Accuracy AR-15

[LUCKYDAWG13]

How accurate can an AR-15 be at zero out to 300 yards with a 16 inch barrel scoped would love to see some of your best targets I just want to know what my expectations should be also if you were going to build a strictly Target upper what barrel and components would you pick

[dragon813gt]

Well under MOA w/ the right barrel and trigger. I won't get into what to pick. The options are vast and everyone has their favorites.

[Scharfschuetze]

If you plan to shoot to 300 yards and farther, I'd consider a 20" barrel in order to maximise velocity to reduce trajectory and wind deflection. Most good ARs will, as stated above, do pretty well accuracy wise if well built with a quality barrel. I have shot the ARs as match rifles to 600 yards in NM competition with good results.

Accuracy enhancements you'll want to consider are:

A quality barrel that will handle heavy bullets for your projected range of 300 yards. At 300 yards you really won't need a super heavy 80 or 90 grain bullet and you'll probably want to load your rounds to magazine length so the ever popular Sierra 69 MK is a good choice and will stabilize in a 1 in 9" barrel. Rifles start to get wind sensitive at 300 yards so you might even consider a 1 in 8" twist for the 75 grain bullets or if you want to shoot very long ranges, a 1 in 7" twist for the 80 grain designs.

A steel or aluminum float tube is a good idea in order to have a free floating barrel that is not stressed due to sling pressure if you are shooting from the various positions.

If position shooting or for the utmost is rigidity, you'll want to equip your rifle with a solid stock that provides good integrity without the play that can be encountered with a collapsible stock.

I prefer a double stage trigger. These can be had or tuned to different weights of pull. As I shoot NM and CMP matches, mine have to meet the minimum pull weight of 4 1/2 pounds, just like the M1 and M14/M1A triggers. Other forms of competition have differing rules and of course if not shooting formally, then whatever you want that is safe. A good double stage trigger with a lightened hammer will reduce your lock time a bit and that's a help when shooting off hand.

Almost all ARs sold now have the flat top profile which is a good thing if you want to scope your rifle. Consider a hand guard that extends the Picitiny rail forward as that will give you more flexibility in mounting your scope.

Other than the barrel, my suggestions address the shooter to rifle meld for field shooting or match shooting.

My solution? For the new NRA and CMP rules for the NM course of fire, all of the above with a 1 in 8" twist barrel that will handle either of the Hornady 75 grain match bullet designs as well as the lighter SMK 69 grain bullet. The new rules allow for a scope up to 4.5 power so my NM rifle for this summer has the Leuopold variable of 1.5 to 4.0 power on it.

Here is my rifle, but with the action shooting upper installed. The NM upper for longer range shooting is below. Both barrels have the Wilde chamber and 1 in 8" twist so they shoot the same reloads without having to load specifically for each.

[dverna]

Great post Scarf

[308Jeff]

You two are already crushing the opinions of those who think AR's aren't sub-moa rifles. In my experience, they definitely are.

Shot my first couple of F-T/R 500 yard matches with my 16" 1:9 DPMS upper. Stock trigger, and shot the matches with a 3x9 Nikon, using the bullet drop reticle. :-o It managed to shoot in the mid-500s.

This was back in my early reloading days, but that upper would shoot .75 MOA at 100 yards with 68gr Hornadys and TAC, BL-C(2), or Varget.

I don't have nearly the experience that Scharf has, but his advice for a 20" 1:8 is rock solid, in my opinion, and exactly what I'd choose for my next upper.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

Thanks A lot for all the information and yes great post This is helping me a lot

[lefty o]

a well built AR will easily do under 3/4"@100 if fed decent ammo, and 1/2" guns arent uncommon. there are lots of AR's out there that arent very accurate, but its alot of how they are built, the quality of parts put in them, and ammo they are fed.

