Thinning down Zinc contaminated Pb...?...

[OS OK]

I came across 120 Lbs. of Pb I thought was COWW's...as you can see, the ingots look fine...only problem is this, they are way too hard for WW's.
Assuming the extra hardness is from Zinc, Zn, alone...how much pure Pb would you mix with this 120 Lb. batch to bring the hardness down to an acceptable low pressure pistol Pb blend...say 14 BHN?

194477This is a picture of 12 of the 24 ingots that I've tested for BHN. ^ It looks fine to me, no cottage cheese Zn excess here.

I don't have any experience thinning down contaminated Zinc/Pb...are there any other problems I may incur doing this?

*I think I've heard that Pb can tolerate a 5% blend of Zn...but not sure if that is correct.
*I don't have any idea either of what %'age Zn represents in BHN numbers.

Any suggestions you fellas have will be greatly appreciated...charlie

[Traffer]

You should have it tested for content. There is a member here under the name BNE who will test it for you. He asks for 1# of lead in trade for each tested sample. I thought I had zinc contaminated lead also. He tested it and found it was just high in antimony and tin. (which is good). Then you may find someone within driving distance of where you are that will trade you for softer lead.


I came across 120 Lbs. of Pb I thought was COWW's...as you can see, the ingots look fine...only problem is this, they are way too hard for WW's.
Assuming the extra hardness is from Zinc, Zn, alone...how much pure Pb would you mix with this 120 Lb. batch to bring the hardness down to an acceptable low pressure pistol Pb blend...say 14 BHN?

194477This is a picture of 12 of the 24 ingots that I've tested for BHN. ^ It looks fine to me, no cottage cheese Zn excess here.

I don't have any experience thinning down contaminated Zinc/Pb...are there any other problems I may incur doing this?

*I think I've heard that Pb can tolerate a 5% blend of Zn...but not sure if that is correct.
*I don't have any idea either of what %'age Zn represents in BHN numbers.

Any suggestions you fellas have will be greatly appreciated...charlie

[454PB]

Maybe it's linotype, the ingots look nice and cleanly cast.

[OS OK]

I've already spoken with BNE about sending him samples. He kindly is going to oblige, his work load is heavy at the moment and doesn't have a lot of spare time.
I wanted to get done with the preliminary BHN samples to see if I needed to send multiple hardnesses to make sure.
All of the 24 samples average 20 BHN as a 'lot sample'. So I don't figure I'll need to send more than one or two samples for testing.

If it were high in Sb, Sn or if it were some type of Linotype I'd be tickled...I'd just set it aside to use to blend with for rifle casting...I'm fooling with the 8 x 57mm right now but have the .30/30, .30/06 & the .308W to do, the latter two I want to speed up a bit so hard is good.

The reason I'm assuming Zinc contamination is because the fella that smelted this batch thought he had used COWW's exclusively...I'm thinking a few, or a lot of Zn snuck into the pot.

[Dusty Bannister]

Is it possible that he used some type of cooling to speed up the ingot forming process? Quenching would get it quite a bit harder.

Not being able to examine the top of the ingot, I have to wonder if you filed it flat to be sure it did not give a false reading with the hardness tester. I know that you did not cast the ingots, but when I clean alloys, I use a large flat nosed bullet mold to cast sample ingots just for hardness testing. That way the sample is consistent and clean. I would suggest you test cast from one ingot and give it hardness tests every few days until your hardness levels out. Obviously, you have the hardness tester and it would only cost some time and then you would know if further testing is required or desirable.

[upnorthwis]

I would cast some up and shoot them to see if they are a problem. I'm thinking not.

[Freischütz]

Ibelieve I'd melt this stuff in a separate pot, see what the drosslooks like, and try casting a few bullets. If there's a contaminantI’d heat the metal just above lead’s melting point and then stirand skim to see how much contaminant would precipitate out.


Ithink there’s a thread here on decontaminating with sulfur. I’dtry things like that before throwing good metal into bad.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Zinc doesn't add that much hardness, maybe a point or two for COWW alloy with about 1% or 2%, any more Zinc than that, and you would have a devil of a time, even pouring ingots. Here are some Zinc contaminated COWW alloy.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?155778-my-first-Zinc-contamination-in-WW-smelting&highlight=
I concur with others, that you have linotype ingots.

