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sydney
05-18-2017, 09:34 PM
Hi--within reason can I sub 4198 and use 4227 data for light loads ??
Looking to use powders I have on hand
Thanks Sydney

dh2
05-18-2017, 09:39 PM
no using data for one powder on another is any thing but a good idea. I do use both of them on cast boolits so the data may be out there if you look right

WALLNUTT
05-18-2017, 09:43 PM
4198 is a little "slower" than 4227. That's all I'm gonna say. But there should be plenty of written/tested data.

Whitespider
05-18-2017, 10:39 PM
You cannot "sub" one propellent for another... it doesn't work that way.

Using a propellent without published data is possible if you're willing to assume the risks... I've done it. However, I have only done so with propellents I had experience with in a variety of cartridges... and I was thoroughly familiar with the cartridge and firearm I was using it in. Choosing a starting load is a "best guess" (with a little prayer added) based on published starting loads of other propellants close in burning rate, and that you also have experience with. Working the load up requires extreme caution, attention, and awareness... you have nothing but your gut to go on. In many (most actually) of the applications that 4227 and 4198 are used, if you're seeing pressure signs, you are way, way, way over normal/safe levels.

With that said, 4227 and 4198 are not really that close in burning rate... and the distance between the two expands and contracts depending on the cartridge and/or pressure level. There are some applications where 4227 is used but 4198 would not be appropriate... and vice versa.

Please don't take what I have to say next in the wrong way...
What you're lookin' to do is what I would label as "advanced reloading"... and the question you're asking suggests (to me, anyway) you're likely not ready for that.

If you could give details on the cartridge(s) and boolit(s) you're looking to use 4198 with, someone here may be able to point you to published data, and maybe even share some experience/results.
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sydney
05-18-2017, 10:51 PM
Hi---looking to load light loads in a 30 06
I have cast bullets that weigh 150 and 200 grs
The 150 gr is a plain base and the 200 is a gascheck
1300 fps is the goal
I happened to have 4198 on hand
Thanks Sydney

dbarry1
05-18-2017, 11:10 PM
I'm with Whitespider in that this is advanced reloading. Going too low on some powders can get you detonation and that could be catastrophic. Hodgdon has some info on H4895 for reduced loads, but not sure I'd try it without published data.

Digital Dan
05-18-2017, 11:19 PM
Back in time I cooked up a wildcat, a variation of existing designs for a very specific purpose. No load data existed. Quickload was utilized to a degree, based on existing data base on an existing cartridge of the same caliber and bullet weight. My start loads were roughly 50-60% of what I anticipated for velocity at the end of the game. One primer brand and style, 12 powders, 5 shot groups. Depending on the powder type I used .2 grain increments, or .1 grain increments. It worked well with one exception and I have a number of functional and accurate loads at my disposal. The failure was one of the last powders I would have suspected, on increment #3, or .3 grains more than the start load. Pressure spike caused significant leading and was repeatable on 3 subsequent attempts with the range of charges.

If you're going to be a test pilot, take a parachute because there is no guarantee things will go as expected.

Bzcraig
05-19-2017, 12:18 AM
Not intending to be a jerk but........ selecting a powder because you 'have it' is a horrible reason and a recipe for disaster.

kungfustyle
05-19-2017, 12:53 AM
Get the Lyman cast handbook. Soft cover for only about $20. For 1300 fps Unique may be they way you want to go, but use published data.

earlmck
05-19-2017, 01:03 AM
Sydney, trying to do that light a load with 4198 is not what the powder is designed to do -- would be an awful low pressure load that might not be real reliable. What you are talking here is more in line with "The Load" -- or 10 grains of Red Dot. I have used 10 grains of Green Dot happily for light loads like this and it does well. Unique would also do the job with 10 grains and would give you pressures that while low are nicely within the range where the powder performs well. If you end up buying powder, Trailboss would be the perfect powder for your application: somewhere around 12 grains of Trailboss would get you the velocity you want and it is such a "puffy" powder it would fill your case over half way full.

Your 4198 would be a fine powder for getting that gas checked 200 grain bullet up around 1600 to 1800 fps where you would be able to find a good shooting load without too much trouble.

Whitespider
05-19-2017, 07:42 AM
sydney, 4198 is flat-out the wrong propellent for your application. At 1300 FPS pressures would be too low for 4198 to operate reliably... truthfully, I would even question the use of 4227.
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Kraschenbirn
05-19-2017, 01:16 PM
As been (repeatedly) stated, reducing powder charges below the recognized 'start' level is a bad idea...'specially in a case with as much volume as the '06. The 4198s, in either flavor, are among my 'go-to' powders for cast boolits but I can state from experience that extra-light charges in a .308 case don't work well at all...erratic velocities and 'dinner plate' group sizes at 100 yds...and I suspect those symptoms might be greatly magnified in an '06 case.

Bill

Blackwater
05-19-2017, 02:15 PM
Powders have differing rates of ignition, and burn at varied rates as pressures increase up toward maximum for a given load, so I'd NEVER use data for one powder for another, but might, if necessary, use a close alternative as a "guide" to base intelligent guesses on. Both those are extruded "progressive burning" powders, that are not too terribly different in shape from one another, except 4198 has longer grains. But I'm not sure what the nitroglycerine content of each one is, or even if those two powders are "double base" or single base (no nitro). Biggest consideration for very light loads is getting a good burn. Some powders just don't burn well at very low pressure levels. This is why the very fast powders, like Red Dot as a for instance, are generally used in the lightest or "gallery" loads. Slower powders generally don't burn well at minimum velocities, because being slower burning, they don't reach their peak pressures quickly enough to burn well or consistently.

Just how low are you talking about in velocity? There are degrees to almost everything in reloading, and the degree of velocity we are seeking is a big determinant of which powders burn best at that level.

MikeN
05-20-2017, 07:14 AM
The 2001 IMR Handloaders Guide for Smokeless Powders pages 47-51 lists a lot of reduced rifle caliber loads for IMR 4227 and 4198. It starts with the .17's and goes up through the .458,s. It is surprising in that it shows loads that you would never expect, such as in IMR 4831 in the .222 Remington. There are loads for 4227 and 4198 for most all calibers. I downloaded this as a pdf from somewhere, but I just did a serch and I couldn't find it. There are paper copies on eBay sometimes. I think that someone that is better at search that me should be able to find it. I think that the ones before this 1999 - 2000 and maybe more, have all of the same information. Want to shoot a 200 gr. bullet in your .338 Win Mag? 38 grains of IMR-4227 gives you 2300 fps according to this manual.