[Texas by God]

I never owned one until I shot a cousin's 5 years ago. A stock DPMS and factory ammo grouped in 1-1/4". I became a convert and assemble my own now. With hand loads my 16" .223 1-8" and my 16" 1-7" .300 Blk will both cut an inch at a hundred yards more often than not.
Best, Thomas.

[lead-1]

Back in the 90's when I shot a lot more and was a little more steady, I picked up a new Colt MT-HBAR, 20" barrel in 1-7 twist. With a 6x scope I could keep five shots inside a 1/2 inch group. I still have that rifle but couldn't tell you the last time it was shot.
It really liked the 60 grain Sierra Varminters but the 50 grain Hornady SX bullet would come apart.

[imashooter2]

300 is too far for me to walk to hang targets, but here are a couple 200 yard examples. Plenty more, but these are the only 2 I have scanned. The secret is finding a quality bullet that your gun likes. You aren't going to get 1/2 MOA with bulk FMJ.

http://www.imashooter2.com/pictures/200yd40BT-sm.jpg http://www.imashooter2.com/pictures/60vmax200.JPG

[Texas by God]

That answers that Imashooter. Great shooting! What's your rifle?

[LUCKYDAWG13]

Yes that's some good shooting what rifle are you using

[imashooter2]

The upper is a DPMS unit with the factory truck axle stainless barrel and free float tube. I put it on a DPMS A2 lower with the solid stock as recommended above. The cavity in the stock was filled with lead shot. Trigger is a JP old style, not the drop in. It wears a Burris Fullfield II 6.5-20x50 fine plex scope in a Rock River high riser mount.

Thanks for the compliments guys... The rifle is heavy for an AR. It rests on the bags pretty steady. :)

[Texas by God]

The FN15 I had would shoot like that after an accuwedge and a Rock River NM trigger were installed. With handloads of course.

[308Jeff]

The upper is a DPMS unit with the factory truck axle stainless barrel and free float tube. I put it on a DPMS A2 lower with the solid stock as recommended above. The cavity in the stock was filled with lead shot. Trigger is a JP old style, not the drop in. It wears a Burris Fullfield II 6.5-20x50 fine plex scope in a Rock River high riser mount.

Thanks for the compliments guys... The rifle is heavy for an AR. It rests on the bags pretty steady. :)

Sounds A LOT like my LR-308. I have bunch of plated 9mm bullets in the cavity of the stock, 2 stage Rock River trigger, and a 6.5-20X Vortex Viper on a Rock River mount.

Small world! LOL

[LUCKYDAWG13]

do you like the RRA 2 stage trigger

[308Jeff]

Yeah they're pretty nice. Have one in my Rock River AR-15 as well.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

Well I see that there on sale I may just have to pick one up I also loaded up some of the 69 gr
SMK with some Varget I'll see if this helps with my accuracy

[308Jeff]

Should be a big improvement over any Mil-Spec trigger.

FWIW, 68gr Hornady's shoot better out of mine than 69gr SMKs.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

Should be a big improvement over any Mil-Spec trigger.

FWIW, 68gr Hornady's shoot better out of mine than 69gr SMKs.

What powder are you using for the most part my load has been Hornady 55 gr cheap as i can find bulk bullets over 26.5 gr of CFE 223
I have just switched scopes from a fixed 4x Leupold to a 2x7 Redfield will see if this helps too

[imashooter2]

Here is another opinion... Two stage triggers have a place. They are a huge improvement over the standard mil spec units and really shine in competitions where the rules specify minimum overall pull weight. I have them in a couple of SD type rifles.

But for a pure target rifle, why would you intentionally put creep into your trigger? This is a spot for a single stage.

[308Jeff]

I have gotten by best results with TAC and BL-C(2). Also experimented with VARGET and Win 748. I'll look up my loads tonight.

[osteodoc08]

I've got a Stag Super Varminter and it's scary accurate. Well under 1 MOA if I do my part.