[Traffer]

Ibelieve I'd melt this stuff in a separate pot, see what the drosslooks like, and try casting a few bullets. If there's a contaminantI’d heat the metal just above lead’s melting point and then stirand skim to see how much contaminant would precipitate out.


Ithink there’s a thread here on decontaminating with sulfur. I’dtry things like that before throwing good metal into bad.

Yes this is a great idea. You can tell if it is weird by the way it melts and the dross that comes up. I have tried using sulfur to smelt out zinc. There is either a thread on it or a lot of conversation on a thread. It turns out that the alloy I was trying to smelt zinc out of didn't have any in it. lol. You can also try putting muriatic acid on it. If it bubbles it has zinc.

[OS OK]

194496

Is it possible that he used some type of cooling to speed up the ingot forming process? Quenching would get it quite a bit harder.
I didn't ask whether he quenched or not...didn't even think of that because it wouldn't do any good to quench ingots because when they hit the cast pot they will come back to their normal hardness for the Pb blend you have. It could be that a dishonest smelter would try to pass WW's ingots for Lino by quenching but he would be found out in short order...nawh, he advertised COWW Pb, I don't think this figures into the question.

Not being able to examine the top of the ingot, I have to wonder if you filed it flat to be sure it did not give a false reading with the hardness tester. I know that you did not cast the ingots, but when I clean alloys, I use a large flat nosed bullet mold to cast sample ingots just for hardness testing.<(I can't test on a meplat, can't position the magnifying scope on the narrow meplat and focus it properly, I file the sides and test) That way the sample is consistent and clean. I would suggest you test cast from one ingot and give it hardness tests every few days until your hardness levels out. Obviously, you have the hardness tester and it would only cost some time and then you would know if further testing is required or desirable.
The tops of the ingots look as good as the bottoms just not as smooth as the bottom and side planes, as you see in the picture I test dimple on the bottoms of the ingots where it is smoother and more level than the top of the pour. The red is a Marks-A-Lot, it makes the dimple appear lighter in red color and very shiney and distinguishes it from the 'crater edge' of the dimple. Easy to get exact measurements with the LEE SCOPE.

These two ingots obviously came out of different muffin pans, see the radius on the bottom edge. The muffin pan on the right has a textured finish...don't mistake that for something wrong with the lead...for instance 'cottage cheeseing'.

[Taterhead]

By the way, if you need muriatic acid, go to a swimming pool supply store. So much of what is stocked at the hardware stores now is a "greener" type of product with a bunch of adjuncts. The stuff at the pool store is the real stuff. I use gallons of it every summer to balance ph in the pool.

[OS OK]

I would cast some up and shoot them to see if they are a problem. I'm thinking not.

I'll have to melt some of this Pb to get samples for BNE, he wants a specific size to test. I don't think this Pb blend will be a problem either with the fill out...but...I don't want a high %'age of Zn in the blend, I am afraid it will be too abrasive on the rifle bores...think about it...I have 120 Lbs. of this stuff. I want to thin it out as much as possible.

[OS OK]

Ibelieve I'd melt this stuff in a separate pot, see what the drosslooks like, and try casting a few bullets. If there's a contaminantI’d heat the metal just above lead’s melting point and then stirand skim to see how much contaminant would precipitate out.


Ithink there’s a thread here on decontaminating with sulfur. I’dtry things like that before throwing good metal into bad.

It doesn't look like I'll get around having to have this Pb XRF tested...I won't throw good Pb into the bad.
This is just a problem that I could get all 'twisted' over but I'm trying to use this mishap as a learning curve by fixing the problem. It's a win-win situation since the seller is bending over backwards to make it right.

[OS OK]

Zinc doesn't add that much hardness, maybe a point or two for COWW alloy with about 1% or 2%, any more Zinc than that, and you would have a devil of a time, even pouring ingots. Here are some Zinc contaminated COWW alloy.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?155778-my-first-Zinc-contamination-in-WW-smelting&highlight=
I concur with others, that you have linotype ingots.

Those examples are glaringly obvious...it ain't my situation. I think I can have up to 5% Zn in the mix, I'm not sure...I wish r5r would put his 2-cents in, I think he knows something about Zn.

It would be a great help if there was a formula about Zn and how it adds to BHN value...that way I could better back-engineer this mess using a formula like this one.



Estimated hardness calculated by Rotometals formula: Brinell =8.60 + ( 0.29 * %Tin ) + ( 0.92 * %Antimony )

Only difference is I'd use 5 BHN for the Pb value...more realistic.

