the Lyman?

[thirtythirty]

Be aware the expander in the Lee dies is for a 0.308" bullet

What die set do you guys use for the round when using cast rounds then?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

The Lyman manual is the way to go.
I just checked the Lee for 7.62x54R, out of the 50+ loads, there was only 4 loads for cast (all Accurate brand powders). Lee doesn't create any load data, they gather it from others sources and compile it.

Dies:
My old Lee die set has two expanders (.308 and .311). I don't know if the set originally came with two or not? I bought this set used, at a gunshow. Anyway, if the Lee set you buy doesn't have a .311, you can order a .311 expander from Lee.

[tomme boy]

Call Lee and gripe at them for using the wrong expander. They sent me one from a 303 Brit. Plus I also use a RCBS neck expander to flare the mouth and expand to what I need. I had a friend that works in a tool and die house and he made me copies of the RCBS in 0.309", 0.310", 0.311", 0.312", and 0.313". They cover all of my 30 31 cal guns.

[GhostHawk]

Totally agree with Jonb. Some of the best money I ever spent was on the Lyman #3 and #4 manuals.

#3 because virtually every caliber has a good recipe for Red Dot powder and cast.

#4 because it has a lot more cast choices and some Lee molds covered. Not that I would not like to see more, a LOT more.

When I got mine I spent a few hours, put "tabs" in the correct places for the calibers I load. So in a few seconds for any of my normal calibers I can flip open the book and be looking at the data.

I do also collect data from the internet, but I also cross check that data against what is in the Lyman manuals. Anything that seems out of line, does not get added to my notes.

If your going to shoot cast, in more than 1 caliber, get the Lyman cast manual. Its worth it.

[mdi]

Does the Lee Manual have many good cast loads with 7.62, or would I be better off with the Lyman?

I have a Lee manual, but it's the last one I look at when researching loads. It's too "generic" for my uses. If I'm looking for a cast bullet load, I'll go with a Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook or one of the "Editions".

[MaryB]

Don't overlook "The Load" for the Mosin

"The Load" is 13 Grains of Red Dot"

By C.E. Harris, Revised 2-16-94

My success in economizing by using up leftover shotshell powder has changed my
approach to handloading. I had a caddy of Red Dot, and no longer reloaded
shotshells, so asked myself, "what can I do with it?" My shooting is now
mostly high-power rifle. I needed several hundred rounds a week to practice
offhand, reloading, and working the bolt in sitting and prone rapid, but didn't
want to burn out my barrel or my wallet. Powder used to be cheap, but today is
$20/lb. (or more), so cost is a factor in component choice.

I used to ignore pistol or shotgun powders in reduced rifle loads for the usual
reasons: the risk of accidental double-charges, fears of erratic ignition, and
concerns with maintaining accuracy, and reduced utility with a low-power load.
Still, the caddy of Red Dot kept "looking at me" from the corner. Would it
work? Looking at data in the RCBS Cast Bullet Manual No. 1 and the Lyman Cast
Bullet Handbook suggested it would, so I tried it, much to my delight! Red Dot
is bulky, compared to the usual rifle powders used in .30-'06-size cases. It
occupies more powder space in typical charges than common "reduced load" rifle
powders, such as #2400, IMR4227, IMR4198 or RL-7. The lower bulk density of Red
Dot adequately addresses my safety concerns because it makes an accidental
double charge far less likely.

After considerable experimentation, my friends and I found "The Load" IS 13
grains of Hercules Red Dot, in any FULL SIZED rifle case of .30 cal. or larger.
"The Load" has distinct advantages over more expensive alternatives, within
certain limitations, which are:

1. The case must be LARGER than the .300 Savage or .35 Remington.

2. The rifle must be of MODERN (post 1898) design, suitable for smokeless
powder, with a bore size of .30 cal. or larger.

3. The bullet weight must be within the NORMAL range for the given cartridge.

4. Inert fillers such as Dacron, kapok or are NOT RECOMMENDED! (Nor are they
necessary).

Within these restrictions I have now engraved in stone, "The Load" works! The
bullet may be either jacketed or cast. Gaschecked cast bullets required in the
.30 cals., otherwise you will get leading, but plainbased ones work fine in the
8mm Mauser or larger.