May I suggest a 20+ inch 1/8 or 1/7 twist and launch 68gr + for the longer range stuff.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

Thanks to all

[308Jeff]

Here is another opinion... Two stage triggers have a place. They are a huge improvement over the standard mil spec units and really shine in competitions where the rules specify minimum overall pull weight. I have them in a couple of SD type rifles.

But for a pure target rifle, why would you intentionally put creep into your trigger? This is a spot for a single stage.

You have far more shooting experience than me, so I'm sure you're absolutely correct. I picked up several RRA 2 Stage triggers for $65.00 each so that's what I ended up putting in my AR's that didn't already have a 2 Stage.

I have a single stage Timney in my Rem 700, but I've only had a chance to put 83 rounds through that rifle since the rebarrel and action work. I haven't had a chance to fire it since installing the Timney, but it sure did feel nice in my dry fire trials.

[Scharfschuetze]

An advantage to double stage triggers is that the initial take up of a few pound reduces the final break by the amount of the initial take up. Thus you get a final break for a 4.5 lb trigger with a felt weight of often less than three pounds, yet the trigger has a total pull weight of 4.5 pounds. That final stage, with a good quality trigger, is like breaking glass and will compare favorable with any single stage trigger. It's all about learning how to properly use a double stage trigger. When firing multiple rounds, just release the trigger enough to allow the disconnecter to click. That way you won't have to pull through the first stage and will basically enjoy a single stage trigger. It becomes muscle memory quickly. We called it trigger control with the M14 rifle in the Army.

As an aside, virtually all military bolt rifles and US Rifles through the M14 used a double stage trigger. If you learned to shoot with one of the old War Horses, then a double stage trigger in the AR rifles will make you feel right at home.

In addition to that, the hammer on most double stage triggers is lighter than the standard single stage hammers so you get a slightly faster lock time. While not too important if shooting from a bench or a bipod, it can often make the difference between a weak 10 and a wide 9 while shooting off hand at the 200 yard stage of the National Match course. It will also help when shooting at moving targets too. One of my heavy match AR15 rifles still has a very good single stage trigger, but its lock time is noticeably slower than the double stage triggers on my other ARs.

One issue with tuning factory single stage triggers is that the surface hardening of the sear surfaces is very shallow. It doesn't take too much stoning to cut through that surface hardness. When that happens, the trigger job does not last very long. After stoning these, it's a good idea to infuse the surfaces with a high carbon treatment with heat to re-harden them.

The trigger break is the final interface (popular term nowadays) between the shooter and his rifle. It is often much more important than a 1/2 MOA rifle and ammo capability in field conditions far away from a bench.

What ever trigger you choose, hold hard and good shooting.

[308Jeff]

LUCKYDAWG, here's the data and pics I dug up.

Lake City Brass, Remington 7-1/2 Primers, 68gr Hornady BTHP, 2.255" OAL.

I got my best results with 23.5gr of TAC, and 24.5gr of BL-C(2).

Rifle was a home built lower, DPMS 16" Bull Barrel Uppler.

5 shot groups, 100 yards.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

Thanks Jeff those are the kind of groups that I'm trying to get

[308Jeff]

You're welcome, sir.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

Well i got a chance to try some of my new loads Things are looking better with the new scope RedFeld 2x7 but the 68gr SMK did not shoot
any better then the 55gr FMJ a Quarter can cover my best 5 shot groups of ether load now with the 55gr bullets keeping tighter groups
on average at least now i know that the barrel can shoot and that a new trigger will help me out 196316 196317 the target not marked is 55gr hornady FMJ BT
with 26.5 gr of CFE 223

[308Jeff]

Looking good!

[imashooter2]

Well i got a chance to try some of my new loads Things are looking better with the new scope RedFeld 2x7 but the 68gr SMK did not shoot
any better then the 55gr FMJ a Quarter can cover my best 5 shot groups of ether load now with the 55gr bullets keeping tighter groups
on average at least now i know that the barrel can shoot and that a new trigger will help me out the target not marked is 55gr hornady FMJ BT
with 26.5 gr of CFE 223

FWIW, my 1:9 rifle will not group well with anything over 60 grains. Try some 60 grain V-MAX or one of the various 52 grain BTHP Match offerings.