[OS OK]

By the way, if you need muriatic acid, go to a swimming pool supply store. So much of what is stocked at the hardware stores now is a "greener" type of product with a bunch of adjuncts. The stuff at the pool store is the real stuff. I use gallons of it every summer to balance ph in the pool.

Thanks, it's been a while since I maintained a spa, I forgot about that. I'm going to get the XRF measurement done so I can depend on some calculations about this mix.

[RogerDat]

Seem to recall bangerjim did some testing and below 5% Zn wasn't un-castable. if these are all running with a BHN near linotype I would set one in a ladle and hit an edge with a propane torch. Not easy to mistake that lower melting and smoother flowing nature of lino for zinc.

Might be a case of I think I only cast those with.... when in fact he had something else but forgot about it. Sometimes I forget the composition of the block in my hand going across garage. If not marked when made it could be anything. Drain cleaner with muratic acid would rule in or rule out zinc. Don't have to keep a gallon jug around that way.

[OS OK]

Casting (Zinc Wheel Weights) Into INGOTS = BULLETS (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAeBpqHjxP8)
Casting 300 BLK. "ZINC" Bullets! Lead Alternative? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKbANoteg4k)

elvis ammo on YouTube did the Zn casting and believe it or not...they didn't come out half bad. They are just hard as can be! Hard as a '_____'s - heart'.
I think he said the 250 grain 300 Blackout cast would weigh 130 grains. The astonishing part is this...they measure 37 BHN as pure Zn!
This is one instance when you can't cut the sprue fast enough...otherwise you'll have to beat the heck out of the mold to cut those hard sprues.

[OS OK]

*If the XRF test comes back telling me that Zn is the contaminate...

Do you fellas think that using this old mixing cross would give me the correct ratio/weight of soft Pb to use to blend the 20 BHN down to say...15 BHN?

EXAMPLE of MIX CROSS . . . . . . . . . >194509
Applied like this....?

194510
Do these figures look correct?

[Bird]

OS OK. Melt the ingots in your pot. Take the temperature to 600 and hold it there.. If there is any zinc in the mix, you will see it on the top of the melt. Try casting a few at 700 to 720, and if the melt starts sticking to the sprue plate, then you know there is zinc in the mix. If you are using iron molds, the bullets will tend to stick in the mold if there is zinc.
I think you may have linotype lead.
Your figures look correct and will get you close to 15 bhn, but may come out slightly harder though.
If there is zinc in the mix, get most of it out before blending in the pure lead or you can still end up with casting problems. Do a search on my posts, and you will find out what happens if zinc is there.
Here is the thread to read. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?322312-Problem-with-alloy-mix

[JohnH]

I don't think it's zinc, I think it's linotype. I have some linotype pigs (25 pounds) I normally mix them at two parts lead to lone part linotype. This makes an alloy that is for practical purposes wheel weight. Linotype mixed one to one with lead gives you Lyman #2 alloy @15 BHN.

[BNE]

OK OK,

I'm now dying of curiosity!?! Just send me the samples!

[6622729]

I agree. That looks like Linotype to me. Maybe even water quenched. I don't think 5% zinc would offer that quality of a surface finish. I'd just cast some air cooled to check fill out, general castability and hardness. I think you're going to be fine. The XRF would be nice but not a must have.

[gpidaho]

I bought 60lbs. of the lead from the same offer. I'm not saying there may not have been a mix-up if the man moves a lot of lead. (maybe mixed up two shipments, lino and wheel weight) but my 60 lbs. casts beautifully, very clean and measured just a tic over 7 Saeco (12bhn) There is for sure NO zinc in my batch. I've contacted the seller and ask to be remembered when more is available. Gp

[OS OK]

OK OK,

I'm now dying of curiosity!?! Just send me the samples!

Hey BNE...I'm getting quite an education here!
Today I'll clean out the pot and make the sample 'coins' you requested and get them in the mail....thank you soooo Much for helping.

While this 'stuff' is in the pot I'll cast some different rounds to see how it reacts with differing molds, ie. Lee, Accurate and Lyman & pistol/rifle profiles...sorry, don't have a brass mould to throw in the mix. This oughta produce an interesting picture or two. I'm anxious to see if they will hammer smash or whether they frag, what they look like too....I should have this together this afternoon.