"The Load" has shown complete success in the .30-40 Krag, .303 British, 7.65
Argentine, .308 Win., 7.62x54R Russian, .30-'06, 8x57 and .45-70
(strong-actioned rifles such as the 1886 Winchester or 1895 Marlin -- 12 grs.
is maximum for 400 gr. bullets in the Trapdoor Springfield -- Ed.) Though I
have not tried it, I have no doubt that "The Load" would work well in other
cartridges fitting these parameters, such as the .35 Whelen, .358 Winchester,
.375 H&H or .444 Marlin, based on RCBS and Lyman published data.

"The Load" fills 50% or more of a .308 Win or .30-'06 case. The risk of an
accidental double charge is greatly reduced, because the blunder is immediately
obvious if you visually check, powder fill on EVERY CASE, as you should
whenever handloading! A bulky powder measures more uniformly, because normal
variation in the measured volume represents a smaller percentage of the charge
weight.

Red Dot's granulation is somewhat less coarse than other flake powders of
similar burning rate, such as 700-X, which aids metering. Its porous, uncoated
flakes are easily ignited with standard primers. So-called "magnum" primers do
no harm in cases larger than the .30-'06, but are neither necessary nor
recommended in smaller ones. I DO NOT recommend pistol primers in reduced rifle
loads, because weak primers may cause erratic ignition, and their thinner cups
can perforate more easily, causing gas leakage and risk of personal injury!

The velocities obtained with 13 grs. of Red Dot appear mild, but "The Load" is
no pipsqueak! In a case like the .308 or .30-'06, you get (from a 24" sporter
barrel) about 1450 f.p.s. with a 200- gr. cast bullet, 1500 with a 170-gr., or
1600 with a 150-gr. cast load. "The Load" is fully comparable to "yesterday's
deer rifle", the .32-40, and provides good expansion of cheap, soft alloys
(10-13 BHN) at woods ranges. Jacketed bullet velocities with "The Load" are
about 120-150 f.p.s. less than a lubricated lead bullet of the same weight.

Longer-barreled military rifles pick up a few feet per second, but "The Load"
starts to slow down in barrels over 28", such as the M91 Moisin-Nagant and long
Krags or 98a Mausers.

My preferred alloy in the .30 cals. is a mixture of 3-5 lbs. of .22 backstop
scrap to 1 lb. of salvaged linotype. Wheelweights also work well, as do soft
"Scheutzen" alloys such as 1:25 tin/lead. in bores of 8 mm or larger. "The
Load" drives soft- cast .30-cal. to 8 mm bullets fast enough to get expansion,
but without fragmenting. These out-penetrate factory .30-30 softpoints, and
kill medium game up to 150 lbs. well at short ranges up to 100 yards, when
placed accurately. In medium and large bores like the .375 H&H or .45-70, "The
Load" gives typical black powder ballistics for the bore. A 255-265 gr. cast
bullet in the .375 H&H approximates the .38-55 at 1330 f.p.s. Soft 300- 405-gr.
cast bullets are pushed at 1300-1350 f.p.s. from a 22" barrel .45-70, sporter
are very effective on deer at woods ranges. Cast bullets over .35 cal. do not
have to expand appreciably to work well on game if blunt and heavy for their
caliber.

The Load" works well with jacketed bullets, giving somewhat lower velocities
than with cast lead, due to less effective obturation and greater friction in
the bore. The 85-gr. or 100-gr. Hornady or 90-gr. Sierra JHP for the .32 H&R
Mag. revolver, or the Remington 100-gr. .32-20 softpoint bullet become mild,
but destructive varmint loads at 1600 f.p.s. from a .308 or '06.

If you substitute a stiffly jacketed 110-gr. .30 Carbine softpoint bullet,
designed for higher velocities than imparted by "The Load", you have a
non-destructive "coup de gras", small game or wild turkey load which shoots
close to your deer rifle's normal zero, but at 25 yards! A more accurate and
effective small game or varmint load uses a flat-nosed 150-gr. Page Ranking 170-gr.
.30-30 bullet instead. These don't expand at the 1400-1450 f.p.s. obtained
with "The Load", but their larger frontal area improves killing power compared
to roundnoses or spitzers.