[Lloyd Smale]

as accurate as 99 percent of the bolt guns ive owned. Ive got 4 556s and the worse shooting one will shoot 1.5 moa with ball and moa with a good handload. The best one, a pieced together gun with a colt lower, free floated forarm and a cheap model 1 stainless 16 inch 1 in 7 barrel. (still not a heavy barreled gun) will shoot 1/2 moa with its best load and I don't think its every shot a 5 shot group over an inch at a 100 and that's with a 4x acog on it not some high powered scope. Even my beo is moa with loads it likes. My 9mm isn't quite as good but just yesterday shot a 50 yard 25 shot group that measured a tad over an inch (would have been under an inch with the exception of one shot that was my fault) and that's with a vortex redot, not a scope. Ive only owned to that did shoot exceptionaly well. An old first generation Olympic that was a total *** if both function and accuracy and a bushmaster in 762x39 that was a 2moa gun all day long. Add to this that none of my ars are high dollar guns. I think the most ive paid is a grand for my stag. To be honest ive had a lot more crappy bolt actions that were challenging to get to shoot then I have ARs.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

FWIW, my 1:9 rifle will not group well with anything over 60 grains. Try some 60 grain V-MAX or one of the various 52 grain BTHP Match offerings.

I did pick up some Hornady Match 68gr BTHP to try out but I'm starting to think that my Rifle 1:9 twist just likes lighter bullets so i will pick up some other
bullets to try out I know that it's not a bench rifle and that it has a stock trigger in it but it's work in progress 196354

[Lloyd Smale]

You might want to give 60 grain vmaxs. That bullet is hands down the most accurate bullet across the board in my ars. 55 grain vmax and ballistic tip also do real well in my 1 in 9 twist guns.

[imashooter2]

The 68 grain Hornady BTHP Match have a slower ogive and are considerably longer than the 69 grain SMK. If the 69s didn't work, I wouldn't hold out great hope for the longer 68s. But since they are already bought...

As a humorous aside, my regular shooting partner has a 1:9 Savage bolt that won't shoot anything under 60 grains. Neither one of us wants to believe it and we are always giving each other partial boxes of the latest failed experiment. [smilie=l:

[LUCKYDAWG13]

I'm hoping that the CFE 223 powder will be the ticket with the hrrnady 68 bullets but I'm lucky enough to have a Cabela's nearby so I will run up and pick some 60 grain bullets up to test

[LUCKYDAWG13]

What I'm really thinking the turning point will be after I install a new trigger once I figure out which one to pick up

[308Jeff]

What I'm really thinking the turning point will be after I install a new trigger once I figure out which one to pick up

You're right. A trigger upgrade is going to make a difference.

There's lots of options out therel. All the way from the PSA Enhanced trigger to the 2 stage RR, and then on up to something really nice.

[imashooter2]

Geissele is having a Memorial Day weekend sale...

But I still think this is a spot for a single stage.

[Fishman]

This is a great thread! Scharf's trigger tutorial post is so informative, as are many others. I vote sticky.

I have little to add except that for general use, I really like the magpul adjustable stocks that incorporate a friction device that in my experience makes them as solid as a fixed stock. Anyone else use these, and are there any disadvantages to them compared to a fixed stock for competition?