Bird...I'll bring this 'stuff' up to temp by setting the Lee pot on about 3 so the pot doesn't overshoot 600* F.

articbreeze...Regarding your sulfuring of 'Zinctified Pb'...You used 40 Lbs. in the pot and pulled off 4 lbs. 9 oz's of dross. That is 11.25% Zinc. That's an interesting thread but...I don't want to go the sulfur route for 120 lbs of 'mystryfied Pb' I have. I hope today will tell a story about percentages as I try to bring the temp up slowly and control it and skim off any oatmeal...we'll see.

gpidaho...please don't reveal who the seller is...I've seen threads like this go south with accusations and innuendo then all the fact finding and discovery get left behind and covered up with BS form a 'spitting contest'!

The 12 BHN was the reason I ordered the Pb too...that WW Pb is sorta the go to lead here that I use as a base for blending...of course that's outside of low velocity HP's.

[gpidaho]

I have NO interest in any bickering and as too revealing the seller it probably wouldn't be hard to figure out with out being an Apache tracker. I've nothing but good to say about the man and his product and am hoping I get lucky and my next batch tests 20+. Gp

[OS OK]

I have NO interest in any bickering and as too revealing the seller it probably wouldn't be hard to figure out with out being an Apache tracker. I've nothing but good to say about the man and his product and am hoping I get lucky and my next batch tests 20+. Gp

OK...thanks!

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

SNIP...

While this 'stuff' is in the pot I'll cast some different rounds to see how it reacts with differing molds, ie. Lee, Accurate and Lyman & pistol/rifle profiles.
Be sure to use a mold that you know the weight of the boolit it produces with COWW.
Because straight Lino will cast about 6% lighter.
So a 200gr boolit (COWW) will weigh about 188gr. with straight lino.

Also, if you have 2% or more Zinc in that alloy, you will probably have lots of issues with Dross (oatmealing).

[popper]

Like Tataerhead says, get some muriatic acid, Zn will fizz. If it doesn't pour 'stringy' shoot it.

[gwpercle]

I'm betting my 2 cents on some kind of type metal, the ingots just look too well formed .
And the rest of the story........

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Even though, I don't think it's zinc, here is some more info on Zinc, I did a test a couple years ago, test results in post #6

http://www.artfulbullet.com/index.php?threads/zinc-in-small-percentage-in-bullet-alloy.589/

[popper]

I've been doing some experiments with Zn alloy, it adds 10x compressive strength compared to Cu but it doesn't seem to add much 'hardness' in small amounts. It drops small from the mould, takes the beating at the base fine but can't take the 1:16 of a 40SW without stripping - it doesn't 'obturate' worth a darn. Cu keeps the malleability up but still need Sb to mix with the Cu for a good boolit.

[runfiverun]

Zinc doesn't work like copper.

but it surely won't hurt your barrel. [it would be a help if anything]
Zinc was a component in engine oil for years [ZDDP] and a darn good one to have in there.
the government had it removed because it would get in the catalytic converters and make them not work properly.
zinc will put down a layer on the steel that kind of looks like an alligator skin.

[earlmck]

I also got a batch of ingots from the same seller as OS OK, but mine "fingernail tested" the same as known good wheelweight metal. Today I emptied out the old pot and melted a batch of this new stuff. It melted at the pot setting I expect for wheelweights and cast just fine. I made a big pile of boolits using my 280 WFN .44 mold from LBT.

I had a few remaining that were cast many years ago from wheelweights I got for .05/lb in Nevada, clear back in the good old days before there was such a thing as a zinc wheelweight. These are lubed with LBT blue lube, and when I weighed 3 of them on the electronic scale they totalled 841 grains. Then I weighed 3 of the new bullets which haven't been lubed yet and they weighed 839 grains. I consider that identical and never would have guessed that they would be that close when comparing wheelweight metal from 30 years ago to wheelweight metal of today.

My ingots are cast up from beautiful clean wheelweight material. If OS OK ended up with Linotype by mistake I am envious, though certainly not disappointed. I am very happy with these ingots and will buy more if our friend produces another batch.

[OS OK]

I put exactly 5 lbs. of ingots in the pot and it all slumped into a pool of liquid at 575*F. and this picture below is all the dross that came off the 5 lbs. Under the dross was a mirror of silver.