I have use pulled GI .30 caliber Ball, and Match bullets with "The Load" for
cheap 200-yd. NMC boltgun practice. Accuracy is equal to arsenal loads, but I
use my 600-yard sight dope at 200 yards. I expect 5-6" ten-shot, iron-sight
groups at 200 yards using M2 or M80 pulled bullets and about 3-4" for the M72
or M118 Match bullets. I use these mostly in bolt-action rifles, but they can
be single-loaded for offhand or slow-fire practice ion the Garand as well.
These .30 cal. pulls shoot fine in the .303 British or 7.62x54 Russian, despite
their being a bit small, because the fast-burning Red Dot upsets them into the
deeper grooves. The 173-gr. Match .30 cal. boattail bullets may not shoot as
well at these low velocities as lighter flat bases in the 12" twist .308 Win.
barrels, but they do quite well in ten- inch twist barrels such as in the '06,
7.62 Russian, .303 British and 7.65 Argentine.

The longer bore time of these 1400 f.p.s. (typical 170-180-gr. jacketed load
velocity) practice loads makes errors in follow- through apparent, a great
practice and training aid. The light recoil and lower report of these loads
helps transition Junior tyro shooters from the .22 rimfire to the service rifle
without being intimidated by the noise and recoil.

Zeroing is no problem in the M1 or M14, because "The Load" shoots into the
ten-ring of the reduced SR target at 200 yards from your M1 or M14 rifle at
using your normal 600 yard sight dope! The somewhat greater wind deflection
blows you into the "8" ring at 200 yards with the same conditions you would
expect to do so at 600 yards with M118 Match ammunition. This provides your
Junior shooters some useful wind-doping practice.

The economy of a lighter charge is obvious. A full power .30-'06 load using 50
grs. of an IMR powder like 4064 costs 10 cents a pop, just for powder, at 140
rounds per pound (if you are lucky enough to find new powder for $14/lb.).
Substituting 13 grs. of Red Dot gets 538 rounds per pound at a cost of 2.6
cents which is a savings of over $7 per hundred rounds in powder alone! Greater
savings are possible if you get the best price and buy powder by the caddy.

Velocity and point of impact of "The Load" is not noticeably affected by
varying powder position in the case. I shoot them either slow fire, or clip-fed
and flipped through rapid-fire in the boltgun with equal accuracy. Red Dot is
very clean burning and is economical both on the basis of its lower charge
weight, and its lower basic cost per pound compared to other "rifle" powders.

Best of all, using a shotshell powder I already have reduces the kinds of
powder I keep and eliminates the need for a special "reduced load" powder. This
approach is ideal for rifle shooters who are also shotgunners, since almost
everybody who reloads for 12-ga. probably has a keg of Red Dot already!

I now realize it is foolish to use heavier charges of more expensive powder for
routine practice, varmint or small game loads in my center-fire rifles. I
seldom shoot at over 200 yards, and don't enjoy wearing out expensive target
barrels unnecessarily. Since I already have good sight dope and need to work
more on technique and save my remaining barrel accuracy life for matches.

I am glad I found the way to get alot more shooting for the dollar. Economical
powder choice IS possible, and my reloading has become less complicated and
more enjoyable simple since I realized I could do most of my rifle shooting
with 13 grains of Red Dot! "

[sghart3578]

For simplicity I have settled on 16.5 gr of 2400 and 13 gr of Red Dot in my son's Mosin.

This is under either the Lee C312-185 or the Lee CTL312-160, whatever I have the most of.

He happened to get one that slugs at .309-.310" so I gas check and size to .312". These loads are very accurate.

[GhostHawk]

Mary is of course quite correct. 13 gr of Red Dot works very very well in the Mosin.

I have gone as low as 10 with no issues. The russian beast can be tamed.

[thirtythirty]

Don't overlook "The Load" for the Mosin

(if you are lucky enough to find new powder for $14/lb.).
"

Haha. Try $50/lb. Thanks for the info though, that's very helpful.

[Ken in Iowa]

Haha. Try $50/lb. Thanks for the info though, that's very helpful.

I just bought Red Dot at $25/ pound.

[dondiego]

Promo is very similar to Red Dot and is cheaper!

[pcarpenter]

I'm in the "The Load" camp for all of my surplus rifles too. Some of these are older guns that already endured plenty of shooting and they have steel butt plates too. So, the light load thing is awesome both in terms of not stressing old guns and in terms of saving the shoulder and making them fun to shoot a lot more than I might otherwise. Also, with cast lead, the remaining rifling should last forever. The only down side is that the sight registration marks are not going to have anything to do with their prescribed yardages. In some cases you might even have to make a different front sight blade, but I've found that rare.