[Tripplebeards]

My cloverleaf avatar is a group I fired this past January from my factory built POF P415 with a 14.5" barrel with their pinned brake that takes it to a legal 16" using 60g vmax and benchmark. Lake city brass and federal primers. If you want my exact load let me know and I'll post it. It chronied at 2850fps.
196491






196490 this pic is at two hundred yards with the last two rounds I had that day. It was -15 degrees with 20-30 mile per hour winds when I shot these groups and got frost bit in the process. My lead sled kept the rifle still enough though. I was heading out to Arizona on a predator hunt the next day and wanted to get my rifle sighted in. I was shooting .4" groups with the same load till I ditched the 4.5lb factory trigger and replaced it with a 3 lb timney. Didn't have a 300 yard range where I was at but I can tell you I dumped a few coyotes out to 450 like the hammer of Thor and left a couple 50 cent sized holes in and out of a few. I mounted a Nikon 3.5x14 pro staff 5 BDC recital scope on it with a larue quick detach scope mount. The spot on BDC program is spot on for calling the drops. I replaced the moe stock with cheek weld version they offer on their 308 models. It helps my eye line up with my scope and that's an old 20 round clip my uncle gave years ago he had from being in the service. This rifle is awesome but that factory brake will blow your ear drums out! I shot a few times at a running yote and the inside of my ear had blood in it. I ended up wearing ear plugs the rest of my trip while hunting with that thing. Ill be getting a tax stamp in the future to suppress it. I had one other AR years ago, a bushmaster targeter varminter, the first year they came out which if I recall was around 2000'. I could shoot a five shot group all in one little hole at a 100 yards but it kept failing to feed even after several different mags so I traded it for a Remington ltr 223 that will clover with about 10 different reloads I've cooked up.


196492196493

[LUCKYDAWG13]

you know I have 2# of Benchmark on my bench and I have know idea why I have never used it before maybe it's a sing so yes whats your load
and do you have a window for the load min/max

[Tripplebeards]

you know I have 2# of Benchmark on my bench and I have know idea why I have never used it before maybe it's a sing so yes whats your load
and do you have a window for the load min/max

The ltr, bushmaster, and POF clover leaves all came from using benchmark along with noslers BTs and Vmaxes. It's a magic powder for me.

I found my data... 60g Vmax,25g of benchmark, seating depth 2.260", federal AR match primers, and lake city brass.

I normally just go in my hornady or nosler book(which ever bullet I'm using) and work up loads starting at the minimum and load up 3-6 bullets in .2 grain increments all the way up to max. I do this in three our four different powders and then sit at the range a half a day trying them out. Eventually if me and my rifle is capable at least one of the loads alway clover for me....knock on wood. I learned years ago not to worry about how fast or slow the bullet going because if you can get it to group like this your not going to miss and just need to figure out your drops and practice. I have about fifteen rifles, a Thompson center omega muzzle loader, a Remington 7600, and even a savage 210 20 gauge that will shoot clovers when I can hold them steady enough.

If I remember I'm at 25.2 or 25.6g with a 40g nosler ballistic tip out of my ltr and was 25.4 or 25.5g with the same bullet in my bushmaster. Either way I think the 25g threshold in benchmark has been magic in my 5.56/223's.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

The ltr, bushmaster, and POF clover leaves all came from using benchmark along with noslers BTs and Vmaxes. It's a magic powder for me.

I found my data... 60g Vmax,25g of benchmark, seating depth 2.260", federal AR match primers, and lake city brass.

I normally just go in my hornady or nosler book(which ever bullet I'm using) and work up loads starting at the minimum and load up 3-6 bullets in .2 grain increments all the way up to max. I do this in three our four different powders and then sit at the range a half a day trying them out. Eventually if me and my rifle is capable at least one of the loads alway clover for me....knock on wood. I learned years ago not to worry about how fast or slow the bullet going because if you can get it to group like this your not going to miss and just need to figure out your drops and practice. I have about fifteen rifles, a Thompson center omega muzzle loader, a Remington 7600, and even a savage 210 20 gauge that will shoot clovers when I can hold them steady enough.


thank you I also have a T/C Omega it's outstanding rifle 196494 thats 3 250gr shock-waves over 150gr of Pyrodex @ 100 yards now if i can get my AR to shoot as good

[Tripplebeards]

thank you I also have a T/C Omega it's outstanding rifle 196494 thats 3 250gr shock-waves over 150gr of Pyrodex @ 100 yards