194572
This is the first two pours from a 6 gang Lee .452 SWC TL @ 610*F.

194573
I followed up with a Lee 6 gang .358 158g. RNF, an old Ideal 323378 243g. and a .457 Lee 405g. RNF. They all weighed the same as I get from my WW's. (that is + or - 2 grains) but that spread is pretty common, nothing to note about weight.
You can see that they all hammered flat without any brittleness, just malleable metal.

Gee...now I'm having some doubts about this Pb having Zn in it...especially after seeing the minuscule amount of dross in the first picture.

194574
Then came the BHN test of the fresh casts...I could see that something was amiss...those dimples looked strangely familiar in size.
When I measured them and went to the chart to correlate the dimple diameter with their hardness...hmmm...what did I find?
11.8, 11.0, 11.0, 11.0 BHN...those numbers line up with the lineup in the picture. I fully expect to see them jump between 1 and 2 points in hardness as they age over 48 hours or so, that how it works.
But...all of these values go perfectly with wheel weights hardness...there is no mystery here...just like the seller said..."those are COWW."

This is the question that leaves me dumfounded..."Why do the ingots (24 samples) test so dang hard?" This I have never seen before.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

when I melt and clean/flux WW or scrap lead alloy and pour into ingots, I will set the hot ingot mold (with still molten metal in it) on a old bath towel that's well soaked with water, and I will get a Big Gush of steam...I re-wet the towel everytime. Maybe that is like water quenching boolits? maybe that is what the seller does?

I don't measure ingots, I have my reasons and I don't feel the need to go into a whole soliloquy as to why...mostly, I don't believe you can get good numbers in comparison with measuring the boolits you intend to shoot.

[OS OK]

I've been sitting here all afternoon wondering about this. Perhaps he pours his ingot tray then sets it out on the frozen ground or in the snow...gee, I'm perplexed...yesterday I thought I was doing something wrong with the Lee BHN tool so I went out and read the directions again...I dunnoh, I'm baffled.

I havent had anything like this happen before...I do measure all my homegrown ingots so I can stamp them. One will get the BHN number and a simple number/letter combination that all of the batch gets stamped with for future ID. In the future I can look at a glance to see what I have to blend together and what quantity is there too. I only have about 750 lbs. in stock so this system is manageable.
I actually use Bumpo's calculator and get very close results, a few times I've hit it on the button. Time will add to hardness from the time ingots are made but it only adds 1 to 2 points then after a year it will drop back a point. We can only be close, but...close with our Pb is fine, especially if you PC your cast.
The other thing is that the BHN doesn't tell us anything specific about Pb content...we can assume about content if we know the origin of the Pb.
It's not an exact science but you can look into any of my barrels and will not find lead. So...as they say around here...it works for me.

[runfiverun]

the seller probably got his pans hot and put them down on some wet rags.

[Grmps]

+1 on possibly quenching the pan to increase production rate like speed casting.

[Forrest r]

Don't know about the seller but I quench the ingots all the time. Doing this allows me to make 100+#'s of 1# ingots from a 4-cavity ingot mold in less than 10 minutes.

[44man]

You will see zinc, looks like a galvanized rain gutter. I have some pure contaminated with it. I do not know how, just lead cable sheathing. 600° and skim removes almost all.
I hate BHN readings to see what you have, must be a million alloys with the same numbers. You chase your tail trying to match BHN.

[OS OK]

It never occurred to me that someone would quench the ingots to increase production..."duuuh!"

Each time I pour my muffin molds they empty my little 50 lb. pot...it sorta goes in a complete cycle and I'm loading the pot again.

That's funny...of all the scenarios I've run through my mind about these danged ingots...that was never a consideration. You know, if we didn't have this forum to share ideas and concepts and all that...'We'd sure go down a lot of individual rabbit holes!'

[BK7saum]

I haven't checked BHN on my ingots, but I quench my ingot molds on a wet towel like JonB. I pour 8 lb ingots in 3" C channel molds and if I didn't quench, it would take a long time for them to harden. I bottom pour directly from the pot into the C channel mold on a wet towel. The mold solidifies within 20-30 seconds, then I slide the mold and wet towel to the side and place the next mold on the wet towel below the spout. While the current pour is solidifying, I can dump the first or set it aside for a few pours to further harden and cool. I have 8 C-channel molds and only use 5-6 at time. The pouring rate went up a lot and I started using less molds in my pour routine when I started quenching the molds on the wet towel.