I also agree that there's no substitute for one (or better still, several) load data books if you want to load to higher velocities, but there are few that deal with cast lead in rifle calbiers, other than the Lyman manual. My general observation of load data that comes with dies, or the stuff on the front of some powder cans is that it's about as useful as the little "do not eat" silica packets are with a new pair of sneakers, meaning I generally just pitch it. I think the only reason Lee does that is that often it's a load for which you can use the little powder scoop they give you. Whether that is any sort of good load is probably up for debate.

I also agree that the Lee universal expander is not an expander at all but a case mouth flaring tool. Or, if overdone, it's great for ruining cases while it does nothing to expand the necks. What it is useful for is that you can replace the Lee tapered wedge inserts with some nifty neck expanding inserts you can get from NOE (Night Owl Enterprises)...a maker of great molds etc.. Swede Nelson, the proprietor, is a regular here on Castboolits. The expander inserts are designed for that same die body and are available in all sorts of combinations of diameters. By that I mean that they have a "step" turned into them so they expand the bulk of the neck at one diameter and the case mouth slightly larger, for starting a bullet. neat idea and I bough several to accommodate the "all over the place" bullet diameters needed for the surplus rifle calibers.
Paul

[thirtythirty]

I just bought Red Dot at $25/ pound.

Unfortunately I live in Canada. We are dealing with a pretty sucky economy right now and therefore all american imports are really expensive. The last time I bought Red Dot I think it was $37, and I think its more like $45 right now.

[thirtythirty]

I also agree that there's no substitute for one (or better still, several) load data books if you want to load to higher velocities, but there are few that deal with cast lead in rifle calbiers, other than the Lyman manual.
Paul

Thanks for the info. I actually just ordered the Lyman #4 cast boo lit manual, however I realized after the fact that it will probably not have the load I'm looking for. I am going to attempt to PP the Lee .309-170FN for the 7.62x54r. I'm thinking there will probably be more loads in the 150/180gr range? Can anyone confirm this? If so A) does anyone have a load for this Boolit they would be willing to share, or B)does anyone know of any resources I could look up. I think I've read that it is safe to use load info for a slightly lighter Boolit than is listed as the pressure will be lower. Would I maybe be able to use info for a 180gr Boolit for the 170gr?

Thanks again.

Oh, and if its helpful I'm planning on using IMR 3031 as its all I have on hand right now aside from Red Dot.

Edit: Realized this thread has taken a turn into a different topic. Will post this in the PP section.

[Cowboy_Dan]

There is no paper patch-specific data for 7.62x54mmR listed in the Lyman Cast #4, but I understand that you can use data for regular boolits for paper patching.

The manual lists data for the following boolits:

Saeco (Redding) #305 [180 gr in #2 alloy]
Lee C312-185-1R [185 gr. In 1:10 alloy]
Lyman 314299 [200 gr. In #2 alloy]

You should be able to use data for a boolit of (fairly) similar weight and (more importantly) similar seating depth to at least figure up starting loads. I, however, don't see 3031 loads in the #4 Cast Manual.

[Ken in Iowa]

Promo is very similar to Red Dot and is cheaper!

I don't believe Promo is as fluffy as the original Red Dot and therefore Alliant does not recommend it for metallic cartridges.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I don't believe Promo is as fluffy as the original Red Dot and therefore Alliant does not recommend it for metallic cartridges.
Where did you read that?

http://www.alliantpowder.com/products/powder/promo.aspx

on there website:

Principal Purpose: Light and standard 12 ga target loads.
Secondary Uses: Handgun loads

[swheeler]

I just looked at the data sheet sent with the dies and they list 125 and 180 grain cast data, dies are about 10 years old ?. I use a 303 Brit expander and a 31 cal M die. I recently put a scout mount scope on and have been shooting it quite regularly, it's coming around, 100yd 5 shot groups of just over MOA, shot 100 rounds first of this week.

[swheeler]

This isn't with Lee's data but is with their .312-185 mold that was lapped long time ago....... 202137

[swheeler]

OK I found where Lee's data supplied with their dies came from. Accurate loading manual #2, they actually list where bullets came from, Lyman 311467 for 180 lead, and Penny's 125 lead.

edit: the manual was published in 2000, so 17 years ago