Lol...that use to be my most accurate rifle before I started getting into reloading about six months later. Mine will shoot .5" with your load and all go in the same hole with the 300g shockwave with 3 50g pellets of tripple 7. Same load through two of my buddies omega and encore shoot .5" and .8"...shot by me. The bullet blows through Whitetail like they haven't even been hit and they normally average about 60 yards before piling up. I won't change the bullet through because I know when I pull the trigger it's dead. I have mine set up to shoot 3.75" high at a hundred yards and have a Nikon monarch gold 2.5x10 BDC mounted on it. Did this back in the day when the BDC first came out so all you could do was read the direction in the box( and when everyone thought muzzle loaders were 100 yard guns). I called Nikon who helped me figure the drops. All circles are dead nuts to 350yards! I shot a 1 5/8" at two hundred, 4" at 250yds, 4" at 300 yds, and the last circle is 350 yards...which the groups opened up for me to 12"...6"from center all the way around. I set it up for elk hunting years ago. I think TCs black sabots are the trick. I've tried the hornady tail sabots that grouped 1.5" and the no tail hornadys grouped an inch. TCs 200g bullets 4" groups and the bonded around 2.5". Both of these had harder yellow sabots. I posted pics on predatormasters years ago of the groups.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

just thought i would update just pulled the Trigger on this http://www.larue.com/larue-tactical-mbt-2s-trigger

[imashooter2]

It will be a huge step up from the stock mil-spec unit. Be sure to let us know how things progress!

[LUCKYDAWG13]

That i will it will probably be a few weeks but i will also thought i would add this link if someone is looking for a new trigger some good deals out there
today https://gun.deals/category/gun-parts?caliber=1556

[Scharfschuetze]

Nicely done Luckydog. Let us know how you like it once it is installed.

[Tripplebeards]

I have dibs on the Dillo dust! I just ran out of my 2nd bottle. They sent me one with my mount and another with my dot sight ring attachment. The cAn openers are cool but I'm afraid to use n scratch them. I dont like 2 stage triggers so I went with a timney. If it's larue, it's as good as it's going to get.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

Ok what is dillo dust

[Tripplebeards]

Ok what is dillo dust

Larue gives you a free bottle with every order. It's meat rub/seasoning believe it or not. The stuff tastes awesome.

[lefty o]

dillo dust aint bad.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

new trigger and steak rub that's kewl

[CarlosKramer]

I have a rifle that will shoot 1 MOA all day long, it’s a .22lr Anschutz Match 54.The AR-15 system is well known as an “inherently accurate” system. It is possible to have a very accurate AR-15 that is not really expensive.

[Smoke4320]

Ok what is dillo dust

I am not EVEN going to type what I thought read

[LUCKYDAWG13]

I just got a email my trigger is on it's way
And LOL may have been thinking the same thing

[LUCKYDAWG13]

just thought that i would update well I put my new Larue trigger in just love it Wow is it nice I loaded up some
Hornady 68gr match with CFE 223 I may have found a load it likes this is at 100 yards 198831

[Tripplebeards]

just thought that i would update well I put my new Larue trigger in just love it Wow is it nice I loaded up some
Hornady 68gr match with CFE 223 I may have found a load it likes this is at 100 yards 198831

A good trigger makes all the difference in the world

[308Jeff]

A good trigger makes all the difference in the world

It sure does.

Tiny little groups are almost impossible with a nasty trigger.

[Smk SHoe]

I have a shilen, Bull match barrel ( .223 Wylde), Alexander arms side charging upper receiver, 3 Lb match trigger, Lapua Brass and Nosler 69 Grn custom comp bullets. Will keep under a inch at 300 yards ( usually under 3/4" ). Strickly a bench gun, heavy as He77. Usually shot of a cement table with a front rest and Bunny eared Sand bag Rear ( filled with #9 Shot). Also wears a fixed 36 Power Sightron.