I have had no issues from the tinsel fairy except pouring into a cool mold (rusty but relatively dry). If I forget to heat the ingot molds before the first pour, I sometimes have gotten a little pop as moisture in the rust flashes to steam beneath the lead. No issues with molds after the first pour. The C channel holds heat and any water vaporizes quickly from the molds. No water reaches the inside of the mold because the towel is wet. No free liquid to bubble or splash into the mold.

[44man]

I trust you will not get bad stuff from anyone here and you might get better.

[fecmech]

When casting ingots with my Lyman ingot mold I hold the mold with channel locks and dump it in a 5 gal. bucket for about 2 seconds to harden the ingots. I then dump them and refill the mold and repeat. You can see the water disappear from the mold immediately. I have done hundreds of ingots this way with no tinsel fairy visits. I would guess my ingots test harder than WW's.

[OS OK]

I haven't checked BHN on my ingots, but I quench my ingot molds on a wet towel like JonB. I pour 8 lb ingots in 3" C channel molds and if I didn't quench, it would take a long time for them to harden. I bottom pour directly from the pot into the C channel mold on a wet towel. The mold solidifies within 20-30 seconds, then I slide the mold and wet towel to the side and place the next mold on the wet towel below the spout. While the current pour is solidifying, I can dump the first or set it aside for a few pours to further harden and cool. I have 8 C-channel molds and only use 5-6 at time. The pouring rate went up a lot and I started using less molds in my pour routine when I started quenching the molds on the wet towel.

I have had no issues from the tinsel fairy except pouring into a cool mold (rusty but relatively dry). If I forget to heat the ingot molds before the first pour, I sometimes have gotten a little pop as moisture in the rust flashes to steam beneath the lead. No issues with molds after the first pour. The C channel holds heat and any water vaporizes quickly from the molds. No water reaches the inside of the mold because the towel is wet. No free liquid to bubble or splash into the mold.

Here you see my ingots cooling as I prepare another batch for the pot. This muffin tin uses all but 1/2' deep pool of Pb in the pot when I blend in 30 lb. batches. I am a small volume smelter and never considered heavier batches because I don't think that turkey fryer will stand more weight. That wimpy looking pot there will hold 50 lbs. of Pb but I've backed off considerably after reading about a fryer collapsing on a fella.
This is where I got to thinking that everyone must do this in a similar fashion...just never have thought about going high volume, never have been confronted with dealing with the cooling time. As my pot works on the next batch, I'll dump these ingots on the wood over behind the pot there.

[OS OK]

OS OK: Not being TOO down on you OS OK but a lot of scenarios ran through your mind well before these ingots were even cast into bullets. In common courtesy to the seller one should in my opinion ferret out any problems with the alloy before assuming that there is in fact some sort of contamination. This batch of WW alloy is in my opinion the cleanest best casting WW alloy I've purchased. It needed no tin or even so much as a flux to pour beautiful bullets. For a no worry, sure thing purchase you might consider Rotometals as a source of casting alloys. Gp

Common courtesy? I thought I was ferreting out the problem when I started this thread. My secondary problem to the hard ingots was assuming that someone selling wheel weights would naturally have a problem with Zn getting overlooked and slipping into the smelt...or worse yet, If they just thought they would control the pot temp and dip out the Zn's before they melted.
As far as courtesy goes...I made every attempt to keep the seller's name out of this thread as I had no malicious intent towards him...as I said earlier in this thread, "I'll use this as a learning experience and fix the problem...the seller has said he would do anything to make it right, even send pure Pb to blend it down."

Rotometals...I have considered and 'do' buy from them...notice the Lyman No.2 in this 30 lb. batch there?

[308Jeff]

This is one helluva awesome smelting pot. Where did you get something like that?

[RogerDat]

I see no harm no foul and a new situation one might run into when buying ingots is now known to many. You could get hard water quenched ingots, which come to think of it was brought up as why one might want to avoid buying Lino on ebay if it was in ingots. They might ring like a bell and be nothing but COWW's water quenched.

It is not unheard of for zinc WW's to get trapped against pot bottom under a pile of WW's in the pot and get hot enough to melt before enough lead melts to float them to the surface for skimming.

Why am I not surprised to hear that a seller here would offer to do whatever it takes to make it right. Seems to be sort of a common thread.

[OS OK]

I found that pot over at the Salvation Army along with my muffin moulds. Great place to shop for kitchen type stuff for casting.

