Auto repair advice....... So I can get to the range.

[frkelly74]

I have a 2004 Kia Sedona and am into replacing the timing belt on it. I have it apart but have not taken the belt loose. The vid I watched said to turn the engine over by hand till all the marks line up and that is where I am stuck. I need to get to the range and wonder if I can take the belt off and put the marks right ? This is the dual cam V6 3.5 engine and has been running so it seems strange that the timing marks would not line up with their marks. Any help will be appreciated.

[trails4u]

It doesn't really matter when you align the timing marks, just as long as you do when installing the new belt. I think most folks recommend doing it on the front end, primarily for ease and to insure you don't end up 180 out. You could absolutely remove the belt, and then turn the camshafts and crankshaft individually to re-time the engine.....just be careful to make sure you're at #1 TDC with the crank when reassembling.

[funnyjim014]

What I do is paint mark the belt and pullys. Mark the new belt by counting the teeth and triple checking it

[Bookworm]

Two things to remember.

First, the crank needs to rotate twice, to the camshaft single rotation.

Second, and more important. There is such a thing as an "interference engine". In that case, if the cam and piston are not in the correct relationship, the valves will hit the top of the piston, locking up the engine. Worst case, you try to force it, and damage something. All those somethings are expensive to repair.
I do not know if your engine is an interference engine or not. I would not recommend pulling the belt and trying to individually time the components until you know.

If it is not an interference engine, then you can absolutely pull the belt and time each shaft individually.

If it was a running engine, it will come around to TDC by leaving the belt installed and turning the crank.

[trails4u]

Two things to remember.

First, the crank needs to rotate twice, to the camshaft single rotation.

Second, and more important. There is such a thing as an "interference engine". In that case, if the cam and piston are not in the correct relationship, the valves will hit the top of the piston, locking up the engine. Worst case, you try to force it, and damage something. All those somethings are expensive to repair.
I do not know if your engine is an interference engine or not. I would not recommend pulling the belt and trying to individually time the components until you know.

If it is not an interference engine, then you can absolutely pull the belt and time each shaft individually.

If it was a running engine, it will come around to TDC by leaving the belt installed and turning the crank.

Excellent point about interference!!!!

[frkelly74]

It is an interference engine. So I have been turning the engine by hand. There does not seem to be any interference other than compression . I have gotten the cam marks ( all 4) all lined up to their marks on the head twice and both times the mark on the crank has ended up 5 teeth past the mark on the block. Rotating clockwise with w breaker bar. This makes me wonder if it was put together wrong at some other replacement.

[trails4u]

You wouldn't have interference unless the engine was so far out of time that a valve opened far enough to contact a piston. This won't happen when properly timed, only when something is mistimed, so in a place it isn't supposed to be at that given time.

5 teeth is quite a bit.......so surprising that the motor would run good being that far out of time. I know the computers can make up some....but that's quite a bit. Did it recently start running poorly? It is possible that it could have jumped time on the crank, but not so far that you would have crashed a valve.....

[trails4u]

http://www.kia-forums.com/kia-carnival-sedona-2002-2005/76554-timing-marks-not-aligned-need-help.html

Apparently you're not the first guy to have this happen....... Seems like the belt slipping is a possibility.

[Handloader109]

Dude, you'd better read the above closely! You might have bent some valves! Be careful!!!!!

[jcwit]

Yes, you have an interference engine!
Do it wrong and you likely will need a new engine, and for that old a vehicle???

[Bookworm]

Take the spark plugs out. That will take care of the compression, and make it easier to turn.

[abunaitoo]

http://i.fixya.net/uploads/images/5661b403-9377-4675-b0e2-b3d51e016b75.gif

[Bookworm]

Gotta love them twin-cam v6's.

Simplicity personified.

[abunaitoo]

If I were doing it, I would change....
Water pump
Tensioner
Tensioner pulley
Idle pulley
Camshaft seals
Crankshaft seal
Clean and inspect the cam and crank sensors.

[Traffer]

As someone said...pull the plugs out!!! you can spin it pretty easily when the plugs are out. Was it running really bad before you started the job? 5 teeth out on the valve timing will very likely burn the valves if you had run it long enough. You also should replace the water pump and tensioner as well as anything else that won't cost too much as long as you have it that far apart. O wouldn't bother with the seals unless it was leaking oil. Make 100% sure that you have the valve timing correct before you try to start it. As many have said, if the valves hit the pistons, the engine is practically a boat anchor.