I realize Zn's can be trapped and smelt in, but my first take was that the seller was cutting corners trying to rush his production or he was a newbie. When I checked his date on the avatar I saw that he has been here since 2009...In my mind and at that point I was sure there were no 'shenanigans' being pulled.

We see forum members constantly choosing the 'fast' methods of handloading/casting over proven but slower methods that produce 'best quality' in ammo accuracy and fit and finish of say...PC coatings. 'Quantity or Quality' seems to be the 'Y' in the road for us all.

[Grmps]

Harbor freight has a 12" Cast iron dutch oven for $29.99 https://www.harborfreight.com/catalogsearch/result/index/?p=3&q=cast+iron
Like OSOK and many others on this forum I frequent thrift stores for pewter and other materials and supplies mainly for casting and coating.

[popper]

IIRC, Lee says ingots don't measure the same BHN as boolits. When I want the 'best' boolits I use foundry alloy (pure,#2 & Superhard) to mix what I want. Isocore, good COWW, range scrap, Roto Sb/Pb are good for less 'perfect' boolits.

[DerekP Houston]

the seller probably got his pans hot and put them down on some wet rags.

I only have a single muffin mold to make my pucks with, I use the wet towel trick a lot.

[308Jeff]

I found that pot over at the Salvation Army along with my muffin moulds. Great place to shop for kitchen type stuff for casting.


Thank you, Sir.

[OS OK]

I only have a single muffin mold to make my pucks with, I use the wet towel trick a lot.

Well Derek...You know, you are a younger man than I...prolly a lot better looking too...don't have a tool shed to deal with...you can prolly run 2 or 3 apps. on the Puter at the same time, scratch somewhere and think about the upcoming weekend, all at the same time...well, that's admirable...it makes me wish I had not destroyed so many brain cells......"What were we talking about...Oh yeah..." It just took me a little longer, say 4 decades and a lustrum to catch on!

But...I'm with ya now! . . . :bigsmyl2:

[OS OK]

[QUOTE=308Jeff;4036534]Thank you, Sir.[/QUOT

You're welcome...ya know I've been looking everywhere for a lid for that pot...no success. Then last month I went up country to smelt for my mentor 'Ole Bob', 84 y.o., sharp old fart! He came out of the garage with this pot in his hand...said use this for a lid, It'll let you stack higher and still trap the heat.
"Duuhh!...I never thought of that Bob!'

194683

[BNE]

That is a good looking dog!

[OS OK]

My Co-Pilot...he sits up in the front seat of the truck like he was a little human.

[runfiverun]

till he see's a squirrel.
not Charlie.. okay maybe Charlie too.

[RogerDat]

Around here muffin tins are about $1 at thrift store, less than that at garage or estate sales. I will say test a single puck in any new pan. Every single new pan. Sometimes the material of the pan is something the lead will bond to like epoxy. Having filled 12 before finding out they won't come out is sort of a bummer, yes I speak from experience.

If you buy the dutch oven at harbor freight don't forget the 20% off coupon. Bring that price down by another $6

[OS OK]

till he see's a squirrel.
not Charlie.. okay maybe Charlie too.

Deer and Turkeys...Bub's trigger! Nobody is allowed to share his pasture, it's all his...no sharing BS. When he goes out at night to take a pee he makes a full circle of his entire domain making sure there aren't any deer trying to get a good nights sleep or God forbid they try to get near his plum tree during summer!
When the plums drop every year he thinks its his job to clean them up. The first year we got him the wife had to take him to the vet for constant diharea...wouldn't quit...eventually they figured out he was eating plums. He'll stand on his hind legs to reach the lower hanging fruit!

[Traffer]

The coating on the pans is zinc. I use those same pans but I smoke them first. Then the ingots fall right out. One smoking is good for as long as the pan lasts. OS OK: I have a pot similar to yours only smaller. I have another pot that fits on top just like your picture. hmmmmmm. Did you cut the legs off of your turkey burner? I bought a pot from a local farm store that is a Lodge melting pot. It only holds about 5lbs. I put a wooden handle on it. The cast iron handle has a convenient elongated hole that makes attaching a wooden handle easy. I use it for smelting smaller batches. When I first started casting I pouredto the mold right from that pot. It works just fine that way but arm gets tired after a while wielding a 2lb pot with 4lbs of lead in it. Here is a link to the pot I bought.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002CX9FE/ref=asc_df_B0002CX9FE4968062/?tag=hyprod-20&creative=394997&creativeASIN=B0002CX9FE&linkCode=df0&hvadid=167135614232&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=5614964924487398300&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9019191&hvtargid=pla-154925788810




Around here muffin tins are about $1 at thrift store, less than that at garage or estate sales. I will say test a single puck in any new pan. Every single new pan. Sometimes the material of the pan is something the lead will bond to like epoxy. Having filled 12 before finding out they won't come out is sort of a bummer, yes I speak from experience.

If you buy the dutch oven at harbor freight don't forget the 20% off coupon. Bring that price down by another $6

[OS OK]

That pot looks like something you might find in the old west, in some cowboys saddle bag. He sits around the campfire after supper with some cow-punching friends and they all get caught up on their reloads.

I forgot my piece of plywood I normally put on the saw horse that day so I just jammed the legs over the horse...it was pretty stable.

Oh, by the way...I gave some of that Pb I was so worried about a test drive today...see the pic.

194710

[David2011]

Been watching this since the beginning of the thread. Metal looked good; so do the results.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

those are some beautiful boolits

[OS OK]

Thanks JonB & David...kind words...BUT...truth is, I got this quality by 'accident'.
I was cleaning a used Lee .358 158g. RNF 6 gang mould that was not casting well, I soaked it fully immersed in a jar of acetone (it had some kind of black looking stuff burned in that looked like it came from something used for lube? Don't know what it was but it clung to the mould tenaciously!) It soaked for over an hour and periodically I'd pull it out and scrub with a toothbrush, at first it looked hopeless and in the end the light stains are still there...I gave up trying to make it look pristine and started casting.

From the acetone I blew it dry...no soap and water at all...then I put it on the hot plate to warm to about 400*F.

My first intention was to cast at as low a temp. as I could manage, just to see where the frosting and silvery look separates in regard to temp. I started at 650*F. and dropped the pot's temp. down to 560*F. (IIRC'ly, the pour spout would freeze up around 550*F. and I had to keep a torch handy so I just didn't go any lower, too much trouble unfreezing the spout)...never did find the correct magic number as I think the mould temp. has a lot to do with this effect.
Anyway, during the process I got distracted by trying to time the sprue cut so that I could get the best sprue cut (smooth and shiny without tear out from the base of the boolit) Believe it or not I was waiting somewhere around 7 - 10 seconds at these low pot temps.
This timing also gave the best results for mould release of the casts...all I did was lightly shake the mold, more like 'wiggle' it, I was trying to be careful not to drop onto other boolits in the catch pan and was at the same time trying to watch for that magic silver finish.
With the WW's I think maybe 1% addition of Sn might get that pretty look but the WW's certainly didn't need any help in mould fill out, these boolits cast pretty well.

[David2011]

Can't argue with results like that. Just curious though, are those temperatures from a verified thermometer or the guide on the pot? It seems odd that an alloy that hard would remain liquid at such low temperatures. My Pro-Melt gets spout freeze if I break my pace at a melt temperature of around 625-630, by the thermometer which has been tested in boiling water. I try to keep the melt around 675-710 depending on the alloy (no PID yet) and control the mold temperature by the pace of casting.

David

[OS OK]

Can't argue with results like that. Just curious though, are those temperatures from a verified thermometer or the guide on the pot? It seems odd that an alloy that hard would remain liquid at such low temperatures. My Pro-Melt gets spout freeze if I break my pace at a melt temperature of around 625-630, by the thermometer which has been tested in boiling water. I try to keep the melt around 675-710 depending on the alloy (no PID yet) and control the mold temperature by the pace of casting.

David

They are from my Dillon thermometer and it has been verified in boiling water...it's on, although it would be better if we had a method to verify them at their mid-range setting.

As far as the Lee pots go, they are prolly all different although close. Then there is the few that aren't even close...figger that one!
Over at . . . elvis ammo (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqq2Xh4H4VnMjZemwjTLW0w) . . . Lee 4/20 Melting Pot, Mastering The Temperature Dial (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4J4HBOPX7FM) . . . Lee 4/20 Pot Establishing "TEMP". Settings!! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bt2lZqXgq-w&t=2s)
He used a PID to see what the pot dial settings actually do...mine was within 25*F of his findings down in the 3 - 4 area, that's why I think most of our pots are prolly close but not the same.

This alloy (WW's) measured 11.0 - 11.8 BHN on cast day...I expect them to increase 1+ point in a couple days.