[frkelly74]

All noted, and thank you. everything new but the cam shaft seals. I got the timing marks lined up just like the drawing abunaitoo posted and gently turned the engine and got a light clunk. So tomorrow I will take the belt off again and see what I can do. I may end up having it towed to a shop to get it timed properly. I have to say it is a real pain to get torn down. I was pretty sure that #1 was TDC but it must not have been. It was idling rough but seemed to go down the road well.

[jcren]

Remember there is 2 top dead centers. As mentioned, the crank turns 2-1 to the cams, so from what you desribed, I would rotate the crank 180 degrees and reinstall the belt and check for clearance.

[lylejb]

The thing you must consider is all the marks must align with the belt under tension. Slack in the belt will result in the cams being late, which makes it look like the crank is advanced. I suspect this is where the "5 teeth off" is coming from. The engine would not run being this far off. While setting up the belt, it must be taught from the crank, over the idler, across both cams on the front bank, across the water pump, and across both rear cams, all at the same time. Yeah it's kinda busy to keep everything lined up and tight at the same time, but that's what you have to do. As an aid, I've used small plastic clips or the metal binder clips to hold the belt to the can pullys as I pull the next into tension. Hope this helps.

[frkelly74]

I did find out something. What I thought was a timing mark on the crank was not the timing mark. My wise wife told me to sleep on it and see what morning would bring and that is what I did. In the bright morning sun it struck me how all the marks were a blue color , all but the mark on the crank which was white. I thought " why is that? " so I wiped the crank sprocket with a semi clean rag and there was a blue mark 5 teeth away from the white mark. Now all the marks are lined up properly, the belt is tight, and I am putting the rest of the engine back together. I have not attempted a start yet and will roll the engine over a few more times just to be sure there is no clunk. What an adventure!

[daniel lawecki]

Good job on your part haste makes waste. Never rush a job.

[Bookworm]

Several years ago, when I still did that sort of thing, myself and a friend were putting a clutch in a Freightliner. Out in the gravel driveway.....

The clutch was in, we were trying to stab the Fuller 9-speed back in. Them Fullers are big, and very heavy. We fought it for about 2 hours, using straps and prybars, that pig just would not go. I was ready to burn the truck to the ground.

My friend suggested a break, we went in and had lunch.

When we came out about 30 minutes later, that trans just slipped right into place.

Sometimes, just backing off for a bit helps more than anything.

Good work on that maintenance job. You probably saved several hundred dollars.

[frkelly74]

it lives

[trails4u]

excellent news!! Feels good, doesn't it!!

[leeggen]

Some engines have the auto timeing belt tensioner. If yours does then the oil pres. will push a hyd cylinder out to tighten the belt. If it does have one the the belt can be loose enough to cause the marks to be off on the crank hence the oil pres. is not pushing the tensioner out cause the engine is not running. Go with caution.
CD

[blackthorn]

Smart wife!!!!

[frkelly74]

So it is running smooth and doesn't have the metallic clattering noise it had before, which leads me to believe that there were bad bearings in some of the idlers or coolant pump. It is smoother at idle than it was which leads me to believe that it was slightly out of time on the back side of the engine. Those are very hard to see to line up. I used some white out and painted the groove across the sprocket so that it points right at the mark on the head. Then after getting the front half settled and under slight tension and clamped in place, at Crank and both sprocketts , I put a wrench on the first back sprocket and positioned it to the mark using a mirror to see the marks line up and held with a spring clamp. It was under some tension and did not want to stay positioned. The very back sprocket also had to be wrenched into position and Was pulling the opposite way so I used that tension to stabilize the the first sprocket. Then I used the mirror again to check alignment and Did some tooth to tooth adjustment with the wrench and clamped it again, just right. The tensioner back down by the crank was then installed and tightened snug. It also has a hydraulic tensioner so it can adjust itself as things heat and cool. You bolt it on and pull a pin and it takes over. Then there was getting coolant back into the engine, I ended up taking the top hose of the radiator off and propping it up and pouring a pint or so into the hose and waiting for it to settle in. eventually I got almost two gallons in and it started to run out of the other end of the pipe that I had disconnected the hose from so I reconnected the hose and stuck a screw driver in the joint at the top and put in another pint till it ran out the vent caused by the screw driver. I think it is truly full. I could do the job in about half the time now and there would be a whole lot less fumbling around.

[Geezer in NH]

I could do the job in about half the time now and there would be a whole lot less fumbling around.

Bwahahahahaha! Sorry that's funny trust me you will forget about all of it before "the next time" BTDT

Good job sticking with it till done. :bigsmyl2: